2177 réponses à ce sujet

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

Connor did intend to be possessed.
Willing possessees can garner a lot more power, but they're also
remarkably rare, and Connor was just a badly trained kid in a unique set
of circumstances.

The situation leading up to
Connor's possession might be unique, but similar cases aren't.  A child
mage who just wants to help his or her family?  That's an easy target, and things can go very wrong.  'Sure, purple lady, I'll do anything to save my family from poverty/plague/danger.'

Warrior Craess wrote...

LOL so we have the Qun, who are more repressive, but at least they are repressive to everyone. The Elves whose current system seems to work just fine, but we know nothing of what it was like before. Pretty sure I remember something about hedge mages in Revain, and nothing really bad happening there. Sadly though nothing really is explained about it. And the Tevinter empire. 

The Tevinter empire is as broke as the Chantry circile method, the Qun are just untolerable for everyone who likes freedom, 

Aside from those, we have no information about what other methods may have been tried. However the existance of the elven Keepers goes a long way toward demonstrating that other less severe systems can work. 

Lasty just beause no other alternative has been enacted (good luck over coming a 1000 years of Chantry PR btw) does not mean that the circle is acceptable.  This isn't a case of if it aint broke don't fix it. The Circle/Chantry/Templar system is definately broke.

The Dalish system also punishes blood magic and hunts down abominations when they happen (the entire clan goes after the mage).  There's also the culture of the nomadic Dalish vs. urban or rural humans and elves; they don't necessarily see their fellows as family and aren't held by the same bonds.

This is a case of 'if it's functioning, try to make improvements but don't throw out the entire system', because that would easily result in the deaths of countless innocent people.

[Xilizhra]

What exactly is your objection to the Chantry's involvement? Its inception as manager of the system was in order to have civilian management of the militant Templar Order. Some international body could be formed if Fereldan and Orlais could get over their various differences, but what makes the Chantry particularly objectionable? It has held the advantage of maintaining the neutrality of Circles during war time(a benefit that the common man, who is forced to go to war, does not enjoy).

Because the Chantry is viciously magophobic, in addition to stealing the money that the Circle earns. The mages need to have their own governing body, in addition to some kind of guardian order that's wholly secular and independent of all things except the Circle.

What would you define as a willing person then if not one who reaches for demonic aid? Also your statement on her unwillingness sort've reinforces the whole idea of mages being accidental threats.

She wasn't reaching out for demonic aid, she was reaching out for mundane aid and got demonic aid she didn't want. And again, this is Kirkwall. The whole city is some kind of sacrificial glyph imbued with the spilled blood of thousands of slaves, in addition to an ur-darkspawn living in the nearby mountains. It's one of the most inherently evil places on Thedas; of course demons will find it far easier to cross over here than elsewhere.

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

Because the Chantry is viciously magophobic, in addition to stealing the money that the Circle earns. The mages need to have their own governing body, in addition to some kind of guardian order that's wholly secular and independent of all things except the Circle.

I really don't believe that's feasible in the Dragon Age universe.  The only group like that is the Grey Wardens, and that group has its own problems.

And I'm fairly certain the Chantry provides for the Circle, and, you know, the Lucrecian Faction wouldn't exist if the Chantry took all of the money.

[Vandicus]

Xilizhra wrote...

What exactly is your objection to the Chantry's involvement? Its inception as manager of the system was in order to have civilian management of the militant Templar Order. Some international body could be formed if Fereldan and Orlais could get over their various differences, but what makes the Chantry particularly objectionable? It has held the advantage of maintaining the neutrality of Circles during war time(a benefit that the common man, who is forced to go to war, does not enjoy).

Because the Chantry is viciously magophobic, in addition to stealing the money that the Circle earns. The mages need to have their own governing body, in addition to some kind of guardian order that's wholly secular and independent of all things except the Circle.

What would you define as a willing person then if not one who reaches for demonic aid? Also your statement on her unwillingness sort've reinforces the whole idea of mages being accidental threats.

She wasn't reaching out for demonic aid, she was reaching out for mundane aid and got demonic aid she didn't want. And again, this is Kirkwall. The whole city is some kind of sacrificial glyph imbued with the spilled blood of thousands of slaves, in addition to an ur-darkspawn living in the nearby mountains. It's one of the most inherently evil places on Thedas; of course demons will find it far easier to cross over here than elsewhere.

I did not get the impression that the Chantry is magophobic. Many members of the Templar Order seem to be magophobic, but the Reverand mothers and particularly the current Divine seem dramatically less so. Which is the whole point of the Chantry being involved, to keep the Templar Order in line(annulment in Kirkwall occurs when the last barrier is killed by Anders, Meredith had already wanted to annul it previous to the removal of the obstacle). A rewrite of the guiding principles behind the guardian organization would help to some degree( I think that the templars[or insert guardian name here] should be trained to view the mages as their friends and wards, and view it as their responsibility to protect them from the threat of possession), but wouldn't some civilian branch be useful in overseeing the militant arm? 


Also would you support no-access for mages area in Thedas, for areas that are like Kirkwall, until or if they can be fixed?

[Xilizhra]

I did not get the impression that the Chantry is magophobic. Many members of the Templar Order seem to be magophobic, but the Reverand mothers and particularly the current Divine seem dramatically less so. Which is the whole point of the Chantry being involved, to keep the Templar Order in line(annulment in Kirkwall occurs when the last barrier is killed by Anders, Meredith had already wanted to annul it previous to the removal of the obstacle). A rewrite of the guiding principles behind the guardian organization would help to some degree( I think that the templars[or insert guardian name here] should be trained to view the mages as their friends and wards, and view it as their responsibility to protect them from the threat of possession), but wouldn't some civilian branch be useful in overseeing the militant arm?

Really? That one reverend mother at Ostagar was quite antagonistic towards mages, and the rest of the religion seems to follow. And the mages themselves will be the civilian branch; both sides will be watching over each other.

Also would you support no-access for mages area in Thedas, for areas that are like Kirkwall, until or if they can be fixed?

Supervised access.

[General User]

Warrior Craess wrote...

Wrong, people, mages included can not be reasonably held responsible for what MIGHT happen.

Sure they can.  Holding people responsible for taking steps to ward off or minimize danger is the very nature of taking precautions. 

Xilizhra wrote...

So far, we've never seen anyone be
possessed unwillingly outside of an outright demonic invasion or a
generally veil-thin area. Mages could definitely require supervision to
enter the latter areas, but in most places, they don't seem to generally
be at risk for many non-behavior-related dangers. And Connor
deliberately summoned a demon, so that's not an example of mages being
accidental dangers.

Don't stop there.  Connor is an example of how a very young mage, with no malice at all mind you, can still cause misery on an enormous scale.  Connor is a prime example of why mages need to be educated, restricted, and above all contained.

Xilizhra wrote...

Because the Chantry is viciously magophobic, in addition to stealing the money that the Circle earns. The mages need to have their own governing body, in addition to some kind of guardian order that's wholly secular and independent of all things except the Circle.

What society or faction of society in Thedas is it that you feel is an exemplar of being able to govern their own affairs without virtually crying out for oversight and control?

[Xilizhra]

Don't stop there. Connor is an example of how a very young mage, with no malice at all mind you, can still cause misery on an enormous scale. Connor is a prime example of why mages need to be educated, restricted, and above all contained.

Protected. Not contained. There's a difference, mostly one of intent, but it's still vital.

What society or faction of society in Thedas is it that you feel is an exemplar of being able to govern their own affairs without virtually crying out for oversight and control?

The Grey Wardens and the Dalish do all right. The city elves could do with less control/oppression.

[Vandicus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Don't stop there. Connor is an example of how a very young mage, with no malice at all mind you, can still cause misery on an enormous scale. Connor is a prime example of why mages need to be educated, restricted, and above all contained.

Protected. Not contained. There's a difference, mostly one of intent, but it's still vital.

What society or faction of society in Thedas is it that you feel is an exemplar of being able to govern their own affairs without virtually crying out for oversight and control?

The Grey Wardens and the Dalish do all right. The city elves could do with less control/oppression.

In the Dalish we have the mad Keeper of DA:O and in DA2 we have Marethari and Merril(of which at least one is a major screwup). In Awakening we have the vengeance mad Velanna.

[Xilizhra]

In the Dalish we have the mad Keeper of DA:O and in DA2 we have Marethari and Merril(of which at least one is a major screwup). In Awakening we have the vengeance mad Velanna.

Zathrian and Marethari were highly isolated incidents based on special circumstances, and Velanna wasn't all that bad (and unrelated to Dalish society in general, as she'd been exiled).

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

Protected. Not contained. There's a difference, mostly one of intent, but it's still vital.

And what about the common people?  Don't they deserve protection as well?

The Grey Wardens and the Dalish do all right. The city elves could do with less control/oppression.

The Grey Wardens and the Dalish are, respectively, a very narrowly focused military order created in response to an existential threat, and primitive clan based nomad culture.  While they may have hit on a few good ideas, trying to scale up and apply their cultures to Thedan society as a whole would never work.

Modifié par General User, 12 octobre 2012 - 01:57 .

[Vandicus]

Xilizhra wrote...

In the Dalish we have the mad Keeper of DA:O and in DA2 we have Marethari and Merril(of which at least one is a major screwup). In Awakening we have the vengeance mad Velanna.

Zathrian and Marethari were highly isolated incidents based on special circumstances, and Velanna wasn't all that bad (and unrelated to Dalish society in general, as she'd been exiled).

What good example of a Keeper do we have then?

[Xilizhra]

And what about the common people? Don't they deserve protection as well?

They will find protection from proven threats.

The Grey Wardens and the Dalish are, respectively, a very narrowly focused military order created in response to an existential threat, and primitive clan based nomad culture. While they may have hit on a few good ideas, trying to scale up and apply their cultures to Thedan society as a whole would never work.

Obviously. The new system would need to have different policies. But you asked for examples and I have given them.

What good example of a Keeper do we have then?

Lanaya, Velanna's Keeper, and Marethari before she was enthralled by Audacity. And Merrill herself was very good, though not a Keeper.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 12 octobre 2012 - 01:59 .

[Vandicus]

Xilizhra wrote...

And what about the common people? Don't they deserve protection as well?

They will find protection from proven threats.

The Grey Wardens and the Dalish are, respectively, a very narrowly focused military order created in response to an existential threat, and primitive clan based nomad culture. While they may have hit on a few good ideas, trying to scale up and apply their cultures to Thedan society as a whole would never work.

Obviously. The new system would need to have different policies. But you asked for examples and I have given them.

What good example of a Keeper do we have then?

Lanaya, Velanna's Keeper, and Marethari before she was enthralled by Audacity. And Merrill herself was very good, though not a Keeper.

If Merrill had been Keeper we would've seen unconstrained passing down of blood magic teachings(substantially riskier than well controlled and test methods employed by the Tevinters). So we're basically 1 for 5 on the Keepers we've seen who could be considered as reliable ways to pass down the elven's allegedly stable tradition of magic-use. Could be coincidence but I don't think we've actually seen enough to indicate that their tradition of magic is actually stable.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Xilizhra wrote...

What good example of a Keeper do we have then?

Lanaya, Velanna's Keeper, and Marethari before she was enthralled by Audacity. And Merrill herself was very good, though not a Keeper.

Ilshae was Velanna's Keeper. Lanaya was Zathrian's First, and you only see her as a Keeper if Zathrian dies.

We know nothing of Ilshae, and little of Lanaya as a Keeper considering the epilogue slides discussing her involvement with Dalish/human relationships could be completely false.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

They will find protection from proven threats.

Mages are a proven threat.  Magic is a proven danger.

Obviously. The new system would need to have different policies. But you asked for examples and I have given them.

Yes but I was hoping for pertinent examples.  You see, the point I was trying to get at was that no faction of society can function productively without checks and balances on it's power.  Mages can't be allowed to govern themselves because no faction of society can be allowed to govern itself.

[Xilizhra]

If Merrill had been Keeper we would've seen unconstrained passing down of blood magic teachings(substantially riskier than well controlled and test methods employed by the Tevinters). So we're basically 1 for 5 on the Keepers we've seen who could be considered as reliable ways to pass down the elven's allegedly stable tradition of magic-use. Could be coincidence but I don't think we've actually seen enough to indicate that their tradition of magic is actually stable.

Absolutely unsubstantiated. And it doesn't even count; Merrill never wanted to be Keeper, and left the clan to try something else. I will not tolerate slander about Merrill.

Mages are a proven threat. Magic is a proven danger.

In and of themselves, mages are not a threat, anymore than any other person is. They will be protected, but they will not be found guilty for crimes not committed.

Yes but I was hoping for pertinent examples. You see, the point I was trying to get at was that no faction of society can function productively without checks and balances on it's power. Mages can't be allowed to govern themselves because no faction of society can be allowed to govern itself.

This is why the mages work with my sentinel idea.

[DPSSOC]

Holy crap I miss a lot going to work.

KainD wrote...
@DPSSOC

I am not saying mages should have the right to do anything they want anywhere. They are just supposed to be free. They should live in normal households, be able to marry and have children properly, get a job, etc. It doesn't by any means mean that a mage can start a fireball fireworks in the center of a town for self amusement. He can do so, if the people have asked for flashy fireworks though.

 
Which raises the question, how do you propose to stop him?  Mages who are "just free" have no checks or balances on them unless they choose to live in an area with Templars.  Normal people have no means of compelling a mage to do anything.  If someone's waving a gun around and generally being obnoxious I can attempt to force him to stop.  The odds aren't in my favour but I've got a chance.  When you change the gun to something that is a part of the person though I don't have any means of disarming them and my odds of making them stop are so low as to be insignificant.

KainD wrote...
If people don't want to see magic in their daily life that's fine, then mages should practice magic in different more isolated places. But at the end of the day the mage is going to return to his/her home town, his/her house, into his/her family, not a tower in the middle of nowhere where they HAVE to live.

 
While that's a fine sentiment I again ask, how are normal people supposed to enforce such practices?  They can't and any police force you have can't be everywhere.

KainD wrote...
Also I am not forcing people to agree with this, it's just that if people don't agree with it I don't have any problems with them being hurt by mages. What comes around goes around. If a person that wants mages to be isolated for all time against their will get's blasted in the face with a fireball, I say serves them right.

Yes you are forcing people to agree with it, because you offer them nothing if they don't.  That's like me saying I'm not forcing a child to eat peas when all I feed them is peas.  In fact you go so far as to say anyone who doesn't agree with this remarkably one sided compromise deserves to die.

[Warrior Craess]

Vandicus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes, the system needed dramatic reform. I think its premise is fairly sound though, and any future system would be rather similar in its foundations. My point on peaceful progress is in regards to Circles forming in the first place.

But the foundations would have nothing to do with the Chantry in my own case.

Also, there were willing posseees in Kirkwall, that one templar's daugher for instance.

She wasn't willing. She just called for help and was grabbed by a passing demon. Again, the willing ones don't bloat like that.

What exactly is your objection to the Chantry's involvement? Its inception as manager of the system was in order to have civilian management of the militant Templar Order. Some international body could be formed if Fereldan and Orlais could get over their various differences, but what makes the Chantry particularly objectionable? It has held the advantage of maintaining the neutrality of Circles during war time(a benefit that the common man, who is forced to go to war, does not enjoy).

What would you define as a willing person then if not one who reaches for demonic aid? Also your statement on her unwillingness sort've reinforces the whole idea of mages being accidental threats.

I can't understand why anyone wouldn't want the people that have spent the last 1000 years making maleficar=apostate, and who allowed the templars free reign in how they handle mages, or who wanted to call an exalted march on a peaceful demonstration, in charge of their fate either. Thats just silly. Obviously the chantry has demonstrated it's full of compassion towards the mages. 

Religions should not ever be in charge of anything but themselves.  Way to easy for zealotry and fanatasicm to take over. 

[Warrior Craess]

General User wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

Wrong, people, mages included can not be reasonably held responsible for what MIGHT happen.

Sure they can.  Holding people responsible for taking steps to ward off or minimize danger is the very nature of taking precautions. 

Xilizhra wrote...

So far, we've never seen anyone be
possessed unwillingly outside of an outright demonic invasion or a
generally veil-thin area. Mages could definitely require supervision to
enter the latter areas, but in most places, they don't seem to generally
be at risk for many non-behavior-related dangers. And Connor
deliberately summoned a demon, so that's not an example of mages being
accidental dangers.

Don't stop there.  Connor is an example of how a very young mage, with no malice at all mind you, can still cause misery on an enormous scale.  Connor is a prime example of why mages need to be educated, restricted, and above all contained.

Xilizhra wrote...

Because the Chantry is viciously magophobic, in addition to stealing the money that the Circle earns. The mages need to have their own governing body, in addition to some kind of guardian order that's wholly secular and independent of all things except the Circle.

What society or faction of society in Thedas is it that you feel is an exemplar of being able to govern their own affairs without virtually crying out for oversight and control?

lol so clueless.  I happen to work in EMS, and I certainly take precaution against contacting diseases, and illness from my patients. I do not lock up anyone who might possible contact Hep C at some point (which would be everyone). I do not segregate people who might come into contact with Viral menigitis (which would also be anyone). We do not make those people who might contact TB go live in a tower. 

It's not until after we determine that a patient may be suffering from symptoms that indicate those types of disease that we isolate them. Even that is only until they are tested, and if positive then treated. Then they go right back into society free to do whatever they want. 

[Vandicus]

Warrior Craess wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes, the system needed dramatic reform. I think its premise is fairly sound though, and any future system would be rather similar in its foundations. My point on peaceful progress is in regards to Circles forming in the first place.

But the foundations would have nothing to do with the Chantry in my own case.

Also, there were willing posseees in Kirkwall, that one templar's daugher for instance.

She wasn't willing. She just called for help and was grabbed by a passing demon. Again, the willing ones don't bloat like that.

What exactly is your objection to the Chantry's involvement? Its inception as manager of the system was in order to have civilian management of the militant Templar Order. Some international body could be formed if Fereldan and Orlais could get over their various differences, but what makes the Chantry particularly objectionable? It has held the advantage of maintaining the neutrality of Circles during war time(a benefit that the common man, who is forced to go to war, does not enjoy).

What would you define as a willing person then if not one who reaches for demonic aid? Also your statement on her unwillingness sort've reinforces the whole idea of mages being accidental threats.

I can't understand why anyone wouldn't want the people that have spent the last 1000 years making maleficar=apostate, and who allowed the templars free reign in how they handle mages, or who wanted to call an exalted march on a peaceful demonstration, in charge of their fate either. Thats just silly. Obviously the chantry has demonstrated it's full of compassion towards the mages. 

Religions should not ever be in charge of anything but themselves.  Way to easy for zealotry and fanatasicm to take over. 

Given that the Chantry ended the Inquisition's outright hunting(and killing) of mages, and that they have on multiple occassions reigned in overzealous commanders(for example Meredith) and that the single person who did want to the call an Exalted March was talked down by calmer folks(helping to reflect the effectiveness of a system which has proper checks and balances on authority/power), I would maintain that the Chantry is the only reason mages weren't repeatedly wiped out over the last 1000 years. Considering that maleficar is terminology used by templars to distinguish blood magic users from run of the mill hedge witches or run-away apostates, I'm not sure why you're speaking of it as a term of propaganda.

The religion of the Chantry and its existence as a religious organization seems to have very little at all to do with its existence as the civilian check on the power of the templars.

[Warrior Craess]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Connor did intend to be possessed.
Willing possessees can garner a lot more power, but they're also
remarkably rare, and Connor was just a badly trained kid in a unique set
of circumstances.

The situation leading up to
Connor's possession might be unique, but similar cases aren't.  A child
mage who just wants to help his or her family?  That's an easy target, and things can go very wrong.  'Sure, purple lady, I'll do anything to save my family from poverty/plague/danger.'

Warrior Craess wrote...

LOL so we have the Qun, who are more repressive, but at least they are repressive to everyone. The Elves whose current system seems to work just fine, but we know nothing of what it was like before. Pretty sure I remember something about hedge mages in Revain, and nothing really bad happening there. Sadly though nothing really is explained about it. And the Tevinter empire. 

The Tevinter empire is as broke as the Chantry circile method, the Qun are just untolerable for everyone who likes freedom, 

Aside from those, we have no information about what other methods may have been tried. However the existance of the elven Keepers goes a long way toward demonstrating that other less severe systems can work. 

Lasty just beause no other alternative has been enacted (good luck over coming a 1000 years of Chantry PR btw) does not mean that the circle is acceptable.  This isn't a case of if it aint broke don't fix it. The Circle/Chantry/Templar system is definately broke.

The Dalish system also punishes blood magic and hunts down abominations when they happen (the entire clan goes after the mage).  There's also the culture of the nomadic Dalish vs. urban or rural humans and elves; they don't necessarily see their fellows as family and aren't held by the same bonds.

This is a case of 'if it's functioning, try to make improvements but don't throw out the entire system', because that would easily result in the deaths of countless innocent people.

it's not functioning. We have the mutitude of abuses demonstrated in kirkwall, and the Templars who felt they were above the word of a king, and the right of conscription in Awakening as proof. 

Yes blood magic is a bad idea. personally I never found it to be all that appealing.. I could do more damage faster with the primal spells, and much better CC in the spirit and creation colleges.  Should it be studied? Yes, but only the best, strongest and most moral of mages. Why? Because with out the knowledge gained by research, it's impossible to develope counters to it.  

No one is saying that magic doesn't have the potential to be extremely dangerous. I'm simply saying that it's the people that use it that make magic dangerous. just like it was the people that used Mustard gas, Just like it was people that burned down chicago, London (multiple times), New York etc.  Given the right circumstances everything is dangerous.  Even magic. 

Work to prevent the circumstance, not punich the people for what might happen. 

[Warrior Craess]

Vandicus wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes, the system needed dramatic reform. I think its premise is fairly sound though, and any future system would be rather similar in its foundations. My point on peaceful progress is in regards to Circles forming in the first place.

But the foundations would have nothing to do with the Chantry in my own case.

Also, there were willing posseees in Kirkwall, that one templar's daugher for instance.

She wasn't willing. She just called for help and was grabbed by a passing demon. Again, the willing ones don't bloat like that.

What exactly is your objection to the Chantry's involvement? Its inception as manager of the system was in order to have civilian management of the militant Templar Order. Some international body could be formed if Fereldan and Orlais could get over their various differences, but what makes the Chantry particularly objectionable? It has held the advantage of maintaining the neutrality of Circles during war time(a benefit that the common man, who is forced to go to war, does not enjoy).

What would you define as a willing person then if not one who reaches for demonic aid? Also your statement on her unwillingness sort've reinforces the whole idea of mages being accidental threats.

I can't understand why anyone wouldn't want the people that have spent the last 1000 years making maleficar=apostate, and who allowed the templars free reign in how they handle mages, or who wanted to call an exalted march on a peaceful demonstration, in charge of their fate either. Thats just silly. Obviously the chantry has demonstrated it's full of compassion towards the mages. 

Religions should not ever be in charge of anything but themselves.  Way to easy for zealotry and fanatasicm to take over. 

Given that the Chantry ended the Inquisition's outright hunting(and killing) of mages, and that they have on multiple occassions reigned in overzealous commanders(for example Meredith) and that the single person who did want to the call an Exalted March was talked down by calmer folks(helping to reflect the effectiveness of a system which has proper checks and balances on authority/power), I would maintain that the Chantry is the only reason mages weren't repeatedly wiped out over the last 1000 years. Considering that maleficar is terminology used by templars to distinguish blood magic users from run of the mill hedge witches or run-away apostates, I'm not sure why you're speaking of it as a term of propaganda.

The religion of the Chantry and its existence as a religious organization seems to have very little at all to do with its existence as the civilian check on the power of the templars.

so the lore like speaking about maleficar is wrong?  Do I really need to link it again?  Of course there are some good people in the chantry, just as there are some good people who are Templars. Just as there are Mages who are eveil beyond belief.   Non of that changes the fact that the syhstem where an annulment can be called at virtually the drop of a hat - when ever the Knight-Commander feels like it, is broken. 

If the Chantry has truly been concerned, then why wasn't meredith removed as Knight-Commander when she first demonstrated she was unworthy? Why were all the negetive actions of the Templars ignored?  The Chantry and the circle may have started out well. However it hasn't ended that way. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...
There's no evidence the Blights were caused by mages; in fact, the Golden City was already Black when the Magisters arrived (which implies there were darkspawn prior to the Magisters like Corypheus), and the dwarven records don't mention encountering any darkspawn like Corypheus.

As far as 99% of Thedas is concerned, mages causing the Blight is a fact.
Also, Corpyheuses words are unclear.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Aldenon was a fool. His kingdom can only exist in the My Little Pony land of fairy-tales.

Aldenon was a visionary who wanted mages and non-mages to live side by side, which we know is possible from non-Andrastian societies.

And all those societes are backwards and horrible.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Again, why should I care what Irwing thinks?

And of course, everyone wants more. It's human nature to want more. No matter how much you get.

In other words, you ignore the evidence you asked for?

What evidence?

[dragonflight288]

Holy crap I miss a lot going to work.

I share your sentiments....wow. I missed a lot. Let's see here, haven't read anyone's recent posts yet, last I remember we were still on page 24, so I have some catching up to do. I'll just go up and look at a couple of posts, see if I can get some context and respond to it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

KainD wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

How do you justify what Anders did then? Its well possible to become as free as is held to be normal in Thedas. Simply a matter of earning trust. Anders doesn't pursue the "other" option, he shortcuts it.

Can you have a family and children as a mage? No. 
Can you own property as a mage? No.
Can you move from place to place without other peoples regulations upon you as a mage? No.

No matter how much trust you gain, you can never be truly free as a mage unless you follow Anders path.

Mages don't have to be truly free. Full freedom for mages is an act of stupidity of the highest caliber.

We whould be having Connonrs all over the place.