2177 réponses à ce sujet

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

Ah, so that's what it all boils down to. "I can't control it, therefore it's evil." Good to know.
 

It's actually "I can't fight against it, therefore it should be restricted".  The Litany is literally the only defense they have, and it doesn't help once the blood magic takes effect. 

And that it is against a hastily done interpretation of their religion, as I mentioned on the previous page of posts.

Edit: Or the page before that, since it seems to have started a new page on this exact post.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 15 octobre 2012 - 01:44 .

[TEWR]

a misunderstanding occurred! Damn the interwebz!

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 octobre 2012 - 02:41 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

And leading by example is even harder. Letting Elves join the Chantry ranks as lay brothers and sisters, initiates, clerics, chanters, and even templars and then telling said Kings and Guards, "See? I'm doing it. Now it's your turn," is obviously asking too much.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying they need to go the whole nine yards and it'll be done easily. I'm saying the Chantry should do something. Anything.

Allow Elves to join the Chantry as priests or Templars as anything. That'd be enough for me.

Or alternatively, tell the nobles to allow the Elves to recruit Elves for certain things -- like Loghain did with the Night Elves in the war against Orlais. Not leading by example, but issuing a divine decree that must be followed.

I'm not saying they need to do 24 things for Elves and Dwarves and it'll be done easily. Only a few things that would help the Elves and Dwarves live better lives.

If there are literally no elven brothers, that's just ridiculous. Especially considering that the Chantry at Redcliffe used to have a dwarven brother, except that now he's the head of the Orzammar Chantry. (If you help him.) Seriously though, the dwarves are still mostly what the Chantry would consider heathen. Most elves, and all of the City Elves, are Andrastian. That has been the case for centuries. If either is untrustworthy, it ought to be the dwarves.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 15 octobre 2012 - 01:49 .

[amggrunt]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

And leading by example is even harder. Letting Elves join the Chantry ranks as lay brothers and sisters, initiates, clerics, chanters, and even templars and then telling said Kings and Guards, "See? I'm doing it. Now it's your turn," is obviously asking too much.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying they need to go the whole nine yards and it'll be done easily. I'm saying the Chantry should do something. Anything.

Allow Elves to join the Chantry as priests or Templars as anything. That'd be enough for me.

Or alternatively, tell the nobles to allow the Elves to recruit Elves for certain things -- like Loghain did with the Night Elves in the war against Orlais. Not leading by example, but issuing a divine decree that must be followed.

I'm not saying they need to do 24 things for Elves and Dwarves and it'll be done easily. Only a few things that would help the Elves and Dwarves live better lives.

If there are literally no elven brothers, that's just ridiculous. Especially considering that the Chantry at Redcliffe used to have a dwarven brother, except that now he's the head of the Orzammar Chantry. (If you help him.) Seriously though, the dwarves are still mostly what the Chantry would consider heathen. Most elves, and all of the City Elves, are Andrastian. That has been the case for centuries. If either is untrustworthy, it ought to be the dwarves.

This is why most elves side with the Qunari I think. They are equal too all qunari in the same role/position.

[Wifflebottom]

KainD wrote...

Wifflebottom wrote...

Big rule of video game design: Gameplay>Lore. Being able to use enemies to fuel spells would make the game way too easy and thus unot fun.

K, do blood mages do that in lore? 

Yes tevinter magisters used slaves to fuel blood magic. I assume they were not willing sacrifices.

[KiwiQuiche]

Blood magic is simply a tool. It all depends on how you use it, as with anything, even a sword or shield.

Personally I can't stand a paper-cut, much less stabbing myself in the chest like my Blood Mage Hawke does so I wouldn't be one in real life. I assume Blood Mages have a pretty high pain tolerence XD

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 15 octobre 2012 - 02:33 .

[TEWR]

I was being sarcastic toward the person you were arguing against, I agree with you. =)

Ah. Damn interwebz preventing me from knowing sarcasm through text!

[Shadow Fox]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Blood Magic is right to be feared, not just by Templar but by any person. An unblockable magic that cannot be defended against (except by hoping they run out of blood), which doesn't care where the blood comes from so long as it flows? In addition to opening new, unblockable spells, increases the potentcy of normal spells? Yes, definately something to be feared.

Fear power all you like, but it doesn't make it evil.

It's used for evil the vast majority of the time.

And for good occasionally. It's not absolutely useless to anyone of good intent just because they have such intent.

for someone of "good" intent would'nt it just be better to become a Spirit Healer?

[DPSSOC]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Blood magic is simply a tool. It all depends on how you use it, as with anything, even a sword or shield.

Yes and like a sword it serves no benign purpose.  A sword is made to hurt/kill things, that's it.  It's not intended to double as a pry bar for opening crates, or a spade; it's a weapon, it kills people.  Blood Magic is a similarily one note tool.  Have we seen a single benevolent Blood Magic power?  Is there one thing that can only be done with Blood Magic that doesn't involve doing terrible things to other people?

Yes you can use Blood Magic to fuel benign spells but the same could be done with lyrium and much less harm to yourself or someone else.  Blood Magic has no benign purpose, all powers associated with it are malevolent in nature.  Is that really a tool you want people using?

[TEWR]

DPSSOC wrote...

Have we seen a single benevolent Blood Magic power?

The Joining, Avernus' manipulation of the Taint in his blood, but most importantly of all.... the healing of withered crops.

Faerunner wrote...

I thought being a Spirit Healer was just as difficult since you have to let yourself be possessed by a Fade Spirit in order to become one, and being possessed by a spirit is considered just as automatically evil as using blood magic?

Not strictly accurate. You don't have to be possessed by a Fade Spirit to be a Spirit Healer, but you do have to commune with them and establish a relationship where they'll help you.

Ideally, with them staying where they are and you being fine on the other end.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 octobre 2012 - 02:58 .

[DPSSOC]

Faerunner wrote...

Yes you can use Blood Magic to fuel benign spells but the same could be done with lyrium and much less harm to yourself or someone else.  Blood Magic has no benign purpose, all powers associated with it are malevolent in nature.  Is that really a tool you want people using?

You just admitted blood magic can be used for benign purposes. Everything you say afterwards is a contradiction.

Yes just like I can use a sword as a shovel, or a pry bar, or a hammer if I choose to, but that's not what it's for.

[BlueMagitek]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


The Joining, Avernus' manipulation of the Taint in his blood, but most importantly of all.... the healing of withered crops.

But isn't Avernus' manipulation of the taint only necessary becuase of blood magic?

[KainD]

Avernus is a genius, practically can make all grey warden mages be immune to becoming abominations if they are unwilling. Someone needs to continue his researches.

[Xilizhra]

DPSSOC wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

Yes you can use Blood Magic to fuel benign spells but the same could be done with lyrium and much less harm to yourself or someone else.  Blood Magic has no benign purpose, all powers associated with it are malevolent in nature.  Is that really a tool you want people using?

You just admitted blood magic can be used for benign purposes. Everything you say afterwards is a contradiction.

Yes just like I can use a sword as a shovel, or a pry bar, or a hammer if I choose to, but that's not what it's for.

How so? Blood magic can perform all kinds of benign effects far more efficiently, with far fewer expended resources, at the cost of easily healed damage to oneself.

[BlueMagitek]

KainD wrote...

Avernus is a genius, practically can make all grey warden mages be immune to becoming abominations if they are unwilling. Someone needs to continue his researches.

Avernus is a genius, but I'm not sure if his works could apply to non Mage Wardens (if it's a self manipulation through blood magic thing or if it can be used for other people; we also don't know how really what he does to maintain it).

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

Yes you can use Blood Magic to fuel benign spells but the same could be done with lyrium and much less harm to yourself or someone else.  Blood Magic has no benign purpose, all powers associated with it are malevolent in nature.  Is that really a tool you want people using?

You just admitted blood magic can be used for benign purposes. Everything you say afterwards is a contradiction.

Yes just like I can use a sword as a shovel, or a pry bar, or a hammer if I choose to, but that's not what it's for.

How so? Blood magic can perform all kinds of benign effects far more efficiently, with far fewer expended resources, at the cost of easily healed damage to oneself.

Again not denying it can do that, just like I don't deny a sword makes a half decent pry bar, but that doesn't change what it is.  What is Blood Magic?  It's boiling people's blood, controlling their minds, stealing their life to fuel your power, and summoning demons.  That's what Blood Magic is, that's what it does, the fact it can do other things doesn't change it's primary function.  A gun isn't any less of a gun, any less a tool for the sole purpose of ending life, because you choose to use it as a back scratcher.

[KainD]

BlueMagitek wrote...

KainD wrote...

Avernus is a genius, practically can make all grey warden mages be immune to becoming abominations if they are unwilling. Someone needs to continue his researches.

Avernus is a genius, but I'm not sure if his works could apply to non Mage Wardens (if it's a self manipulation through blood magic thing or if it can be used for other people; we also don't know how really what he does to maintain it).

Yes see? We don't know. What does that mean? More reaserch is needed. Btw somehow his reaserch improves all grey wardens rogues/warriors. We just don't know how it works. 

[BlueMagitek]

KainD wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

KainD wrote...

Avernus is a genius, practically can make all grey warden mages be immune to becoming abominations if they are unwilling. Someone needs to continue his researches.

Avernus is a genius, but I'm not sure if his works could apply to non Mage Wardens (if it's a self manipulation through blood magic thing or if it can be used for other people; we also don't know how really what he does to maintain it).

Yes see? We don't know. What does that mean? More reaserch is needed. Btw somehow his reaserch improves all grey wardens rogues/warriors. We just don't know how it works. 

That unlocks some of the Taint's talents, but I was referring to his ability to push back the taint and sustain himself for centuries.

Edit:

And his research was definately a no no, what with the torture of his Warden allies, presumably against their will.

Modifié par BlueMagitek, 15 octobre 2012 - 03:44 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

DPSSOC wrote...

Again not denying it can do that, just like I don't deny a sword makes a half decent pry bar, but that doesn't change what it is.  What is Blood Magic?  It's boiling people's blood, controlling their minds, stealing their life to fuel your power, and summoning demons.  That's what Blood Magic is, that's what it does, the fact it can do other things doesn't change it's primary function.  A gun isn't any less of a gun, any less a tool for the sole purpose of ending life, because you choose to use it as a back scratcher.

According to the Codex (which isn't neccesarily canon in a case like this, but is at the moment the best authority I can think of) blood magic was originally just using blood to increase your own power. It wasn't a gun, more like a more effective metal for tools. The Tevinters only discovered later that there were certain (usually malevolent) things that only blood magic can do. (Sort of like how there's certain things you want certain metals to create.)

Not all of it is malevolent, either. Tracking seems to be much easier using blood magic.

And even if it was just a gun, so what? Certain things need to be shot. The Darkspawn, for instance.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 15 octobre 2012 - 03:52 .

[Warrior Craess]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

Ah, so that's what it all boils down to. "I can't control it, therefore it's evil." Good to know.
 

It's actually "I can't fight against it, therefore it should be restricted".  The Litany is literally the only defense they have, and it doesn't help once the blood magic takes effect.

Actually mages can resist the mind control. Ala Mage Hawke, or Bethany. Also a Non mage Hawke can resist it well enough to kill the mage. Implication being than anyone with sufficient will power can resist the effects of Blood magic mind control. 

[KainD]

BlueMagitek wrote...

That unlocks some of the Taint's talents, but I was referring to his ability to push back the taint and sustain himself for centuries.

Edit:

And his research was definately a no no, what with the torture of his Warden allies, presumably against their will.

A shame about fellow wardens yes. 

Blood magic can do awesome things. It seems like tainted BLOOD also allows to take that magic a step further. After all the taint came from the fade itself, but from a sourse not known to demons, and the one that they fear. 

I feel like some enthusiastic mages may become "grey wardens", aka drink the dark spawn blood, without actually joining the grey wardens, just to get some of that sweet power. Not all will survive, but the surviving ones would be one very powerful breed of blood mages. 

Modifié par KainD, 15 octobre 2012 - 03:51 .