2177 réponses à ce sujet

[septembervirgin]

Yes, but what about mabari with blood magic powers!

[Conduit0]

The general problem I see with the idea of having consequences(in this case all negative) for choosing blood magic, is that in general, most gamers are going to actively avoid negative choices. Most people don't want to feel like they're intentionally gimping them selves by making a specific choice, and when you consider the unholy s***storm that would come down if NPCs reacted properly to the PC being a blood mage, only the most masochistic of players would be willing to go down that road. Which would mean in order to balance it out and make being a blood mage appealing, blood magic would have to be game breakingly overpowered in compensation.

Thats not to say I don't like the idea of being a blood mage having some consequences, I just think that ultimately, those consequences would have to be kept fairly minor, to keep the game balanced.

[Shadow Fox]

sunnydxmen wrote...

The corruption of blood magic is a slow porcess. the more use it the more corrupt and more likely to go insane an be evil you become, so merrill could still turn evil if she keep using it.

I see Blood Magic as being in the same vein as Necromancy from WOW an inherently dark power that while it can be used for good it will ultimately corrupt the user.

[Lithuasil]

Conduit0 wrote...

The general problem I see with the idea of having consequences(in this case all negative) for choosing blood magic, is that in general, most gamers are going to actively avoid negative choices. Most people don't want to feel like they're intentionally gimping them selves by making a specific choice, and when you consider the unholy s***storm that would come down if NPCs reacted properly to the PC being a blood mage, only the most masochistic of players would be willing to go down that road. Which would mean in order to balance it out and make being a blood mage appealing, blood magic would have to be game breakingly overpowered in compensation.

Thats not to say I don't like the idea of being a blood mage having some consequences, I just think that ultimately, those consequences would have to be kept fairly minor, to keep the game balanced.

Essentially, making anything like this work, requires the devs to ditch the linear balance that usually comes with stat-based or mmo-like combat.
If a fighter has to deal the same kind of damage a mage does, with different animations, then yes most people wouldn't do that. But if (purely fictional numbers) a fighter could pull 300 Dps, but fight whereever she likes, a mage could pull 600 (or 100 meleeing), at the cost of paying attention to who to show that you're a mage, and a bloodmage could pull 900, at the cost of having to mindwipe/threaten/kill almost every person that sees yuo do it, things are kinda different. It becomes a choice - like how in Vampires: Bloodlines, there was a clan with better stats then the others, at the cost of being so monstrous, you had to travel everywhere by sewer because it was impossible to pass as a human.

[Bigdoser]

blood magic does not = the dark side of the force it does not corrupt you blood magic is simply using your life force instead of mana.

[garrusfan1]

Eh I personally thought the blood Mage specialization suckes

[Cultist]

holdenagincourt wrote...
Well...at the cost of Marethari sacrificing her own life to prevent Merrill from being possessed by a pride demon, and of her clan ostracizing her to the point of killing her on sight if she returns.

But yeah, she didn't become an abomination.

Yet.

Nope. Marethari sacrificed herself to prevent Merrill from repairing the Eluvian, not to prevent her possession. So she followed her own agenda and brought it on herself and her clan.

Bigdoser wrote...

blood magic does not = the dark side of
the force it does not corrupt you blood magic is simply using your life
force instead of mana.

It is feared because with Blood Magic people can control other people's minds.

[themageguy]

I'd like to see blood Mage
Spirit healer/ battle Mage
Keeper (if elves are a playable race)/ shapeshifter

[LobselVith8]

TheJediSaint wrote...

The main issue with Blood Magic is that it offers great power for people willing to take a terrible risk.  That in an of itself is not evil, but evil people tend not to be concerned about the consequences of their actions.  As such, that would probably help explain why a good blood mage is about as common as a white rhino.

I doubt good blood mages are rare. Some apostates turn to blood magic because templars can nullify their magic otherwise. I'd also consider the Grey Warden mages who use blood magic to defeat the darkspawn to be good.

[Barbantious]

Well before you start getting criticized for being a blood mage, it would be nice if you actually had powerful blood mage abilities, like summoning demons, not....whatever the blood mage skill tree is currently....

[LobselVith8]

Auintus wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

You two do  remember Blood Magic first came from demons right?

Actually, if I remember right, it originally came from Dumat.

There are conflicting accounts, so both versions are out there; it's even believed by some scholars that the Arlathan elves taught humanity blood magic.

[Dave of Canada]

Darth Death wrote...

I was told blood magic wasn't evil or bad or whatever. If that's true, then there's no need for consequence.

It's still extremely powerful (summoning demons, raising dead, mind control, ect), causing great fear amongst civilians and distrust among your peers. That and power attracts powerful demons which want to possess you, that's another thing which might not help.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 30 septembre 2012 - 09:32 .

[LobselVith8]

Bigdoser wrote...

blood magic does not = the dark side of the force it does not corrupt you blood magic is simply using your life force instead of mana.

Yeah, I agree; it depends on how you use blood magic. It's not inherently evil. For mages who want to survive against templars - who can nullify their magical abilities with their templar abilities - blood magic is the only form of magic they can't nullify. "Some whisper that the Order's relentless hunt has driven good intended apostates to blood magic in their desperation to survive and keep their freedom." 

Some mages use it because they see it as the only truly free school of magic: "The effects can be vile, but this specialization isn't limited to madmen and monsters. Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it's tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons."

[ChaplainTappman]

The thing about blood mages and demonic possession works like this:

Think of a mage like a flame, and demons like moths. Every flame attracts moths, but there's a kind of scaling. A small, dim candle wouldn't attract moths in great number, nor would it attract particularly large moths. The brighter the flame, the more and bigger the moths attracted to it. So it goes with mages and demons. The more powerful the mage, the more and more powerful the demons attracted to him/her.

Now, when it's a mage's natural talent, the demons are within scale for that mage to resist them. But blood magic (and lyrium, but since the Chantry controls it so tightly it's not really germaine to the discussion) amplifies a mage's power beyond the norm, so that mage is bound to attract more an more powerful demons. In the timeframe we're experiencing life in Thedas in, who's most likely to use blood magic? Untrained apprentices. Weak mages backed into a corner by the templars. In other words, people who are already susceptible to possession. They turn to blood magic and it's like pouring gasoline on a fire. Suddenly, demons far more powerful than the mage can face are attacking them, tempting them, and eventually possessing them.

But look at what happens when a naturally powerful mage uses blood magic. Merrill, Malcolm Hawke, Morrigan, Alain. Used by sufficiently knowledgable and powerful mages, blood magic poses an increased but manageable risk. And if you as a mage can manage that risk, then you're no more of a risk to the outside world.

[Xilizhra]

holdenagincourt wrote...

franciscoamell wrote...

sunnydxmen wrote...

It does come at a price da2 showed it turns all mages who use it enventually to go insane an be evil.

Merrill turns out fine.

Well...at the cost of Marethari sacrificing her own life to prevent Merrill from being possessed by a pride demon, and of her clan ostracizing her to the point of killing her on sight if she returns.

But yeah, she didn't become an abomination.

Yet.

Marethari was a murderous traitor to both Merrill and the clan in general, and the clan consisted of equally murderous idiots. This is no fault against Merrill.

Anyway, while I appreciate greater effort to make the specs distinctive, if there's actually a "singular" spec that makes combining blood magic and spirit healing impossible, I'm going to be highly annoyed. There's no logical reason that they should conflict.

[Auintus]

Conduit0 wrote...

The general problem I see with the idea of having consequences(in this case all negative) for choosing blood magic, is that in general, most gamers are going to actively avoid negative choices. Most people don't want to feel like they're intentionally gimping them selves by making a specific choice, and when you consider the unholy s***storm that would come down if NPCs reacted properly to the PC being a blood mage, only the most masochistic of players would be willing to go down that road. Which would mean in order to balance it out and make being a blood mage appealing, blood magic would have to be game breakingly overpowered in compensation.

Thats not to say I don't like the idea of being a blood mage having some consequences, I just think that ultimately, those consequences would have to be kept fairly minor, to keep the game balanced.

I think there should be some factions that attack you on sight, while others would be willing to let you prove your intentions, and trust you afterwards. It should revolve mostly around the issue of trust.
"Jowan's Intention," a bugged quest from DA:O shows Jowan actively using magic, not sure if it's blood, to defend a group of travelers, if you make him leave at Redcliffe. The travelers side with him when they think you are a threat to him, proof enough that they trust him, despite all he had done.

[Auintus]

Lithuasil wrote...

Essentially, making anything like this work, requires the devs to ditch the linear balance that usually comes with stat-based or mmo-like combat.
If a fighter has to deal the same kind of damage a mage does, with different animations, then yes most people wouldn't do that. But if (purely fictional numbers) a fighter could pull 300 Dps, but fight whereever she likes, a mage could pull 600 (or 100 meleeing), at the cost of paying attention to who to show that you're a mage, and a bloodmage could pull 900, at the cost of having to mindwipe/threaten/kill almost every person that sees yuo do it, things are kinda different. It becomes a choice - like how in Vampires: Bloodlines, there was a clan with better stats then the others, at the cost of being so monstrous, you had to travel everywhere by sewer because it was impossible to pass as a human.

This is going off-topic a bit, but I had an idea related to that.
If you spec as an arcane warrior, assuming it returns, you could fight at near-full potential without being marked as a mage.

[Gervaise]

Whatever they do with blood magic, it should be consistent. In DAO (basic game not Awakening) the only way you could learn blood magic was by doing a deal with the demon, specifically the price was Connor's soul. To enter the Fade using Jowan's blood magic required a blood sacrifice, Isolde, because the magic was way beyond what Jowan should have been able to achieve on his own - Irving needed himself and several other mages plus lyrium to achieve the same result. There was a definite connection between powerful blood magic and the sacrifice of other's life force rather than your own and the suggestion that demons were the source of knowledge about the use of the magic.

In DA2 when Merrill first uses the blood magic there is the suggestion that Hawke as a mage, and Anders if present, actually see some manifestation of a demon that is assisting the spell. The codex also suggests the use of blood magic runs an inherent risk of attracting demons and possesion. However, mages seem to fall prey to possession very easily in DA2 whether they are consorting with demons or not. It always seemed ridiculous that Fenris and Ander could give Merrill such a hard time about her use of blood magic and yet seem totally unaware that Hawke was doing the same.

So I feel that if the PC is openly using blood magic and companions have been shown to have strong feelings about this, they should at least be shown to challenge the PC about it, even if the PC then is able to successfully explain and justify their use of it. Also, it might present the opportunity to explore exactly what the mechanics are for blood magic? Can you just learn it from a book or does it have to come from another blood mage or demon? Is the driving force simply the blood or is this a way of attracting a demon that they provide the power for the spell? Clarification of these issues would then go some way to establishing if the prejudice against blood magic is just Chantry propaganda, which those brought up under the Circle system will have been influenced by, or if there is some deeper reason for the mistrust.

I would note that both Wynne, Anders and Rhys (in Asunder) are all spirit mediums and all have severe objections to blood magic. Spirits and demons do not get on and lesser spirits will fly in the face of powerful demons. It is the spirit inside Wynne who defeats the powerful demon in Asunder, not Wynne herself. Therefore, it seems that unless blood magic is totally divorced from its previous connection to demons, it is only approrpriate that you cannot be both a blood mage and a spirit healer.

[Josh3598]

Gervaise wrote...

Whatever they do with blood magic, it should be consistent. In DAO (basic game not Awakening) the only way you could learn blood magic was by doing a deal with the demon, specifically the price was Connor's soul. To enter the Fade using Jowan's blood magic required a blood sacrifice, Isolde, because the magic was way beyond what Jowan should have been able to achieve on his own - Irving needed himself and several other mages plus lyrium to achieve the same result. There was a definite connection between powerful blood magic and the sacrifice of other's life force rather than your own and the suggestion that demons were the source of knowledge about the use of the magic.

Actually, you are able to intimidate the demon into teaching you Blood Magic AND leaving Connor alone. I think you needed max persuasion though.

Modifié par Josh3598, 30 septembre 2012 - 03:22 .

[Xilizhra]

Whatever they do with blood magic, it should be consistent. In DAO (basic game not Awakening) the only way you could learn blood magic was by doing a deal with the demon, specifically the price was Connor's soul. To enter the Fade using Jowan's blood magic required a blood sacrifice, Isolde, because the magic was way beyond what Jowan should have been able to achieve on his own - Irving needed himself and several other mages plus lyrium to achieve the same result. There was a definite connection between powerful blood magic and the sacrifice of other's life force rather than your own and the suggestion that demons were the source of knowledge about the use of the magic.

Others' life force was only sacrificed when one's own was insufficient. Merrill was quite an accomplished blood mage, but never used anyone else's life force for anything. Also, it's more or less confirmed that Jowan learned it from the books Irving later removed.

I would note that both Wynne, Anders and Rhys (in Asunder) are all spirit mediums and all have severe objections to blood magic. Spirits and demons do not get on and lesser spirits will fly in the face of powerful demons. It is the spirit inside Wynne who defeats the powerful demon in Asunder, not Wynne herself. Therefore, it seems that unless blood magic is totally divorced from its previous connection to demons, it is only approrpriate that you cannot be both a blood mage and a spirit healer.

Anders is able to become a blood mage in Awakening, and unlike Wynne, actually acknowledges it in-game. Justice seems to dislike it and probably deleted the knowledge from Anders' mind after possession, but we've never received any indication that blood magic and spirit healing is actually incompatible, just that some people dislike it. And I don't even remember Rhys particularly objecting to blood magic.

[Cultist]

Blood Magic should not be learned easily. While it's possible lore-wise to learn BM via books that approach is a faulty one."Sacrifices and Blood Orgiesfor Dummies" were bad enough in DA:O. It is more surprising that they stood near full quests, like Desire Demon pact and others, like others teaching you specs under certain conditions. Too bad most of those conditions were affection level, and not quests.

BNut no matter how someone may use Blood Magic for good deeds people will treat him\\her like Chantry depicts Blood Mages - vile killers and rebels.

[Uccio]

People are forgetting that Tevinter magisters are using blood magic constantly and still the country hasn´t run over by demons so far even Tevinter has been in Thedas for thousands of years. So no, blood magic doesn´t mean that mage has/is to be posessed or that it would be so much common/easier.

[Inferno Sock]

I'm Inferno Sock, and this is my favourite idea on the forums

[Barbantious]

Just please give them the ability to summon demons and undead, it's ridiculous that the blood mage specialization can't do this.

[Cultist]

Summoning undead is Entropy School.