2177 réponses à ce sujet

[DPSSOC]

dragonflight288 wrote...

So....back on the topic everyone.

Well the idea of more dialogue with NPC's was brought up with corresponding Respect/Approval/Whatever hits.  I think mechanically speaking blood magic should be more powerful, because it's supposed to be, but less sustainable.  For example when you use blood magic to fuel normal spells it just takes the mana cost + maybe 10-20% out of your hitpoints but it's that much more effective (more damage, longer duration, what have you), but with blood specific spells maybe it takes a percentage.  For example things like stealing life from opponents could be 30%, mind control and hemmorage would be 60% and then for 90% you get spells that let you boil the blood of all enemies in an area of effect or summon a demon.  Something ridiculously powerful but it puts you at death's door.

Also maybe have blood magic work off a separate resistance?  Like there's magic resistance and then there's blood resistance which can only really be improved by magic items.  This not only makes the PC more effective as a blood mage but makes blood mage enemies a greater threat.

Also also something to consider is in one of the Baldur's Gate games (can't remember which) they had it so in a certain area it was illegal to use magic and if you did the guards jumped you.  Maybe have something like that where if you use specifically tagged "obvious" blood magic spells guards in the area would attack you.

[TEWR]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

WTF?

If all the charities and various welfare organizations (inculding the Church) of our world can't be everywhere and take care of everyone i nneed, what makes you think the Chatnry can?

Seriously man.

Because the Chantry has a presence in every village and every major city. They're involved in the politics of the realm. Divine Beatrix III was a personal friend of the Emperor of Orlais and often met with him. Divine Justinia V has even been involved in politics.

The Grand Cleric of Ferelden resides in Denerim and attends the Landsmeet each year.

Elthina lives in ****ing Kirkwall.

They are everywhere. They are involved in the politics of Thedas so much that they could easily decree that the Elves should be helped and treated better.

Never mind how Thedas isn't even 1/4 as big as our world is. Thedas encompasses all of the known lands. And the Chantry has a presence in all of them except the Qunari lands. So if you want to say "Nope, they can't do it" in a world that's significantly smaller then our world, then you're just wrong.

What, are you going to tell me they're justified in ignoring the problems of Thedas year after year, for centuries on end? 

What help did they give the Dwarves? None, despite the everpresent threat of the Darkspawn plaguing them. Nn Mages, no Templars, none. And the Dwarves -- prior to Harrowmont if he's put on the throne -- routinely welcomed outsiders into their hallowed halls.

What help do they give the Elves? None, despite the rampant abuse the Elves suffer daily.

I don't see a damn good reason why I should like the Chantry if they can't even help the Elves live better lives and allow the Mages to help the populus of Thedas -- including the Dwarves who have been the primary reason the Darkspawn stay underground for centuries on end. 

Justinia V may change that. If she does, I'll definitely support her. But for centuries, the Chantry has done nothing but cover its ears and go "Lalalalalalalalalalalalala".

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Keep saying that. I'm sure it'll be true one of these days.

Biased writing.Mage supporters seem oh so quick to jump o nthat bandwagon whenever something in a codex is not to their linking.

Wynne and Alistair prove the fact that the Chantry's education on what "maleficar" means to them has indeed been warped to mean apostate.

They both label Morrigan a "maleficar", when she's simply an apostate. Alistair was raised in the Chantry and trained as a Templar. Wynne lived in the Chantry controlled Circles.

So yea...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


But if someone who's not pro-mage uses the same argument, sudddenly shame on us?

No, just shame on you. You want to call biased writing, try doing so when there isn't evidence to support the codex. 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 octobre 2012 - 02:16 .

[KainD]

If back on topic, I would like to see blood magic play a role in some quests. I believe inquisition does a lot of questioning, so using blood magic to extract some information in some quest instead of going through a torture or finding some other means to do the task, would be nice. And then all the party reaction and stuff too.

[DPSSOC]

KainD wrote...

If back on topic, I would like to see blood magic play a role in some quests. I believe inquisition does a lot of questioning, so using blood magic to extract some information in some quest instead of going through a torture or finding some other means to do the task, would be nice. And then all the party reaction and stuff too.

I like it, makes for an interesting moral dilemna moment.

[Vandicus]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


Wynne and Alistair prove the fact that the Chantry's education on what "maleficar" means to them has indeed been warped to mean apostate.

They both label Morrigan a "maleficar", when she's simply an apostate. Alistair was raised in the Chantry and trained as a Templar. Wynne lived in the Chantry controlled Circles.

While Morrigan might not have been a maleficar at that point she certainly is one later. That she knows a convenient blood magic ritual of that power level suggests greater familiarity with blood magic than she reveals.

[TEWR]

Vandicus wrote...

While Morrigan might not have been a maleficar at that point she certainly is one later. That she knows a convenient blood magic ritual of that power level suggests greater familiarity with blood magic than she reveals.

She says it can be called such, and that it's just a term. Whether it truly is -- as it doesn't really involve blood as either a component or a fuel source -- I don't know.

And even so, we know nothing of whether or not she becomes one later on. I think to label her a maleficar over one possible instance of blood magic wouldn't be accurate, unless she happens to be a practicing blood mage after that instance.

[Vandicus]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

While Morrigan might not have been a maleficar at that point she certainly is one later. That she knows a convenient blood magic ritual of that power level suggests greater familiarity with blood magic than she reveals.

She says it can be called such, and that it's just a term. Whether it truly is -- as it doesn't really involve blood as either a component or a fuel source -- I don't know.

And even so, we know nothing of whether or not she becomes one later on. I think to label her a maleficar over one possible instance of blood magic wouldn't be accurate, unless she happens to be a practicing blood mage after that instance.

Well I was going for knowng a powerful blood magic ritual usually suggests some familiarity with blood magic previously, as we don't usually see mages jump from base levels of blood magic use to extremely advanced rituals.

Also I don't think that Wynne and Alistair are given to think all apostates are maleficar, but they're reacting to Morrigan for narrative reasons(in character, they would be reacting on gut instinct). Wynne clearly doesn't think Anders is a maleficar, and Wynne also makes allusions to her own days as a wild young apprentice. I doubt that they're both out of touch to the extent that they'd suspect the average hedge witch of being a maleficar.


The definition of blood magic is finicky. Mind Control, for example, does not appear to use blood as a component or fuel source. Using it as a component alone is considered a gray area by many characters. I think it would be safe to say that what Morrigan did with the OGB would be considered forbidden magic at the least(another way to qualify as a maleficar).

[Xilizhra]

Why does this "maleficar" thing even matter? It's just a bunch of legal claptrap thrown around to justify the Chantry's tyranny. Some will use blood magic poorly, some will use it well, both will be condemned... I'd say Morrigan falls into the latter category, as do my PCs. It won't matter to me in DA3, anyway.

[Vandicus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Why does this "maleficar" thing even matter? It's just a bunch of legal claptrap thrown around to justify the Chantry's tyranny. Some will use blood magic poorly, some will use it well, both will be condemned... I'd say Morrigan falls into the latter category, as do my PCs. It won't matter to me in DA3, anyway.

The word distinguishes apostates from blood mages(and other forbidden magic users). Policy for blood mages is pretty much kill on sight, while an apostate is usually captured and taken to a Circle.

I don't view it as a term of propaganda personally, since if they wanted to use propaganda why bother to distinguish apostates from blood mages at all? 

[Xilizhra]

Vandicus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Why does this "maleficar" thing even matter? It's just a bunch of legal claptrap thrown around to justify the Chantry's tyranny. Some will use blood magic poorly, some will use it well, both will be condemned... I'd say Morrigan falls into the latter category, as do my PCs. It won't matter to me in DA3, anyway.

The word distinguishes apostates from blood mages(and other forbidden magic users). Policy for blood mages is pretty much kill on sight, while an apostate is usually captured and taken to a Circle.

I don't view it as a term of propaganda personally, since if they wanted to use propaganda why bother to distinguish apostates from blood mages at all? 

I'm just wondering why anyone on this site cares. Are you actually that invested in Chantry law?

[Vandicus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Why does this "maleficar" thing even matter? It's just a bunch of legal claptrap thrown around to justify the Chantry's tyranny. Some will use blood magic poorly, some will use it well, both will be condemned... I'd say Morrigan falls into the latter category, as do my PCs. It won't matter to me in DA3, anyway.

The word distinguishes apostates from blood mages(and other forbidden magic users). Policy for blood mages is pretty much kill on sight, while an apostate is usually captured and taken to a Circle.

I don't view it as a term of propaganda personally, since if they wanted to use propaganda why bother to distinguish apostates from blood mages at all? 

I'm just wondering why anyone on this site cares. Are you actually that invested in Chantry law?

Its cause we're nerds. LORE!! is our battle cry. What constitutes Chantry law is ambiguous in most cases and not really what we were discussing. We were talking about whether or not the term Maleficar is used as propaganda by the Chantry. 

[KainD]

Vandicus wrote...

Its cause we're nerds. LORE!! is our battle cry. 

Oh, don't worry, I'm sure Bioware will do their best so that you forget what the word lore means in DA3.
Just look at Mass effect. Biotics used to be able to move around objects, now they can fly, cause explosions and teleport. 

[Vandicus]

KainD wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Its cause we're nerds. LORE!! is our battle cry. 

Oh, don't worry, I'm sure Bioware will do their best so that you forget what the word lore means in DA3.
Just look at Mass effect. Biotics used to be able to move around objects, now they can fly, cause explosions and teleport. 

Biotics= Space Magic!

I'm not exactly bothered by it having a whole bunch of wacky powers. In the SW EU the Force can do that all as well.

[KainD]

Vandicus wrote...

Biotics= Space Magic!

I'm not exactly bothered by it having a whole bunch of wacky powers. In the SW EU the Force can do that all as well.

It was actually about chemistry at first, the element zero, and biology, how it reacts to electricity and the brain activity, and yeah. THEN it turned into space magic. 

[Vandicus]

KainD wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Biotics= Space Magic!

I'm not exactly bothered by it having a whole bunch of wacky powers. In the SW EU the Force can do that all as well.

It was actually about chemistry at first, the element zero, and biology, how it reacts to electricity and the brain activity, and yeah. THEN it turned into space magic. 

Technobabble is space magic. Its just pretending to be sciency rather than magic. ME and SW ain't no hard sci-fi series.

[TEWR]

Vandicus wrote...

Well I was going for knowng a powerful blood magic ritual usually suggests some familiarity with blood magic previously, as we don't usually see mages jump from base levels of blood magic use to extremely advanced rituals.

Ehh but even that's not really accurate. Flemeth instructed her on what to do with the ritual. Knowing the ritual doesn't necessarily mean she has an understanding of blood magic entirely.

Like I said, Morrigan only says that it can be called such. But even I wouldn't really classify it as such, as it doesn't operate at all like the Joining or spells like Hemorrhage.

Also I don't think that Wynne and Alistair are given to think all apostates are maleficar, but they're reacting to Morrigan for narrative reasons(in character, they would be reacting on gut instinct). Wynne clearly doesn't think Anders is a maleficar

Anders was a Grey Warden when they met, so he no longer really counted as an apostate. I'm not even certain Wynne knew who Anders was. There doesn't seem to be any indication of them having known each other. No nod from one to the other of their past at the Circle.

Anders knows who a Magi Warden is because he's seen him/her before, but no mention of Wynne. 

The definition of blood magic is finicky. Mind Control, for example, does not appear to use blood as a component or fuel source. Using it as a component alone is considered a gray area by many characters. I think it would be safe to say that what Morrigan did with the OGB would be considered forbidden magic at the least(another way to qualify as a maleficar).

Actually, maleficar as defined by the Divine(s) simply means a blood mage. It's not completely accurate a definition -- as the word itself translates to "one who is depraved", which says nothing of blood magic -- but it can apply to malicious blood mages.

So to call any practitioner of magic the Circle isn't authorized to teach a maleficar is actually conflating the term "maleficar" with "apostate".

Xilizhra wrote...

Why does this "maleficar" thing even matter? It's just a bunch of legal claptrap thrown around to justify the Chantry's tyranny. Some will use blood magic poorly, some will use it well, both will be condemned... I'd say Morrigan falls into the latter category, as do my PCs. It won't matter to me in DA3, anyway.

For science!!

Anyway, well, I'd say that we need to discuss the term to give it a proper definition. As of now, it's only halfway correct. As the actual term means "one who is depraved" I'd say it applies to anyone that is morally bankrupt.

Templars that abuse their power, blood mages that abuse blood magic, tyrannical nobles, etc.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 octobre 2012 - 04:18 .

[Vandicus]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Well I was going for knowng a powerful blood magic ritual usually suggests some familiarity with blood magic previously, as we don't usually see mages jump from base levels of blood magic use to extremely advanced rituals.

Ehh but even that's not really accurate. Flemeth instructed her on what to do with the ritual. Knowing the ritual doesn't necessarily mean she has an understanding of blood magic entirely.

Like I said, Morrigan only says that it can be called such. But even I wouldn't really classify it as such, as it doesn't operate at all like the Joining or spells like Hemorrhage.

Also I don't think that Wynne and Alistair are given to think all apostates are maleficar, but they're reacting to Morrigan for narrative reasons(in character, they would be reacting on gut instinct). Wynne clearly doesn't think Anders is a maleficar

Anders was a Grey Warden when they met. I'm not even certain Wynne knows who Anders is. 

The definition of blood magic is finicky. Mind Control, for example, does not appear to use blood as a component or fuel source. Using it as a component alone is considered a gray area by many characters. I think it would be safe to say that what Morrigan did with the OGB would be considered forbidden magic at the least(another way to qualify as a maleficar).

Actually, maleficar as defined by the Divine(s) simply means a blood mage. It's not completely accurate a definition -- as the word itself translates to "one who is depraved", which says nothing of blood magic -- but it can apply to malicious blood mages.

So to call any practitioner of magic the Circle isn't authorized to teach a maleficar is actually conflating the term "maleficar" with "apostate".

Knowing the ritual does have its implications though. Since it doesn't even(to our knowledge) have something that is overtly visible as blood magic, such as a component or power source, it seems odd that Morrigan would consider it a potential candidate for what blood magic is. From what the PC can see of it, Morrigan could easily say no its not blood magic. There's some reason Morrigan considers it possible blood magic.

I was kind of rolling on the belief that anyone who has escaped as many times from the Fereldan Circle as Anders has would be known by any long time members, like Wynne. Troublemakers and class clowns tend to be well known. After the heavy casualties during the Blight, I imagine that the reduced population would be even more like a very tiny village where everyone knows everyone else.

Do they? Isn't that the Latin meaning of the word, or is there some predecessor source which uses the term before the Chantry?

I'm having a little trouble parsing the last sentence, but it sounds like you're saying there's some other definition of maleficar that exists in Thedas that would hold a different meaning than what is established. Since apostates don't necessarily practice arts viewed as forbidden, its not exactly conflated the way the Chantry uses it either, is it?

[Shadow Fox]

Actually I'm pretty sure Maleficar refers to mages using magic not condoned/known by the Circle not just Blood Magic so Morrigan could qualify for the term as could any Dalish Keeper

[TEWR]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Actually I'm pretty sure Maleficar refers to mages using magic not condoned/known by the Circle not just Blood Magic so Morrigan could qualify for the term as could any Dalish Keeper

Incorrect. From the codex entry on Maleficarum:

Therefore, I say to you, they who work magic which dominates the minds and hearts of others, they have transgressed the Makers law. 

Also, Our Lady said to us, "Those who bring harm without provocation to the least of His children are hated and accursed by the Maker." And so it is made clear to me, as it should be to us all: That magic which fuels itself by harming others, by the letting of blood, is hated by the Maker.

--From The Sermons of Justinia I.

As I said earlier, this is only part of the meaning that it should have. It should apply to anyone who is morally bankrupt. Templar, Mage, Blood Mage, etc.

Vandicus wrote...

 There's some reason Morrigan considers it possible blood magic

Again, she doesn't consider it blood magic. Or if she does, she never explicitly says such. She says that people could call it such.

That speaks more to the mindset of other people then how she personally views it.

Vandicus wrote...

I'm having a little trouble parsing the last sentence, but it sounds like you're saying there's some other definition of maleficar that exists in Thedas that would hold a different meaning than what is established. Since apostates don't necessarily practice arts viewed as forbidden, its not exactly conflated the way the Chantry uses it either, is it?

"Maleficar" -- in the world of Thedas -- is a Tevinter word that translates to "one who is depraved". That's why I think it shouldn't only apply to malicious blood mages. 

In our world, maleficarum means "Witch", IIRC -- from the Malleus Maleficarum book, which translated to... The Witch's Hammer I believe.

Finally, the meaning of forbidden magic extends to more then just blood magic. For Thedas, "forbidden magic" means magic that isn't sanctioned by the Chantry to be taught at the Circles. That, however, does not mean it should be classified as magic that would denote a Mage as a Maleficar.

Because as I posted above, Maleficarum has been described to mean Blood Mages and only blood mages at this point in time. But I take issue with it being given only that meaning, because the actual Tevinter translation of the word doesn't mention blood mages. And neither does the Chant itself, explicitly. 

It can be interpreted to say such -- and it wouldn't be totally inaccurate -- but it would be a falsehood to say that's all it means.
 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 octobre 2012 - 05:56 .

[mesmerizedish]

Filament wrote...

You know you may be too invested in a fictional social justice movement when you start reappropriating fictional words to stick it to the fictional man.

I'm trying to figure out how this fits into your laughable ranger/shapeshifter agenda, but all I can come up with is "rebel scum."

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

You know you may be too invested in a fictional social justice movement when you start reappropriating fictional words to stick it to the fictional man.

Perhaps. 

Though in fairness, I'm not trying to stick it to the fictional man. Just saying that I think their interpretation isn't accurate.

[wsandista]

Filament wrote...

You know you may be too invested in a fictional social justice movement when you start reappropriating fictional words to stick it to the fictional man.

Still not as bad as the Tali sweat thing.

[Shadow Fox]

wsandista wrote...

Filament wrote...

You know you may be too invested in a fictional social justice movement when you start reappropriating fictional words to stick it to the fictional man.

Still not as bad as the Tali sweat thing.

...I don't wanna know.

[Warrior Craess]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Actually I'm pretty sure Maleficar refers to mages using magic not condoned/known by the Circle not just Blood Magic so Morrigan could qualify for the term as could any Dalish Keeper

according to the codex...

It is not uncommon for the neophyte to mistake apostates and maleficarum;as one and the same. Indeed, the Chantry, has gone to great lengths over the centuries to establish that this is so.

So while they are technically not the same, it appears that the chantry does indeed wish for people to judge them as the same. 

So yes your correct, the chantry would refer to the keepers and morrigan as apostates, knowing the general public would equate that to maleficar. Since thats exactly how the Chantry wants them to be viewed.