2177 réponses à ce sujet

[BlueMagitek]

Warrior Craess wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

Ah, so that's what it all boils down to. "I can't control it, therefore it's evil." Good to know.
 

It's actually "I can't fight against it, therefore it should be restricted".  The Litany is literally the only defense they have, and it doesn't help once the blood magic takes effect.

Actually mages can resist the mind control. Ala Mage Hawke, or Bethany. Also a Non mage Hawke can resist it well enough to kill the mage. Implication being than anyone with sufficient will power can resist the effects of Blood magic mind control. 

Sorry, we see that the Grand Enchanter can be forced into an abomination.  So no, I'm not going to take special PC powers into account.


Edit:

KainD wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

That
unlocks some of the Taint's talents, but I was referring to his ability
to push back the taint and sustain himself for centuries.

Edit:

And his research was definately a no no, what with the torture of his Warden allies, presumably against their will.

A shame about fellow wardens yes. 

Blood
magic can do awesome things. It seems like tainted BLOOD also allows to
take that magic a step further. After all the taint came from the fade
itself, but from a sourse not known to demons, and the one that they
fear. 

I feel like some enthusiastic mages may become "grey
wardens", aka drink the dark spawn blood, without actually joining the
grey wardens, just to get some of that sweet power. Not all will
survive, but the surviving ones would be one very powerful breed of
blood mages. 

[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/w00t.png[/smilie]

Blood Magic seems to allow a mage warden to manipulate the taint, yes.

Um, no, to survive the taint you need Archdemon blood.  This is one of the more well kept secrets, I believe. >_>"

Modifié par BlueMagitek, 15 octobre 2012 - 03:53 .

[KainD]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Um, no, to survive the taint you need Archdemon blood.  This is one of the more well kept secrets, I believe. >_>"

So well kept, even I didn't know it. :happy:

That is written somewhere in the literature right? Even so, wardens all have their own will, Anders left the Grey wardens for example. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Literature? Riordan states it in-game.

[BlueMagitek]

KainD wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Um, no, to survive the taint you need Archdemon blood.  This is one of the more well kept secrets, I believe. >_>"

So well kept, even I didn't know it. :happy:

That is written somewhere in the literature right? Even so, wardens all have their own will, Anders left the Grey wardens for example. 

It was stated somewhere in DA:O, possibly as a reason for why you can't just recruit an army of Grey Wardens and just keep firing balista at the Archdemon.


Yes, but even so, he's bound by the taint.  Grey Warden and Darkspawn will know where he is, and he will know where they are.

[KainD]

BlueMagitek wrote...

It was stated somewhere in DA:O, possibly as a reason for why you can't just recruit an army of Grey Wardens and just keep firing balista at the Archdemon.


Yes, but even so, he's bound by the taint.  Grey Warden and Darkspawn will know where he is, and he will know where they are.

Lol, Grey Warden Balista. reminds me of Angry birds. 

But no one felt Avernus for centuries did they? 

[dragonflight288]

KainD wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

It was stated somewhere in DA:O, possibly as a reason for why you can't just recruit an army of Grey Wardens and just keep firing balista at the Archdemon.


Yes, but even so, he's bound by the taint.  Grey Warden and Darkspawn will know where he is, and he will know where they are.

Lol, Grey Warden Balista. reminds me of Angry birds. 

But no one felt Avernus for centuries did they? 

No one was in proximity with Avernus. The Grey Wardens sense when darkspawn are near, and in turn, the darkspawn can sense when Grey Wardens are nearby. Morrigan makes it clear in Origins that the trick to leaving the Wilds was to keep the darkspawn from sensing Alistair since our Warden hadn't been a member of the order long enough to be sensed.

[KainD]

dragonflight288 wrote...

No one was in proximity with Avernus. The Grey Wardens sense when darkspawn are near, and in turn, the darkspawn can sense when Grey Wardens are nearby. Morrigan makes it clear in Origins that the trick to leaving the Wilds was to keep the darkspawn from sensing Alistair since our Warden hadn't been a member of the order long enough to be sensed.

So you can't mask the taint in any way?

[Shadow Fox]

Xilizhra wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

Yes you can use Blood Magic to fuel benign spells but the same could be done with lyrium and much less harm to yourself or someone else.  Blood Magic has no benign purpose, all powers associated with it are malevolent in nature.  Is that really a tool you want people using?

You just admitted blood magic can be used for benign purposes. Everything you say afterwards is a contradiction.

Yes just like I can use a sword as a shovel, or a pry bar, or a hammer if I choose to, but that's not what it's for.

How so? Blood magic can perform all kinds of benign effects far more efficiently, with far fewer expended resources, at the cost of easily healed damage to oneself.

Spirit Healer is far more efficient in healing than BM and more morally acceptable So I ask again why wouldn't a good intenioned mage just become a spirit healer?

[KiwiQuiche]

DPSSOC wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Blood magic is simply a tool. It all depends on how you use it, as with anything, even a sword or shield.

Yes and like a sword it serves no benign purpose.  A sword is made to hurt/kill things, that's it.  It's not intended to double as a pry bar for opening crates, or a spade; it's a weapon, it kills people.  Blood Magic is a similarily one note tool.  Have we seen a single benevolent Blood Magic power?  Is there one thing that can only be done with Blood Magic that doesn't involve doing terrible things to other people?

Yes you can use Blood Magic to fuel benign spells but the same could be done with lyrium and much less harm to yourself or someone else.  Blood Magic has no benign purpose, all powers associated with it are malevolent in nature.  Is that really a tool you want people using?

You completely missed my point. People are diverse; they are capable of acts of terrible cruelty and extreme kindness. As always, there will be those who create things, such as swords, to maim those who try to prevent them from doing their deeds.

However a  sword is double-edged; it can be used to murder and pillage or it can be used to protect loved ones and those under threat. It can be used to kill people for their valuables or to kill beasts who are trying to invade ones home. Likewise, Blood Magic can be used to either purpose.

Blood Magic is using someones lifeforce; However you can also use it to heal yourself. Why not others?

Imagine if you and a group of friends where in the middle of nowhere and you had no supplies. One friend was badly injured from a bite wound from a wolf. Someone using a sword kills the beast before it can injure anyone else. Is that person not benign, saving their friends from death from a hungry beast even those the wolf could have killed them as well?

In the case of a Blood Mage; You can give your badly injured friend some of your own, and the remaining friends, lifeforce to save their life. Does that mage deserve to be put to death for apparently using the 'dark arts' to save their friend's life at the cost of some of their own?

A tool like a sword always has a purpose; it can either harm or protect. It depends on the person wielding it.

[Xilizhra]

Spirit Healer is far more efficient in healing than BM and more morally acceptable So I ask again why wouldn't a good intenioned mage just become a spirit healer?

It requires inborn spirit medium talents.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

Yes you can use Blood Magic to fuel benign spells but the same could be done with lyrium and much less harm to yourself or someone else.  Blood Magic has no benign purpose, all powers associated with it are malevolent in nature.  Is that really a tool you want people using?

You just admitted blood magic can be used for benign purposes. Everything you say afterwards is a contradiction.

Yes just like I can use a sword as a shovel, or a pry bar, or a hammer if I choose to, but that's not what it's for.

How so? Blood magic can perform all kinds of benign effects far more efficiently, with far fewer expended resources, at the cost of easily healed damage to oneself.

Spirit Healer is far more efficient in healing than BM and more morally acceptable So I ask again why wouldn't a good intenioned mage just become a spirit healer?

Why is there a moral problem with using one's own blood as magical fuel? 

And why does a mage have to pick one and ignore the other?

[TEWR]

BlueMagitek wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


The Joining, Avernus' manipulation of the Taint in his blood, but most importantly of all.... the healing of withered crops.

But isn't Avernus' manipulation of the taint only necessary becuase of blood magic?

Irrelevant. The question was what are some benevolent applications of blood magic. I answered with three, though there are certainly more.

Avernus' manipulation of the Taint in his system could be extended to Wardens everywhere, granting the Wardens 200 possible years of fighting the Darkspawn or researching them instead of the regular 30.

Um, no, to survive the taint you need Archdemon blood. This is one of the more well kept secrets, I believe. >_>"

Well, really you just need a sufficiently potent and concentrated dose of tainted blood. Archdemon blood has that, but in the event that you ran out of it -- it's not gonna last forever -- then an extremely powerful Darkspawn's blood would work as well.

Or, just a crapton of regular Darkspawn blood that's magically treated.

David Gaider wrote...

The flaw in your story is that simply drinking darkspawn blood does not make one a Grey Warden. Most likely Joseph would come down with the blight and become a ghoul in short order. The villagers would have found him delerious and sick with fever, and if he survived he would have disappeared one night and never been seen again.

Becoming a Grey Warden requires a dose of the darkspawn corruption in sufficient potency that it immediately affects someone, rather than slowly enough to sicken them. Archdemon blood can be used (though is understandably much rarer), but any darkspawn blood can be magically treated to make it work.

Your rank-and-file darkspawn simply doesn't have enough of the corruption within him to do the trick... though who knows? If he drank enough, maybe it might work. I don't doubt a story of an "accidental" Grey Warden could be justified, although it would take some doing. 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 octobre 2012 - 04:50 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

KainD wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

No one was in proximity with Avernus. The Grey Wardens sense when darkspawn are near, and in turn, the darkspawn can sense when Grey Wardens are nearby. Morrigan makes it clear in Origins that the trick to leaving the Wilds was to keep the darkspawn from sensing Alistair since our Warden hadn't been a member of the order long enough to be sensed.

So you can't mask the taint in any way?

I believe Flemeth is stated to have found a way to have done so. Hence why the Warden doesn't get mobbed immediately out of Flemeth's yard.

[Shadow Fox]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

Yes you can use Blood Magic to fuel benign spells but the same could be done with lyrium and much less harm to yourself or someone else.  Blood Magic has no benign purpose, all powers associated with it are malevolent in nature.  Is that really a tool you want people using?

You just admitted blood magic can be used for benign purposes. Everything you say afterwards is a contradiction.

Yes just like I can use a sword as a shovel, or a pry bar, or a hammer if I choose to, but that's not what it's for.

How so? Blood magic can perform all kinds of benign effects far more efficiently, with far fewer expended resources, at the cost of easily healed damage to oneself.

Spirit Healer is far more efficient in healing than BM and more morally acceptable So I ask again why wouldn't a good intenioned mage just become a spirit healer?

Why is there a moral problem with using one's own blood as magical fuel? 

And why does a mage have to pick one and ignore the other?

Morally acceptable to the people of Thedas and not carrying an attomatic death sentence.

I doubt most Fade Spirits would be willing to help a Blood Mage considering where blood magic usually comes from:demons

[TEWR]

And his research was definately a no no, what with the torture of his Warden allies, presumably against their will

Under the circumstances his demon summoning put him in, I'd say it was a yes-yes. And we don't know that it was torture. His research said that he had to test the pain threshold to unlock the Taint's abilities.

And it seems to be supported by how when you drink the alchemical concoction that he created through his research, pain wracks the Warden's body -- something that happened to the Warden when he/she drank the Joining itself.

So pain and the Taint are linked. I doubt very much it was truly torture. Given how his acolytes retreated with him -- meaning his apprentices -- they probably understood what needed to be done and since he was the leading authority on the matter, worked with him.

His flaw in what he did -- the research, I mean -- though was that he pushed his colleagues too far and they died soon into his entrapment in the Tower -- around Day 97.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 octobre 2012 - 04:53 .

[Shadow Fox]

Xilizhra wrote...

Spirit Healer is far more efficient in healing than BM and more morally acceptable So I ask again why wouldn't a good intenioned mage just become a spirit healer?

It requires inborn spirit medium talents.

And blood magic usually has to be  learned from demons or tomes of a dubious nature.

Modifié par Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke, 15 octobre 2012 - 04:49 .

[Xilizhra]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Spirit Healer is far more efficient in healing than BM and more morally acceptable So I ask again why wouldn't a good intenioned mage just become a spirit healer?

It requires inborn spirit medium talents.

And blood magic usually has to learned from demons.

Well, you can certainly learn it from books if you find them, or from another mage.

[Shadow Fox]

Xilizhra wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Spirit Healer is far more efficient in healing than BM and more morally acceptable So I ask again why wouldn't a good intenioned mage just become a spirit healer?

It requires inborn spirit medium talents.

And blood magic usually has to learned from demons.

Well, you can certainly learn it from books if you find them, or from another mage.

Books by mages who most likely learned it from a demon and passed on the knowledge.

Modifié par Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke, 15 octobre 2012 - 04:51 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

Yes you can use Blood Magic to fuel benign spells but the same could be done with lyrium and much less harm to yourself or someone else.  Blood Magic has no benign purpose, all powers associated with it are malevolent in nature.  Is that really a tool you want people using?

You just admitted blood magic can be used for benign purposes. Everything you say afterwards is a contradiction.

Yes just like I can use a sword as a shovel, or a pry bar, or a hammer if I choose to, but that's not what it's for.

How so? Blood magic can perform all kinds of benign effects far more efficiently, with far fewer expended resources, at the cost of easily healed damage to oneself.

Spirit Healer is far more efficient in healing than BM and more morally acceptable So I ask again why wouldn't a good intenioned mage just become a spirit healer?

Why is there a moral problem with using one's own blood as magical fuel? 

And why does a mage have to pick one and ignore the other?

Morally acceptable to the people of Thedas and not carrying an attomatic death sentence.

I doubt most Fade Spirits would be willing to help a Blood Mage considering where blood magic usually comes from:demons

I don't see why Thedas considering blood magic immoral would stop all well-intentioned mages from using it. Especially non-Chantry controlled ones, but really any mage might take an objective look at this rule and say "You know what, this is stupid." That mage might also know the spirit healer talents.

As to your second point, that doesn't stop Hawke or the Warden. (And nobody try to state that that's just the protagonist having special powers. The last time I heard that argument invoked was stretching it; there's just no way there'd be a loophole this big set into place for the sake of maybe three or four people in the universe.)

[Xilizhra]

Books by mages who most likely learned it from a demon and passed on the knowledge.

Point being? It's possible to learn blood magic even from a demon with no real external cost, even, assuming you play your cards properly.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 15 octobre 2012 - 04:53 .

[Shadow Fox]

Xilizhra wrote...

Books by mages who most likely learned it from a demon and passed on the knowledge.

Point being? It's possible to learn blood magic even from a demon with no real external cost, even, assuming you play your cards properly.

Deals with a demon tend to backfire eventally.

[Shadow Fox]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

Yes you can use Blood Magic to fuel benign spells but the same could be done with lyrium and much less harm to yourself or someone else.  Blood Magic has no benign purpose, all powers associated with it are malevolent in nature.  Is that really a tool you want people using?

You just admitted blood magic can be used for benign purposes. Everything you say afterwards is a contradiction.

Yes just like I can use a sword as a shovel, or a pry bar, or a hammer if I choose to, but that's not what it's for.

How so? Blood magic can perform all kinds of benign effects far more efficiently, with far fewer expended resources, at the cost of easily healed damage to oneself.

Spirit Healer is far more efficient in healing than BM and more morally acceptable So I ask again why wouldn't a good intenioned mage just become a spirit healer?

Why is there a moral problem with using one's own blood as magical fuel? 

And why does a mage have to pick one and ignore the other?

Morally acceptable to the people of Thedas and not carrying an attomatic death sentence.

I doubt most Fade Spirits would be willing to help a Blood Mage considering where blood magic usually comes from:demons

I don't see why Thedas considering blood magic immoral would stop all well-intentioned mages from using it. Especially non-Chantry controlled ones, but really any mage might take an objective look at this rule and say "You know what, this is stupid." That mage might also know the spirit healer talents.

As to your second point, that doesn't stop Hawke or the Warden. (And nobody try to state that that's just the protagonist having special powers. The last time I heard that argument invoked was stretching it; there's just no way there'd be a loophole this big set into place for the sake of maybe three or four people in the universe.)

Because like I said Blood Magic carries an attomatic death sentence cant do much good dead can you? And a truely good intenioned mage wouldn't use it when there are arguably safer alternatives

Except it generally is when you have a developer actually saying Wynne should not be able to be a blood mage and that the Spirit Healer and Blood Mage specialzations conflict with each other simply because most fade spirits don't look too kindly on BM given it's dark origins.

[Dave of Canada]

Blood Mage writings: "to learn blood magic, summon a demon! force it to teach you or else you'll be an abomination! have fun!".

[Urzon]

I think we can all agree that blood magic is dangerous, but it shouldn't be written off completely because of said danger. There are many dangerous things in this world: fire, weapons, human nature, and the most dangerous of all... knowledge. All these things can kill a great many people every single day, but we have learned over time to exercise (for the most part) restraint and control.

They should allow only a select few mages to study it. Maybe a single mage, or 2 at most, per Circle. They would study it in a secluded, and heavily warded, room away from the main part of the Circle. They would be guarded at all times, and if any show any signs of possession, or signs of falling under the influsion of the power alone, they would be make tranquil or killed. The End.

Modifié par Urzon, 15 octobre 2012 - 06:37 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

[quote]
The welfare and humanitarian organizations operate globally. Yet there's still poverty. There's still people who dont' get help.[/quote]

That's due to a confluence of various factors, not all of which apply to Thedas' Chantry.[/quote]

Yes they do.
Thedas lacks instant communications.
It lacks airplanes to trpanport wast quantities of perishable food.
It lacks modern faming techiques and machienery to produce a lot of food.

It's a medieval world.

The Chantry CANNOT help everyone. It is impossible.



[quote]
Well it's a good thing I never said the Chantry needed to solve the world's problems completely![/quote]

Actually you did.
You keep using the existence of poverty as evidence that the Chantry does nothing.

Which is so stupid I cannot express it with words.


[quote]
Yes, because telling a damn King to let Elves join the military, or the Guard, or have them hired by other people, that's so damn hard.[/quote]

Elves are hired by people.
I don't think the Cahntry meddles in the hireing practices of people


[quote]
What I am asking them to do is to make an effort to help the people of all races. Have a divine decree made to a King saying Elves should be able to get better jobs, send some Mages to help the Dwarves who fight the Darkspawn eternally, give shelter to those poor and downtrodden that they can handle, or even recruiting Elves and Dwarven converts into the Templars.[/qutoe]

There's not enough to go around for everyone and there's plenty of problems to go around, without adding even more onto the plate.

[quote]
So far, I've seen them helping only humans. Never Elves. Never Dwarves.[/quote]

So what?


[quote]
I really don't consider the Chantry's allowance of the Elves to live in filthy, squalid, decrepit areas of the City with no opportunity at living a decent life as an act of "generosity". If Elves got to join the Guard because the Chantry told nobles to start doing so, then I'd view the Chantry in a better light.[/quote]

Chatnry allowance? You speak as if it's the Chantry that gave a decree that elves have to live in squalor. They don't.
The Chatnry is a powerfull organization - but it's still just one part of a large world.






[quote]
This isn't hearsay. Wynne and Alistair both state Morrigan is a maleficar, possibly right in front of her. Hearsay is if I told you Larry killed a guy because he told me he did, but I never saw it or heard it happen myself.

Wynne and Alistair saying such -- the former to the Warden in conversation about their relationship -- doesn't constitute hearsay.[/quote]

Waht? Alistair and Wynnes oppinion are not jstu that? Oppinions?

Altough you are diverting this conversation, since I'm talking in general terms and you keep harping on abotu the semantics of the world "maleficar". I don't care about that word.

[quote]
Yeah right. You just can't concede that you're wrong on anything regarding Mages and Templars, can you?[/quote]

Can you?


[quote]
[quote]Also, wtf does cettle mean?[/quote]That's funny considering half of your posts aren't exactly spelled with great grammar.[/quote]

I still don't know what you wanted to say.