2177 réponses à ce sujet

[Warrior Craess]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...
yes they are treated like cattle. Know any other people that are forced to pass a test, or die? or if they fail to take the test, to be made into an automaton?

I wasn't aware cattle have to take tests...

refute the list of normal people I listed in a previous page, who were extremely dangerous and had no magic. normal every day joes.

I don't have to.
All those normal people can be easily stoped and have a differnet kind of power - power that depends on OTHERS or power that can be easily taken away.
Also, those poeple will never kill or hurt AGAINST THEIR OWN WILL....because they won't be possesed by demons.
Neither cna they tear open the veil and bring in more demons.

lol spoken like a true bigot. 

Cattle don't have to take a test in order to live past a certain time. Though they do get slaughtered to feed humans so I guess there is a test of some sorts... it's just a passive one. Which means that cattle may actually be treated better in some instances... thanks for pointing that out. 

Abominations are easily stopped. That your too dumb to use the right tool isn't the fault of the mages. 
The Veil becomes thin where there have been a lot of death, like the black marsh. Where it was thin before the baroness arrived.  Remind me again what kills more people than magic? ohh right, that would be wars for mundane reasons. Wars against the darkspawn, whose origins are unknown - since we have contradicting information in the codex. 

As for killing against their will, there is a reason that temporary insanity exists as a defence. The fact that it is over used doesn't change the fact that sometimes, people do actually kill against their own will. 

[Cultist]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Wait.. you had arguments?
Could have fooled me.

You had nothing then and you have nothing now.
And BTW - you are on my ignore list, but for some fraked up reason your posts still show up.

I may remind you that your fanfiction about Leliana and Chantry could not be concidered as a solid proof.

Nope.
I have no idea how you come to that conclusion.

Kingdoms standing = mages are not a problem? Sorry, that logic doesn't hold up.
That's like saiyng the plage was not a problem. I don't recall kingdoms actually falling, do you?

Plague was a problem, and kingdoms endured it. Factional kingdoms will endure free mages as well.

Like I said:
Pot. Kettle. Black.
Your words mean nothing to me.
Even moreso because you in your fantaical stupor, dont' even consider the possibiltiy of everything not being 100% serious.

We are discussing fictional conflict of fictional ideologies in fictional universe. And yet you are agitated to the point where you insult, swear and rage at everyone with different opinion around you. Put some cettle quote here, as you always do in every response.

You are as ignorant as I thought.
I doubt you ever laid eyes on any document in your life - you're just parroting what you heard.
Crusades were a war like any other, just somewhat bigger in size.

You mean Helmold of Bosau? Or Arnold of Lübeck? I will not mention Adam of Bremen because he started his chronicle too early to document any crusades.
But that you say that "Crusades were a war like any other, just somewhat bigger in size" speak values about your knowledge of the subject.

I have to follow rules in school too.
Gues that makes me a slave.

You can leave school any time you want and will not be hunted for it.

Hey, I'm just responding in kind. Mirroring your own crap argument.
Also, templars must fight because mages are dangerous and irresponsible.

I never said mages should kill each and every templar, only fight them until they leave mages alone. And you intend to kill every mage.
****************
Now, enough preaching to the fundies, aaaand, back on topic.

Blood Magic stands apart in DA universe. It's like Malkavians or Nosferatu in Vampire: The Masquerade, you play completely different for this clans. Malkavians got themselves a completely different dialogue set and Nosferatu is ugly as hell and can't interact normally with people. They have means to compensate this features and Blood magic should have it as well. You can't cut yourself in front of everyone in Val Royaulx, cast blood spells and then talk like nothing happened to Grand Cleric.

Modifié par Cultist, 14 octobre 2012 - 07:20 .

[Warrior Craess]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...
really mages are more dangerous that humans?

Yes. Much more.

 regular joe blow who falls asleep at the wheel of a car, and drives into a playground ful of kids? Or the people who set buildings on fire killing whole familes? Or the one who accidently burned down entire towns?  Or the scientists who developed explosives, followed by the scientists who developed nuclear weapons, Or how about the people who built and ran a place called Chernobyl? 3 mile island?

Stupid examples and a different kind and level of danger.

People have to take driving tests and there's police too. Also, every human has a car, so you can't exactly lock up every human, now can you?
Chernobyl? You do know thats a  man-made building and a disaster that shook the world and brought nuclear power under much scrutiny, since few understood just how dangerous it was.

A novice mage is of almost no use to a demon becuase the novice doesn't know enough magic.

Tell that to Connor.

And then you are over looking the fact that demons, don't even need a mage to cuase problems.

They need a torn veil - something mages are VERY good at doing.
And possesing a ,age makes them, much more dangerous, and able to bring in more of hteir kind.

yes chernobyl was a man made device, which high lights the dangers of men. normal people creating things sometimes beyond their control. Weird though that nuclear scientists arn't locked in a pen somewhere for being to dangerous, and practicing a science then most people will never understand. 

Connor was appealing because of his temporal power. He's a freaking prince. Whose lack of quality education made him vulnerable. Who political enemies made him vulnerable. That he was a mage simply made it a bit easier. 

BTW let's note that Jowan, the blood mage, used poison to attempt to kill Connor's dad. 

And no demons do not need a "torn Veil" to access the world. They need a thin veil. 
http://dragonage.wik...:_Arcane_Horror  please note...   Demons, of course, have no form in our world. When they enter, either where the  Veil is particularly thin or through blood magic summoning. 
Apparently the Veil can be thinned if enough death is present in a location. Places like the "Bone Pit". 

Once physically in our world they can possess a corpse or loiter around long enough to learn how to leech off of the psyche of people and become shades.

Modifié par Warrior Craess, 14 octobre 2012 - 07:28 .

[Warrior Craess]

General User wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

General User wrote...

As you yourself said, a mage's deliberate use of dangerous magic makes them comparable in terms of danger to explosives, which are materials that we most certainly do lock up and rightly so.  And the truth is, out in the wide, wide, cruel, mad world it's only a matter of time before most all mages deliberately turn to those dangerous magics.

While we don't "lock up everyone just because of what they might do" we, as a society, do take reasonable and prudent precautions against what people might do.  The more extreme nature of what a mage might do necessitates that more extreme precautions be taken.

First off prove your truth that inevitably mages will turn to dangerous magics. Granted some individuals will do so. Not all, and not the majority. 

Second no one is saying don't take precautions to deal with the dangers of magic.  We're saying don't lock every mage up as the only precaution. 

Train mages, educated them and the masses about what the potential good, and evils of magic are. Recruit moral people to be taught templar skills, train them in the theory of magic and detecive work, partner them up with moral mages, warriors are rogues, and form a force designed specifically to combat demons, adbominations and darkspawns.   

Remove the fear of magic and watch how much better everyones live gets. 

No the tevinter empire is no a demonstration of the removal of the fear of magic. The majestars rule through fear just as the chantry does.

It is a truth of human nature that people WILL respond to incentives in accordance with their means to do so.  Mages, if allowed to live free, would face all the incentives and temptations to act badly (ie, selfishly, stupidly, cruelly)  that anyone else does.  Only mages, by virtue of their powers, have the means to take extraordinary action on those incentives. 

Now the Templar Order didn't just lock up mages as the only precaution.  They also trained and helped to train young mages in the use of their powers, monitored the older ones for signs of corruption, provided testing to ensure that mages can indeed resist demons, and actively engaged in not only hunting down apostates and abominations, but in repairing and remedying the damage those creatures do to the rest of Thedas. Their approach was multi-layered. 

You keep coming back to "fear of magic" as though it were a bad thing.  The only way to remove the fear of magic is to replace it with ignorance of magic, which is far worse.  Magic is powerful and dangerous, average persons often cannot hope to stop it or even respond to it, and it is used as a conduit into Thedas by beings of pure, elemental malevolence.  People should be afraid of magic, mages not least.

Ignorance of magic doesn't equate to a lack of fear of it. In fact ignorance of anything results in the fear of it much more commonly than knowledge does. Give both mages and the general population knowledge - it works for societies like the Revaini Seers, the Dalish Keepers and the Chasind Shamans. 

Ignorance of magic is more dangerous than the knowledge of it. It leads to the inability to prepare for it, leaving oneself vulnerable.

If you must still have a force dedicated to providing protection against the worst possible outscomes of magic., so be it. However religion, especially an intolerant one, should never be placed in charge. Nothing is wrong with a group designed to watch out for rogue mages. But please note I said rogue mages. Mages unwilling to follow the laws of the nation. Not all mages. As there are societies that demonstrate that not all mages will seek more power. Places like Revain, the Dalish keepers, the Chasind shamans (and thereby the Almarri). 

You argue that things like the Chasind Shamans, the Elvish Keepers, or the Revain Seers doesn't upscale well. I counter with Thedas is a fairly primative world.  Their culture, their acceptance of magic would upscale well enough. 

As bad as the Tevinter Empire was, it's been soundly thrashed by 2 very different  armies. The Almarri plus Andraste's peasents, And the Qunari seem to be doing a darned fine job of it.  The Almarri were a shamanistic people, whose shaman served the people. How magical these shaman were is unclear, sadly. 

Lastly let's not forget how dangerous the world of thedas is. A land where dragons exist, Where humans and Elves only co-exist by the barest of threads, A world where curses hold serios power.  And your going to cripple one of the few advantages that humans have? 

Also you didn't actually prove that magics will turn to dangerous magics to get what they want. You just stated that tempation exists, and they face more temptation than others. 

[mousestalker]

It's way too early here in the morning. Even though I've seen this topic many, many times and read it correctly every time, this morning it seemed to say "Blond Maple. Great pergo should come with great price.

Let me be very clear. Outdated nineties laminated flooring should never be spendy.

As for the whole blood mage thingy, we have seen it hand waved to a very great extent in two games. In DA3 it either will or it won't be hand waved again. And there isn't much any of us can do about that, as it is a major plot point either way and odds are really good that the big plot points have already been decided upon and implemented.

TL:DNR: Flooring should be priced appropriately. Thrity eight pages is long enough.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Warrior Craess wrote...
lol spoken like a true bigot.

Now who's getting offensive?

Abominations are easily stopped. That your too dumb to use the right tool isn't the fault of the mages.

No, they are not.
Just because a player slaughetrs thems easily doesn't make them easy to stop. Bad game balance does not equal the reality of the setting.
All the fluff tells exactly the opposite - that abominatiosn are hard to stop.

As for killing against their will, there is a reason that temporary insanity exists as a defence. The fact that it is over used doesn't change the fact that sometimes, people do actually kill against their own will.

Now you're really reaching for it.

Mages are constantly at danger to be seduced/taken over by demons (in addition to any other tempatiosn and insanity normal peopel face).  Normal people are not.

***

You keep saying "humans are dangerous. We should lock them all up."
That is a redicolous argument. For two reasons:
1) It's practicly and logisticly impossible to lock up all humans. How would you do it? Who wouldbe doign the locking up?  How would it work? If you have an idea, I'm all ears.
2) The level and nature of danger are vastly different.


You then go on citing all the evil commited by humans. Mages are dangerous. So are humans. Therefore it makes no sense to treat them any different.
Guess what? Nukes are dangerous. So are conventional missiles! Guess that means we should use and treat both equally. Why lock up the nukes, why restrict their use, whyall the safety protocoals? Heck, every country should have nukes! NUKES FOR EVERYONE!

All of your examples are flawed.
Labs are founded and controlled by others, and have security protocols.
Dangerous materials and chemicals are controlled and restricted.
Soldiers have their weapons stored in the armory and are not allowed to take them with them out on the town.

Serial killers? Serial killers are normal humans.
The reason they killed so many isn't because they in themselves are more dangerous or capable  it's simply because they managed to avoid detection. In many of the cases the forensics wasn't so advanced, the killings took place in remote areas or the police simply misseda clue. Either way, once found out any Average Joe can take out a serial killer.
Smash on the head, punch to the windpipe, stab with a knife. Easy.

Now what if that serial killer was a mage?
With magic at his disposal he would a much, MUCH more effective serial killer. Not only because he would kill more efficiently, but because he could hide more efficiently too. Especially with blood magic. So easy to kill poeple and make it look like suicide.


If X-Men mutans were real, they would be locked up. Or killed.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Cultist wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Wait.. you had arguments?
Could have fooled me.

You had nothing then and you have nothing now.
And BTW - you are on my ignore list, but for some fraked up reason your posts still show up.

I may remind you that your fanfiction about Leliana and Chantry could not be concidered as a solid proof.

And yours can?
Please..you had nothing in that thread...nothing. Less than nothing.

Kingdoms standing = mages are not a problem? Sorry, that logic doesn't hold up.
That's like saiyng the plage was not a problem. I don't recall kingdoms actually falling, do you?

Plague was a problem, and kingdoms endured it. Factional kingdoms will endure free mages as well.

So you are saying if humantiy endures something then it's not a problem?

Geez, guess we should comeptlely stop protecting ourselves from natural disasters. After all, no matter how many of us are killed, some will survive, no?
A meteror? Hey, chances are some will survive. Don't try to stop it then. Not a problem.

Seriously... you jsut said yourself that Plague is a problem. As long as kingdoms endure free mages, it doesn't matter how many die...right?

Like I said:
Pot. Kettle. Black.
Your words mean nothing to me.
Even moreso because you in your fantaical stupor, dont' even consider the possibiltiy of everything not being 100% serious.

We are discussing fictional conflict of fictional ideologies in fictional universe. And yet you are agitated to the point where you insult, swear and rage at everyone with different opinion around you. Put some cettle quote here, as you always do in every response.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Also, wtf does cettle mean?

But that you say that "Crusades were a war like any other, just somewhat bigger in size" speak values about your knowledge of the subject.

You knowledge on the subject is none.
Citing a few names you fished of the wiki right now doesn't impress me.

Hey, I'm just responding in kind. Mirroring your own crap argument.
Also, templars must fight because mages are dangerous and irresponsible.

I never said mages should kill each and every templar, only fight them until they leave mages alone. And you intend to kill every mage.

Yes you did.
If you don't pay attention to your wording, why demands it from me?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Warrior Craess wrote...
yes chernobyl was a man made device, which high lights the dangers of men. normal people creating things sometimes beyond their control. Weird though that nuclear scientists arn't locked in a pen somewhere for being to dangerous, and practicing a science then most people will never understand.

A nucler scientist can't do anything  with that knoiwledge alone. He needs funding, materials, etc..
Nuclear power plants have been made rather safe and are under very strict scrutiny - and are not built in the middle of cities b.t.w.
Again, bad example.

Connor was appealing because of his temporal power. He's a freaking prince. Whose lack of quality education made him vulnerable. Who political enemies made him vulnerable. That he was a mage simply made it a bit easier.

Connor was appealing because he was a mge and he was powerfull.
We saw just how powerfull he was as an abomination - powerful lenough to brign to it's kneed a large, fortified town. Wit ha friggin castle and knights defending it.
What "temporal" power are yo utalking about? When was it ever excercised?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Warrior Craess wrote...
 As there are societies that demonstrate that not all mages will seek more power. Places like Revain, the Dalish keepers, the Chasind shamans (and thereby the Almarri).

Bad examples.
We aleady know why.
The Dalish system si in the crapper, Revain do have a Circle and the Chasind and like the Dalish. Crappy system.

You argue that things like the Chasind Shamans, the Elvish Keepers, or the Revain Seers doesn't upscale well. I counter with Thedas is a fairly primative world.  Their culture, their acceptance of magic would upscale well enough.

It doens't upscale AT ALL.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

WTF?

If all the charities and various welfare organizations (inculding the Church) of our world can't be everywhere and take care of everyone i nneed, what makes you think the Chatnry can?

Seriously man.

Because the Chantry has a presence in every village and every major city. They're involved in the politics of the realm. Divine Beatrix III was a personal friend of the Emperor of Orlais and often met with him. Divine Justinia V has even been involved in politics.

So does the Church have presence in each town/city. The welfare and humanitarian organizations operate globally. Yet there's still poverty. There's still people who dont' get help.

You cannot help everyone. Even moreso in the middle ages when there was more poverty to go around (and less resources).
You're incredibly ignorant is you can still claim such stupid things.

You put up standards no one can ever meet.

No, just shame on you. You want to call biased writing, try doing so when there isn't evidence to support the codex. 

The codex itself is biased.
Hear-say is biased.
And also, apples and oranges.

[Fallstar]

The term used by historians is potentially unreliable. The fact that a mage, or a templar, wrote a codex entry, does not mean you disregard everything in that entry. It just means you cross-reference it to other sources to check it's reliability. This codex stands up pretty well to cross examination, so stop going on about bias.

Also there are no churches in my nearest village or town. There is a small chapel in the town, that's it. The Chantry in Thedas has a far wider influence than real religions.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 14 octobre 2012 - 09:44 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

DuskWarden wrote...
Also there are no churches in my nearest village or town. There is a small chapel in the town, that's it. The Chantry in Thedas has a far wider influence than real religions.

You'll have a hard time proving that.

If you can someohow prove that the Chantry has churches in every single town and village.... go ahead.

Or that that somehow makes his point about Chantry being able to help everyone valid.

[Xilizhra]

In our world, maleficarum means "Witch", IIRC -- from the Malleus Maleficarum book, which translated to... The Witch's Hammer I believe.

Actually, "Maleficarum" means "of witches." Also, fun fact: the title of said book is inherently misogynist, which of course only represents the prevailing thought at the time. The gender-neutral term would be "maleficorum."

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

I think if we translate "Maleficarum" from Latin to English, it means Bad-doers, Evildeed(er)! .. and it's about being vicious.

[General User]

Warrior Craess wrote...

Ignorance of magic doesn't equate to a lack of fear of it. In fact ignorance of anything results in the fear of it much more commonly than knowledge does. Give both mages and the general population knowledge - it works for societies like the Revaini Seers, the Dalish Keepers and the Chasind Shamans.

Ignorance of magic is more dangerous than the knowledge of it. It leads to the inability to prepare for it, leaving oneself vulnerable.

You seem to be missing the point.  Anyone knowledgeable about magic should know to fear it and the dangers that come with it.  And for the non-mage majority, having knowledge of magic, especially of the fact that it can only be wielded by seemingly randomly born people who are otherwise unremarkable, would lead any rational person to conclude that mages should, at the very least, face compulsory education on the nature and dangers of magic, be restricted in their movements (forcibly if necessary), and for their entire natural lives their use of magic should be tightly regulated and closely monitored.

Warrior Craess wrote...

If you must still have a force dedicated to providing protection against the worst possible outscomes of magic., so be it. However religion, especially an intolerant one, should never be placed in charge. Nothing is wrong with a group designed to watch out for rogue mages. But please note I said rogue mages. Mages unwilling to follow the laws of the nation. Not all mages. As there are societies that demonstrate that not all mages will seek more power. Places like Revain, the Dalish keepers, the Chasind shamans (and thereby the Almarri). 

On the whole I agree that the Chantry should get out of the magic business.  Not because they're "intolerant" or any other such nonsense (because they aren't), but rather because public safety simply isn't the Chantry's responsibility in the first place... but that's a long term thing.

Just remember, the Chantry originally got the job of protecting mages from the public and the public from mages largely because of two things: no one else could do the job, and no one else wanted to do it.  Or rather the only other people who did want to do it wanted to do it by killing all the mages they could find.  And remember also, the Circles were set up by the Chantry as the result of a compromise with mages.  The system needs reform, better oversight, and a few tweaks here and there, but it is basically sound.

Warrior Craess wrote...

Lastly let's not forget how dangerous the world of thedas is. A land where dragons exist, Where humans and Elves only co-exist by the barest of threads, A world where curses hold serios power.  And your going to cripple one of the few advantages that humans have? 

If I could borrow an analogy from George Washington, I'd say that magic in Thedas is like a fire.  When it's contained and controlled, it is a vital component of civilized life.  When allowed to run wild, magic is a threat to all around it.

Warrior Craess wrote...

You argue that things like the Chasind Shamans, the Elvish Keepers, or the Revain Seers doesn't upscale well. I counter with Thedas is a fairly primative world.  Their culture, their acceptance of magic would upscale well enough.

As bad as the Tevinter Empire was, it's been soundly thrashed by 2 very different  armies. The Almarri plus Andraste's peasents, And the Qunari seem to be doing a darned fine job of it.  The Almarri were a shamanistic people, whose shaman served the people. How magical these shaman were is unclear, sadly. 

Based on the codex entries and Isabela's brief descriptions, Revain seems like an ongoing meltdown of a country.  The Chasind are explicitly designed and presented as a barbarian culture.  And the Dalish are little more than hostile nomads with a chip on their collective shoulder.  All three are in fact quite primitive, small, and unsophisticated compared to mainstream human and qunari civilizations in Thedas. 

So tell me, which band of Celtic goat herders should the Senate and People of Rome reorganize their society to mirror?

Warrior Craess wrote...

Also you didn't actually prove that magics will turn to dangerous magics to get what they want. You just stated that temptation exists, and they face more temptation than others. 

This is a speculative and hypothetical discussion.  If you want to see things proven, then I suggest a math book.  I can present my argument one more time.  Hopefully that will suffice.  Even more hopefully, you'll have an actual rejoinder.

Ahem…
Magic doesn't just represent a temptation, it represents an extreme temptation.  IE, the power of life and death and to bend others to your will.   It would take an extraordinary person to resist that.  And the thing is mages aren't extraordinary people, mages are ordinary people with extraordinary powers.  They don't have it in them to resist because no one does.  Thus mages have to be isolated from mainstream society, for their good and everyone else's.

Modifié par General User, 14 octobre 2012 - 02:30 .

[DPSSOC]

From the Codex;

Canitcle of Transfigurations says...

Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him.
Foul and corrupt are they
Who have taken His gift
And turned it against His children.
They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones.

From the Chant Maleficar applies to any mage apostate, blood mage, or Circle who uses magic to harm people.  Can we drop it now?

mousestalker wrote...
As for the whole blood mage thingy, we have seen it hand waved to a very great extent in two games. In DA3 it either will or it won't be hand waved again. And there isn't much any of us can do about that, as it is a major plot point either way and odds are really good that the big plot points have already been decided upon and implemented.

We can still hope. I actually don't see how any of the people's suggestions here would interfere with any big plot points that have been set though. Blood Magic is already powerful in cinematics and the lore, some just want that to translate better to the rest of the game. If a companion is rampantly anti-blood magic like Fenris or Anders have them say something if you pick up the BM spec, also I suggested a mechanics shift which while trickier still isn't interfering with the plot.

[Xilizhra]

You seem to be missing the point. Anyone knowledgeable about magic should know to fear it and the dangers that come with it. And for the non-mage majority, having knowledge of magic, especially of the fact that it can only be wielded by seemingly randomly born people who are otherwise unremarkable, would lead any rational person to conclude that mages should, at the very least, face compulsory education on the nature and dangers of magic, be restricted in their movements (forcibly if necessary), and for their entire natural lives their use of magic should be tightly regulated and closely monitored.

There's a difference between caution and fear. Caution can be based on logic, while fear is based on emotion. Caution is, of course, a good idea with magic, but fear gets in the way.
And I believe that expanding the sentinels' ranks will allow for mages to live more freely, with more chances for escorted trips (and potentially even lives) out of the Circle.

Just remember, the Chantry originally got the job of protecting mages from the public and the public from mages largely because of two things: no one else could do the job, and no one else wanted to do it. Or rather the only other people who did want to do it wanted to do it by killing all the mages they could find. And remember also, the Circles were set up by the Chantry as the result of a compromise with mages. The system needs reform, better oversight, and a few tweaks here and there, but it is basically sound.

The Chantry only did it because of the power, and they only pulled in the Inquisition because they didn't want unaffiliated vigilantes running around. And the system is not sound, it's an inherently tainted wreck and its destruction has been a long time coming.

Based on the codex entries and Isabela's brief descriptions, Revain seems like an ongoing meltdown of a country. The Chasind are explicitly designed and presented as a barbarian culture. And the Dalish are little more than hostile nomads with a chip on their collective shoulder. All three are in fact quite primitive, small, and unsophisticated compared to mainstream human and qunari civilizations in Thedas.

Be careful about making anthropologically unsound assumptions there, especially with words like "barbarian." I'd also favor all of those over the atrocity that is the Qun.

Ahem…
Magic doesn't just represent a temptation, it represents and extreme temptation. IE, the power of life and death and to bend others to your will. It would take an extraordinary person to resist that. And the thing is mages aren't extraordinary people, mages are ordinary people with extraordinary powers. They don't have it in them to resist because no one does. Thus mages have to be isolated from mainstream society, for their good and everyone else's.

Technically, most people have fairly easy access to instruments that can mean the power of life and death over other individuals. Just because magic is inherent doesn't mean that it's inherently more abusive; as a general rule, people are socialized well enough to restrain themselves. Also, plenty of mages we've seen are extraordinary people.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...
There's a difference between caution and fear. Caution can be based on logic, while fear is based on emotion. Caution is, of course, a good idea with magic, but fear gets in the way.

It can be perfectly logical to fear something.
Especially something like magic. Fear comes from knowing the danger.

And I believe that expanding the sentinels' ranks will allow for mages to live more freely, with more chances for escorted trips (and potentially even lives) out of the Circle.

Just rememebr that every guaridan/sentinel/templar has to be trained, equipped and fed.
And that money and resources have to come from somewhere.

The idea to have a bajjilion people looking out for mages is an interesting one, altough logisticly a redicolous one.

The Chantry only did it because of the power, and they only pulled in the Inquisition because they didn't want unaffiliated vigilantes running around. And the system is not sound, it's an inherently tainted wreck and its destruction has been a long time coming.

Good luck proving any of that.
Especially when it comes to proving the reasons behind something.

[Xilizhra]

It can be perfectly logical to fear something.
Especially something like magic. Fear comes from knowing the danger.

Fear is a purely emotional reaction. It has its uses, but not for determining policy.

Just rememebr that every guaridan/sentinel/templar has to be trained, equipped and fed.
And that money and resources have to come from somewhere.

The Chantry was stealing much of the Circle's revenue from enchantments and the like; without that, more money should be available. The Circle could also have its own donation collection powers.

Good luck proving any of that.
Especially when it comes to proving the reasons behind something.

I'm certainly not going to bother trying to prove anything to you.

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

Fear is a purely emotional reaction. It has its uses, but not for determining policy.

The Chantry was stealing much of the Circle's revenue from enchantments and the like; without that, more money should be available. The Circle could also have its own donation collection powers.

I'm certainly not going to bother trying to prove anything to you.

No, but there are very real, very dangerous aspects of magic, especially blood magic.

See, I don't recall any of the Lucrosians complaining about it.  Where are you drawing this information from?

No, I would like to know where it was stated that the Chantry created the Circle system soley for the power.  There was a lot of power involved, and it certainly appreciates it by the time of the games, but I don't believe there's any evidence to support your position; I'm sure Ethereal Writer Redux will correct me if I'm wrong.

But once again, blood magic should have be powerful, and have powerful consequences, if not in story than between companions.

[Xilizhra]

See, I don't recall any of the Lucrosians complaining about it. Where are you drawing this information from?

The Lucrosians never speak in any of the games or books at all.

No, I would like to know where it was stated that the Chantry created the Circle system soley for the power. There was a lot of power involved, and it certainly appreciates it by the time of the games, but I don't believe there's any evidence to support your position; I'm sure Ethereal Writer Redux will correct me if I'm wrong.

The Chantry itself exists purely for reasons of power, namely Drakon wanting religious justification for his empire, so he sanctioned one of the Andraste cults and made it official, then went to drive out everyone else. I hardly see why their behavior with the mages would be different.

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

The Lucrosians never speak in any of the games or books at all.

The Chantry itself exists purely for reasons of power, namely Drakon wanting religious justification for his empire, so he sanctioned one of the Andraste cults and made it official, then went to drive out everyone else. I hardly see why their behavior with the mages would be different.

Alright, so where are you getting the information from?

Was Drakon the one who made the deal?

[Xilizhra]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The Lucrosians never speak in any of the games or books at all.

The Chantry itself exists purely for reasons of power, namely Drakon wanting religious justification for his empire, so he sanctioned one of the Andraste cults and made it official, then went to drive out everyone else. I hardly see why their behavior with the mages would be different.

Alright, so where are you getting the information from?

Was Drakon the one who made the deal?

Drakon's thing was mentioned in the codex. And the Chantry already had control of the mages before the Circle system was set up, they were just marginalized even further back then.

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The Lucrosians never speak in any of the games or books at all.

The Chantry itself exists purely for reasons of power, namely Drakon wanting religious justification for his empire, so he sanctioned one of the Andraste cults and made it official, then went to drive out everyone else. I hardly see why their behavior with the mages would be different.

Alright, so where are you getting the information from?

Was Drakon the one who made the deal?

Drakon's thing was mentioned in the codex. And the Chantry already had control of the mages before the Circle system was set up, they were just marginalized even further back then.

So you're just making an assumption then.

[Xilizhra]

So you're just making an assumption then.

An inference.