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Blood Magic. Great power should come with great price


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#851
Lotion Soronarr

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Xilizhra wrote...

No proof? Of mages turning to dangerous and forbidden magics in response to fairly mundane and routine pressures of the world... umm... you have played these games, haven't you?

Technically, no. Only two might come close to qualifying, and neither really fits. One, Quentin, was already a studied necromancer before his wife died and he went crazy; he started killing because of mundane pressures, not studying blood magic; why he was doing that to begin with is unclear, but could very well have been due to templar-related reasons, as he seems to have been an inmate of Starkhaven's Circle beforehand.
The other, Connor, represents only the dangers of inadequate training, not the necessity of actual confinement. And he wasn't even close to a full mage, he was just a little kid.


Blame Tempalrs for everything., Typical.

Mages are to blame. It's THEIR willpower that fails. THEIR choice that dooms them.

you keep harpign on the "but the temaplrs pushed them to it?"
Oh yeah?
Well I say the mages pushed hte tempalrs FIRST.
We can go on all day in this chicken/egg debate but it's pointless.
Constantly trying to shift responsibiltiy ot others is not only a sign of arrogance, but alos immaturity. No wonder mages are confined to Circles.

Aslo, Connor doesn't represent the dangers of inadequate training. He represents the danger of mages PERIOD, because you keep claiming that it wouldnt have happened if he was trained - something you definatley cannot prove.


Actually, as Tevinter is neither overrun by abominations nor politically controlled by mind-control, it kind of does, at least in terms of public safety.


Two more claims you cannot prove.

#852
Lotion Soronarr

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Xilizhra wrote...

Actually she EXPLICITLY sez one can have a nice and fulfilled life in the Circle.

She initially thought one could. She eventually changed her mind.


No, she saud that SHE had a nice and fulfilled life.
So one obviously can have one.

#853
Lotion Soronarr

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Warrior Craess wrote...
yes they are treated like cattle. Know any other people that are forced to pass a test, or die? or if they fail to take the test, to be made into an automaton?


I wasn't aware cattle have to take tests...



refute the list of normal people I listed in a previous page, who were extremely dangerous and had no magic. normal every day joes.


I don't have to.
All those normal people can be easily stoped and have a differnet kind of power - power that depends on OTHERS or power that can be easily taken away.
Also, those poeple will never kill or hurt AGAINST THEIR OWN WILL....because they won't be possesed by demons.
Neither cna they tear open the veil and bring in more demons.

#854
Lotion Soronarr

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Warrior Craess wrote...
really mages are more dangerous that humans?


Yes. Much more.


 regular joe blow who falls asleep at the wheel of a car, and drives into a playground ful of kids? Or the people who set buildings on fire killing whole familes? Or the one who accidently burned down entire towns?  Or the scientists who developed explosives, followed by the scientists who developed nuclear weapons, Or how about the people who built and ran a place called Chernobyl? 3 mile island?


Stupid examples and a different kind and level of danger.

People have to take driving tests and there's police too. Also, every human has a car, so you can't exactly lock up every human, now can you?
Chernobyl? You do know thats a  man-made building and a disaster that shook the world and brought nuclear power under much scrutiny, since few understood just how dangerous it was.


A novice mage is of almost no use to a demon becuase the novice doesn't know enough magic.


Tell that to Connor.


And then you are over looking the fact that demons, don't even need a mage to cuase problems.


They need a torn veil - something mages are VERY good at doing.
And possesing a ,age makes them, much more dangerous, and able to bring in more of hteir kind.

#855
Xilizhra

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Blame Tempalrs for everything., Typical.

Mages are to blame. It's THEIR willpower that fails. THEIR choice that dooms them.

you keep harpign on the "but the temaplrs pushed them to it?"
Oh yeah?
Well I say the mages pushed hte tempalrs FIRST.
We can go on all day in this chicken/egg debate but it's pointless.
Constantly trying to shift responsibiltiy ot others is not only a sign of arrogance, but alos immaturity. No wonder mages are confined to Circles.

Aslo, Connor doesn't represent the dangers of inadequate training. He represents the danger of mages PERIOD, because you keep claiming that it wouldnt have happened if he was trained - something you definatley cannot prove.

Have you ever been to the Cerberus Daily News roleplaying board? You're like Dragon Age's Angry Turian, right down to the drunken spelling.

#856
Lotion Soronarr

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Cultist wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Oh noes. Every act of human malice is planned and sign of a clear evil that is Chantry.
Everyone is brainwashed by their evil (except for me)!

Not at all. it's just a fact.


Yes, it's a fact that you haven't got a clue.


Important slaves was valued too...as well as important animals. And it turns out that mages prefer to risk their lives in open rebellion, rather than enjoy that "better living" Chantry and Templars are forcing upon them. And somehow Imperium did not collapsed due to massive mages-turning-abominations incidents.


Well, no one said mages were smart.
And Tevinter still standing is not proof of anything.
Like I said - plenty of countries and kingdoms hit by major natural disasters. They're still there.



Necessary for whom? Chantry?


Everyone.



For one, the mages are a very small minority, so even if all the mages were to be killed, it would still be a FAR smaller bodycount that what Tevinter or mages are capable off (and will eventually cause).
And if you say "kill all the templars" in the name of the "greater freedom/good" you're doing the exact same thing

"Mages and all who support them need to be eradicated forever." - that is your words, not mine.
And finally, your quote:

Cause and consequence. Natural order.
DEUS VULIT!

Deus Vult, "God Wills It" was the motto for majority of massacres during crusades and counter-heresy campaigns. And it is remarcably fitting that you mentioned it. Universal excuse for murder and persecution that "they are not like us", "they are different" will fit current Templars just right.



Spare me the seremons.
You're more brainwashed and fanatical than any templar.

Also, the horrors of the Crusades were greatly overblown by those opposing the Church. Most of todays "common knowledge" is garbage to anyone who digs a bit deeper.
So any attempts to guilt-trip me or make me feel bad are goign to fail instantly. Don't even attempt it.

And b.t.w. - mages are differnet. really different. Fact.

#857
Lotion Soronarr

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Warrior Craess wrote...
Remove the fear of magic and watch how much better everyones live gets.


Any proof that life will get better? No?

#858
Lotion Soronarr

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Cultist wrote...

How are mages "slaves"? They're not forced to do anything outside of learning magic and staying in the Circles, a mage who follows the Circle's very loose rules ends up with the ability to leave the Circles and do as they please provided they check-in on occasion.

The only mages which should fear the wrath of the Templar are those who deserve it.

You either obey Chantry, or you are hunted and killed.
You either obey your master, or you are hunted and killed.
They are forced to stay inside. And only chosen chantry apologists are allowed to leave.


That doesn't make them slaves.

Being forced to stay inside and follow a few rules in NOT the same as slavery.


.
And the tree of mages' liberty should be refreshed with the blood of Templars. because they will not let them go peacefully.


The tree of world peace should be refreshed with the blood of the mages. Because mages are ****s.

#859
Lotion Soronarr

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Anyway, can you provide sources about that?


Sure thing.

Codex Entry: Apostates

It is not uncommon for the neophyte to mistake apostates and maleficarum as one and the same. Indeed, the Chantry has gone to great lengths over the centuries to establish that this is so. The truth, however, is that while an apostate is often a maleficar, he need not be so. A maleficar is a mage who employs forbidden knowledge such as blood magic and the summoning of demons, whereas an apostate is merely any mage who does not fall under the auspices of the Circle of Magi (and therefore the Chantry). They are hunted by the templars, and quite often they will turn to forbidden knowledge in order to survive, but it would be a lie to say that all apostates begin that way.

Historically, apostates become such in one of two ways: They are either mages who have escaped from the Circle or mages who were never part of it to begin with. This latter category includes what we tend to refer to as "hedge mages"--those with magical ability out in the hinterlands who follow a different magical tradition than our own. Some of these hedge mages are not even aware of their nature. Undeveloped, their abilities can express themselves in a variety of ways, which the hedge mage might attribute to faith, or will, or to another being entirely (depending on his nature). Some of these traditions are passed down from generation to generation, as with the so-called "witches" of the Chasind wilders or the "shamans" of the Avvar barbarians.

No matter how a mage has become apostate, the Chantry treats them alike: Templars begin a systematic hunt to bring the apostate to justice. In almost all cases, "justice" is execution. If there is some overriding reason the mage should live, the Rite of Tranquility is employed instead. Whether we of the Circle of Magi believe this system fair is irrelevant: It is what it is.

--From Patterns Within Form, by Halden, First Enchanter of Starkhaven, 8:80 Blessed.


WRITTEN BY A FIRST ENCHANTER.
A mage.

#860
Lotion Soronarr

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

General User wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

A citizen of Thedas who doesn't follow the law is punished by rape, torture and death.

Does anyone weep for them? Does anyone weep when the poor starve on the streets, the plagued are left to die, the citizens are abused by guards?

The Chantry does.  They provide ministerial services and charitable relief to even the most poor and downtrodden.


And yet they do nothing to improve the plight of the City Elves, when they're oppressed, raped, tortured, murdered, and beaten. Their word could influence what the ruling lords do, as the Chantry is so intertwined in the realm's politics that I personally find it sickening.

Yet they do nothing.



The Chantry can't be everywhere.
No organization can.In the modern world we have many humanitarian organizations. The Church itself helps the poor and the needy, builds school,d feeds them.
But it's never enough.
According ot you, as long as there is suffering and poverty anywhere, all those organizatiosn fail and are worthless?

Youre argument is garbage.

#861
Cultist

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BlueMagitek wrote...
You know you're defending an empire of blood mages and slavery, right? 

I don't believe that's the point that was being made.  Thedas sucks for almost everyone.  Hordes of Darkspawn below the surface, common people have almost no power at all (less in Orlais, where women can legally be raped by Chevalier), elves are treated like **** and potentially enslaved if they live in a human village, Dwarves are stuck in a brutal caste system; life sucks.  But there's always such a deal made about the Mages, who do live in a gilded cage, a cage that is safe from political power struggles due to Chantry neutrality, elves are treated as mages first and every mage is able to enjoy some part of a political process (five major Mage groups).  Oh no, they can't study blood magic, how awful.  My heart goes out for them.  Yes, there are abuses in the system, Kirkwall needs to be altered, but the Mages have it much better than so much of the population that it's ridiculous.

It's been stated time and time again that the Circles were created as a compromise from the "Kill all mages" and the "Mages do no magic" route.  So yes, they did ask for this.

Sorry that the people who protect the mages from Thedas and Thedas from mages do their jobs.  And once again, you're ignoring the plight of all the other people, who have it much, much worse off than the mages, and the war they're waging is only going to make it worse for those people.  Heaven forbid someone think of the elves and the common serf.

Man, argument, that one social group should not be free because some other social group is not free is pointless. We were discussing mages and mages alone. If peasants feel opressd - that's their business how to change the situation. Right now, the discussion relates to mages' situation and how mages could change it.

#862
Cultist

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Yes, it's a fact that you haven't got a clue.

You can always set me to ignore list like you did last time you couldn't answer my question and run out of arguments in Leliana thread, you know)

Well, no one said mages were smart.
And Tevinter still standing is not proof of anything.
Like I said - plenty of countries and kingdoms hit by major natural disasters. They're still there.

Templars and Chantry are not smert as well, then. And according to you, mages turn abominations left and right without templars' watch, Tevinter still standing proves you wrong.

Necessary for whom? Chantry?

Everyone.

In other words - Chantry and templars.

Spare me the seremons.
You're more brainwashed and fanatical than any templar.

Also, the horrors of the Crusades were greatly overblown by those opposing the Church. Most of todays "common knowledge" is garbage to anyone who digs a bit deeper.
So any attempts to guilt-trip me or make me feel bad are goign to fail instantly. Don't even attempt it.

And b.t.w. - mages are differnet. really different. Fact.

It's always nice to hear about how fanatical you are from a man who wanted to kill all mages and all their supporters for disagreeing with the Chantry.
Yes-yes, contrary to popular beliefs pyramids were built by aliens. And those who dig deeper into matter found Crusades to be even more bloody than before, especially Northern ones, that were documented well, compared to other events of that age. And I see no point in guilt-tripping someone, who already stated his support for genocide.
And of course: "They're different from us, which means they can't be trusted, we must sound the drums of war"©

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
That doesn't make them slaves.
Being forced to stay inside and follow a few rules in NOT the same as slavery.

That IS a kind of slavery. You are forced to follow THEIR rules.

The tree of world peace should be refreshed with the blood of the mages. Because mages are ****s.

Always a pleasure to see a good argumentation. Mages must fight to earn their freedom. Templars must fight because mages are ****s.

Modifié par Cultist, 13 octobre 2012 - 10:51 .


#863
General User

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

General User wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

A citizen of Thedas who doesn't follow the law is punished by rape, torture and death.

Does anyone weep for them? Does anyone weep when the poor starve on the streets, the plagued are left to die, the citizens are abused by guards?

The Chantry does.  They provide ministerial services and charitable relief to even the most poor and downtrodden.


And yet they do nothing to improve the plight of the City Elves, when they're oppressed, raped, tortured, murdered, and beaten. Their word could influence what the ruling lords do, as the Chantry is so intertwined in the realm's politics that I personally find it sickening.

Yet they do nothing.

In fact, when have we ever heard of the Chantry helping City Elves live a better life, ever? I can't say I've ever seen that. The only time I've seen the Chantry do anything for the City Elves is in the City Elf Origin where a priest marries the Warden-to-be, his bride, Soris, and Soris' bride, but that was one priest. And as I recall, that one priest was the only one that would actually go into the Alienage.

And I wouldn't really count that because marriage doesn't really improve their lives in terms of how they live. They'll be with someone they care about, certainly. And that's good. But they're still poor, oppressed, killed, tortured, and whatnot.

So I can't say the Chantry does much good when its good is focused entirely on humans, and even then it's not done enough -- or in the case of Kirkwall, not done at all.

It's like trying to say because a mobster gave a homeless guy five dollars, he's a decent person.

Since I'm not familiar with the City Elf Origin I can't really comment on it.  I will say though that I wouldn't get too caught up with the elves.  It's hard to help people who don't want to be helped no matter how much one might try.  Think instead of Brother Burkel, the Chantry missionary to Orzammar.

The thing about Kirkwall is that Hawke doesn't really interact with the Chantry outside of high politics (and politics dirties everything it touches).  We don't get to see the Chanters collecting alms, or the missionaries tending to the forgotten like we do in Origins.  Does that mean such things are not taking place in Kirwall?  I highly doubt it.

I'm not saying that the Chantry is perfect (it is run by mere mortals after all), and there surely are things they could be doing better.  But whatever failings it may or may not have, the Chantry is undoubtedly one of the primary and most powerful forces for good in Thedas.

Modifié par General User, 13 octobre 2012 - 11:43 .


#864
BlueMagitek

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Cultist wrote...

Man, argument, that one social group should not be free because some other social group is not free is pointless. We were discussing mages and mages alone. If peasants feel opressd - that's their business how to change the situation. Right now, the discussion relates to mages' situation and how mages could change it.



No, the discussion is on Blood Magic and how there should be a price associated with it. 

#865
Fallstar

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General User wrote...

Since I'm not familiar with the City Elf Origin I can't really comment on it.  I will say though that I wouldn't get too caught up with the elves.  It's hard to help people who don't want to be helped no matter how much one might try.  Think instead of Brother Burkel, the Chantry missionary to Orzammar.

The thing about Kirkwall is that Hawke doesn't really interact with the Chantry outside of high politics (and politics dirties everything it touches).  We don't get to see the Chanters collecting alms, or the missionaries tending to the forgotten like we do in Origins.  Does that mean such things are not taking place in Kirwall?  I highly doubt it.

I'm not saying that the Chantry is perfect (it is run by mere mortals after all), and there surely are things they could be doing better.  But whatever failings it may or may not have, the Chantry is undoubtedly one of the primary and most powerful forces for good in Thedas.


The problem is that like any group of humans, although you're going to have some who are honestly just trying to help, there will be others such as Petrice who take their faith to be more than just faith, and cannot stand the idea that faith and belief vary from person to person. The Qun is highly successful in conversion, so she views the Qunari as a threat. Unlike Elthina, who despite the rest of her shortcomings at least understood the need for tolerance.

That said, the same thing I say about mages applies here; it is a simple fact of human nature that there are more people trying to good than trying to do evil, so in the end there will be more DAO sisters than Petrices, and at the level of sisters and mothers the chantry is a net positive force in Thedas.

The issues come in when you consider that in some nations the Chantry is actually involved in governing the country. Ferelden keeps faith and politics separate, with the result that there are no serious problems caused by Andrastian religion. However in Orlais, the Chantry has influence over politics too. This lead to the war against the original Dalish, as the Chantry couldn't stand the fact that the elves worshipped different gods, and wouldn't allow their military arm - the Templars - on their land.

The Templars themselves are the single biggest problem with the Chantry. By maintaining a standing army, the Chantry ensures its rules are enforced. Ignoring what they do to mages, it is simply a bad idea for an organization based on faith to have a military component. Humans are inevitably wrong about pretty much everything regarding the divine, as they are only mortal and simply cannot comprehend it. As such, everyone who has faith has different ideas, whether they worship an entirely different pantheon such as the elves, don't believe in any higher power such as the Dwarves, or just slight variations amongst those of the same religion.

Now if these people disagree over something relating to their faith, normally nothing would come of it. (And since there are as many variations of faith as there are people, there are going to be disagreements.) However, when one organization has an army, a simple disagreement can turn into a terrible tragedy, such as what happened with the Dalish. Not to mention what happens if you allow Burkel to create a chantry in Orzammar. If the Templars didn't exist, and if the chantry was not involved in Orlesian politics, the elves could still be living quite happily in the Dales.

Now that the Templars have dissociated themselves from the Chantry post DA2 and Asunder, all that is left to do in DA3 is remove any political influence the Chantry still has left, and it can become that  force for good you describe.

#866
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Warrior Craess wrote...

General User wrote...

As you yourself said, a mage's deliberate use of dangerous magic makes them comparable in terms of danger to explosives, which are materials that we most certainly do lock up and rightly so.  And the truth is, out in the wide, wide, cruel, mad world it's only a matter of time before most all mages deliberately turn to those dangerous magics.

While we don't "lock up everyone just because of what they might do" we, as a society, do take reasonable and prudent precautions against what people might do.  The more extreme nature of what a mage might do necessitates that more extreme precautions be taken.


First off prove your truth that inevitably mages will turn to dangerous magics. Granted some individuals will do so. Not all, and not the majority. 

Second no one is saying don't take precautions to deal with the dangers of magic.  We're saying don't lock every mage up as the only precaution. 

Train mages, educated them and the masses about what the potential good, and evils of magic are. Recruit moral people to be taught templar skills, train them in the theory of magic and detecive work, partner them up with moral mages, warriors are rogues, and form a force designed specifically to combat demons, adbominations and darkspawns.   

Remove the fear of magic and watch how much better everyones live gets. 

No the tevinter empire is no a demonstration of the removal of the fear of magic. The majestars rule through fear just as the chantry does.

It is a truth of human nature that people WILL respond to incentives in accordance with their means to do so.  Mages, if allowed to live free, would face all the incentives and temptations to act badly (ie, selfishly, stupidly, cruelly)  that anyone else does.  Only mages, by virtue of their powers, have the means to take extraordinary action on those incentives. 

Now the Templar Order didn't just lock up mages as the only precaution.  They also trained and helped to train young mages in the use of their powers, monitored the older ones for signs of corruption, provided testing to ensure that mages can indeed resist demons, and actively engaged in not only hunting down apostates and abominations, but in repairing and remedying the damage those creatures do to the rest of Thedas. Their approach was multi-layered. 

You keep coming back to "fear of magic" as though it were a bad thing.  The only way to remove the fear of magic is to replace it with ignorance of magic, which is far worse.  Magic is powerful and dangerous, average persons often cannot hope to stop it or even respond to it, and it is used as a conduit into Thedas by beings of pure, elemental malevolence.  People should be afraid of magic, mages not least.

Modifié par General User, 13 octobre 2012 - 01:15 .


#867
KainD

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It fun and a little scary to think that if we ( people on these forums ) suddenly found ourselves in the actual Dragon age universe.. Well then we would slaughter each other in cold blood, having such different beliefs turn into practice. Talking about a friendly conversation on the forums.

#868
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DuskWarden wrote...

General User wrote...

Since I'm not familiar with the City Elf Origin I can't really comment on it.  I will say though that I wouldn't get too caught up with the elves.  It's hard to help people who don't want to be helped no matter how much one might try.  Think instead of Brother Burkel, the Chantry missionary to Orzammar.

The thing about Kirkwall is that Hawke doesn't really interact with the Chantry outside of high politics (and politics dirties everything it touches).  We don't get to see the Chanters collecting alms, or the missionaries tending to the forgotten like we do in Origins.  Does that mean such things are not taking place in Kirwall?  I highly doubt it.

I'm not saying that the Chantry is perfect (it is run by mere mortals after all), and there surely are things they could be doing better.  But whatever failings it may or may not have, the Chantry is undoubtedly one of the primary and most powerful forces for good in Thedas.


The problem is that like any group of humans, although you're going to have some who are honestly just trying to help, there will be others such as Petrice who take their faith to be more than just faith, and cannot stand the idea that faith and belief vary from person to person. The Qun is highly successful in conversion, so she views the Qunari as a threat. Unlike Elthina, who despite the rest of her shortcomings at least understood the need for tolerance.

That said, the same thing I say about mages applies here; it is a simple fact of human nature that there are more people trying to good than trying to do evil, so in the end there will be more DAO sisters than Petrices, and at the level of sisters and mothers the chantry is a net positive force in Thedas.

The issues come in when you consider that in some nations the Chantry is actually involved in governing the country. Ferelden keeps faith and politics separate, with the result that there are no serious problems caused by Andrastian religion. However in Orlais, the Chantry has influence over politics too. This lead to the war against the original Dalish, as the Chantry couldn't stand the fact that the elves worshipped different gods, and wouldn't allow their military arm - the Templars - on their land.

The Templars themselves are the single biggest problem with the Chantry. By maintaining a standing army, the Chantry ensures its rules are enforced. Ignoring what they do to mages, it is simply a bad idea for an organization based on faith to have a military component. Humans are inevitably wrong about pretty much everything regarding the divine, as they are only mortal and simply cannot comprehend it. As such, everyone who has faith has different ideas, whether they worship an entirely different pantheon such as the elves, don't believe in any higher power such as the Dwarves, or just slight variations amongst those of the same religion.

Now if these people disagree over something relating to their faith, normally nothing would come of it. (And since there are as many variations of faith as there are people, there are going to be disagreements.) However, when one organization has an army, a simple disagreement can turn into a terrible tragedy, such as what happened with the Dalish. Not to mention what happens if you allow Burkel to create a chantry in Orzammar. If the Templars didn't exist, and if the chantry was not involved in Orlesian politics, the elves could still be living quite happily in the Dales.

Now that the Templars have dissociated themselves from the Chantry post DA2 and Asunder, all that is left to do in DA3 is remove any political influence the Chantry still has left, and it can become that  force for good you describe.

I think you're very right.  The Chantry really does/did get off track when it loses sight of it's spiritual mission and focuses instead on temporal politics.  For many reasons, not the least of which would be because doing so attracts people like Petrice.  It's like I said, politics dirties everything it touches.  It's almost not even surprising that things finally fell into the toilet in Kirkwall, where by hook and by crook, the Chantry and the Templars had been involved in civic politics of near a generation.

You're right too that the Templar Order was the Chantry's biggest liability.  While the ideas of keeping the control of mages in a religious and multi-national organization both have some merit to them.  Ultimately the Templar Order served a public safety function, and public safety is properly a function of the State, not the Church.  And, obviously given the end of DA2, at some point the the Order simply became too powerful for the Chantry to control.  The cart started pulling the horse and it ended up dragging everyone over the cliff.

Modifié par General User, 13 octobre 2012 - 12:53 .


#869
Urzon

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KainD wrote...

It fun and a little scary to think that if we ( people on these forums ) suddenly found ourselves in the actual Dragon age universe.. Well then we would slaughter each other in cold blood, having such different beliefs turn into practice. Talking about a friendly conversation on the forums.


If that would happen, it would only be fair if all the mage supporters turn into drug addicted templars, and the templar suporters turn into demon dealing blood mages. Just to see what their reaction would be, them turning into what they believe the greatest evil in Thedas.

You know.... for science.

#870
Lotion Soronarr

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Cultist wrote...
Man, argument, that one social group should not be free because some other social group is not free is pointless. We were discussing mages and mages alone. If peasants feel opressd - that's their business how to change the situation. Right now, the discussion relates to mages' situation and how mages could change it.


Actually, mages wanting more than anyone else gets is kinda the issue, no?

You keep bringing in 20 centry sensibiltites and thinking into a world that does not and CANNOT support it.
It doens't have the economical, technological ot cultural prequisites necessary for that.

#871
Lotion Soronarr

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Cultist wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Yes, it's a fact that you haven't got a clue.

You can always set me to ignore list like you did last time you couldn't answer my question and run out of arguments in Leliana thread, you know)


Wait.. you had arguments?
Could have fooled me.

You had nothing then and you have nothing now.
And BTW - you are on my ignore list, but for some fraked up reason your posts still show up.



Well, no one said mages were smart.
And Tevinter still standing is not proof of anything.
Like I said - plenty of countries and kingdoms hit by major natural disasters. They're still there.

Templars and Chantry are not smert as well, then. And according to you, mages turn abominations left and right without templars' watch, Tevinter still standing proves you wrong.


Nope.
I have no idea how you come to that conclusion.

Kingdoms standing = mages are not a problem? Sorry, that logic doesn't hold up.
That's like saiyng the plage was not a problem. I don't recall kingdoms actually falling, do you?


It's always nice to hear about how fanatical you are from a man who wanted to kill all mages and all their supporters for disagreeing with the Chantry.


Like I said:
Pot. Kettle. Black.
Your words mean nothing to me.
Even moreso because you in your fantaical stupor, dont' even consider the possibiltiy of everything not being 100% serious.


Yes-yes, contrary to popular beliefs pyramids were built by aliens. And those who dig deeper into matter found Crusades to be even more bloody than before, especially Northern ones, that were documented well, compared to other events of that age. And I see no point in guilt-tripping someone, who already stated his support for genocide.


You are as ignorant as I thought.
I doubt you ever laid eyes on any document in your life - you're just parroting what you heard.
Crusades were a war like any other, just somewhat bigger in size.


Lotion Soronnar wrote...
That doesn't make them slaves.
Being forced to stay inside and follow a few rules in NOT the same as slavery.

That IS a kind of slavery. You are forced to follow THEIR rules.


I have to follow rules in school too.
Gues that makes me a slave.


The tree of world peace should be refreshed with the blood of the mages. Because mages are ****s.

Always a pleasure to see a good argumentation. Mages must fight to earn their freedom. Templars must fight because mages are ****s.


Hey, I'm just responding in kind. Mirroring your own crap argument.

Also, templars must fight because mages are dangerous and irresponsible.

#872
Lotion Soronarr

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DuskWarden wrote...
The issues come in when you consider that in some nations the Chantry is actually involved in governing the country. Ferelden keeps faith and politics separate, with the result that there are no serious problems caused by Andrastian religion. However in Orlais, the Chantry has influence over politics too. This lead to the war against the original Dalish, as the Chantry couldn't stand the fact that the elves worshipped different gods, and wouldn't allow their military arm - the Templars - on their land.


Of course religion has influence in politics.
Even politicians have things they believe in - weather religion or worldview.

The devision between religion and state is a modern concept and it's not really "better" in any sensible way. It's just a matter of oppinion.



If the Templars didn't exist, and if the chantry was not involved in Orlesian politics, the elves could still be living quite happily in the Dales.


Proof please.
You are impliyng everything that happened was the Chatnrys fault. Without any proper evidence.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 13 octobre 2012 - 01:56 .


#873
Fallstar

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

If the Templars didn't exist, and if the chantry was not involved in Orlesian politics, the elves could still be living quite happily in the Dales.


Proof please.
You are impliyng everything that happened was the Chatnrys fault. Without any proper evidence.


Well if the Chantry hadn't declared an exalted march, the Dalish wouldn't have ended up mostly dead or fleeing. I'm not implying it's anyones fault, I'm just stating facts.

1. The Dalish lived in the Dales.
2. The Chantry called an exalted march resulting in the death of most of the Dalish.

If number 2 hadn't happened, isn't it obvious we'd still be at number 1?

Modifié par DuskWarden, 13 octobre 2012 - 02:19 .


#874
General User

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DuskWarden wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

If the Templars didn't exist, and if the chantry was not involved in Orlesian politics, the elves could still be living quite happily in the Dales.


Proof please.
You are impliyng everything that happened was the Chatnrys fault. Without any proper evidence.


Well if the Chantry hadn't declared an exalted march, the Dalish wouldn't have ended up mostly dead or fleeing. I'm not implying it's anyones fault, I'm just stating facts.

1. The Dalish lived in the Dales.
2. The Chantry called an exalted march resulting in the death of most of the Dalish.

If number 2 hadn't happened, isn't it obvious we'd still be at number 1?

I'm not saying that what happened to the Dalish was necessarily a good thing, but the elves were far from blameless, if not the primary instigators, of their war with Orlais with it's resulting Exalted March.

Modifié par General User, 13 octobre 2012 - 02:57 .


#875
dragonflight288

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:blink:

This thread is beginning to get out of hand. People are calling each other stupid, Lotion outright stated at one moment that a gamer, a fellow REAL person oustide of a game deserved to die alongside the mages and at one point, real world politics got involved.

This is a thread about whether or not a price should be paid if a gamer wants to become a blood mage in the upcoming game. This seems to be getting quite personal and in-your-face arguments.