2177 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

I don't know about Merrill; she subtly manipulated events so that her Keeper was off her back, and if she played her cards right, her entire clan destroyed. I'm not sure how you can add a "good" check to someone like that.

Marethari was a vile traitor to the clan as a whole and to Merrill, and Merrill manipulated nothing.

[BlueMagitek]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I'll give you that one. Now what about the grey area blood magic that Finn uses in Witch Hunt? And that the Templars also use to track mages? (According to Gaider, that totally counts.)

Those are also fine examples. However, I have yet to see the Templar use blood magic for mind manipulation and demon summoning, or sacrifice others to empower themselves, which many of the mages we've seen actually use blood magic do. 

Thinking on it, it really isn't fair, that it be restricted based on your status as a mage or not, but when one group can do so much more than the other, I don't see a problem with its restriction.

Xilizhra wrote...

Marethari was a vile traitor to the clan as a whole and to Merrill, and Merrill manipulated nothing.

I'm sure she was.  Except that Merrill the blood mage is standing over the corpses of her clan with the human she forced into her servitude.  Very tricky, that one.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Hawke is perfectly free to refuse to help her*, and later in the game can even off her. I don't call that servitude.

Edit: Well, what I read on the wiki at least. I get the impression DAII isn't always perfect about letting you refuse quests, but I think I remember reading that you can refuse this one.

Edit 2: Does Tranquility count as mind manipulation? I don't think it requires blood, but that distinction wasn't mentioned in the above post. Also, there are mind spells available without blood magic. Mostly spirit and entrophy, I think. The templars don't seem to forbid those. (I can't see the previous posts from this screen, so I don't know if that was mentioned.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 15 octobre 2012 - 12:39 .

[ForThessia]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't know about Merrill; she subtly manipulated events so that her Keeper was off her back, and if she played her cards right, her entire clan destroyed. I'm not sure how you can add a "good" check to someone like that.

Marethari was a vile traitor to the clan as a whole and to Merrill, and Merrill manipulated nothing.

How was Marethari a traitor to the Dalish? 

[BlueMagitek]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Hawke is perfectly free to refuse to help her*, and later in the game can even off her. I don't call that servitude.

Edit: Well, what I read on the wiki at least. I get the impression DAII isn't always perfect about letting you refuse quests, but I think I remember reading that you can refuse this one.

Edit 2: Does Tranquility count as mind manipulation? I don't think it requires blood, but that distinction wasn't mentioned in the above post. Also, there are mind spells available without blood magic. Mostly spirit and entrophy, I think. The templars don't seem to forbid those. (I can't see the previous posts from this screen, so I don't know if that was mentioned.)

Well, she was always pretty sloppy with that piece of mirror.  <_<

Tranquility is a very unfortunate thing.  Unfortunately it is only one of the surefire ways of seperating a mage and their powers (the other being, as we learn in Leliana's song, the removal of their hands).  Remember, Spirit and Entropy spells can be resisted, Blood Magic spells can't.  There's also more to blood magic spells in lore than in gameplay; Avernus notes how he should have pushed the nobles more than he did. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

She became an abomination to protect one person who had already refused that protection, as opposed to staying alive to protect and guide a clan that needed it. Not to mention that what Marethari feared would happen (as I understand it, it was that the demon would take physical form and attack Merrill) really loses a lot of its danger when you consider who Merrill is and who she's accompanied by.

[BlueMagitek]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

She became an abomination to protect one person who had already refused that protection, as opposed to staying alive to protect and guide a clan that needed it. Not to mention that what Marethari feared would happen (as I understand it, it was that the demon would take physical form and attack Merrill) really loses a lot of its danger when you consider who Merrill is and who she's accompanied by.

Demons are a lot more badass in lore than in gameplay.  A Pride Demon taking physical form in Thedas is bad news.  As an abomination, somewhat less so.

[TEWR]

I don't know about Merrill; she subtly manipulated events so that her Keeper was off her back, and if she played her cards right, her entire clan destroyed. I'm not sure how you can add a "good" check to someone like that

She never sought the Keeper's death or the clan's death.

Perhaps Decimus; did he engage in demon summoning or mind manipulation? I don't recall.

The former, yes. The latter, no. It's a discussion I've had before where, based on what I see, I view him as a very heroic character.

I suppose to properly define him, he might be an Anti-Villain to some people. Heroic goals, not so noble methods on how to achieve them.

But once again, they have a chain on them worse than the Circle, don't they?

Eh, that'd depend on who you ask.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

She became an abomination to protect one person who had already refused that protection, as opposed to staying alive to protect and guide a clan that needed it. Not to mention that what Marethari feared would happen (as I understand it, it was that the demon would take physical form and attack Merrill) really loses a lot of its danger when you consider who Merrill is and who she's accompanied by.

Demons are a lot more badass in lore than in gameplay.  A Pride Demon taking physical form in Thedas is bad news.  As an abomination, somewhat less so.

I thought abominations were supposed to be stronger? Since their magic was a gestalt based on both sources?

As for the above stuff, the hands thing seems like a mage might be able to work around it, maybe. If it even hurts them magically. I kind of got the impression that that was just ignorant guards who didn't know what they were talking about, suggesting a solution that may or may not work. Nor does that neccesarily interfere with a demon who takes over.

As for the Tranquility, I'm not making the moral argument. I agree with most of what you said. I'm just saying it might count as mind manipulation.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 15 octobre 2012 - 12:56 .

[BlueMagitek]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

She never sought the Keeper's death or the clan's death.

The former, yes. The latter, no. It's a discussion I've had before where, based on what I see, I view him as a very heroic character.

I suppose to properly define him, he might be an Anti-Villain to some people. Heroic goals, not so noble methods on how to achieve them.

Eh, that'd depend on who you ask.

You say that, but she's more than happy to pursue their downfall with the mirror that killed her bros.

Well, demon summoning tends to go extremely poorly for at least one party involved. I would hesitate to call that valiant.  How about we not put him on either side of 'good' or 'bad' blood mages and leave him in a grey area then?

Well, you know, the entire tainted blood and doom to ghoulhood (unless you're a badass like Avernus and use blood magic to balance out the taint) is a bit worse than 'stay in this tower and no blood magic'.

[TEWR]

I thought abominations were supposed to be stronger? Since their magic was a gestalt based on both sources?

In lore, yes. In gameplay, all Abominations are drunken brutes that don't use any magic.

[Xilizhra]

Well, demon summoning tends to go extremely poorly for at least one party involved. I would hesitate to call that valiant. How about we not put him on either side of 'good' or 'bad' blood mages and leave him in a grey area then?

No. There's no reason to allow your statistical cooking to continue when you've already lied about Merrill.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I think he has a point. Does it ever go right? (Apart from Tarohne, who is a statistical outlier unless you can find someone else, and also does a good job proving a point he made previously.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 15 octobre 2012 - 01:02 .

[BlueMagitek]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I thought abominations were supposed to be stronger? Since their magic was a gestalt based on both sources?

As for the above stuff, the hands thing seems like a mage might be able to work around it, maybe. If it even hurts them magically. I kind of got the impression that that was just ignorant guards who didn't know what they were talking about, suggesting a solution that may or may not work. Nor does that neccesarily interfere with a demon who takes over.

As for the Tranquility, I'm not making the moral argument. I agree with most of what you said. I'm just saying it might count as mind manipulation.

From my understanding, that's an Arcane horror.  A demon can exist without a host as a Shade, but I thought what was special about the mirror was that it would let the demon step over without needing that Shade step, at full Fade power.

I would agree with that, I was just altering the alternative given to us.

Well, I thought it just involved a lyrium brand?  I don't remember.  It seems to be essentially a lobotomy of sorts.  But in this case, there's two options, death or tranquility (as it is, once again, the only surefire way of removing a mage from their powers).

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

BlueMagitek wrote...

From my understanding, that's an Arcane horror.  A demon can exist without a host as a Shade, but I thought what was special about the mirror was that it would let the demon step over without needing that Shade step, at full Fade power.

My impression is that the Shade is not a unique interaction with the mortal realm, but rather a Sloth Demon in its true form. An abomination of Sloth, I believe, would be more powerful than that, except that the Gameplay is segregated from the Story. As for the mirror's power, I thought it would just let the demon enter the world at its full power orders of magnitude more easily.

I would agree with that, I was just altering the alternative given to us.

Well, I thought it just involved a lyrium brand?  I don't remember.  It seems to be essentially a lobotomy of sorts.  But in this case, there's two options, death or tranquility (as it is, once again, the only surefire way of removing a mage from their powers).

As I previously mentioned, I didn't think you mentioned blood magic mind manipulation. I thought you mentioned mind manipulation by the templars. That, I gave an example of. Maybe. Is a lobotomy mind manipulation? And arguably for a good cause, too.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 15 octobre 2012 - 01:10 .

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, demon summoning tends to go extremely poorly for at least one party involved. I would hesitate to call that valiant. How about we not put him on either side of 'good' or 'bad' blood mages and leave him in a grey area then?

No. There's no reason to allow your statistical cooking to continue when you've already lied about Merrill.

Yes, I'm sure we can go back to mind controlling our companions to agree with whatever we do later. 

Alternate Character Interpretation.  Why do you think Merrill isn't intelligent enough to set it up?  It all makes sense now.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I think he has a point. Does it ever
go right? (Apart from Tarohne, who is a statistical outlier unless you
can find someone else, and also does a good job proving a point he made
previously.)

Hawke's Dad and Jowan seem to get along alright. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I think he has a point. Does it ever
go right? (Apart from Tarohne, who is a statistical outlier unless you
can find someone else, and also does a good job proving a point he made
previously.)

Hawke's Dad and Jowan seem to get along alright. 

I meant the demon summoning thing. Does Malcom ever do that? I thought he just sealed them away.

Edit: And why do I think Merrill isn't smart enough to set all that up? Because it takes years, and revolves around playing everyone in the exact correct way. Anyone smart enough to set that up would realize that Hawke might blow it by talking down the clan when they come to lynch them (which is an option in-game) and think of a smarter way to work this.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 15 octobre 2012 - 01:17 .

[BlueMagitek]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...


My impression is that the Shade is not a unique interaction with the mortal realm, but rather a Sloth Demon in its true form. An abomination of Sloth, I believe, would be more powerful than that, except that the Gameplay is segregated from the Story. As for the mirror's power, I thought it would just let the demon enter the world at its full power orders of magnitude more easily.

As I previously mentioned, I didn't think you mentioned blood magic mind manipulation. I thought you mentioned mind manipulation by the templars. That, I gave an example of. Maybe. Is a lobotomy mind manipulation? And arguably for a good cause, too.

Is it?  I suppose I must conceed the point then.  Though, the Fade Beast (who is probably a Pride Demon taken form in Thedas) is pretty badass. ~_^

Hmm?  I thought that was one of my reasons the entire topic.  Blood magic allows for a different sort of mind control than the other two schools. 

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I meant the demon summoning thing. Does Malcom ever do that? I thought he just sealed them away.

Oh.  I do not recall a point where demon summoning went as planned (unless the plan was for failure).  

[amggrunt]

Well you have too summon them first, then trap them. Atleast thats how it works in most fantasy stuff.

Edit: I just remembered. You can summon demons without blood magic. You do it in origins during the broken circle part.

Modifié par amggrunt, 15 octobre 2012 - 01:22 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Taronhe's summoning worked as planned. It's the rest of the plan that bit her. But like I said, outlier.

[BlueMagitek]

amggrunt wrote...

Well you have too summon them first, then trap them. Atleast thats how it works in most fantasy stuff.

Dragon Age Malconvokers must suck. ~_~"

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

amggrunt wrote...


Edit: I just remembered. You can summon demons without blood magic. You do it in origins during the broken circle part.

Technically, I don't think those are demons. Not that I understand what the difference is in this instance. Probably that they have no interest in taking a host.

Edit: Or, if the Chantry wanted to make some logicians cry, (I've noticed they aren't always above this) they could say that they aren't demons, because they aren't summoned with blood magic, which a lot of templars decry because it let's you summon demons.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 15 octobre 2012 - 01:30 .

[amggrunt]

A spirit or demon are really the same thing in dragon age, Jjust demons tend to reflect things most mortals find too be sins, while spirits tend to embody the things we find most noble about are selves. Of course this does not mean a spirit will always be good. 
  
The line between Justive and Vengeance, or Valor and stupid, can be very thin.

[BlueMagitek]

Faerunner wrote...

Ah, so that's what it all boils down to. "I can't control it, therefore it's evil." Good to know.
 

It's actually "I can't fight against it, therefore it should be restricted".  The Litany is literally the only defense they have, and it doesn't help once the blood magic takes effect.