2177 réponses à ce sujet

[Fallstar]

You are aware, Lotion, that the Templars have no power over blood magic? Based on the incidence of blood magic shown in DAO and DA2, that makes them effectively useless. Their purpose is heavily compromised, and they cannot be relied upon to do their jobs, simply because they can't. A templar is no more useful than an ordinary soldier against a blood mage.

If blood mages are as dangerous as you say they are, surely you agree that mages must be looked after by people who can deal with blood magic? Obviously the Templars fall outside of this criteria, but who else could fulfill such a role?

The only answer is other mages. If blood magic is as prevalent and dangerous as you claim, then the Templars are absolutely the wrong people to be looking after the mages. If the Templars are capable of doing a satisfactory job, then blood magic can't be as common as you suggest.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 12 octobre 2012 - 09:22 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Warrior Craess wrote...
Please show me where I said that mages are wonderful and trust worthy?

"people on the forums" means you and only you?
I wasn't aware of that...

I fully understand just how dangerous people (mages included) can be. I'm under no delusions about the atruism of people.
Unlike you though, I recognize this flaw in all people, not just mages. 

Unlike you I also recognize that the uninformed, or uneducated will always mistrust and fear what they don't understand.
Unlike you I recognize that treating people as  cattle is a mistake. That forcing them to fear their own nature is one of the fastest ways to make them exactly what you portray them to be. 

Unlike you I recongnize that while all peoepl can be dangerous, mages are far, FAR more dangerous.

They aren't like normal people. They don't face the same risks as normal people, they don't present the same danger as normal poeple.
Threating them the same is fallacy.
And mages aren't treated like cattle.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

You need to pick which argument you're making. You're claiming that Corypheus is unclear when he explicitly says that the City was already Black, but you're saying we should trust the Chantry over him. Considering the history of the Chantry, I don't trust them.

I'm claiming both.

Anything Corypheus sez is suspect at best. Not only is he cryptic, duplicious, but he's also a bit..unfocused, confused.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Without super-mage protagonist they both do.
And even with him, they are both put at the danger of exctinction.

You mean The Warden can resolve a conflict between Keeper Zathrian and the cursed werewolves, and the Champion can kill a plethora of Marethari's clan if they attempt to murder Hawke and Merrill in cold blood.

What the PC does is irrelevant.

You're using the fate of two clans to condemn every single Dalish clan across Thedas.

Juut like you're using one circle to comdemn all templars adn hte Chantry.
Hello pot, I'm kettle. You're black.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
It is decent.
People are stupid and have revolted over everything before.
Also greed. You can never have enough... so greedy mages are never satisfied, no matter how much you give them.

Considering that the Chantry controlled Circles have been condemned as slavery by in-game authors and characters, I'd say it's not quite the same thing.

People have been condeming everything and everyone in the real world too.

does "filthy capitalist pigs" ring a bell?

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Wynne never contests that the Circle of Ferelden is a "prison" or an "oppressive place"

And yet she sez that one can have a nice life inside a Cirlce.

Bethany admits that, because of her Andrastian faith, mages deserved to be locked up in Circle Towers; she changes her mind about this when the Champion opposes Meredith, and admits she finally realizes that her people shouldn't be imprisoned simply for being mages.

Don't care about her sudden player-ego-stroking change of heart.
She didnt' mind being in the Circle befo,,e so it couldn't have been that bad. Which for Kirkwall circle seza lot.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
All started by a mage. Mages.
In both cases they bring doom and trouble.

You can condemn all of humanity using that line of thinking.

No, not really.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Your appeal to the Warden/Hawke and his magical powers are irrelevant, since no matter how it plays out, the fact remain that BOTH clans have been  brought into mortal danger by MAGES.

F.A.C.T.

I'm not certain it takes plot armor for The Warden to convince Zathrian that he needs to let go of his hatred, and the Champion can fight against Marethari's people in self-defense if they attempt to murder Hawke and Merrill in cold blood because Marethari was inept.

IRRELEVANT. The PCs actions are irrelevant. Get it into your thick head.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Out of two. That is 100%.
Also, storied of other dalish clans dissapearing without a trace.

The fate of two clans to condemn every Dalish clan in Thedas. That's ridiculous.

Look who's talking.
It's a far stronger pattern then what you chantry/templar haters have.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 12 octobre 2012 - 09:33 .

[Warrior Craess]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

There's a bit of a problem with that because with Mages, there really isn't a need to cause harm or anything. All it takes is one bad day, one failed spell, one burst of overconfidence and suddenly everyone in the village is being assaulted by undead while you mutilate your elves.

I filed that under "protecting mages." Though it doesn't seem to be as bad as you make it out to be.

To you, a mage could be wading trough a river fo blood and corpses and it wouldn't be bad.

Warrior Creass wrote...
only after they have been proven dangerous.  Not prior, not just becuase they could be dangerous. Anyone could be dangerous.

Mages have been proven to be dangerous. All of them. By their very nature.
Far more dangerous than any normal human being.

really mages are more dangerous that humans?  regular joe blow who falls asleep at the wheel of a car, and drives into a playground ful of kids? Or the people who set buildings on fire killing whole familes? Or the one who accidently burned down entire towns?  Or the scientists who developed explosives, followed by the scientists who developed nuclear weapons, Or how about the people who built and ran a place called Chernobyl? 3 mile island? 

Ohh mage mages can just turn into a demon at any time.. Wrong, they don't turn into an abomination just walking down the street.  They don't turn into an abomination simply by casting spells. 

But if a mage turns into an abomination he can kill lots of people.. So to did people named john wayne gacy, ted bundy, the green river killer, and jeffery dahmer. As did timothy mcveigh, the idiot kids at colombine, the jerk who walked into mcdonalds and killed 21 people, Any one of the people who made "going postal" mean something, 
Where I live there is somebody, making pipe bombs in flashlight and leaving them laying around in the street for anyone to pick up.  None of that requires magic. None of that require more effort than being a mage. 

A novice mage is of almost no use to a demon becuase the novice doesn't know enough magic. 

And then you are over looking the fact that demons, don't even need a mage to cuase problems. That Revenants are dead bodies inhabited by pride or desire demons, That shambling corses, shades etc are all demons physically in thedas.  Whose going to combat those manifestations?  The Templars?  Seems like we've been given endless demonstrations and lore entries about just how ineffective Templars are against physical manifestations of demons. 

[Cultist]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Oh noes. Every act of human malice is planned and sign of a clear evil that is Chantry.
Everyone is brainwashed by their evil (except for me)!

Not at all. it's just a fact.

You still practice your excuse of mage behavior, by shifting the blame to the templars/Chantry for everything.
You constantly overblow the treatment of mages and the teachings of the Chantry to the point of redicule.
Mages are actually treated better than most. They have lives better tha most.
Victims? Ha!
When people rise up and lock up mages for all the damage and danger they cause, it is you who cry "how dare they try to protect their lives and families!"

Important slaves was valued too...as well as important animals. And it turns out that mages prefer to risk their lives in open rebellion, rather than enjoy that "better living" Chantry and Templars are forcing upon them. And somehow Imperium did not collapsed due to massive mages-turning-abominations incidents.

Obviously you take everything way too seriously.
A reasonable and responsible mage should know that total freedom is not a possiblity for him.
Those that try to break free, despite knowing the danger tehy posses, are not evil...most of the time. But they still need to be hauled back.
Regrettable, but necessary.

Necessary for whom? Chantry?

For one, the mages are a very small minority, so even if all the mages were to be killed, it would still be a FAR smaller bodycount that what Tevinter or mages are capable off (and will eventually cause).
And if you say "kill all the templars" in the name of the "greater freedom/good" you're doing the exact same thing

"Mages and all who support them need to be eradicated forever." - that is your words, not mine.
And finally, your quote:

Cause and consequence. Natural order.
DEUS VULIT!

Deus Vult, "God Wills It" was the motto for majority of massacres during crusades and counter-heresy campaigns. And it is remarcably fitting that you mentioned it. Universal excuse for murder and persecution that "they are not like us", "they are different" will fit current Templars just right.

[Warrior Craess]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...
Please show me where I said that mages are wonderful and trust worthy?

"people on the forums" means you and only you?
I wasn't aware of that...

I fully understand just how dangerous people (mages included) can be. I'm under no delusions about the atruism of people.
Unlike you though, I recognize this flaw in all people, not just mages. 

Unlike you I also recognize that the uninformed, or uneducated will always mistrust and fear what they don't understand.
Unlike you I recognize that treating people as  cattle is a mistake. That forcing them to fear their own nature is one of the fastest ways to make them exactly what you portray them to be. 

Unlike you I recongnize that while all peoepl can be dangerous, mages are far, FAR more dangerous.

They aren't like normal people. They don't face the same risks as normal people, they don't present the same danger as normal poeple.
Threating them the same is fallacy.
And mages aren't treated like cattle.

yes they are treated like cattle. Know any other people that are forced to pass a test, or die? or if they fail to take the test, to be made into an automaton? 

refute the list of normal people I listed in a previous page, who were extremely dangerous and had no magic. normal every day joes. 

[Warrior Craess]

General User wrote...



As you yourself said, a mage's deliberate use of dangerous magic makes them comparable in terms of danger to explosives, which are materials that we most certainly do lock up and rightly so.  And the truth is, out in the wide, wide, cruel, mad world it's only a matter of time before most all mages deliberately turn to those dangerous magics.

While we don't "lock up everyone just because of what they might do" we, as a society, do take reasonable and prudent precautions against what people might do.  The more extreme nature of what a mage might do necessitates that more extreme precautions be taken.

First off prove your truth that inevitably mages will turn to dangerous magics. Granted some individuals will do so. Not all, and not the majority. 

Second no one is saying don't take precautions to deal with the dangers of magic.  We're saying don't lock every mage up as the only precaution. 

Train mages, educated them and the masses about what the potential good, and evils of magic are. Recruit moral people to be taught templar skills, train them in the theory of magic and detecive work, partner them up with moral mages, warriors are rogues, and form a force designed specifically to combat demons, adbominations and darkspawns.   

Remove the fear of magic and watch how much better everyones live gets. 

No the tevinter empire is no a demonstration of the removal of the fear of magic. The majestars rule through fear just as the chantry does. 

[Cultist]

Dave of Canada wrote...
Except, you know, they did. That was the entire purpose behind the original Inquisition and why the Circles were created.

Except that situation where Inquisition should be needed arised after andrastian fanatics ransacked the Empire and destroyed existing order.

Oh no, buzz words!
Welcome to Thedas, this happens to everyone except nobility. SURPRISE! You know the ironic part of it? The only people which should (under ideal circumstances) be responsible for these acts are Templar, guards and nobility don't give two ****s about anybody else while the Chantry does take care of their mages.

And slavey should be legalized because it still exists somewhere.

Except this is not the case and even then the powers of blood magic is potent enough to keep mages on a short leash.
Surprise! People don't like the thought that they might be mind controlled, killed by demons or raised into undeath!

Surprise! Rising undead is a legal school of magic. And people also don't like to pay taxes, being searched by guards and miriad other things.

Except, you know, Templar don't treat mages like rabid beasts unless the mage shows signs which they should be treated as such. They're infact treated better than a significant portion of Thedas.
Those poor mages, poor tortured souls!

DA2.

Victims of what, exactly? Locked away in one of the finest establishments on Thedas, allowed to do as they please provided they follow regulations?

Yes. Because noone asked them. Golden cage is still a cage. That's why women tried to escape from harems, where they were provided with luxuries undreamt in their "previous" lives.

How are mages "slaves"? They're not forced to do anything outside of learning magic and staying in the Circles, a mage who follows the Circle's very loose rules ends up with the ability to leave the Circles and do as they please provided they check-in on occasion.

The only mages which should fear the wrath of the Templar are those who deserve it.

You either obey Chantry, or you are hunted and killed.
You either obey your master, or you are hunted and killed.
They are forced to stay inside. And only chosen chantry apologists are allowed to leave.

Freedom is an abstract concept, it holds no weight and mages only value it because they cannot have it. A citizen of Thedas who doesn't follow the law is punished by rape, torture and death.

Does anyone weep for them? Does anyone weep when the poor starve on the streets, the plagued are left to die, the citizens are abused by guards? No. No-one cares about the widespread state of Thedas because it doesn't bother them, it doesn't occur to a minority.

Appeasing the minority which is treated better than everyone else is far better than accepting that Thedas isn't modern-day society with it's laws and concepts of human rights. Mages are just stupid super humans except for the rare exceptions (Wynne, Finn, Bethany.)

Sufferings of one group of people could not serve as an excuse for opression of another group. Appeasing? they rose to fight for their freedom, common people may choose for themselves to side with them or against them. Yes it is not a modern society, that is why mage rebellion is just another step towards so-called "modern society".
And the tree of mages' liberty should be refreshed with the blood of Templars. because they will not let them go peacefully.

[TEWR]

When? In DA2?

Over the last few centuries prior to DAO.

[TEWR]

General User wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

A citizen of Thedas who doesn't follow the law is punished by rape, torture and death.

Does anyone weep for them? Does anyone weep when the poor starve on the streets, the plagued are left to die, the citizens are abused by guards?

The Chantry does.  They provide ministerial services and charitable relief to even the most poor and downtrodden.

And yet they do nothing to improve the plight of the City Elves, when they're oppressed, raped, tortured, murdered, and beaten. Their word could influence what the ruling lords do, as the Chantry is so intertwined in the realm's politics that I personally find it sickening.

Yet they do nothing.

In fact, when have we ever heard of the Chantry helping City Elves live a better life, ever? I can't say I've ever seen that. The only time I've seen the Chantry do anything for the City Elves is in the City Elf Origin where a priest marries the Warden-to-be, his bride, Soris, and Soris' bride, but that was one priest. And as I recall, that one priest was the only one that would actually go into the Alienage.

And I wouldn't really count that because marriage doesn't really improve their lives in terms of how they live. They'll be with someone they care about, certainly. And that's good. But they're still poor, oppressed, killed, tortured, and whatnot.

So I can't say the Chantry does much good when its good is focused entirely on humans, and even then it's not done enough -- or in the case of Kirkwall, not done at all.

It's like trying to say because a mobster gave a homeless guy five dollars, he's a decent person.

[The Elder King]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

When? In DA2?

Over the last few centuries prior to DAO.

You know, you coud've quoted my post better. I remember I was the one I said that, but I didn't remember the topic.
Anyway, can you provide sources about that? As far as I know, the Chantry as an organization never said that apostates should be considered as maleficarum. The fact that some templars and priests often considers the two type of mages as the same mean only that they're free to interpretate on the matter as they wish.
I repeat again, not every templars consider apostates as maleficarum. Other than in Ferelden, even in Kirkwall apostates (like Bethany, or the mages from Starkhaven) aren't considered as maleficarum, since the templars didn't kill them but bring them back to the Circle.
I'm sure that inside the Chantry and the Templar Order there are movements who are more extremist and want to consider every mage outside the Circle as a maleficarum.

[TEWR]

hhh89 wrote...

Anyway, can you provide sources about that?

Sure thing.

Codex Entry: Apostates

It is not uncommon for the neophyte to mistake apostates and maleficarum as one and the same. Indeed, the Chantry has gone to great lengths over the centuries to establish that this is so. The truth, however, is that while an apostate is often a maleficar, he need not be so. A maleficar is a mage who employs forbidden knowledge such as blood magic and the summoning of demons, whereas an apostate is merely any mage who does not fall under the auspices of the Circle of Magi (and therefore the Chantry). They are hunted by the templars, and quite often they will turn to forbidden knowledge in order to survive, but it would be a lie to say that all apostates begin that way.

Historically, apostates become such in one of two ways: They are either mages who have escaped from the Circle or mages who were never part of it to begin with. This latter category includes what we tend to refer to as "hedge mages"--those with magical ability out in the hinterlands who follow a different magical tradition than our own. Some of these hedge mages are not even aware of their nature. Undeveloped, their abilities can express themselves in a variety of ways, which the hedge mage might attribute to faith, or will, or to another being entirely (depending on his nature). Some of these traditions are passed down from generation to generation, as with the so-called "witches" of the Chasind wilders or the "shamans" of the Avvar barbarians.

No matter how a mage has become apostate, the Chantry treats them alike: Templars begin a systematic hunt to bring the apostate to justice. In almost all cases, "justice" is execution. If there is some overriding reason the mage should live, the Rite of Tranquility is employed instead. Whether we of the Circle of Magi believe this system fair is irrelevant: It is what it is.

--From Patterns Within Form, by Halden, First Enchanter of Starkhaven, 8:80 Blessed.

Anders was only spared the RoT and execution because Irving personally attested to him being harmless. He was never a threat to people or the Circle, and simply wanted freedom. Indeed, prior to DAII Anders never hurt anyone -- though the Templars were growing fed up with it and wanted him to hang, going so far as to hunt him after he was granted immunity from the Templars.

That's not to say Gregoir was growing fed up with it. I find Gregoir to not be a man who would hunt down a Mage that joined the Wardens and was thus granted immunity.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 octobre 2012 - 11:11 .

[The Elder King]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...



--From Patterns Within Form, by Halden, First Enchanter of Starkhaven, 8:80 Blessed.[/i]

Anders was only spared the RoT and execution because Irving personally attested to him being harmless. He was never a threat to people or the Circle, and simply wanted freedom. Indeed, prior to DAII Anders never hurt anyone -- though the Templars were growing fed up with it and wanted him to hang, going so far as to hunt him after he was granted immunity from the Templars.

That's not to say Gregoir was growing fed up with it. I find Gregoir to not be a man who would hunt down a Mage that joined the Wardens and was thus granted immunity.

Thanks for the info (I read that when I played DAO, but I forgotten about it).
I will stand by the codex, but the game proves different views. Even if was because of Irving that Anders was spared, the templars could've killed him after they captured him and said that he tried to attack them, or used blood magic. There were plently of excuses they could've find before coming to the Circle, and yet they didn't. And the codex explicitely said that in the case death isn't the penalty, the Tranquilization should be used. And
 yet Anders wasn't Tranquilized..
For the templars that tried to hunt him after the Joining, we know that there templars with different views. Though if were them I'd have thought twice before going against the Warden.
The real thing I couldn't understand is why Meredith didn't kill Bethany and the Starkhaven mages. The latter were even blood mages. Considering the situation in Kirkwall, that's really strange.

Modifié par hhh89, 12 octobre 2012 - 11:26 .

[BlueMagitek]

Warrior Craess wrote...

really mages are more dangerous that humans?  regular joe blow who falls asleep at the wheel of a car, and drives into a playground ful of kids? Or the people who set buildings on fire killing whole familes? Or the one who accidently burned down entire towns?  Or the scientists who developed explosives, followed by the scientists who developed nuclear weapons, Or how about the people who built and ran a place called Chernobyl? 3 mile island? 

Ohh mage mages can just turn into a demon at any time.. Wrong, they don't turn into an abomination just walking down the street.  They don't turn into an abomination simply by casting spells. 

But if a mage turns into an abomination he can kill lots of people.. So to did people named john wayne gacy, ted bundy, the green river killer, and jeffery dahmer. As did timothy mcveigh, the idiot kids at colombine, the jerk who walked into mcdonalds and killed 21 people, Any one of the people who made "going postal" mean something, 
Where I live there is somebody, making pipe bombs in flashlight and leaving them laying around in the street for anyone to pick up.  None of that requires magic. None of that require more effort than being a mage. 

A novice mage is of almost no use to a demon becuase the novice doesn't know enough magic. 

And then you are over looking the fact that demons, don't even need a mage to cuase problems. That Revenants are dead bodies inhabited by pride or desire demons, That shambling corses, shades etc are all demons physically in thedas.  Whose going to combat those manifestations?  The Templars?  Seems like we've been given endless demonstrations and lore entries about just how ineffective Templars are against physical manifestations of demons

Alright, firstly, most of those aren't Thedas examples.  Next, Chernybol was a horrible accident due to poor design.  Three Mile Island didn't really result in anything horrific happening, so I'm not sure why you're listing that.

No, but every time that they come across one in the Fade, the Demon will attempt to possess them.  For a Harrowed mage, this is less of a problem; they've dealt with the scenario before.  Otherwise, though... Connor?

Most of what you said requires either technology or some form of black powder, which Thedas is lacking in (mostly).

Like Connor?

I cannot remember the Codex entry, but for a spirit or demon to possess something, they usually need some form of magical way of doing so. Revenants are meant to be rare.  

[TEWR]

hhh89 wrote...

Even if was because of Irving that Anders was spared, the templars could've killed him after they captured him and said that he tried to attack them, or used blood magic

We know nothing of the mentality and disposition towards Mages that the Templars who first apprehended Anders in Awakening held. But, based on the fact that they were going to bring him back, I'd say they were moderates.

I'd also conjecture that the woman they used to repeatedly capture him wasn't an extremist and actually liked Anders.

But rest assured that Rylock and her group -- along with the other Templars that pursued Anders afterwards -- would've certainly accused him of going maleficar.

hhh89 wrote...

The real thing I couldn't understand is why Meredith didn't kill Bethany and the Starkhaven mages. The latter were even blood mages. Considering the situation in Kirkwall, that's really strange.

Well, Bethany willingly turned herself in and passed her Harrowing, and Hawke possibly had the Viscount and the Magistrate on his side, along with Cullen vouching for her to be spared Tranquility or death. What gets to me is how there were only two Templars sent to apprehend her, given Kirkwall's extreme position towards mages.

I highly expected to see 50 Templars, led by Meredith, Cullen, Thrask, and Orsino. Would've helped the storyline a bit IMO.

The Starkhaven Mages had three of their group made Tranquil -- picked at random -- "to serve as an example". Though I can't recall if that happens in Act 1 as well as 2 or just Act 2 if they were set loose years prior.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 octobre 2012 - 12:18 .

[BlueMagitek]

Cultist wrote...

Except that situation where Inquisition should be needed arised after andrastian fanatics ransacked the Empire and destroyed existing order.

And slavey should be legalized because it still exists somewhere.

Yes. Because noone asked them. Golden cage is still a cage. That's why women tried to escape from harems, where they were provided with luxuries undreamt in their "previous" lives.

Sufferings of one group of people could not serve as an excuse for opression of another group. Appeasing? they rose to fight for their freedom, common people may choose for themselves to side with them or against them. Yes it is not a modern society, that is why mage rebellion is just another step towards so-called "modern society".
And the tree of mages' liberty should be refreshed with the blood of Templars. because they will not let them go peacefully.

You know you're defending an empire of blood mages and slavery, right? 

I don't believe that's the point that was being made.  Thedas sucks for almost everyone.  Hordes of Darkspawn below the surface, common people have almost no power at all (less in Orlais, where women can legally be raped by Chevalier), elves are treated like **** and potentially enslaved if they live in a human village, Dwarves are stuck in a brutal caste system; life sucks.  But there's always such a deal made about the Mages, who do live in a gilded cage, a cage that is safe from political power struggles due to Chantry neutrality, elves are treated as mages first and every mage is able to enjoy some part of a political process (five major Mage groups).  Oh no, they can't study blood magic, how awful.  My heart goes out for them.  Yes, there are abuses in the system, Kirkwall needs to be altered, but the Mages have it much better than so much of the population that it's ridiculous.

It's been stated time and time again that the Circles were created as a compromise from the "Kill all mages" and the "Mages do no magic" route.  So yes, they did ask for this.

Sorry that the people who protect the mages from Thedas and Thedas from mages do their jobs.  And once again, you're ignoring the plight of all the other people, who have it much, much worse off than the mages, and the war they're waging is only going to make it worse for those people.  Heaven forbid someone think of the elves and the common serf.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

You need to pick which argument you're making. You're claiming that Corypheus is unclear when he explicitly says that the City was already Black, but you're saying we should trust the Chantry over him. Considering the history of the Chantry, I don't trust them.[/quote]

I'm claiming both.

Anything Corypheus sez is suspect at best. Not only is he cryptic, duplicious, but he's also a bit..unfocused, confused. [/quote]

Saying that the City was already Black is pretty cut and dry to me.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean The Warden can resolve a conflict between Keeper Zathrian and the cursed werewolves, and the Champion can kill a plethora of Marethari's clan if they attempt to murder Hawke and Merrill in cold blood.[/quote]

What the PC does is irrelevant. [/quote]

Neither requires the protagonist to be "super."

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

You're using the fate of two clans to condemn every single Dalish clan across Thedas.[/quote]
Juut like you're using one circle to comdemn all templars adn hte Chantry.
Hello pot, I'm kettle. You're black. [/quote]

Do you intentionally aim to be incoherent? That makes no sense. I am against the Chantry controlled Circles for putting mages under the boot of the Chantry and the templars; you are pretending that all Dalish clans are like the two we encounter.


[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering that the Chantry controlled Circles have been condemned as slavery by in-game authors and characters, I'd say it's not quite the same thing.[/quote]

People have been condeming everything and everyone in the real world too.

does "filthy capitalist pigs" ring a bell? [/quote]

I'm sure the treatment of Latin American nations could come into play here, but that would be OT. On topic, it doesn't change the oppression faced by the mages in the Circles of Magi.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...


Wynne never contests that the Circle of Ferelden is a "prison" or an "oppressive place"[/quote]

And yet she sez that one can have a nice life inside a Cirlce. [/quote]

Actually, she asks The Warden (from the Circle) to change the Circle from an oppressive place because it's her dream. And she warns (in Amaranthine) that genocide would transpire if the Circles simply broke free.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Bethany admits that, because of her Andrastian faith, mages deserved to be locked up in Circle Towers; she changes her mind about this when the Champion opposes Meredith, and admits she finally realizes that her people shouldn't be imprisoned simply for being mages.[/quote]

Don't care about her sudden player-ego-stroking change of heart. 
She didnt' mind being in the Circle befo,,e so it couldn't have been that bad. Which for Kirkwall circle seza lot.[/quote]

So you ignore Bethany's admission that the Circle taught her that mages should be free because it goes against your own views on the Chantry controlled Circles?

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You can condemn all of humanity using that line of thinking.

No, not really.

Sure you can. Tevinter was a human empire, after all. The atrocities of the Andrastian Chantry and the Orlesian Empire. All of humanity can be condemned.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm not certain it takes plot armor for The Warden to convince Zathrian that he needs to let go of his hatred, and the Champion can fight against Marethari's people in self-defense if they attempt to murder Hawke and Merrill in cold blood because Marethari was inept.

IRRELEVANT. The PCs actions are irrelevant. Get it into your thick head.

I was addressing your line about the 'superpowers' of The Warden and Hawke.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The fate of two clans to condemn every Dalish clan in Thedas. That's ridiculous.

Look who's talking.
It's a far stronger pattern then what you chantry/templar haters have.

You mean enslaving mages across Thedas in the Chantry controlled Circles?

[DPSSOC]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Tevinter is run by mages, but even the amgisters - as depraved as they are - kept the Circle system.

Most mages in Tevinter do not run around free. Only the priviliged mages do.
Pretty much everyone else is a slave

They're still an example of mages running free, in modern Thedas. In fact they are the example of mages running free in modern Thedas. It's not a good example. Now is it the only way it can go? No. Is it the most likely road for mages to take? Possibly? Can it be tossed aside simply for being an example of the worst a population is capable of? Absolutely not.

berelinde wrote...
Except for the fact that Tevinter has an established culture which includes domination by mages. This culture predates Andrastianism, and the introduction of religion did little to change peoples' sensibilities. Ferelden and most of the rest of Thedas does not have that kind of culutre, never did, and has resisted every attempt at introducing that form of government. Ferelden, for example, seems to have a cultural predisposition toward a constitutional monarchy with a "congress" of banns. Its citizens place great store in freedom and self-governance. You aren't going to have the same outcome where the very culture of the people inclines them against authoritarian rule.

Cultist said there were no examples of mages running free post-Imperium.  I pointed out that the Imperium is still active and things have not changed.  You cannot ignore the one instance of mages acting without external checks or balances, and policing themselves, because it doesn't support your position.

[Xilizhra]

No proof? Of mages turning to dangerous and forbidden magics in response to fairly mundane and routine pressures of the world... umm... you have played these games, haven't you?

Technically, no. Only two might come close to qualifying, and neither really fits. One, Quentin, was already a studied necromancer before his wife died and he went crazy; he started killing because of mundane pressures, not studying blood magic; why he was doing that to begin with is unclear, but could very well have been due to templar-related reasons, as he seems to have been an inmate of Starkhaven's Circle beforehand.
The other, Connor, represents only the dangers of inadequate training, not the necessity of actual confinement. And he wasn't even close to a full mage, he was just a little kid.

Cultist said there were no examples of mages running free
post-Imperium.  I pointed out that the Imperium is still active and
things have not changed.  You cannot ignore the one instance of mages
acting without external checks or balances, and policing
themselves, because it doesn't support your position.

Actually, as Tevinter is neither overrun by abominations nor politically controlled by mind-control, it kind of does, at least in terms of public safety. The magocracy isn't inherently worse than any other nondemocratic system of government (in Thedas, all of them, at least for human societies). Only the slavery part is an actual problem, and that's not linked to magic per se.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 13 octobre 2012 - 02:16 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

What the PC does is irrelevant.

Neither requires the protagonist to be "super."

And it remains irrelevant.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
You're using the fate of two clans to condemn every single Dalish clan across Thedas.

Juut like you're using one circle to comdemn all templars adn hte Chantry.
Hello pot, I'm kettle. You're black.

Do you intentionally aim to be incoherent? That makes no sense. I am against the Chantry controlled Circles for putting mages under the boot of the Chantry and the templars; you are pretending that all Dalish clans are like the two we encounter.

And you claim that all Ciricles are bleak, opressive places based off 1 cicrle (Kirkwall).

I'm sure the treatment of Latin American nations could come into play here, but that would be OT. On topic, it doesn't change the oppression faced by the mages in the Circles of Magi.

It does mean that someone callign something opressive means nothing.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And yet she sez that one can have a nice life inside a Cirlce.

Actually, she asks The Warden (from the Circle) to change the Circle from an oppressive place because it's her dream. And she warns (in Amaranthine) that genocide would transpire if the Circles simply broke free.

Actually she EXPLICITLY sez one can have a nice and fulfilled life in the Circle.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Don't care about her sudden player-ego-stroking change of heart. 
She didnt' mind being in the Circle befo,,e so it couldn't have been that bad. Which for Kirkwall circle seza lot.

So you ignore Bethany's admission that the Circle taught her that mages should be free because it goes against your own views on the Chantry controlled Circles?

Bethanys wish for all mages to be free is not relevant to me.
If she didn't oppose it from the get-go then it wasn't that bad.
Waht the Circle tough her in the end is of little concern. Arten't oyu the one who constantly accuse the Chantry of brainwasing? Well, I say the disgruntled mages are brainwashing others to accept their views.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You can condemn all of humanity using that line of thinking.

No, not really.

Sure you can. Tevinter was a human empire, after all. The atrocities of the Andrastian Chantry and the Orlesian Empire. All of humanity can be condemned.

No, not really.

Apples and oranges. Differnt measn, different kinds of powers, different kinds of threat.

I was addressing your line about the 'superpowers' of The Warden and Hawke.

Which is utterly irrelevant. You're nitpicking and avoiding the real issue.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The fate of two clans to condemn every Dalish clan in Thedas. That's ridiculous.

Look who's talking.
It's a far stronger pattern then what you chantry/templar haters have.

You mean enslaving mages across Thedas in the Chantry controlled Circles?

I mean mages overblowing everything (including their "suffering")

[Xilizhra]

And you claim that all Ciricles are bleak, opressive places based off 1 cicrle (Kirkwall).

Actually, three that we actually see, plus at least one more that we hear about. And note that the mages of every Circle eventually had to flee because it was getting too dangerous.

Actually she EXPLICITLY sez one can have a nice and fulfilled life in the Circle.

She initially thought one could. She eventually changed her mind.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DPSSOC wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Tevinter is run by mages, but even the amgisters - as depraved as they are - kept the Circle system.

Most mages in Tevinter do not run around free. Only the priviliged mages do.
Pretty much everyone else is a slave

They're still an example of mages running free, in modern Thedas. In fact they are the example of mages running free in modern Thedas. It's not a good example. Now is it the only way it can go? No. Is it the most likely road for mages to take? Possibly? Can it be tossed aside simply for being an example of the worst a population is capable of? Absolutely not.

If mages aren't running free (since most of them are still confined to the Circles) , then technicly  it's not an example of mages running free, now is it?
Unless you mean an example of mage RULE.