2177 réponses à ce sujet

[BlueMagitek]

dragonflight288 wrote...



This thread is beginning to get out of hand. People are calling each other stupid, Lotion outright stated at one moment that a gamer, a fellow REAL person oustide of a game deserved to die alongside the mages and at one point, real world politics got involved.

This is a thread about whether or not a price should be paid if a gamer wants to become a blood mage in the upcoming game. This seems to be getting quite personal and in-your-face arguments.

There certainly should be a price.  I would imagine that the Andrastians in your party would, at least, take a large (I'm not sure what they're going to use for companions in this game, Respect?) hit.  It should give you a very nice magic boost too. And maybe some unique conversation options (which would again, lower the respect of some of your party) that wouldn't be available otherwise.

[TEWR]

Lotion Soronnar wrote..

The Chantry can't be everywhere.

Herp derp they are everywhere. The Grand Cleric of Ferelden resides in Denerim and regularly attends the Landsmeet.

In the modern world we have many humanitarian organizations. The Church itself helps the poor and the needy, builds school,d feeds them.
But it's never enough.
According ot you, as long as there is suffering and poverty anywhere, all those organizatiosn fail and are worthless?

Youre argument is garbage.

The modern Church helps people of all races and nationalities. So far, I've only seen the Chantry help humans and that's in limited form. And the modern Church is able to do all that without being involved in politics anymore. The Chantry is still involved in politics.

The Chantry can influence the nations it has a presence in -- which is... you know... everywhere save for the Qunari lands -- and work on improving the lot of people.

Know whose argument is garbage? Yours.

Especially since I never said they had to solve all of the world's problems. That's a strawman argument stemming from your mouth. If I'm supposed to believe they're "good and holy and such a great example of charitable deeds", then I sure as hell better see it.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

WRITTEN BY A FIRST ENCHANTER.
A mage.

Yes, let's totally discount the entire reasonable statement based on the fact that "LOL a Mage wrote it!".

The Mages' Collective backs up the statement that not all apostates turn to blood magic. Morrigan backs up that statement. Even Anders does too. Oh, and Velanna. 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 octobre 2012 - 03:07 .

[whogotsalami]

dragonflight288 wrote...



This thread is beginning to get out of hand. People are calling each other stupid, Lotion outright stated at one moment that a gamer, a fellow REAL person oustide of a game deserved to die alongside the mages and at one point, real world politics got involved.

This is a thread about whether or not a price should be paid if a gamer wants to become a blood mage in the upcoming game. This seems to be getting quite personal and in-your-face arguments.

Well said. This subject was supposed to reveal whether being a blood mage should have its consequences(they were not included in DAO and DA2, DAI was supposed to implement that.) . Instead it turned into a political-religious BS.

[TEWR]

General User wrote...

Does that mean such things are not taking place in Kirwall? I highly doubt it.

People in Darktown -- Humans and Elves -- comment on how the Chantry doesn't go down to help them. Then, you see Chantry priests going to Lowtown but asking the poor there for money. They're poor. If they had money, they wouldn't be living in squalor.

So I'd say the Chantry of Kirkwall doesn't help people, and often acts illogically.

[Fallstar]

whogotsalami wrote...

Well said. This subject was supposed to reveal whether being a blood mage should have its consequences(they were not included in DAO and DA2, DAI was supposed to implement that.) . Instead it turned into a political-religious BS.

The reason study of blood magic is forbidden is because of the chantry (a religous organisation) attempting to create laws (interfering in politics). So there was always going to be a political-religous side to it. 

However there is no need for the personal insults Lotion seems to throw around when he can't respond to someone's point with anything more reasonable than "Your argument is ****."

Modifié par DuskWarden, 13 octobre 2012 - 03:07 .

[whogotsalami]

DuskWarden wrote...

whogotsalami wrote...

Well said. This subject was supposed to reveal whether being a blood mage should have its consequences(they were not included in DAO and DA2, DAI was supposed to implement that.) . Instead it turned into a political-religious BS.

The reason study of blood magic is forbidden is because of the chantry (a religous organisation) attempting to create laws (interfering in politics). So there was always going to be a political-religous side to it. 

However there is no need for the personal insults Lotion seems to throw around when he can't respond to someone's point with anything more reasonable than "Your argument is ****."

By that point he has to do whatever it takes to defend his statements because if he failed to do so I'd hurt his pride. It's normal.

[BlueMagitek]

DuskWarden wrote...

whogotsalami wrote...

Well said. This subject was supposed to reveal whether being a blood mage should have its consequences(they were not included in DAO and DA2, DAI was supposed to implement that.) . Instead it turned into a political-religious BS.

The reason study of blood magic is forbidden is because of the chantry (a religous organisation) attempting to create laws (interfering in politics). So there was always going to be a political-religous side to it. 

However there is no need for the personal insults Lotion seems to throw around when he can't respond to someone's point with anything more reasonable than "Your argument is ****."

Outside of the PC's (and main parties) hands, Blood Magic usually ends poorly for a lot of people.  Yeah, the Warden could backstab a Desire Demon to get it, but most of the time we see it used for ill in practice (Avernus or the Baroness from Awakening).  Yes, there are decent or harmless blood mages (Hawke's father, I belive, in Legacy? and Jowan), but they seem rather outnumbered.

And from my understanding, there was a consequence in DA:O where both the Mages and Templars both turned on you unless you bluffed your way out of it.   Here it is. I'm not sure why it was cut.

[Fallstar]

I think it was cut because of the "only one mage warden" line. Which is contradicted in game and in the books.

[General User]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

General User wrote...

Does that mean such things are not taking place in Kirwall? I highly doubt it.

People in Darktown -- Humans and Elves -- comment on how the Chantry doesn't go down to help them. Then, you see Chantry priests going to Lowtown but asking the poor there for money. They're poor. If they had money, they wouldn't be living in squalor.

So I'd say the Chantry of Kirkwall doesn't help people, and often acts illogically.

The people in Darktown (who weren't vicious criminals) were as bitter as they were desperate.  And, not to put too fine a point on it, but if I lived in Kirkwall, I wouldn't go to Darktown either unless I had a half-dozen blokes with me, all of us armed.  I'm not saying the Chantry couldn't or shouldn't have done more down there, just that there were good reasons for it to focus elsewhere.  And again, the women who run the Chantry are merely mortal and thus flawed.

And I wouldn't call Lowtown and it's people "poor" so much as "working-class."  Now I'm not sure if the Chantry of Andraste has a doctrine equivalent to The Widow's Offering, but it seems like the kind of thing they would embrace.

Modifié par General User, 13 octobre 2012 - 03:45 .

[Blessed Silence]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Blood mage, gameplay wise, is hardly "great" power.

Still going through this thread, but I kind of had the mindset too.

I mean, I got annoyed of so many BM specific items that dropped in DA:O and DA2 that I just trashed.  I don't see it as that great either.  Maybe I'm missing something.  I dunno.

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...



This thread is beginning to get out of hand. People are calling each other stupid, Lotion outright stated at one moment that a gamer, a fellow REAL person oustide of a game deserved to die alongside the mages and at one point, real world politics got involved.

wow
Dragon...
really.... just....really.

I'm looking for a word to describe this, but I can't find one that wouldn't leave you insulted.

[dragonflight288]

whogotsalami wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

whogotsalami wrote...

Well said. This subject was supposed to reveal whether being a blood mage should have its consequences(they were not included in DAO and DA2, DAI was supposed to implement that.) . Instead it turned into a political-religious BS.

The reason study of blood magic is forbidden is because of the chantry (a religous organisation) attempting to create laws (interfering in politics). So there was always going to be a political-religous side to it. 

However there is no need for the personal insults Lotion seems to throw around when he can't respond to someone's point with anything more reasonable than "Your argument is ****."

By that point he has to do whatever it takes to defend his statements because if he failed to do so I'd hurt his pride. It's normal.

But it's not normal to outright state that a real person deserves to die alongside an entire group of fictional characters.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote..

The Chantry can't be everywhere.[/quote]

Herp derp they are everywhere. The Grand Cleric of Ferelden resides in Denerim and regularly attends the Landsmeet.[/quote]

WTF?

If all the charities and various welfare organizations (inculding the Church) of our world can't be everywhere and take care of everyone i nneed, what makes you think the Chatnry can?

Seriously man.


[/quote]
Know whose argument is garbage? Yours.[/quote]

Pot. Kettle. Black.


[quote]
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

WRITTEN BY A FIRST ENCHANTER.
A mage.[/quote]

Yes, let's totally discount the entire reasonable statement based on the fact that "LOL a Mage wrote it!".[/quote]

Biased writing.Mage supporters seem oh so quick to jump o nthat bandwagon whenever something in a codex is not to their linking.
But if someone who's not pro-mage uses the same argument, sudddenly shame on us?

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 13 octobre 2012 - 07:35 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

whogotsalami wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...
However there is no need for the personal insults Lotion seems to throw around when he can't respond to someone's point with anything more reasonable than "Your argument is ****."

By that point he has to do whatever it takes to defend his statements because if he failed to do so I'd hurt his pride. It's normal.

Hehe..
Can't even detect sarcasm if it hit you in the head.

Go ahead and laugh. Im laughing too over here. At you.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DuskWarden wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

If the Templars didn't exist, and if the chantry was not involved in Orlesian politics, the elves could still be living quite happily in the Dales.

Proof please.
You are impliyng everything that happened was the Chatnrys fault. Without any proper evidence.

Well if the Chantry hadn't declared an exalted march, the Dalish wouldn't have ended up mostly dead or fleeing. I'm not implying it's anyones fault, I'm just stating facts.

1. The Dalish lived in the Dales.
2. The Chantry called an exalted march resulting in the death of most of the Dalish.

If number 2 hadn't happened, isn't it obvious we'd still be at number 1?

The Dalish attacked first according to other sources.

Next you'll be telling me the allies are the villains because they invaded Gernamy.

[dragonflight288]

So back onto the original topic of this thread. Should a person play a mage, and find themselves in a position where they can learn blood magic, whether from a book or from another mage, it may be cool that the only way possible to get some of the most powerful blood mage spells would have to come from a demon, but the ability to use blood instead of mana could be learned anywhere.

Example, using someone else's blood (even an enemies) to heal yourself would have to be learned through suspicious circumstances (a unique blood mage side quest that makes it clear that kind of power had to be learned from wherever.) But the power to turn enemies on other enemies, or mind control (and then be able to use it subtly in conversation in addition to persuasion) requires some kind of deal with a demon or something like that.

If that happened, it could add a lot to the dynamic of what kind of character are you playing. The kind who'll make deals with demons for power? The kind who avoids dealing with demons entirely but study other avenues of magic?

And we can have similar quests for the warrior's reavers or the rogue's assassins.

[Mello]

I had to.

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...

But it's not normal to outright state that a real person deserves to die alongside an entire group of fictional characters.

Because when mage supporters say all templars and anyone who supports them have to die, they are saints?

But when I say all mages and anyone who supports them have to die (jokingly), I'm the anti-christ?



Sure..whatever.
Being hated by mage supporters doesn't bother me.
Actually it makes me hapy. Means I'm doing something right.

[Vandicus]

The original topic was pretty much unanimously agreed upon in the first two pages, people seem to want specializations to matter. This is the longest non-LI thread on the DA3 forums, it'd be a shame if it died to agreement.

As is, the discussion of how and why mages should/should not be regulated is sort've related in that we can see how various people react to the situation, which is what the topic is about, people(NPCs in the case of the video game) reacting to blood magic.

[dragonflight288]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

But it's not normal to outright state that a real person deserves to die alongside an entire group of fictional characters.

Because when mage supporters say all templars and anyone who supports them have to die, they are saints?

But when I say all mages and anyone who supports them have to die (jokingly), I'm the anti-christ?



Sure..whatever.
Being hated by mage supporters doesn't bother me.
Actually it makes me hapy. Means I'm doing something right.

Nah. You are entitled to your opinion and have every right to express it. I may disagree but we can both be friendly by the end of the day. When mage supporters call templar supporters idiots and stupid, they are crossing the line.

But when you say things like this....

KainD wrote...

@DPSSOC

it's unfair to begin with. See mages were just born that way, they didn't do anything to become mages, it wasn't a choice.

I think a good society should go through rough things together. I
personally would take the risk of being hurt by a mage, for that mage
to have complete freedom and rights just like me, if we are living in
the same society, I don't have the right to lock him/her up for what
he/she is. The mage did nothing to deserve it, it just happened.

Then you are stupid and should die along with the mage.

....then  you are crossing a line. That's exactly what you said on page 24 of this very thread we're in.

[Vandicus]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

But it's not normal to outright state that a real person deserves to die alongside an entire group of fictional characters.

Because when mage supporters say all templars and anyone who supports them have to die, they are saints?

But when I say all mages and anyone who supports them have to die (jokingly), I'm the anti-christ?



Sure..whatever.
Being hated by mage supporters doesn't bother me.
Actually it makes me hapy. Means I'm doing something right.

Nah. You are entitled to your opinion and have every right to express it. I may disagree but we can both be friendly by the end of the day. When mage supporters call templar supporters idiots and stupid, they are crossing the line.

But when you say things like this....

KainD wrote...

@DPSSOC

it's unfair to begin with. See mages were just born that way, they didn't do anything to become mages, it wasn't a choice.

I think a good society should go through rough things together. I
personally would take the risk of being hurt by a mage, for that mage
to have complete freedom and rights just like me, if we are living in
the same society, I don't have the right to lock him/her up for what
he/she is. The mage did nothing to deserve it, it just happened.

Then you are stupid and should die along with the mage.

....then  you are crossing a line. That's exactly what you said on page 24 of this very thread we're in.

Context. The guy he's responding to said the annhilation of every member of the Democrat party during the 19th century would have been justified. Also his line is more like "You're too stupid to live" rather than "Someone should kill you".

[whogotsalami]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

whogotsalami wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...
However there is no need for the personal insults Lotion seems to throw around when he can't respond to someone's point with anything more reasonable than "Your argument is ****."

By that point he has to do whatever it takes to defend his statements because if he failed to do so I'd hurt his pride. It's normal.

Hehe..
Can't even detect sarcasm if it hit you in the head.

Go ahead and laugh. Im laughing too over here. At you.

I don't know where from did you conclude that I laughed. I feel like this is some kind of forced laugh from your side though. I'm going to grab some popcorn and see how this situation unfolds. You have to chill out a bit Lotion.

[dragonflight288]

So....back on the topic everyone.

[KainD]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

But it's not normal to outright state that a real person deserves to die alongside an entire group of fictional characters.

Because when mage supporters say all templars and anyone who supports them have to die, they are saints?

But when I say all mages and anyone who supports them have to die (jokingly), I'm the anti-christ?



Sure..whatever.
Being hated by mage supporters doesn't bother me.
Actually it makes me hapy. Means I'm doing something right.

Nah. You are entitled to your opinion and have every right to express it. I may disagree but we can both be friendly by the end of the day. When mage supporters call templar supporters idiots and stupid, they are crossing the line.

But when you say things like this....

KainD wrote...

@DPSSOC

it's unfair to begin with. See mages were just born that way, they didn't do anything to become mages, it wasn't a choice.

I think a good society should go through rough things together. I
personally would take the risk of being hurt by a mage, for that mage
to have complete freedom and rights just like me, if we are living in
the same society, I don't have the right to lock him/her up for what
he/she is. The mage did nothing to deserve it, it just happened.

Then you are stupid and should die along with the mage.

....then  you are crossing a line. That's exactly what you said on page 24 of this very thread we're in.

He's not crossing the line, if we faced a similar issue IRL and had some sort of power to back up our ideals, we would literally kill each other. That's the truth. But happily for us mages do not exist, and neither do we possess big political strength or fantasy military prowess.

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
....then  you are crossing a line. That's exactly what you said on page 24 of this very thread we're in.

In defense of Lotion, while he may have been less than tactful, it was KainD who used himself as an example first.

Personally, I also feel that his viewpoint was quite naive and likely to hurt a great number of people.