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[Lotion Soronarr]

KainD wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Trying to do good? 
Seriously, you're being obnoxious here.

Are you saying that every Christain then supports everything wrong the Church did? Because it really, REALLY sounds liek you are saying jsut such thing.

Well then, I declare that any mages actions are representative of the actions of a Cricle and mages everywhere as a whole. Therefore Anders blowing up the chantry makes all mages guilty by default.
I also say other mages helped Anders (his denial proves nothing) and the increased blood magic activity is all part of a mages uprising - and even if it isn't it proves jsut how unstable and corrupted the Circle has become. There's no telling who could be possesed and who isn't.
Therefore annuling the Circle is the only right choice.

Every christian answers for what their church is doing yes, but you can always see what christians actually reading the bible. And then you could easily tell if someone is not a christian, and acts wrong according to their own standards. 

Now if there is a serious flaw within bible teachings as a whole, then you can easily say that every person that says that they are christian accepts that flaw as their own and support it.

Understand me here? 

And for the love of God. Anders is not GUILTY, he did nothing wrong. It's like saying that the warden is guilty of stopping a blight. 

There is already a war comming, nothing is stopping it. 

..........

http://forum.hon.gar...=1&d=1341230977


Anders is guilty. Everything he did was wrong.
Anders is a SOB.
Anders must die.

[KainD]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't think genocide is the right course of action.

Sadly it is, because:

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Their way is the proper way, your way is the wrong way.
Your refusal to admit it is what is causing the war.

Both sides genuinely feel that they are right. 
One side is going to be oblitirated, it's just time to pick a side. 

[Shadow Fox]

Nice to see another thread turn into more templar/mage religous arguing/idiocy

[KainD]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Anders is guilty. Everything he did was wrong.
Anders is a SOB.
Anders must die.

Your opinion. Anders was my romance / friend in all my playthroughs. I fully support everything he has done. And he lives in all my playthroughs. 

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It can be argued that they are members of an organization that engages in slavery against mages across the continent, which means they aren't innocent. He blew up members of an organization that enslaved his people for almost a millennia. I don't think that is terrorism, especially when the objective is to emancipate mages from a reign of subjugation that has transpired for nearly a thousand years. 

Well, then I don't think imprisoning mages is a crime.

Neither does the Chantry nor the Order of Templars, which is why I think they should be overthrown.

[Vandicus]

KainD wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Anders is guilty. Everything he did was wrong.
Anders is a SOB.
Anders must die.

Your opinion. Anders was my romance / friend in all my playthroughs. I fully support everything he has done. And he lives in all my playthroughs. 

Ah, but you forget that Anders is an Andrastian and has no doubt prayed in a Chantry temple before. Additionally he was raised in a Chantry-run facility. Therefore he must answer for the crimes of the Chantry.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Members of the Chantry aren't civilians, which is the entire point. It's an organization with its own military and ties to different political factions. The treatment of the mages in the Circles of Magi has also been outright condemned as slavery. The point comes down to the fact that the members of the Chantry aren't civilians.

Members of the Chatnry aren't military.
I've yet to see a priest classified as non-civilian. Also, civilians are also considered to be members of the Chantry.

Also, I've yet to see proof no innocents died in the Chantr,y because everything poitns they did.

What their goals are is up for debate, of course. I'm sure Anders was trying to do good by choosing a course of action that could lead to the emancipation of mages across Thedas.

Well, I'm sure the templars were trying to do goo by annuling the Circle, which leads to the safety of kirkwall and people of TheDas.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Are you saying that every Christain then supports everything wrong the Church did? Because it really, REALLY sounds liek you are saying jsut such thing.

I don't think that the Chantry of Andraste can be equated with the modern day Christian Churches. It's disingenious of you to make such a claim.

I wasn't asking you. And yes, in this situation it can be equated.

Mages are men and women with magical abilities; members of the Chantry are members of an organization. It's not quite the same thing.

It is by my definition.
If you can define "right" and "wrong" however you want, so can I.

I don't think genocide is the right course of action.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 11 octobre 2012 - 07:13 .

[KainD]

Vandicus wrote...

Ah, but you forget that Anders is an Andrastian and has no doubt prayed in a Chantry temple before. Additionally he was raised in a Chantry-run facility. Therefore he must answer for the crimes of the Chantry.

Anders believes Andraste to be different than what the chantry teaches. He is not a part of the current chantry, and their political beliefs. 

[The Elder King]

LobselVith8 wrote...



No one is saying that members of the Chantry are inherently evil, but they are members of an organization that participates in vile conduct. The main point is that they aren't civilians, they are members of a politico-military organization that controls the lives of Circle mages across virtually all of Thedas.

First off, thanks for the explanation about the Chantry's situation. I forgot about the cutscene inside of the Chantry.
The Chantry is a politic organization, not a military one. They have a military branch, but the Kirkwall Chantry, as a location, is a political target, not a military one. The attack on a political target isn't necessary an act of war. It could be a terroristic act.
And in truth, Anders didn't even declare war to the Chantry with his action. He didn't rapresent the Circle (the major magical organization in Thedas). The Circle (as it was shown in Orsino's reaction) didn't want to engage war with the Chantry. I'd define Ander's act a terroristic one regardless if the Chantry is a civilian, political or military target.

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It can be argued that they are members of an organization that engages in slavery against mages across the continent, which means they aren't innocent. He blew up members of an organization that enslaved his people for almost a millennia. I don't think that is terrorism, especially when the objective is to emancipate mages from a reign of subjugation that has transpired for nearly a thousand years. 

Well, then I don't think imprisoning mages is a crime.

Neither does the Chantry nor the Order of Templars, which is why I think they should be overthrown.

*innocently brings up Tevinter*

[LobselVith8]

KainD wrote...

Both sides genuinely feel that they are right. 
One side is going to be oblitirated, it's just time to pick a side. 

Mages wouldn't be killing templars because they are religious, though; it would be self-defense against a military that thinks it has "dominion over mages by divine right." Which is why I oppose the Order of Templars.

[KainD]

LobselVith8 wrote...

KainD wrote...

Both sides genuinely feel that they are right. 
One side is going to be oblitirated, it's just time to pick a side. 

Mages wouldn't be killing templars because they are religious, though; it would be self-defense against a military that thinks it has "dominion over mages by divine right." Which is why I oppose the Order of Templars.

Well yeah, but that will still lead to genocide of one or the other. That was all I was saying. 

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

KainD wrote...

Both sides genuinely feel that they are right. 
One side is going to be oblitirated, it's just time to pick a side. 

Mages wouldn't be killing templars because they are religious, though; it would be self-defense against a military that thinks it has "dominion over mages by divine right." Which is why I oppose the Order of Templars.

*innocently brings up Tevinter*:whistle:

[LobselVith8]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Neither does the Chantry nor the Order of Templars, which is why I think they should be overthrown.

*innocently brings up Tevinter*[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]

They enslave mages along with non-mages in Tevinter; it's the Magisters who rule over them.

[The Elder King]

LobselVith8 wrote...

KainD wrote...

Both sides genuinely feel that they are right. 
One side is going to be oblitirated, it's just time to pick a side. 

Mages wouldn't be killing templars because they are religious, though; it would be self-defense against a military that thinks it has "dominion over mages by divine right." Which is why I oppose the Order of Templars.

If for example the templars will accept defeat, will you kill them?

[KainD]

hhh89 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

KainD wrote...

Both sides genuinely feel that they are right. 
One side is going to be oblitirated, it's just time to pick a side. 

Mages wouldn't be killing templars because they are religious, though; it would be self-defense against a military that thinks it has "dominion over mages by divine right." Which is why I oppose the Order of Templars.

If for example the templars will accept defeat, will you kill them?

Depends on what they do with their life. If they accept mage freedom then they are free to go. If not they are going to die. 

[Vandicus]

KainD wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Ah, but you forget that Anders is an Andrastian and has no doubt prayed in a Chantry temple before. Additionally he was raised in a Chantry-run facility. Therefore he must answer for the crimes of the Chantry.

Anders believes Andraste to be different than what the chantry teaches. He is not a part of the current chantry, and their political beliefs. 

So you maintain that he at no point in his life had the views taught by the Chantry? 

The idea of guilt by association is pretty silly here. I suppose you would've justified the killing of any member of the Democrat party in the Old South on the same basis?

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Members of the Chantry aren't civilians, which is the entire point. It's an organization with its own military and ties to different political factions. The treatment of the mages in the Circles of Magi has also been outright condemned as slavery. The point comes down to the fact that the members of the Chantry aren't civilians.

Members of the Chatnry aren't military.
I've yet to see a priest classified as non-civilian. Also, civilians are also considered to be members of the Chantry.

Also, I've yet to see proof no innocents died in the Chantr,y because everything poitns they did.

Grand Cleric Elthina is Meredith's superior in the Chantry, and being members of a politico-military means that the members of the Chantry aren't civilians (based on international humanitarian law).

Furthermore, we know that members of the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars perished in the Kirkwall Chantry; there's no evidence any civilians died in the building when it was closed off to the public at night.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

What their goals are is up for debate, of course. I'm sure Anders was trying to do good by choosing a course of action that could lead to the emancipation of mages across Thedas.

Well, I'm sure the templars were trying to do goo by annuling the Circle, which leads to the safety of kirkwall and people of TheDas.

Actually, Meredith called the Right of Annulment to appease a hypothetical mob.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't think that the Chantry of Andraste can be equated with the modern day Christian Churches. It's disingenious of you to make such a claim.

I wasn't asking you. And yes, in this situation it can be equated.

I was answering you, so my point stands. The Chantry of Andraste is a fictional religion subjugates mages in Chantry controlled Circles of Magi; it's not a real world religion.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Mages are men and women with magical abilities; members of the Chantry are members of an organization. It's not quite the same thing.

It is by my definition.
If you can define "right" and "wrong" however you want, so can I.

By definition, killing mages for being mages is genocide.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't think genocide is the right course of action.

I still don't think genocide against mages for being mages is the right course of action.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It can be argued that they are members of an organization that engages in slavery against mages across the continent, which means they aren't innocent. He blew up members of an organization that enslaved his people for almost a millennia. I don't think that is terrorism, especially when the objective is to emancipate mages from a reign of subjugation that has transpired for nearly a thousand years. 

Well, then I don't think imprisoning mages is a crime.

Neither does the Chantry nor the Order of Templars, which is why I think they should be overthrown.

The irony.

The Templars must be overthrown because they are commiting a lesser evil (imprisoning mages) to prevent a greater evil (mages runnign amok, abominations, chaos).
Yet you condemn them.
And at the same time you venerate a crazy, possesed mage who does the exact same thing (commits evil to prevent what he sees as a bigger evil).

The only place for mages is in the Circles.
Any responsible and rational mage would see it as such.

Hence, every mage that resists is not concerned with the benefit of the populace and hunting him down is justified.

[KainD]

Vandicus wrote...

So you maintain that he at no point in his life had the views taught by the Chantry? 

The idea of guilt by association is pretty silly here. I suppose you would've justified the killing of any member of the Democrat party in the Old South on the same basis?

Sorry, I am not an american, I have no idea what democrat party has to do with old south....

But if old Anders was in the chantry he would deserve his fate. But he rejected it. 

It actually get's very confusing at this point, because you can always find some elaborate loopholes. But the thing is, it is all for the greater good by the end ofthe day, and that is what really matters. This conflict really has to be taken care of for Thedas to advance further. 

[Vandicus]

KainD wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

So you maintain that he at no point in his life had the views taught by the Chantry? 

The idea of guilt by association is pretty silly here. I suppose you would've justified the killing of any member of the Democrat party in the Old South on the same basis?

Sorry, I am not an american, I have no idea what democrat party has to do with old south....

But if old Anders was in the chantry he would deserve his fate. But he rejected it. 

It actually get's very confusing at this point, because you can always find some elaborate loopholes. But the thing is, it is all for the greater good by the end ofthe day, and that is what really matters. This conflict really has to be taken care of for Thedas to advance further. 

The Democrat party in the Old South was "pro-slavery" as we put it today. In other words the members of the political party were members of a political entity that had a pro-slavery platform. By your argument(membership=guilt by association), the death of every member of that political party would be entirely justified(which would've been hundreds of thousands of people/civilians).

[KainD]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Templars must be overthrown because they are commiting a lesser evil (imprisoning mages) to prevent a greater evil (mages runnign amok, abominations, chaos).
Yet you condemn them.

That is so wrong. Templars are doing more evil than good. There would be a lot less abominations and chaos if there were no circles. 

[LobselVith8]

hhh89 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

No one is saying that members of the Chantry are inherently evil, but they are members of an organization that participates in vile conduct. The main point is that they aren't civilians, they are members of a politico-military organization that controls the lives of Circle mages across virtually all of Thedas.

First off, thanks for the explanation about the Chantry's situation. I forgot about the cutscene inside of the Chantry.
The Chantry is a politic organization, not a military one. They have a military branch, but the Kirkwall Chantry, as a location, is a political target, not a military one. The attack on a political target isn't necessary an act of war. It could be a terroristic act.
And in truth, Anders didn't even declare war to the Chantry with his action. He didn't rapresent the Circle (the major magical organization in Thedas). The Circle (as it was shown in Orsino's reaction) didn't want to engage war with the Chantry. I'd define Ander's act a terroristic one regardless if the Chantry is a civilian, political or military target.

It seems like Anders wanted to start a conflict between mages and templars with his actions, as he felt there could be no realistic compromise between the two sides. Also, the Circle of Magi answers to the Chantry of Andraste (as the Circle is subservient to them), as the mage protagonist can address to Alistair that the Circle will do whatever the Chantry demands them to do.

hhh89 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

KainD wrote...

Both sides genuinely feel that they are right. 
One side is going to be oblitirated, it's just time to pick a side. 

Mages wouldn't be killing templars because they are religious, though; it would be self-defense against a military that thinks it has "dominion over mages by divine right." Which is why I oppose the Order of Templars.

If for example the templars will accept defeat, will you kill them?

Personally, I wouldn't kill them if they surrendered.

[KainD]

Vandicus wrote...

The Democrat party in the Old South was "pro-slavery" as we put it today. In other words the members of the political party were members of a political entity that had a pro-slavery platform. By your argument(membership=guilt by association), the death of every member of that political party would be entirely justified(which would've been hundreds of thousands of people/civilians).

Yes. If the slaves started a rebelion and killed them all, I would totally not condemn them. 
See.. you can also look for other solutions, maybe it can be fixed a lot more peacefully. But if there is no other way, then yes. Slavery has to go, that is the priority. I personally don't see any peaceful ways for mages to be free in Dragon age. 

[Xilizhra]

hhh89 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

KainD wrote...

Both sides genuinely feel that they are right. 
One side is going to be oblitirated, it's just time to pick a side. 

Mages wouldn't be killing templars because they are religious, though; it would be self-defense against a military that thinks it has "dominion over mages by divine right." Which is why I oppose the Order of Templars.

If for example the templars will accept defeat, will you kill them?

If they surrender and disband, further combat will not be necessary. Though some may need to be imprisoned.