2177 réponses à ce sujet

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

If they possess functioning logical thought processes, there should be a chance to at least talk to them about it. It worked well enough with Merrill in DA2, after all.

Talk to them about it, sure, do that.  You can explain yourself and why you felt it had to have been done, but that doesn't mean they're going to accept that or think better of you. 

General User wrote...

I'd prefer to just have companions just  leave if they find the Player Character so unacceptable.  Why retain a character in the lineup if either you can't stand them or they can't stand you?

They may have a need for your mission to progress, even if they believe your actions are wrong. Or they may need to be used later. 

Or if it is low enough, let them leave; I'm just suggesting a cap so it isn't the end all be all.

Edit: Fixed some of the formatting

Modifié par BlueMagitek, 14 octobre 2012 - 09:18 .

[ImperatorMortis]

I definitely want some consequences. I'm planning on being a Blood Mage/Spirit Healer, and I want people to atleast acknowledge that I'm cutting myself, and controlling my enemies minds.

Oh they should totally add the option to control some peoples minds in dialogue.

[KainD]

A LITTLE off topic again but:

One thing I don't get about blood magic. Does the person who's blood you are using for magic have to be willing? Why can you only heal yourself by tapping into your allies for example? Why can't you cut your enemy with a sword and then use THEIR blood for YOUR spells? Aka win/win.

[Wifflebottom]

KainD wrote...

A LITTLE off topic again but:

One thing I don't get about blood magic. Does the person who's blood you are using for magic have to be willing? Why can you only heal yourself by tapping into your allies for example? Why can't you cut your enemy with a sword and then use THEIR blood for YOUR spells? Aka win/win.

Big rule of video game design: Gameplay>Lore. Being able to use enemies to fuel spells would make the game way too easy and thus unot fun.

Modifié par Wifflebottom, 14 octobre 2012 - 10:29 .

[KainD]

Wifflebottom wrote...

Big rule of video game design: Gameplay>Lore. Being able to use enemies to fuel spells would make the game way too easy and thus unot fun.

K, do blood mages do that in lore? 

[Xilizhra]

KainD wrote...

A LITTLE off topic again but:

One thing I don't get about blood magic. Does the person who's blood you are using for magic have to be willing? Why can you only heal yourself by tapping into your allies for example? Why can't you cut your enemy with a sword and then use THEIR blood for YOUR spells? Aka win/win.

I think they do have to be willing, at least in a situation like combat.

[ImperatorMortis]

Myrmedus wrote...

I like the idea as long as it's implemented well and not in a hamfisted way. It needs to be implemented as a morally ambiguous power not "BLOOD MAGIC IZ EVIL!".

There should be both risks and comments made about its negativity as well as recognition if you do something self-sacrificing like using your own blood to heal someone.

This. Blood Magic shouldn't be outright "evil". It should be a gray area.

Using someones blood to heal you, using your own blood to heal someone else, and stuff like that.

It shouldn't be evil magic, more like. Neutral magic.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

KainD wrote...

A LITTLE off topic again but:

One thing I don't get about blood magic. Does the person who's blood you are using for magic have to be willing? Why can you only heal yourself by tapping into your allies for example? Why can't you cut your enemy with a sword and then use THEIR blood for YOUR spells? Aka win/win.

I think they do have to be willing, at least in a situation like combat.

Hadriana is stated to have used blood from slaves to make herself stronger in preparation for your attack (they are heavily implied to have died of it), and Caladrius outright kills his soldiers during his fight with you to heal himself. I don't think either situation had a willing victim.

[BlueMagitek]

Faerunner wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

I like the idea as long as it's implemented well and not in a hamfisted way. It needs to be implemented as a morally ambiguous power not "BLOOD MAGIC IZ EVIL!".

There should be both risks and comments made about its negativity as well as recognition if you do something self-sacrificing like using your own blood to heal someone.

This. Blood Magic shouldn't be outright "evil". It should be a gray area.

Using someones blood to heal you, using your own blood to heal someone else, and stuff like that.

It shouldn't be evil magic, more like. Neutral magic.

I personally still find it amazing how many mages that use "lawful" magic from their own mana or lyrium to torture and kill people (have you seen some of the Spirit and Entropy spells? Yikes!) are just frowned upon, whereas a mage that uses blood magic to heal or save someone is automatically labelled "OMG EVUL MALEFECARUM!!" 

I agree with Merrill, blood magic is just a tool. It's how you use it that determines whether it's good or bad.

Part of it, I believe, has to do with  how magic works.  Spirit and Entropy spells, while nasty, can be defeated by Templar.  Blood Magic can't.  It's unblockable.  It also boosts the strength of your magic in general.

There's also the mind control and demon summoning part of it (look at Avernus), which are nasty enough on their own.

[Xilizhra]

Part of it, I believe, has to do with how magic works. Spirit and Entropy spells, while nasty, can be defeated by Templar. Blood Magic can't. It's unblockable. It also boosts the strength of your magic in general.

Indeed. The templars propagandize against it because they fear it, not due to moral issues.

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

Part of it, I believe, has to do with how magic works. Spirit and Entropy spells, while nasty, can be defeated by Templar. Blood Magic can't. It's unblockable. It also boosts the strength of your magic in general.

Indeed. The templars propagandize against it because they fear it, not due to moral issues.

Blood Magic is right to be feared, not just by Templar but by any person.  An unblockable magic that cannot be defended against (except by hoping they run out of blood), which doesn't care where the blood comes from so long as it flows?  In addition to opening new, unblockable spells, increases the potentcy of normal spells?  Yes, definately something to be feared.

[TEWR]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...



So does the Church have presence in each town/city.

They're still not involved in politics and don't have any clout over the politicians/nobles of the land. Their help comes purely from their own pockets.

Since the inception of the separation of Church and State in the modern world, the Church has had little overt influence in regards to getting nations to help them take care of the poor.

The welfare and humanitarian organizations operate globally. Yet there's still poverty. There's still people who dont' get help.

That's due to a confluence of various factors, not all of which apply to Thedas' Chantry.

You cannot help everyone.

Well it's a good thing I never said the Chantry needed to solve the world's problems completely!

Even moreso in the middle ages when there was more poverty to go around (and less resources).
You're incredibly ignorant is you can still claim such stupid things.

You put up standards no one can ever meet.

Yes, because telling a damn King to let Elves join the military, or the Guard, or have them hired by other people, that's so damn hard.

I'm not asking them to save every soul out there. You're ignorant -- and blind -- if you think I'm claiming such a thing.

What I am asking them to do is to make an effort to help the people of all races. Have a divine decree made to a King saying Elves should be able to get better jobs, send some Mages to help the Dwarves who fight the Darkspawn eternally, give shelter to those poor and downtrodden that they can handle, or even recruiting Elves and Dwarven converts into the Templars.

So far, I've seen them helping only humans. Never Elves. Never Dwarves.

I'm not asking them to help everyone. Just help members of every race in Thedas instead of ignoring two and focusing on one race. Because... you know, the Church of our world doesn't turn aside anyone.

I really don't consider the Chantry's allowance of the Elves to live in filthy, squalid, decrepit areas of the City with no opportunity at living a decent life as an act of "generosity". If Elves got to join the Guard because the Chantry told nobles to start doing so, then I'd view the Chantry in a better light.

But please, do carry on with your assertions that I'm asking -- nay, demanding -- the Chantry be "the one shining pinnacle that solves all of Thedas' problems if they want my support". I won't stop you.

The codex itself is biased.

Not when there's evidence to support what it says.

Hear-say is biased.

This isn't hearsay. Wynne and Alistair both state Morrigan is a maleficar, possibly right in front of her. Hearsay is if I told you Larry killed a guy because he told me he did, but I never saw it or heard it happen myself.

Wynne and Alistair saying such -- the former to the Warden in conversation about their relationship -- doesn't constitute hearsay.

And also, apples and oranges.

Yeah right. You just can't concede that you're wrong on anything regarding Mages and Templars, can you?

Also, wtf does cettle mean?

That's funny considering half of your posts aren't exactly spelled with great grammar.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 octobre 2012 - 12:16 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

Part of it, I believe, has to do with how magic works. Spirit and Entropy spells, while nasty, can be defeated by Templar. Blood Magic can't. It's unblockable. It also boosts the strength of your magic in general.

Indeed. The templars propagandize against it because they fear it, not due to moral issues.

There's also the fact that it provides an easy answer to a complex moral question. According to the Codex, one of the early Divines was asked "What magic does the Maker forbid?" She had to interpret "Those who bring harm" and "Never to rule over him," and instead of waxing philosophical about intent like some of the Elder Scrolls fluff material does, she just sees that Blood Magic can do all of that and forbids it. (Of course, TES shows necromancy as absolutely forbidden, but the fluff establishes that the Mage's Guild in the Oblivion era, at least, called together prominent mages from both sides of the aisle and asked each of them to make a logical case without invoking the name of any god. This is what the Circle should be allowed to do [especially since unlike in TES, there's no actual proof of said god(s) available to the average person] though of course showing people acting like morons helps Bioware write a "dark fantasy.")

Edit: Just to clarify, I actually like the effect: that is roughly the sort of thing you see with Bible-interpretation. Yes, it's stupid, but it's realistically so.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 15 octobre 2012 - 12:27 .

[Xilizhra]

Blood Magic is right to be feared, not just by Templar but by any person. An unblockable magic that cannot be defended against (except by hoping they run out of blood), which doesn't care where the blood comes from so long as it flows? In addition to opening new, unblockable spells, increases the potentcy of normal spells? Yes, definately something to be feared.

Fear power all you like, but it doesn't make it evil.

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

Blood Magic is right to be feared, not just by Templar but by any person. An unblockable magic that cannot be defended against (except by hoping they run out of blood), which doesn't care where the blood comes from so long as it flows? In addition to opening new, unblockable spells, increases the potentcy of normal spells? Yes, definately something to be feared.

Fear power all you like, but it doesn't make it evil.

It's used for evil the vast majority of the time.

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

KainD wrote...

A LITTLE off topic again but:

One thing I don't get about blood magic. Does the person who's blood you are using for magic have to be willing? Why can you only heal yourself by tapping into your allies for example? Why can't you cut your enemy with a sword and then use THEIR blood for YOUR spells? Aka win/win.

I think they do have to be willing, at least in a situation like combat.

I'd dispute that, based on Caladrius. Would the Tevinter soldiers with him freely sacrifice their blood, considering it kills them?

I don't think you have to be willing. Perhaps a willing person makes it easier to use their blood -- or makes the blood for the spell stronger -- but I would say you can do it to unwilling people as well.

Which is something I'd like to see. I'd like to be able to use enemies' blood for spells, but perhaps in such a way that doesn't break the gameplay. Like perhaps introduce a "Blood Magic check" that determines whether your attempt to use an enemies' blood for healing or as fuel for a spell is successful or not.

I dunno.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Blood Magic is right to be feared, not just by Templar but by any person. An unblockable magic that cannot be defended against (except by hoping they run out of blood), which doesn't care where the blood comes from so long as it flows? In addition to opening new, unblockable spells, increases the potentcy of normal spells? Yes, definately something to be feared.

Fear power all you like, but it doesn't make it evil.

It's used for evil the vast majority of the time.

And for good occasionally. It's not absolutely useless to anyone of good intent just because they have such intent.

[BlueMagitek]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

And for good occasionally. It's not absolutely useless to anyone of good intent just because they have such intent.

Yes, but it offers mind control and demon summoning.  And once you know it, it isn't going away. 

And those examples are far and few in between.  So far I have Jowan as harmless and Hawke's father.  Any other examples?

[TEWR]

Merrill. Arguably Decimus. The Blood Mages that the Wardens have in their ranks -- not Avernus or Janeka, but the ones that use the magic to fight Darkspawn.

Arguably Avernus as well, though extremely so.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

And for good occasionally. It's not absolutely useless to anyone of good intent just because they have such intent.

Yes, but it offers mind control and demon summoning.  And once you know it, it isn't going away. 

And those examples are far and few in between.  So far I have Jowan as harmless and Hawke's father.  Any other examples?

Potentially Hawke and the Warden. And just because you know it, and can't unknow it, doesn't mean you have to use it.

[ForThessia]

^she says it's evil, so it must be.......

[BlueMagitek]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Merrill. Arguably Decimus. The Blood Mages that the Wardens have in their ranks -- not Avernus or Janeka, but the ones that use the magic to fight Darkspawn.

Arguably Avernus as well, though extremely so.

I don't know about Merrill; she subtly manipulated events so that her Keeper was off her back, and if she played her cards right, her entire clan destroyed.  I'm not sure how you can add a "good" check to someone like that.

Perhaps Decimus; did he engage in demon summoning or mind manipulation?  I don't recall. 

Your Grey Wardens, though, yes, they do use it for good when it is used against Darkspawn.  Mostly.  But once again, they have a chain on them worse than the Circle, don't they?

Edit:

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Potentially Hawke and the Warden. And just because you know it, and can't unknow it, doesn't mean you have to use it.

PCs don't count, they aren't bound by the rules.

Modifié par BlueMagitek, 15 octobre 2012 - 12:21 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I'll give you that one. Now what about the grey area blood magic that Finn uses in Witch Hunt? And that the Templars also use to track mages? (According to Gaider, that totally counts.)

[TEWR]

General User wrote...

The people of Darktown (who weren't vicious criminals) were as bitter as they were desperate

That's not to say they would've refused help though. I'm sure if the Chantry offered them food, shelter, and maybe even helped them get a job they'd take it.

 And, not to put too fine a point on it, but if I lived in Kirkwall, I wouldn't go to Darktown either unless I had a half-dozen blokes with me, all of us armed.

Oh I could definitely understand that. I wouldn't want to go to Darktown either unless I had some people backing me up as well. So long as the priest was there and trying to help people though, I'd be content.

And I wouldn't call Lowtown and it's people "poor" so much as "working-class."  Now I'm not sure if the Chantry of Andraste has a doctrine equivalent to The Widow's Offering, but it seems like the kind of thing they would embrace.

I wouldn't be surprised if there was some similar story in Thedas either.