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[Lotion Soronarr]

ForThessia wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't know about Merrill; she subtly manipulated events so that her Keeper was off her back, and if she played her cards right, her entire clan destroyed. I'm not sure how you can add a "good" check to someone like that.

Marethari was a vile traitor to the clan as a whole and to Merrill, and Merrill manipulated nothing.

How was Marethari a traitor to the Dalish?

Because she opposed Blood magic and dealign with demons.
And you know that Xilizhra thinks it's a great idea to play with fire.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Urzon wrote...

I think we can all agree that blood magic is dangerous, but it shouldn't be written off completely because of said danger. There are many dangerous things in this world: fire, weapons, human nature, and the most dangerous of all... knowledge. All these things can kill a great many people every single day, but we have learned over time to exercise (for the most part) restraint and control.

They should allow only a select few mages to study it. Maybe a single mage, or 2 at most, per Circle. They would study it in a secluded, and heavily warded, room away from the main part of the Circle. They would be guarded at all times, and if any show any signs of possession, or signs of falling under the influsion of the power alone, they would be make tranquil or killed. The End.

And how will you guard agaisnt mind control?
This is the single msot evil thing about blood magic. It is power and temptation in it's purest form. Unsuitable for anyone.

No one should ever wield that power. No one. Ever. No exceptions.

[KiwiQuiche]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Urzon wrote...

I think we can all agree that blood magic is dangerous, but it shouldn't be written off completely because of said danger. There are many dangerous things in this world: fire, weapons, human nature, and the most dangerous of all... knowledge. All these things can kill a great many people every single day, but we have learned over time to exercise (for the most part) restraint and control.

They should allow only a select few mages to study it. Maybe a single mage, or 2 at most, per Circle. They would study it in a secluded, and heavily warded, room away from the main part of the Circle. They would be guarded at all times, and if any show any signs of possession, or signs of falling under the influsion of the power alone, they would be make tranquil or killed. The End.

And how will you guard agaisnt mind control?
This is the single msot evil thing about blood magic. It is power and temptation in it's purest form. Unsuitable for anyone.

No one should ever wield that power. No one. Ever. No exceptions.

People who have will power; Hawke breaks that Hooker's mind control through sheer will. Obviously training would help as well, but Hawke didn't have any either.  Just how do you guard against swords? Wear armour. How do you guard against drowning? Learn to swim.

No, that's because the person using it was trying that. It's a mean to an ends, doesn't mean it's evil.

Yes they should, as long as they are properly trained. That's how people get possessed and hurt; they have no one to help them, only demons because Chantry is "Blood Magic is evil durrr" stance.

[Urzon]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And how will you guard agaisnt mind control?
This is the single msot evil thing about blood magic. It is power and temptation in it's purest form. Unsuitable for anyone.

No one should ever wield that power. No one. Ever. No exceptions.

The templars guarding the room with have to pass extra training to resist mind control, on top of whatever training they already do. Sad as the fact is, that is one of the reason why templars are choosen on religious fevor. They belief in the Maker and his teaching helps the templars battle against mind domination. Their faith gives them additonal willpower to fight back against it. The other reason being of course, it makes it easier for them to follows orders they might find uncomfortable, if the orders come from something with religious authority.

It has also been said that the Seekers might be immune to blood magic's mind control. While I think that might be an exaggeration, it does hint at ways a templar might increase his resistence to mental domination. Which would make them better (if not the best) guards against blood mages.

There is also of course the Litany of Andralla. And before you mention that it only breaks mind control in use, I have to argue that that was more of an gameplay mechanic, that they added just for the Uldred fight, than a lore one. If Asunder showed us anything, it's that the Litany can be used for more things than just what it did in DAO.

While I agree that mind control is the worse thing bad blood magic, the fact is that there is nothing, nothing, you or anyone in Thedas can do to stop it's use. You can somehow burn all the books, kill all the bloodmages, heck kill all the mages period, but that wouldn't stop blood magic for being learned.

Mages are born everyday, and demons will always be willing to make a deal.

Modifié par Urzon, 15 octobre 2012 - 08:04 .

[Cultist]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And yours can?
Please..you had nothing in that thread...nothing. Less than nothing.

I operate by existing game lore, not shoulds and woulds. So yes, mine can, because I can back them up. But you can scream "you had nothing, noooothing!!!" all you want, in time, that may compensate your lack of proofs...maybe.

So you are saying if humantiy endures something then it's not a problem?

Geez, guess we should comeptlely stop protecting ourselves from natural disasters. After all, no matter how many of us are killed, some will survive, no?
A meteror? Hey, chances are some will survive. Don't try to stop it then. Not a problem.

Seriously... you jsut said yourself that Plague is a problem. As long as kingdoms endure free mages, it doesn't matter how many die...right?

Plague was a problem kingdoms cannot solve so it solved itself. Funny thing, we can your kind of logic here - different levels of threat. And mages by far, cannot even come close to plague or war. And that's assuming we accept your imaginary world, where mages kill thousands of people around them after sneezing) Yet noone ever even tried to solve mage problem...save for one Templar, who, with his followers sought Final Solution.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Also, wtf does cettle mean?

I wonder, if I'll tell you that 2+2=4 would you answer with pot and kettle phrase as well? Because you use it everywhere without even concidering to read the context.
And of all people in the forums, you are not the one to point me at my typos)

You knowledge on the subject is none.
Citing a few names you fished of the wiki right now doesn't impress me.

Of course I won't argue with you that crusades were common wars. like I will not argue with man, who will tell me that pyramids were built by aliens or that all Aztec sacrifices were willing people. That's just pointless.
By the way, I got Adam and Arnold's book here near me in paperback. So you are free to name a page, chapter and even line - I can easily tell you the contents.

Yes you did.
If you don't pay attention to your wording, why demands it from me?

maybe because you like imagining things up? Like in our Chantry debate or here with templars.

And in further conversations, you inability to understand human behaviour is apalling. Your idea that people would be happy and content, should you place them in a golden cage is so...childish. The very fact that ALL Circles rebelled is proof enough that mages were ready to risk their lives to break from this "good and happy" life.

[Cultist]

ImperatorMortis wrote...
I definitely want some consequences. I'm planning on being a Blood Mage/Spirit Healer, and I want people to atleast acknowledge that I'm cutting myself, and controlling my enemies minds.

Devs already said that only one specialization will be allowed. So either Blood Mage or Spirit healer, assuming they will leave SH for us.

amggrunt wrote...
A spirit or demon are really the same
thing in dragon age, Jjust demons tend to reflect things most mortals
find too be sins, while spirits tend to embody the things we find most
noble about are selves. Of course this does not mean a spirit will
always be good.
The line between Justive and Vengeance, or Valor and stupid, can be very thin.

Not quite, Gaider said that they are different.

[Lotion Soronarr]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And how will you guard agaisnt mind control?
This is the single msot evil thing about blood magic. It is power and temptation in it's purest form. Unsuitable for anyone.

No one should ever wield that power. No one. Ever. No exceptions.

People who have will power; Hawke breaks that Hooker's mind control through sheer will. Obviously training would help as well, but Hawke didn't have any either.

No. Hawke has plot shields.
He doesn't count as an example of anything, ever.

I hate the "heroic willpower" trope. It's stupid and trite, especially in DA:O.

No, that's because the person using it was trying that. It's a mean to an ends, doesn't mean it's evil.

Yes they should, as long as they are properly trained. That's how people get possessed and hurt; they have no one to help them, only demons because Chantry is "Blood Magic is evil durrr" stance.

No, no one should ever wield that power. Ever.
No one can be trusted. It's too corrupting a power, too tempting.

People who think they can use it are the last people in the world I'd give that power, because they already proved their hubris and ego by thnking themselves incorruptable.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Urzon wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And how will you guard agaisnt mind control?
This is the single msot evil thing about blood magic. It is power and temptation in it's purest form. Unsuitable for anyone.

No one should ever wield that power. No one. Ever. No exceptions.

The templars guarding the room with have to pass extra training to resist mind control, on top of whatever training they already do. Sad as the fact is, that is one of the reason why templars are choosen on religious fevor. They belief in the Maker and his teaching helps the templars battle against mind domination. Their faith gives them additonal willpower to fight back against it. The other reason being of course, it makes it easier for them to follows orders they might find uncomfortable, if the orders come from something with religious authority.

Hmmm... that may actually work. Assuming blood magic remains confined to just those two mages. But how do you make sure?
How do you make sure those mages don't teach other mages?
They would literally have to be watched 24/7 for the rest of their lives...and I don't think they'd like that.

It has also been said that the Seekers might be immune to blood magic's mind control. While I think that might be an exaggeration, it does hint at ways a templar might increase his resistence to mental domination. Which would make them better (if not the best) guards against blood mages.

Really? I'm curious. Where was that said? And how woudl that immunity come about?

There is also of course the Litany of Andralla. And before you mention that it only breaks mind control in use, I have to argue that that was more of an gameplay mechanic, that they added just for the Uldred fight, than a lore one. If Asunder showed us anything, it's that the Litany can be used for more things than just what it did in DAO.

I can argue that the Litany only exist for gampleay reasons at all.

While I agree that mind control is the worse thing bad blood magic, the fact is that there is nothing, nothing, you or anyone in Thedas can do to stop it's use. You can somehow burn all the books, kill all the bloodmages, heck kill all the mages period, but that wouldn't stop blood magic for being learned.

Hey, you won't stop all crime either or all war.
Doesn't mean we should stop trying to.

And technicly, if you kill any mage as soon as he shows signs (or eradicate everoyne with mage-genes), you would stop it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Cultist wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And yours can?
Please..you had nothing in that thread...nothing. Less than nothing.

I operate by existing game lore, not shoulds and woulds. So yes, mine can, because I can back them up. But you can scream "you had nothing, noooothing!!!" all you want, in time, that may compensate your lack of proofs...maybe.

You couldn't back up a toilet (actually you could).
You quote lore and facts and then deduce things from them and use those deducstio nas a fact. Even tough there are other many possible, equally (or far more) valid deductions that can be made from the same facts.
You also ignore human behavior, common sense and basic logic.

Seriously... you jsut said yourself that Plague is a problem. As long as kingdoms endure free mages, it doesn't matter how many die...right?

Plague was a problem kingdoms cannot solve so it solved itself. Funny thing, we can your kind of logic here - different levels of threat. And mages by far, cannot even come close to plague or war. And that's assuming we accept your imaginary world, where mages kill thousands of people around them after sneezing) Yet noone ever even tried to solve mage problem...save for one Templar, who, with his followers sought Final Solution.

Actually they can.
Mages can unleash an unholy avalanche of s*** storm if enough things start going bad at the same time.

Again, Connor, a young boy - rasied an small army of undead. An army that would have grown bigger and bigger had the Warden not stopped it.
Several abominations, each with it's own army, each tearing the veil open and producing more abominations - that is a big, BIG problem.

Also, none ever tried to solve the mage problem? Interesting notion. You got proof of that?

I wonder, if I'll tell you that 2+2=4 would you answer with pot and kettle phrase as well? Because you use it everywhere without even concidering to read the context.

Oh I read the context allright.
It's just you try to call me out for hipocrisy when you yourself fail at reading comprehension and compare apples and oranges.

Of course I won't argue with you that crusades were common wars. like I will not argue with man, who will tell me that pyramids were built by aliens or that all Aztec sacrifices were willing people. That's just pointless.
By the way, I got Adam and Arnold's book here near me in paperback. So you are free to name a page, chapter and even line - I can easily tell you the contents.

And I won't argue with you either.
It's pointless. You don't know anything, and think you do and you won't be convinced otherwise. It would be too incoventient for you to get out of that foxhole you dug out.

Go ahead, tell me that fire is liquid and that earth is flat.
The value of your knowledge and comments is even below that.

And in further conversations, you inability to understand human behaviour is apalling. Your idea that people would be happy and content, should you place them in a golden cage is so...childish. The very fact that ALL Circles rebelled is proof enough that mages were ready to risk their lives to break from this "good and happy" life.

Ha. You call my incapable of understandign human behavior and you yourself fail at even the most basic concepts (which you proved so adminrably in the Leliana thread and all others).

Go ahead. Keep building strawmen you can tear down insted of dealign with what I actually say.
Mages can be content in the circles - many are. Some aren't and won't. That's normal. I said many times that occasional rebellion/unrest is a expected reaction to being contained.

And yet you think the rest of the world will be happy with mages roaming free. That the Chatnry (and the world) will be indifferent ot he Ashes. Hahahahahaha

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

We know what happened to those Gray Wardens who used Blood Magic to rebel against that tyrant ~maybe spoiler.

Moreover what Lotion Soronnar has said and the one I said above, even the main Protagonist/Warden of DA:O shouldn't use blood magic for the sake of remaining alive ... die like a hero, dammit!

[Urzon]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Hmmm... that may actually work. Assuming blood magic remains confined to just those two mages. But how do you make sure?
How do you make sure those mages don't teach other mages?
They would literally have to be watched 24/7 for the rest of their lives...and I don't think they'd like that.

I'd have to quote Yoda on this one. "Do. or do not. There is no try."

If they want to study blood magic legally, it is going to be a life long commitment. That would mean you would live a cloistered life, away from even your fellow mages. It would be in no way recommended for younger mages though. It would be more along the lines of middle age or senior mages, much more experience magically, and they are more set in their ways.

I doubt many mages would actually want the postition, which is prefered, since there is only going to be 1 or 2 per Circle, but i can see mages that are like Avernus would gladly take the job. Cold, scholarly, not prefering the company of other humans, etc.

Really? I'm curious. Where was that said? And how woudl that immunity come about?

It was said in the Seekers of Truth codex:


Ser Whitmore,
When I mentioned powers greater than the templars, I didn't mean the Chantry. Sure they command the templars, but that was not always so—the Inquisition once hunted heretics and cultists as well as mages, and their reign of terror ended only with the inception of the Circle of Magi. They became the Templar Order, for good or ill the watchers of the mages and the martial arm of the Chantry.
It was a mutually beneficial arrangement, but few know that the Chantry created yet another order to watch over the templars: the Seekers of Truth. I know little of them myself, but I can say the following things with certainty: they serve the Divine and they are feared. When a Seeker steps from the shadows, templars run for cover—because why would he come unless the templars somehow failed in their duties? Seekers are extremely effective investigating abuses within the Circle and hunting particularly evasive apostates. It's said they are immune to a blood mage's mind control and possess the ability to read minds or erase memories, but this is likely exaggeration.
So we return to my original dilemma. Who watches powers greater than that of the templars? One assumes it's the Divine, but how much could She know about their activities when their very existence is a mystery to most?
—A letter from an unknown priest, found in the Grand Cathedral archives, 8:80 Blessed

Like the codex states itself, it is most likely an exaggeration. I can see that on the reading of minds and erasing of memories part, but the immunity could be iffy. The templars can gain an resistence, to magic overall, through the ingestion of lyrium, and a mental resistence through their faith. It could be speculated that their are ways of increasing that resistence further.

Not sure how though. Only things i can think of is: more refined or stronger dose of lyrium, mental exercises, some type of training from hell, or some magic-nullifying rune helmet (like Magneto's). It would cancel out magic targeting the brain.

I can see them having at least an increased mental resistence though. The Seekers are know for going after the more dangerous aposates and maleficarum.

Hey, you won't stop all crime either or all war.
Doesn't mean we should stop trying to.

And technicly, if you kill any mage as soon as he shows signs (or eradicate everoyne with mage-genes), you would stop it.

I'm not saying you should stop trying to prevent blood mages. I'm just saying you shouldn't think you can stop them all. With how large the world (and Thedas) is, it is impossible to stop something from happening all across the world. It's just too many people. The best we can do is try and manage the situation the best we can do. We can't stop bad things from happening, but hopefully we can at least prevent the majority of it. The same goes for blood magic.

Unless you are an all-knowing and all-seeing being, there are always going to be some mages that escape your grasp. Not to mention, there is a good chance they are pissed now, with you wanting to kill them for just being a mage and all...

Modifié par Urzon, 15 octobre 2012 - 11:29 .

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, it's also hideously inhumane, but I'm not sure if you care about that or not.

Inhumane you say?  Hmm... what  makes it so inhumane?  All the Qunari leash does is give an Arvaarad power over a mage remarkably similar to what a free mage would enjoy over everyone around them... all the time.  If mages can be trusted to use their inherent power over others responsibly, why should others not be entrusted with similar powers over mages?

Then I suppose we'll disagree. Although I thought you were vaguely for the mage rebellion.

You thought wrong… I very strongly support the mage rebellion!  Largely because Templar Order got WAAAAY out of line and the mages didn't really have any choice but to "rebel."  It's just that there's a world of difference between a rebellion focused on restoring and upholding the ideals the Circles were supposed to stand for and a rebellion bent on tearing down everyone and everything that some wacko says is in the way of their little vision of "how things should be."

Define "sophisticated."

Refined, developed, and complex. 

BlueMagitek wrote...

General User wrote...

I'd prefer to just have companions just  leave if they find the Player Character so unacceptable.  Why retain a character in the lineup if either you can't stand them or they can't stand you?

They may have a need for your mission to progress, even if they believe your actions are wrong. Or they may need to be used later. 

Or if it is low enough, let them leave; I'm just suggesting a cap so it isn't the end all be all.

Edit: Fixed some of the formatting

Any character that leaves could always come back later if the plot demands it.  Picture Anders in DA2.  Imagine  if you could buy the maps from him in Act I then, if you so chose, that would be the end of your involvement with him until he makes his little appearance at the end of the game.  You and Anders could avoid each other entirely, but he could still make his plot demanded appearances.

Modifié par General User, 15 octobre 2012 - 11:41 .

[Xilizhra]

Inhumane you say? Hmm... what makes it so inhumane? All the Qunari leash does is give an Arvaarad power over a mage remarkably similar to what a free mage would enjoy over everyone around them... all the time. If mages can be trusted to use their inherent power over others responsibly, why should others not be entrusted with similar powers over mages?

I think it'd be kinda noticed if the mage in question starting ripping other peoples' eyes out. And the point is that said power wouldn't be exercised in my own version; the qunari leash thing automatically has it being exercised in the beginning, the situation I hope to avoid, so it solves nothing.

You thought wrong… I very strongly support the mage rebellion! Largely because Templar Order got WAAAAY out of line and the mages didn't really have any choice but to "rebel." It's just that there's a world of difference between a rebellion focused on restoring and upholding the ideals the Circles were supposed to stand for and a rebellion bent on tearing down everyone and everything that some wacko says is in the way of their little vision of "how things should be."

There's no idealism left in the Circle. It's time to start over.

Refined, developed, and complex.

It's true that the Chasind don't seem to possess a complex division of labor; it's also true that the societies that have one have tended to be much more violent and discriminatory than those without. They also may be somewhat behind in technological development, but I'd like more clarity on "refined."

Any character that leaves could always come back later if the plot demands it. Picture Anders in DA2. Imagine if you could buy the maps from him in Act I then, if you so chose, that would be the end of your involvement with him until he makes his little appearance at the end of the game. You and Anders could avoid each other entirely, but he could still make his plot demanded appearances.

I'm vehemently against forced character departure, as well as mechanical choices like specialization dooming one's relationships.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Urzon wrote...
It was said in the Seekers of Truth codex:


Ser Whitmore,
When I mentioned powers greater than the templars, I didn't mean the Chantry. Sure they command the templars, but that was not always so—the Inquisition once hunted heretics and cultists as well as mages, and their reign of terror ended only with the inception of the Circle of Magi. They became the Templar Order, for good or ill the watchers of the mages and the martial arm of the Chantry.
It was a mutually beneficial arrangement, but few know that the Chantry created yet another order to watch over the templars: the Seekers of Truth. I know little of them myself, but I can say the following things with certainty: they serve the Divine and they are feared. When a Seeker steps from the shadows, templars run for cover—because why would he come unless the templars somehow failed in their duties? Seekers are extremely effective investigating abuses within the Circle and hunting particularly evasive apostates. It's said they are immune to a blood mage's mind control and possess the ability to read minds or erase memories, but this is likely exaggeration.
So we return to my original dilemma. Who watches powers greater than that of the templars? One assumes it's the Divine, but how much could She know about their activities when their very existence is a mystery to most?
—A letter from an unknown priest, found in the Grand Cathedral archives, 8:80 Blessed

Like the codex states itself, it is most likely an exaggeration. I can see that on the reading of minds and erasing of memories part, but the immunity could be iffy. The templars can gain an resistence, to magic overall, through the ingestion of lyrium, and a mental resistence through their faith. It could be speculated that their are ways of increasing that resistence further.

Not sure how though. Only things i can think of is: more refined or stronger dose of lyrium, mental exercises, some type of training from hell, or some magic-nullifying rune helmet (like Magneto's). It would cancel out magic targeting the brain.

I can see them having at least an increased mental resistence though. The Seekers are know for going after the more dangerous aposates and maleficarum.

Interesting. I must have missed that tidbit.

I wouldn't be surprised it's just rumors and folk tales.
Given that Seekers are also interrogators, it wouldn't surprise me if they are very good at getting information out of people in a maryad of ways - and some mroe easily scared/impressed could see it as mind-reading.

And even more interesting thought would be if the seekers were blood mages themselves (or maybe inflitrated by them).

I'm not saying you should stop trying to prevent blood mages. I'm just saying you shouldn't think you can stop them all. With how large the world (and Thedas) is, it is impossible to stop something from happening all across the world. It's just too many people. The best we can do is try and manage the situation the best we can do. We can't stop bad things from happening, but hopefully we can at least prevent the majority of it. The same goes for blood magic.

Well, assuming the Chantry does spread everywhere...with enough effort it may even be possible. Doubtfull, but still...

[BlueMagitek]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Irrelevant. The question was what are some benevolent applications of blood magic. I answered with three, though there are certainly more.

Avernus' manipulation of the Taint in his system could be extended to Wardens everywhere, granting the Wardens 200 possible years of fighting the Darkspawn or researching them instead of the regular 30.

Well, really you just need a sufficiently potent and concentrated dose of tainted blood. Archdemon blood has that, but in the event that you ran out of it -- it's not gonna last forever -- then an extremely powerful Darkspawn's blood would work as well.

Or, just a crapton of regular Darkspawn blood that's magically treated.

David Gaider wrote...

The flaw in your story is that simply drinking darkspawn blood does not make one a Grey Warden. Most likely Joseph would come down with the blight and become a ghoul in short order. The villagers would have found him delerious and sick with fever, and if he survived he would have disappeared one night and never been seen again.

Becoming a Grey Warden requires a dose of the darkspawn corruption in sufficient potency that it immediately affects someone, rather than slowly enough to sicken them. Archdemon blood can be used (though is understandably much rarer), but any darkspawn blood can be magically treated to make it work.

Your rank-and-file darkspawn simply doesn't have enough of the corruption within him to do the trick... though who knows? If he drank enough, maybe it might work. I don't doubt a story of an "accidental" Grey Warden could be justified, although it would take some doing. 

I wasn't aware of the DG quote.  Fair enough then; it still seems to be a secret.

Well, cleaning up after yourself is a good application, yes.  But again, while he can unlock the power of the taint for all Wardens, can he sustain all Wardens for centuries or is it just something he can teach other mages?  I suppose it doesn't matter.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And his research was definately a no no, what with the torture of his Warden allies, presumably against their will

...

His flaw in what he did -- the research, I mean -- though was that he pushed his colleagues too far and they died soon into his entrapment in the Tower -- around Day 97.

I would agree, but for the way he reacts when you call him out on it.  From my memory, he seems resigned, and I believe he agrees that he crossed a line.  But it has been a while.

KainD wrote...

Lol, Grey Warden Balista. reminds me of Angry birds. 

But no one felt Avernus for centuries did they? 

That, and he was kind of hidden in a weird, fade area thing.   I believe it was stated that he intentionally kept others away until he felt the blood of a descendant of a certain someone. ~_^

[Warrior Craess]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

Ah, so that's what it all boils down to. "I can't control it, therefore it's evil." Good to know.
 

It's actually "I can't fight against it, therefore it should be restricted".  The Litany is literally the only defense they have, and it doesn't help once the blood magic takes effect.

Actually mages can resist the mind control. Ala Mage Hawke, or Bethany. Also a Non mage Hawke can resist it well enough to kill the mage. Implication being than anyone with sufficient will power can resist the effects of Blood magic mind control. 

Sorry, we see that the Grand Enchanter can be forced into an abomination.  So no, I'm not going to take special PC powers into account.


Edit:

KainD wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

That
unlocks some of the Taint's talents, but I was referring to his ability
to push back the taint and sustain himself for centuries.

Edit:

And his research was definately a no no, what with the torture of his Warden allies, presumably against their will.

A shame about fellow wardens yes. 

Blood
magic can do awesome things. It seems like tainted BLOOD also allows to
take that magic a step further. After all the taint came from the fade
itself, but from a sourse not known to demons, and the one that they
fear. 

I feel like some enthusiastic mages may become "grey
wardens", aka drink the dark spawn blood, without actually joining the
grey wardens, just to get some of that sweet power. Not all will
survive, but the surviving ones would be one very powerful breed of
blood mages. 

[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/w00t.png[/smilie]

Blood Magic seems to allow a mage warden to manipulate the taint, yes.

Um, no, to survive the taint you need Archdemon blood.  This is one of the more well kept secrets, I believe. >_>"

Really which of the 2 grand enchanters was forced into an abomination? Irving? Orsino? 

Orsino chose to become an abomination because he lost faith (not faith in the chantry), and he felt powerless to stop the slaughter of the mages in his charge. 

[BlueMagitek]

^ Irving, if you don't stop it in time via Litany.

[LobselVith8]

Youth4Ever wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I’m not nickpicking, I’m addressing the facts. 

You’re the one who decides to ignore certain facts if they don’t line up with your point of view.

You mean you actually use facts to support your arguments outside of our debate??? Whoa!

Coming from the person who ignores the information that comes from codex entries, characters, and lore because it disproves your argument?

Modifié par LobselVith8, 15 octobre 2012 - 07:04 .

[Cultist]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You couldn't back up a toilet (actually you could).
You quote lore and facts and then deduce things from them and use those deducstio nas a fact. Even tough there are other many possible, equally (or far more) valid deductions that can be made from the same facts.
You also ignore human behavior, common sense and basic logic.

And I wondered when you will return to your usual swearing self)
If I quote lore and facts then I state only what they are stating, obviously. Should I remind you your fanfiction from back then about how Chantry will act towards Warden? And as far as I remember, you stated that only one "logic" is "right" - yours, and everything else is stupid, false and idiotic. That sure is a pinnacle of reasonable approach to analyzing "human behaviour and common sense". 

Actually they can.
Mages can unleash an unholy avalanche of s*** storm if enough things start going bad at the same time.

Again, Connor, a young boy - rasied an small army of undead. An army that would have grown bigger and bigger had the Warden not stopped it.
Several abominations, each with it's own army, each tearing the veil open and producing more abominations - that is a big, BIG problem.

Also, none ever tried to solve the mage problem? Interesting notion. You got proof of that?

Tevinter survived the Blights. and society ruled by mages somehow managed to avoid being overrun by possessed mages, abominations and daily random explosions, Damn cheaters!
Connor was untrained, and why he was untrained? Because Chantry stated that children with magical abilities must be taken from their parents. Chantry provoked his mother into hiding him.

Oh I read the context allright.
It's just you try to call me out for hipocrisy when you yourself fail at reading comprehension and compare apples and oranges.

For you, only that could be compared, that suits you. Once you find it disproves your statements and proves you wrong, immediately it becomes "apples and oranges"

And I won't argue with you either.
It's pointless. You don't know anything, and think you do and you won't be convinced otherwise. It would be too incoventient for you to get out of that foxhole you dug out.

Go ahead, tell me that fire is liquid and that earth is flat.
The value of your knowledge and comments is even below that.

Well, it is you who keep telling that only you know the only Absolute Truth and everyone who disagree with you is ignorant, clueless and know nothing. It is not mine posts that are cleared by moderators to remove "inflammatory comments". Think about it.

Ha. You call my incapable of understandign human behavior and you yourself fail at even the most basic concepts (which you proved so adminrably in the Leliana thread and all others).

Go ahead. Keep building strawmen you can tear down insted of dealign with what I actually say.
Mages can be content in the circles - many are. Some aren't and won't. That's normal. I said many times that occasional rebellion/unrest is a expected reaction to being contained.

And yet you think the rest of the world will be happy with mages roaming free. That the Chatnry (and the world) will be indifferent ot he Ashes. Hahahahahaha

Albeit they say, that laugh is a defesive reaction, I'm glad you are so happy.
And all that "mages are content" argument is invalid - every Circle rebelled. That content and happy mages entered a war with the militant order, that specializes of killing and opposing magic wielders. Not some percentage of Circles were lost, all of them.
I have no idea how the rest of the world would react - that's to writers to decide and I'll see it in DA3. And Ashes? I don't know, they lay defiled)

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

It isn’t irrelevant. The protagonist doesn’t need to be ‘super’ to make a man realize his mistakes, or defend himself against attempted murder, was the point of my statement. And the Dalish aren’t at the brink of ‘extinction’ simply because two clans can perish.[/quote]

It is irrelevant because it doens't change the fact that two dalish mages brought their clans to the bink of distruction.
What the Warden/Hawke does is irrelevant. 
Without him (or even with him) both of those clans are doomed. [/quote]

Actually, Zathrian's clan is attacked by werewolves, and Marethari's clan will attempt to murder Hawke and Merrill in cold blood unless they are coddled; the two examples are extremely different.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I’m using the brutal subjugation of mages across Thedas in all the Circles of Magi to argue against the Chantry controlled Circles. Circles of Magi where mages have no basic rights, where templars have “dominion over mages by divine right,” where mages can be made tranquil without any ability to argue against the charges against him, and where abuses can transpire because they are at the mercy of the templars.[/quote]

"Across Thedas" and you only have Kirkwall to go with.

Mages have rights and they can have a decent life in the Circles. [/quote]

I'm sure the Loyalists have no issue living on their knees; among other mages, we see that isn't the case: Aldenon the Wise opposed the Chantry controlled Circles and condemned them as slavery, Fiona thought the Circle was worse than her life as an Orlesian sex slave, the mage protagonist can express that the Circle of Ferelden is an "oppressive place" (which Wynne never contests, and argues that he can change try to change that it's an oppressive place if he returns to become a leader, given time), and the continential revolution among the mages across the Andrastian nations.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Occasional abuses are pretty much expected (given the setting and time period...heck, even today they wouldn't be out of place) and they do not indicate that everything is horribly, irrepalably wrong. [/quote]

The Chantry controlled Circles are horribly, irrevocably wrong for so many reasons (in the view of some of us), and we've gone over this numerous times.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

You’re using the different fate of two clans for two separate reasons to claim that all Dalish clans behave the same way. [/quote]

They all have mages as leaders, so...kinda
If you call the Circles a faliure because of Kirkwall abuse, I can call the Dalish clans a faliure because their mage-handling repeatedly fails. [/quote]

I condemn the Chantry controlled Circles for forcing mages into servitude to an anti-mage religious organization that preaches hatred and intolerance towards mages and magic. It's not quite the same thing as condemning all Dalish clans because werewolves attacked one clan in Ferelden, and the other clan can die because they attempt to murder the Champion of Kirkwall and Merrill in cold blood.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

So we should ignore how the mage protagonist, Fiona, Anders, and multiple mages view the Chantry controlled Circles? How Fiona thought the Circle of Magi was worse than her brutal background as a sex slave of an Orlesian noble? How Wynne dreamt of the Circle of Ferelden getting better through a progressive leader (the mage protagonist)? How Irving can be grateful for the Hero of Ferelden asking for the Magi Boon instead of a title and riches, thanking him profusely for freeing the mages from “their shackles”?[/quote]

Name droping is irrelevant.
People have oppinions and naturally different character even within the setting have their own.

Just because Anders sez something doesn't make it an objective truth. [/quote]

In-game authors, characters besides Anders, and the lore seem to suggest the same point of view about the nature of the Chantry controlled Circles.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Wynne explicitly asks The Warden to make the Circle of Ferleden better by becoming a progressive leader, because she doesn’t think she will live long enough to change the Circle of Ferelden from being an “oppressive place.” She argues against breaking free from the Chantry because she says the Chantry would rather murder all the mages rather than see them free from Chantry control.[/quote]

She EXPLICITLY sez one can have a nice and fulfilled life in the Circle.

You can repeat yourself a dozen times, so can I.[/quote]

You can repeat that as much as you like, but you're ignoring the fact that Wynne asks the mage protagonist to return to the Circle of Ferelden as a leader so that he can change the Circle.

[lil yonce]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I’m not nickpicking, I’m addressing the facts. 

You’re the one who decides to ignore certain facts if they don’t line up with your point of view.

You mean you actually use facts to support your arguments outside of our debate??? Whoa!

Coming from the person who ignores the information that comes from codex entries, characters, and lore because it disproves your argument?

Last time I checked an opinion or biased POV didn't constitute factual evidence.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

So your line of thinking is perfectly fine when it condemns mages and elves, but you abandon your line of thinking if it condemns humanity by using the same reasoning.

Nope, it's the same line of thiking. Different factors and parameters.

As I said apples and oranges. They're not the same and neither should they be treated as such.

It isn't apple and oranges, it's you condemning all mages and all elves when it suits your needs, but dropping your argument when the same is applied to condemn humanity.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I’m not nickpicking, I’m addressing the facts.

  .. As if.

Coming from the person who argued that he was right because it was "common sense," you'll have to excuse me if that doesn't persuade me.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You’re the one who decides to ignore certain facts if they don’t line up with your point of view. Such as Corypheus disproving the mythology of the Chantry in Legacy: Corypheus is confused at where he is, but he explicitly says that the City was Black when the Magisters arrived; he expresses anger and confusion at the fact that he was mislead by Dumat, because he says it was supposed to be Golden. In addition to the dwarven records depicting no ‘awakened darkspawn’ at the encounters in the Deep Roads, it suggests that the Magisters may have not caused the Blight if the City was Black prior to the arrival of the Magisters. It means the mythology of the Chantry is wrong.

It means nothing.
You said it yourself - corypheus was confused. And whos' to say the Golden City didnt' turn black the second they started their spell?

Corypheus was confused about where he was, while reciting facts about what he remembered.

[Terrorize69]

I just hope that blood mage actually gives unique skills like summoning shades.

Should be nice also to see a "deal" made if you decide to go down the blood mage with a demon, with each demon offering a unique skill. Like desire demon giving you the ability to influence enemies in combat and also in coversations, getting a unique option in the dialogue wheel.

[Abraham_uk]

The Vanguard in Mass Effect 2 & 3 promised high risk and high reward.
But in single player it only delivered moderate risk with high reward.


Blood magic however delivers high risk and high reward. But that only applies to gameplay. Keep spamming blood magic spells and you'll just pass out and die.

But story wise, no one seems to care if the Grey Warden or Hawke is a blood mage. Why is that?

[LobselVith8]

Youth4Ever wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Coming from the person who ignores the information that comes from codex entries, characters, and lore because it disproves your argument?

Last time I checked an opinion or biased POV didn't constitute factual evidence.

Last time I checked, your point of view disagreed with multiple authors and characters who had a consensus on the Chantry controlled Circles.