2177 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...
It's stated in codex entries that the two are often convoluted. Morrigan backs it up,

Because the Word of Morrigan is 100% truth?

A maleficar pretty much refes to blood mages in general. But it has been confirmed that the Chantry generally believes any mage who practices magic that the Circle (which is controlled by the Chantry) doesn't practice is a maleficar.

Chantry in general or specific individuals within the Chantry?
And assuming that is correct, so what?

A forbidden school of magic is still forbidden.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 12 octobre 2012 - 01:03 .

[deatharmonic]

You guys have so gone off topic lol.

[The Elder King]

dragonflight288 wrote...


It's stated in codex entries that the two are often convoluted. Morrigan backs it up,

A maleficar pretty much refes to blood mages in general. But it has been confirmed that the Chantry generally believes any mage who practices magic that the Circle (which is controlled by the Chantry) doesn't practice is a maleficar.

Wynne calls Morrigan a maleficar, and Morrigan isn't even a blood mage. She's a shapeshifter and a hedge mage, growing up outside the Chantry. Her shapeshifting is a form of magic that isn't practiced by the Chantry at all. And so she is considered maleficar.

The School of Spirit's own description says that it's often mistaken for blood magic, when it simply isn't the case. Animating the dead being an example of such confusion.

Well, in the end Morrigan knew some blood magic, since the DR is blood magic.
The fact that Wynne considers Morrigan a maleficarum. doesn't mean that every Circle mages, templars and priests would consider Morrigan a maleficarum.
I'm not saying that there aren't templars or priests that considers apostates to be maleficarum. I'm saying that there's not certain rule to consider an apostate a maleficarum. The fact that templars are free to decide themselves if an apostate is the same of a maleficarum isn't good (I think that there should've been a rule clearly expressing the difference in status between apostates and maleficarum), but that doesn't prevent templars to use their heads and don't kill every mage outside of the Circle. As I said, if the templars in Ferelden considered apostates as maleficarum, I doubt that they'd have let Anders live after seven escapes from the Circle. In Kirkwall (in which the theory apostate=maleficar is probably a lot popular between the templar's ranks). I doubt Anders would've avoided tranquilization or death at his second escape, let alone the seventh.

[dragonflight288]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...
It's stated in codex entries that the two are often convoluted. Morrigan backs it up,[/quote]

Because the Word of Morrigan is 100% truth?[/quote]

In this case, what she says has been backed up by codex entries and general attitudes of templars. In this case, I see no reason why I should doubt Morrigan. I don't believe everything she says. Her motives are quite clear. Power and survival.

But in this case, her word is trustworthy.


[quote][quote]
A maleficar pretty much refes to blood mages in general. But it has been confirmed that the Chantry generally believes any mage who practices magic that the Circle (which is controlled by the Chantry) doesn't practice is a maleficar. [/quote]

Chantry in general or specific individuals within the Chantry?
And assuming that is correct, so what?

A forbidden school of magic is still forbidden.

[/quote][/quote]

Chantry in general. I think it was Gaider who said that. I could be wrong but I know one of the writers did say that.

So the School of Spirit, a school practiced by the Chantry, is forbidden because it's often mistaken for blood magic? So we should strip the templars of phylacteries because it's been confirmed in Asunder that the phylacteries are a part of blood magic? We should condemn the world to blights by ending the Joining ritual for the Grey Wardens because that's a blood magic ritual? 

Are you arguing that we should led the darkspawn run amok and let the templars lose their ability to track mages because of this forbidden brand of magic which should never be practiced?

[dragonflight288]

hhh89 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...


It's stated in codex entries that the two are often convoluted. Morrigan backs it up,

A maleficar pretty much refes to blood mages in general. But it has been confirmed that the Chantry generally believes any mage who practices magic that the Circle (which is controlled by the Chantry) doesn't practice is a maleficar.

Wynne calls Morrigan a maleficar, and Morrigan isn't even a blood mage. She's a shapeshifter and a hedge mage, growing up outside the Chantry. Her shapeshifting is a form of magic that isn't practiced by the Chantry at all. And so she is considered maleficar.

The School of Spirit's own description says that it's often mistaken for blood magic, when it simply isn't the case. Animating the dead being an example of such confusion.

Well, in the end Morrigan knew some blood magic, since the DR is blood magic.
The fact that Wynne considers Morrigan a maleficarum. doesn't mean that every Circle mages, templars and priests would consider Morrigan a maleficarum.
I'm not saying that there aren't templars or priests that considers apostates to be maleficarum. I'm saying that there's not certain rule to consider an apostate a maleficarum. The fact that templars are free to decide themselves if an apostate is the same of a maleficarum isn't good (I think that there should've been a rule clearly expressing the difference in status between apostates and maleficarum), but that doesn't prevent templars to use their heads and don't kill every mage outside of the Circle. As I said, if the templars in Ferelden considered apostates as maleficarum, I doubt that they'd have let Anders live after seven escapes from the Circle. In Kirkwall (in which the theory apostate=maleficar is probably a lot popular between the templar's ranks). I doubt Anders would've avoided tranquilization or death at his second escape, let alone the seventh.

And those same Ferelden templars ran through a fourteen year old elven apprentice when the Chantry says they should bring apprentices back alive.

In the mage origin story, Cullen says he knows templars who discuss killing mages with glee.

Comparing Kirkwall to Ferelden is kind of odd. Ferelden is considered one of the most liberal Circles in Thedas, and from what I can gather, Kirkwall is one of the most extreme ones. But all that shows is that the conditions of mages is reflected by who the Knight-Commander is.

If Meredith were in Ferelden and Gregoire in Kirkwall, our view on the Chantry and mages would've had the extremes pushed on us from the beginning, and a more moderate Knight-Commander would show shades of grey later.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

Couple things. First once a mage had proven themselves trustworthy and capable, they were simply watched over. Some even could forego that for periodic checking in.

We have a grand total of one Circle that we see allowing that (neither the Gallows nor the White Spire seem to). And Wynne was, in large part, a complete Chantry bootlicker, although not quite as bad as the Loyalists.

Second, and more importatnly, it is impossible to predict what will prompt a mage to use "dangerous magic." The world is messy and dangerous all over. How can you be sure a mage won't turn to bloodmagic just to cheat at cards? How do you know a mage won't summon a demon to stop herself from getting mugged or raped? Or use the cover of a thunderstorm to murder his neighbor with a lightning bolt because they were rowing over the hedges or something? Power corrupts, and magic is a very powerful a force. Out in the world, the temptations to use it for bad and the incentives to use it for personal gain will be so great that few will be able to resist for long.

Anyone might become corrupt and kill at any point. We don't lock up everyone just because of what they might do. If someone commits a crime, than deal with that, but don't imprison everyone based on precrime assumptions.

As you yourself said, a mage's deliberate use of dangerous magic makes them comparable in terms of danger to explosives, which are materials that we most certainly do lock up and rightly so.  And the truth is, out in the wide, wide, cruel, mad world it's only a matter of time before most all mages deliberately turn to those dangerous magics.

While we don't "lock up everyone just because of what they might do" we, as a society, do take reasonable and prudent precautions against what people might do.  The more extreme nature of what a mage might do necessitates that more extreme precautions be taken.

In any case, my plan here involved towns built up around the Circles that would be the only places mages had full run of; they'd still be in some variety of confinement, but would have a far better chance at integration into a basically normal life while still being under the protection of my sentinels.

So, instead of a Circle tower it'd be a Circle compound?  With "your kind of people" in charge of course.  I think the great elven bard Pete Townshend said it best, "Meet the new boss.  Same as the old boss."

Modifié par General User, 12 octobre 2012 - 01:30 .

[Xilizhra]

As you yourself said, a mage's deliberate use of dangerous magic makes them comparable in terms of danger to explosives, which are materials that we most certainly do lock up and rightly so. And the truth is, out in the wide, wide, cruel, mad world it's only a matter of time before most all mages deliberately turn to those dangerous magics.

You have no proof of this outside rebellion against the current tyranny, and that's heavily influenced by other circumstances.

So, instead of a Circle tower it'd be a Circle compound? With "your kind of people" in charge of course. I think the great elven bard Pete Townshend said it best, "Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss."

This is a compromise. The thing you've been telling me to do for months, at least?

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

As you yourself said, a mage's deliberate use of dangerous magic makes them comparable in terms of danger to explosives, which are materials that we most certainly do lock up and rightly so. And the truth is, out in the wide, wide, cruel, mad world it's only a matter of time before most all mages deliberately turn to those dangerous magics.

You have no proof of this outside rebellion against the current tyranny, and that's heavily influenced by other circumstances.

No proof?  Of mages turning to dangerous and forbidden magics in response to fairly mundane and routine pressures of the world... umm... you have played these games, haven't you?

So, instead of a Circle tower it'd be a Circle compound? With "your kind of people" in charge of course. I think the great elven bard Pete Townshend said it best, "Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss."

This is a compromise. The thing you've been telling me to do for months, at least?

Maybe you could describe it a bit more?  Because it sounds less like a compromise than a changing of the guard.

[Lotion Soronarr]

deatharmonic wrote...

You guys have so gone off topic lol.

It is inevibatle.

Say anthing against mages and the mage-lovers will come rushing in.
And then the templar supporters will come rushing in.

And then we have nice big clusterf***.

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...
In this case, what she says has been backed up by codex entries and general attitudes of templars. In this case, I see no reason why I should doubt Morrigan. I don't believe everything she says. Her motives are quite clear. Power and survival.

But in this case, her word is trustworthy.

I don't see that "backing up" you speak of. Templars in general varry.
In the field, templars are given authority to dicide what to do. Which only makes sense given these are middle ages and you don't have cammera feeds or can radio the base.
Templars are trained so in most cases there shouldn't be a problem.

Chantry in general. I think it was Gaider who said that.

Quote required.

So the School of Spirit, a school practiced by the Chantry, is forbidden because it's often mistaken for blood magic? So we should strip the templars of phylacteries because it's been confirmed in Asunder that the phylacteries are a part of blood magic? We should condemn the world to blights by ending the Joining ritual for the Grey Wardens because that's a blood magic ritual? 

Are you arguing that we should led the darkspawn run amok and let the templars lose their ability to track mages because of this forbidden brand of magic which should never be practiced?

No.
Both the plachyetires AND the Joining are very, very different cases. Especially since DG said the can be SEEN as blood magic.
And let's not forget what caused the Blight, eh?

[Fallstar]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Yes they are.
You can try to downplay their danger all you want, but mages are extreemly dangerous by their own nature.

Why do you think that? When a mage chooses to cast a spell, they choose to draw mana to cast that spell, do you agree? What makes you think a mage would choose to set a house on fire? Or choose to sacrifice little children and dance under the moonlight, or whatever else you think they do.

It is a simple fact that the majority of humans are not:

1) Malicious to the point they murder for the sake of it, or otherwise cause great harm.
2) Insane enough that they would murder people, or otherwise cause them great harm.

So, what makes you think that a mage would choose to cause harm?

What do you do if it's a deadly desease and there is no cure?
How do you "treat" a mage...other than tranquilisation that is?

Why do mages need treating? They are simply people with abilities beyond the norm, that can be used to help people or harm them, in exactly the same way normal people can help or harm; it's just that mages have a far greater capacity for both than the average person. Pointing you to my above point, more mages will choose to not cause harm than will choose to do so. It is simple arithmetic then that mages will do more good than bad, if the chantry would allow people to see that side. 

[Fallstar]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
No.
Both the plachyetires AND the Joining are very, very different cases. Especially since DG said the can be SEEN as blood magic.
And let's not forget what caused the Blight, eh?

Afraid not. You can't simply decide that phylacteries and the Joining Ritual don't use blood magic. Both of them rely on the power of blood.

From the definition of blood magic (see codex entry: blood magic, the forbidden school): "The name, of course, refers to the fact that magic of this type uses life, specifically in the form of blood, instead of mana"

According to that, both those cases use blood magic. If you have some evidence that this is not the case, please share it. (Seeing as Asunder is one of the latest updates to the DA universe, and it also corroborates the above, it seems rather unlikely that you actually have anything to back your statements up, but I'll give you the chance at least)

You state that mages using blood magic are the cause of the blight. I state that the Moon is made from strawberry jelly. You see why you need to actually back your statements up, rather than just making things up?

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

There's no evidence the Blights were caused by mages; in fact, the Golden City was already Black when the Magisters arrived (which implies there were darkspawn prior to the Magisters like Corypheus), and the dwarven records don't mention encountering any darkspawn like Corypheus.

As far as 99% of Thedas is concerned, mages causing the Blight is a fact.

It's not a fact, it's a belief that the Magisters corrupted the Golden City and turned it into the Black City, which Legacy suggests is far from the truth.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Also, Corpyheuses words are unclear.

It's pretty clear that Corypheus says that the City was already Black, which means the mythology of the Chantry is wrong.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Aldenon was a visionary who wanted mages and non-mages to live side by side, which we know is possible from non-Andrastian societies.

And all those societes are backwards and horrible.

In comparison to the Andrastian societies where mages live under the brutal rule of the Chantry and the templars, where escape or suicide is the only form of freedom for mages who don't want to live under an anti-mage religious organization that preaches that magic is a "curse" and vilifies mages to the point where innocent people are killed because of the anti-mage bias caused by the Chantry?

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

In other words, you ignore the evidence you asked for?

What evidence?

I provided you with the dialogue from a rational mage who supports the emancipation of the Circle of Ferelden from the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars; a moderate, no less.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DuskWarden wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Yes they are.
You can try to downplay their danger all you want, but mages are extreemly dangerous by their own nature.

Why do you think that? When a mage chooses to cast a spell, they choose to draw mana to cast that spell, do you agree? What makes you think a mage would choose to set a house on fire? Or choose to sacrifice little children and dance under the moonlight, or whatever else you think they do.

It is a simple fact that the majority of humans are not:

1) Malicious to the point they murder for the sake of it, or otherwise cause great harm.
2) Insane enough that they would murder people, or otherwise cause them great harm.

So, what makes you think that a mage would choose to cause harm?

A mage doesn't need to choose to do harm to do harm. Did Connor want to do harm?
They have deamons clawing at the back of their minds all the time.

That's the wohle point of mages - their power is tied to them. It cannot be taken away.
If they are angry, in a bad mood, depressed, drunk, frustrated - it's always there at their fingertips.

Would you give people magical, limitless-ammo bazookas and let go on their merry way? Of course not. There's a reason heavy weaponry is illegal.

Normal person gets drunk, gets into a bar fight...bruises and blood, but not a big deal.
Mage goes into a bar fight - village gets torn apart ny demons. Bar gets burn to cinders if you're lucky.

And that's all for mages that don't want to do harm, but just slip on on the every day basis.
Add to that dastarly mages who use guile and subterfuge (and mind control) in addition to their powers and you got yourself a barrel of TNT waiting to go off.

Why do mages need treating? They are simply people with abilities beyond the norm, that can be used to help people or harm them, in exactly the same way normal people can help or harm; it's just that mages have a far greater capacity for both than the average person. Pointing you to my above point, more mages will choose to not cause harm than will choose to do so. It is simple arithmetic then that mages will do more good than bad, if the chantry would allow people to see that side.

If you got some proof of htat I'd like to see it. But there's an old expression - power corrupts. And mages got power aplenty.
How many poeple whould not end up (in the long run) abusing Superman-like power if you gave it to them? I have trouble believeing a dozen.

[LobselVith8]

 

Vandicus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The Grey Wardens and the Dalish do all right. The city elves could do with less control/oppression.

In the Dalish we have the mad Keeper of DA:O and in DA2 we have Marethari and Merril(of which at least one is a major screwup). In Awakening we have the vengeance mad Velanna. 

While Andrastian society is dealing with a continential revolution between the mages who broke free from the oppression of the Chantry, and the templars who broke free to hunt down the mages. I think it's safe to say that the Dalish clans are prospering much better than the Andrastian societies right now.

To address your points: Keeper Zathrian was enraged that his son was murdered, and that his daughter was raped (and she committed suicide as a result). He was mad about the situation, but he was hardly an insane Keeper of the clan. His First, Lanaya, can successfully lead the clan, and quell the hostile relationship between humans and elves.

Velanna was fooled into thinking that humans murdered every member of the clan who went with her, and that they abducted her sister. She can redeem her actions after meeting The Warden, and she will protect an entire village of humans from a darkspawn attack all on her own.

Last but not least, how does Merrill screw up? By researching the lore of the Eluvian, and extrapolating information from the shard? Perhaps it was Merrill successfully cleansing the shard from the taint, while the remaining shards in the Elven Ruins corrupted the elves who encountered them (in Witch Hunt), turning them into ghouls? Maybe it had to do with Keeper Marethari poisoning the entire clan against Merrill because she made assumptions about the shard, or years later when she endangered the entire clan by letting Audacity loose and turning into an abomination? Maybe you're going to blame Merrill because grown men and women in the clan attempted to murder Hawke and Merrill in cold blood?

Vandicus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Lanaya, Velanna's Keeper, and Marethari before she was enthralled by Audacity. And Merrill herself was very good, though not a Keeper. 

If Merrill had been Keeper we would've seen unconstrained passing down of blood magic teachings(substantially riskier than well controlled and test methods employed by the Tevinters). So we're basically 1 for 5 on the Keepers we've seen who could be considered as reliable ways to pass down the elven's allegedly stable tradition of magic-use. Could be coincidence but I don't think we've actually seen enough to indicate that their tradition of magic is actually stable. 

Do you have any more ridiculous statements to make, since that one has no basis in the reality of the narrative? I'm curious. Because there is no evidence that Merrill would have forced the clan to use blood magic; she refused to even risk the life of anyone but her own during her attempts to rebuild the Eluvian.

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Lanaya, Velanna's Keeper, and Marethari before she was enthralled by Audacity. And Merrill herself was very good, though not a Keeper.

Ilshae was Velanna's Keeper. Lanaya was Zathrian's First, and you only see her as a Keeper if Zathrian dies.

We know nothing of Ilshae, and little of Lanaya as a Keeper considering the epilogue slides discussing her involvement with Dalish/human relationships could be completely false.

The Epilogue addresses that Lanaya was a very successful Keeper of the clan, and was even welcome at the royal court. As for being "false," I believe the word for changing the Epilogue in Origins is recton.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DuskWarden wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
No.
Both the plachyetires AND the Joining are very, very different cases. Especially since DG said the can be SEEN as blood magic.
And let's not forget what caused the Blight, eh?

Afraid not. You can't simply decide that phylacteries and the Joining Ritual don't use blood magic. Both of them rely on the power of blood.

I'm going with the exact words DG used. "Can be seen as " is not the same as "is".
Again, blood transfusion uses blood. Is it blood magic?

Just because there is blood and there is magic involved doesn't make it blood magic.
In the case of plachyetries, blood is used to track. It's used as identification.. a DNA match if you will.

You state that mages using blood magic are the cause of the blight. I state that the Moon is made from strawberry jelly. You see why you need to actually back your statements up, rather than just making things up?

Point is that there are strong hints that its true.
And also, pretty much everyone in Thedas treats it as fact - and since the game takes place in that setting, and since any solution regarding mages would have to pass by thedosians, what they think is VERY relevant.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...
It's pretty clear that Corypheus says that the City was already Black, which means the mythology of the Chantry is wrong.

No, it's not.

In comparison to the Andrastian societies where mages live under the brutal rule of the Chantry and the templars, where escape or suicide is the only form of freedom for mages who don't want to live under an anti-mage religious organization that preaches that magic is a "curse" and vilifies mages to the point where innocent people are killed because of the anti-mage bias caused by the Chantry?

Horrible. Dalish live as nomads scraping their existence.
They don't have a true culture anymore, only fragments they keep loosing as more and more clans perish - often at the hand of the very keepers you so cherish.

MAges can have decent lives under the Cahtnry - as repeatedly proven. Tehy have better lives (or at least comparable) to most common folk.
Unlike common folk they don't have to do back-brekaing labor, plowing the fields all day or working in the mines where the working conditions will eventually erode their health and kill them. They don't spend the whole day working, only to come home, eat some grue, go to sleep and repeat the whole process tomorrow.
No, they get fine robes, free meals a pesant could only dream off, free education and protection.

Poor mages indeed. I weep for their poor hands that never knew a blister.

I provided you with the dialogue from a rational mage who supports the emancipation of the Circle of Ferelden from the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars; a moderate, no less.

Irwing clearly isn't as rational as many thought he was.
Looks like he was possesed after all.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...
While Andrastian society is dealing with a continential revolution between the mages who broke free from the oppression of the Chantry, and the templars who broke free to hunt down the mages. I think it's safe to say that the Dalish clans are prospering much better than the Andrastian societies right now.

Templars and especially mages are a minority. Even if hte war woudl last a thousand years, they would still bebetter off than the Dalish.

Zathrian was a fool and would have doomed his clan were it not for the Warden. All the deaths caused by a mage.
Metherari and Merril both fiddled with what they shouldn't. Almsot caused (or did cause) a destruction of another clan.

Let's face the facts - 100% of encountered dalish clans suffered because of their mage leaders.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's pretty clear that Corypheus says that the City was already Black, which means the mythology of the Chantry is wrong.

No, it's not.

If the Chantry claims the Magisters turned the Golden City into the Black City, but Corypheus reveals it was already Black when the Magisters arrived, then the Chantry is factually inaccurate.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

In comparison to the Andrastian societies where mages live under the brutal rule of the Chantry and the templars, where escape or suicide is the only form of freedom for mages who don't want to live under an anti-mage religious organization that preaches that magic is a "curse" and vilifies mages to the point where innocent people are killed because of the anti-mage bias caused by the Chantry?

Horrible. Dalish live as nomads scraping their existence.
They don't have a true culture anymore, only fragments they keep loosing as more and more clans perish - often at the hand of the very keepers you so cherish.

What makes you say that it's "often"? The fates of two clans can be determined in Origins and Dragon Age II, but neither one has to perish.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

MAges can have decent lives under the Cahtnry - as repeatedly proven. Tehy have better lives (or at least comparable) to most common folk.

Living in subjugation to the Chantry isn't decent. If it was, there wouldn't be a continential revolution throughout Thedas because most mages sought freedom over servitude.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Unlike common folk they don't have to do back-brekaing labor, plowing the fields all day or working in the mines where the working conditions will eventually erode their health and kill them. They don't spend the whole day working, only to come home, eat some grue, go to sleep and repeat the whole process tomorrow.
No, they get fine robes, free meals a pesant could only dream off, free education and protection.

Poor mages indeed. I weep for their poor hands that never knew a blister.

That must explain why Fiona thought the Circle of Magi was worse than her life as an Orlesian sex slave.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I provided you with the dialogue from a rational mage who supports the emancipation of the Circle of Ferelden from the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars; a moderate, no less.

Irwing clearly isn't as rational as many thought he was.
Looks like he was possesed after all.

Because Irving thanked the Hero of Ferelden for freeing the mages from "their shackles" after the Magi Boon?

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

While Andrastian society is dealing with a continential revolution between the mages who broke free from the oppression of the Chantry, and the templars who broke free to hunt down the mages. I think it's safe to say that the Dalish clans are prospering much better than the Andrastian societies right now.

Templars and especially mages are a minority. Even if hte war woudl last a thousand years, they would still bebetter off than the Dalish.

People living in the midst of a war are better off than the people who aren't? I'm inclined to respectfully disagree with that assessment.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Zathrian was a fool and would have doomed his clan were it not for the Warden. All the deaths caused by a mage.

I'm fairly certain the werewolves attacking the Dalish had something to do with it. However, Zathrian can be talked down from the murder of his son and the rape of his daughter; he can be convinced to let go of his hatred for the ancestors of the people who brutalized his children. Lanaya, the First who can replace him as Keeper, becomes an exceptional Keeper to the clan.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Metherari and Merril both fiddled with what they shouldn't. Almsot caused (or did cause) a destruction of another clan.

I won't excuse Marethari's actions, but Merrill was fulfilling the very premise of the Dalish: restoring the past for the current generation. The Eluvian may have been able to have an irrevocable impact on elven society, and I applaud Merrill for being proactive about the plight of the People.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Let's face the facts - 100% of encountered dalish clans suffered because of their mage leaders.

Two clans. Wow.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...
If the Chantry claims the Magisters turned the Golden City into the Black City, but Corypheus reveals it was already Black when the Magisters arrived, then the Chantry is factually inaccurate.

Again, Corypheus is cryptica and unclear...
And why should we trust him and not the Chantry?

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Horrible. Dalish live as nomads scraping their existence.
They don't have a true culture anymore, only fragments they keep loosing as more and more clans perish - often at the hand of the very keepers you so cherish.

What makes you say that it's "often"? The fates of two clans can be determined in Origins and Dragon Age II, but neither one has to perish.

Without super-mage protagonist they both do.
And even with him, they are both put at the danger of exctinction.

You are so fast to jujmp on the trend bandwagon to accuse templars nad the Chantry of wrongdoign and inefficiency, even in the presence of conflicting evidence.

Yet when the dalish system is shown to be  - with 100% trend - very flawed and broken, you defend it till death because it's run by mages.
They irony. The hypocrisy!

Living in subjugation to the Chantry isn't decent. If it was, there wouldn't be a continential revolution throughout Thedas because most mages sought freedom over servitude.

It is decent.
People are stupid and have revolted over everything before.
Also greed. You can never have enough... so greedy mages are never satisfied, no matter how much you give them.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Unlike common folk they don't have to do back-brekaing labor, plowing the fields all day or working in the mines where the working conditions will eventually erode their health and kill them. They don't spend the whole day working, only to come home, eat some grue, go to sleep and repeat the whole process tomorrow.
No, they get fine robes, free meals a pesant could only dream off, free education and protection.

Poor mages indeed. I weep for their poor hands that never knew a blister.

That must explain why Fiona thought the Circle of Magi was worse than her life as an Orlesian sex slave.

And there's plenty of mages who think life in the Circle is o.k.
For example Wynne. Even BETHANY.

I don't know what Fionas mental problem is.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I'm fairly certain the werewolves attacking the Dalish had something to
do with it. However, Zathrian can be talked down from the murder of his
son and the rape of his daughter; he can be convinced to let go of his
hatred for the ancestors of the people who brutalized his children.
Lanaya, the First who can replace him as Keeper, becomes an exceptional
Keeper to the clan.

All started by a mage. Mages.
In both cases they bring doom and trouble.


Your appeal to the Warden/Hawke and his magical powers are irrelevant, since no matter how it plays out, the fact remain that BOTH clans have been  brought into mortal danger by MAGES.

F.A.C.T.

Two clans. Wow.

Out of two. That is 100%.
Also, storied of other dalish clans dissapearing without a trace.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 12 octobre 2012 - 08:46 .

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If the Chantry claims the Magisters turned the Golden City into the Black City, but Corypheus reveals it was already Black when the Magisters arrived, then the Chantry is factually inaccurate.

Again, Corypheus is cryptica and unclear...
And why should we trust him and not the Chantry?

You need to pick which argument you're making. You're claiming that Corypheus is unclear when he explicitly says that the City was already Black, but you're saying we should trust the Chantry over him. Considering the history of the Chantry, I don't trust them.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

What makes you say that it's "often"? The fates of two clans can be determined in Origins and Dragon Age II, but neither one has to perish.

Without super-mage protagonist they both do.
And even with him, they are both put at the danger of exctinction.

You mean The Warden can resolve a conflict between Keeper Zathrian and the cursed werewolves, and the Champion can kill a plethora of Marethari's clan if they attempt to murder Hawke and Merrill in cold blood.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You are so fast to jujmp on the trend bandwagon to accuse templars nad the Chantry of wrongdoign and inefficiency, even in the presence of conflicting evidence.

You're using the fate of two clans to condemn every single Dalish clan across Thedas.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Yet when the dalish system is shown to be  - with 100% trend - very flawed and broken, you defend it till death because it's run by mages.
They irony. The hypocrisy!

Again, you're bringing up the fate of two clans to vilify every single Dalish clan, despite the myraid of clans that are living in Thedas.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Living in subjugation to the Chantry isn't decent. If it was, there wouldn't be a continential revolution throughout Thedas because most mages sought freedom over servitude.

It is decent.
People are stupid and have revolted over everything before.
Also greed. You can never have enough... so greedy mages are never satisfied, no matter how much you give them.

Considering that the Chantry controlled Circles have been condemned as slavery by in-game authors and characters, I'd say it's not quite the same thing.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That must explain why Fiona thought the Circle of Magi was worse than her life as an Orlesian sex slave.

And there's plenty of mages who think life in the Circle is o.k.
For example Wynne. Even BETHANY.

I don't know what Fionas mental problem is.

Wynne never contests that the Circle of Ferelden is a "prison" or an "oppressive place" if the mage protagonist addresses the Circle of Ferelden as such, and even argues that The Warden can change the latter if he returns to the Circle to take a place of leadership; she stresses that this is her dream. In the City of Amaranthine, she argues against the Circles of Magi breaking away from the Chantry since the Chantry would kill all the mages rather than see them free.

Bethany admits that, because of her Andrastian faith, mages deserved to be locked up in Circle Towers; she changes her mind about this when the Champion opposes Meredith, and admits she finally realizes that her people shouldn't be imprisoned simply for being mages.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm fairly certain the werewolves attacking the Dalish had something to do with it. However, Zathrian can be talked down from the murder of his son and the rape of his daughter; he can be convinced to let go of his hatred for the ancestors of the people who brutalized his children. Lanaya, the First who can replace him as Keeper, becomes an exceptional Keeper to the clan.

All started by a mage. Mages.
In both cases they bring doom and trouble.

You can condemn all of humanity using that line of thinking.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Your appeal to the Warden/Hawke and his magical powers are irrelevant, since no matter how it plays out, the fact remain that BOTH clans have been  brought into mortal danger by MAGES.

F.A.C.T.

I'm not certain it takes plot armor for The Warden to convince Zathrian that he needs to let go of his hatred, and the Champion can fight against Marethari's people in self-defense if they attempt to murder Hawke and Merrill in cold blood because Marethari was inept.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Two clans. Wow. 

Out of two. That is 100%.
Also, storied of other dalish clans dissapearing without a trace.

The fate of two clans to condemn every Dalish clan in Thedas. That's ridiculous.

[Warrior Craess]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Cultist wrote...

Please, don't stop, Lotion! Not every day we see people on forums telling us that Chantry is good and merciful and in its beneficent grace should start a genocide of mages and all their supporters.
In fact every your post proves that mages' lives, human lives, could not be entrusted to the templars, because they may end under authority of people such as you, that treat them like animals, who should be caged, trained and slaughtered at their masters' whims.
Way to go, man! Way to go))

The Chantry - like every organiazion ever run by humans - is far from perfect. Adn it never will be. But taht is beside the point.

What we do see every day is people on forums telling us how wonderfull and trustworthy mages are (despite having absolutely nothing to back it up with), and how everything would be peachy-fine if mages are let to run free and all the deaths that would inevitabley result from that are perfectly acceptable and people should just "deal with it", since it's for "the best".
But if mages suffer then they shouldnt' "deal with it", no. Then it's time for a bloody revolution, right?

Mages have proven to be too voilatile and dangerous. As any human being they are prone to emotional outbursts and loss of self-control and bad judgement calls. And for a mage, each such occurance can mean not only the death of a mage, but many, many people around him... and worse.

You every post proves that templars are needed to keep that danger in check to protect that 99% of the population that is far more important than the measly 1% of mages.

Please show me where I said that mages are wonderful and trust worthy? 
I fully understand just how dangerous people (mages included) can be. I'm under no delusions about the atruism of people. 

Unlike you though, I recognize this flaw in all people, not just mages. 

Unlike you I also recognize that the uninformed, or uneducated will always mistrust and fear what they don't understand. 

Unlike you I recognize that treating people as  cattle is a mistake. That forcing them to fear their own nature is one of the fastest ways to make them exactly what you portray them to be.