2177 réponses à ce sujet

[Terrorize69]

Abraham_uk wrote...

The Vanguard in Mass Effect 2 & 3 promised high risk and high reward.
But in single player it only delivered moderate risk with high reward.


Blood magic however delivers high risk and high reward. But that only applies to gameplay. Keep spamming blood magic spells and you'll just pass out and die.

But story wise, no one seems to care if the Grey Warden or Hawke is a blood mage. Why is that?

I can understand people not caring or noticing about the Grey Warden.. but Hawke? The squadies heavily bash Merrill over it but Hawke, not one bats an eyelid lol. Even the Knight-Commander recognizes you as a rouge mage, but doesn't notice the blood magic..

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

I don't know about Merrill; she subtly manipulated events so that her Keeper was off her back, and if she played her cards right, her entire clan destroyed.  

Excuse me, but are you actually blaming Merrill because grown men and women attempt to murder Hawke and Merrill in cold blood if Hawke tells them the truth about Marethari? 

And Merrill left the clan to pursue technology that she believed could irrevocably change the lives of the People for the better. She didn't manipulate Keeper Marethari; she left the clan to pursue her own path in life, while Marethari poisoned the clan against her in an attempt to coerce her to return to the fold.

BlueMagitek wrote...
I'm not sure how you can add a "good" check to someone like that. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie] 

Because being the victim of attempted murder makes you "bad"?

BlueMagitek wrote...

Perhaps Decimus; did he engage in demon summoning or mind manipulation?  I don't recall.

Decimus engaged in being stupid and insane, and thinking that Merrill, Varric, and Fenris were templars. It's apparently easy to confuse a Dalish elf wearing elven attire with an armed and armored templar.

BlueMagitek wrote...

Your Grey Wardens, though, yes, they do use it for good when it is used against Darkspawn.  Mostly.  But once again, they have a chain on them worse than the Circle, don't they?

You mean the darkspawn taint? I don't see how that's remotely the same thing as living under the subjugation of the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars.

BlueMagitek wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Potentially Hawke and the Warden. And just because you know it, and can't unknow it, doesn't mean you have to use it. 

PCs don't count, they aren't bound by the rules. 

Actually, The Warden being a blood mage is no different than Duncan's example of Grey Warden mages using blood magic to defeat the darkspawn, while apostate Hawke being a blood mage is no different than Merrill being a blood mage who doesn't abuse her abilities.

[lil yonce]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Coming from the person who ignores the information that comes from codex entries, characters, and lore because it disproves your argument?

Last time I checked an opinion or biased POV didn't constitute factual evidence.

Last time I checked, your point of view disagreed with multiple authors and characters who had a consensus on the Chantry controlled Circles.

Yeah, because their opinions are not based in nor supported by fact. It's merely their opinion.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 15 octobre 2012 - 07:16 .

[BlueMagitek]

^ That would be nice.  I suppose a rage demon would make your enemies mad, bro?  Or, rather, put into a beserked state where they gain bonuses to damage but forget to use their techniques. 

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Chantry controlled Circles are horribly, irrevocably wrong for so many reasons (in the view of some of us), and we've gone over this numerous times.

I condemn the Chantry controlled Circles for forcing mages into servitude to an anti-mage religious organization that preaches hatred and intolerance towards mages and magic. It's not quite the same thing as condemning all Dalish clans because werewolves attacked one clan in Ferelden, and the other clan can die because they attempt to murder the Champion of Kirkwall and Merrill in cold blood.

You can repeat that as much as you like, but you're ignoring the fact that Wynne asks the mage protagonist to return to the Circle of Ferelden as a leader so that he can change the Circle.

Alright, please, without any vitrol words, list why they're wrong.  

The only place that doesn't seem to do this (that have a well established hierarchical roles) is Tevinter, and that's where the Chantry forces Mages into Circles into servitude to Magisters.  The Dalish are nomadic and have a completely different culture, we don't really know very much about Rivani hedge mages or the various Dragon Cults.  And the Qunari are so much worse.

Of course.  You can always make a place better.  There isn't a utopia in Thedas.  But that doesn't mean that the Circle isn't a step up from most of the living conditions in Thedas.

And, of course, you're still stepping away from the Blood Magic discussion.

[BlueMagitek]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Excuse me, but are you actually blaming Merrill because grown men and women attempt to murder Hawke and Merrill in cold blood if Hawke tells them the truth about Marethari? 

And Merrill left the clan to pursue technology that she believed could irrevocably change the lives of the People for the better. She didn't manipulate Keeper Marethari; she left the clan to pursue her own path in life, while Marethari poisoned the clan against her in an attempt to coerce her to return to the fold.

Decimus engaged in being stupid and insane, and thinking that Merrill, Varric, and Fenris were templars. It's apparently easy to confuse a Dalish elf wearing elven attire with an armed and armored templar.

You mean the darkspawn taint? I don't see how that's remotely the same thing as living under the subjugation of the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars.

Actually, The Warden being a blood mage is no different than Duncan's example of Grey Warden mages using blood magic to defeat the darkspawn, while apostate Hawke being a blood mage is no different than Merrill being a blood mage who doesn't abuse her abilities.

And you fell for Merrill's lies as well.  She manipulated everyone into getting her way.  Alas poor Tamlen, we knew him well. 

Blood Magic shouldn't make you dumber.  I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Well, you know, being tied into creatures that want the domination of the world and the end of your life as a ghoul is a bit worse off then living in a tower.

PCs aren't bound by the typical rules that hold for NPCs.

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Excuse me, but are you actually blaming Merrill because grown men and women attempt to murder Hawke and Merrill in cold blood if Hawke tells them the truth about Marethari? 

And Merrill left the clan to pursue technology that she believed could irrevocably change the lives of the People for the better. She didn't manipulate Keeper Marethari; she left the clan to pursue her own path in life, while Marethari poisoned the clan against her in an attempt to coerce her to return to the fold.

Decimus engaged in being stupid and insane, and thinking that Merrill, Varric, and Fenris were templars. It's apparently easy to confuse a Dalish elf wearing elven attire with an armed and armored templar.

You mean the darkspawn taint? I don't see how that's remotely the same thing as living under the subjugation of the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars.

Actually, The Warden being a blood mage is no different than Duncan's example of Grey Warden mages using blood magic to defeat the darkspawn, while apostate Hawke being a blood mage is no different than Merrill being a blood mage who doesn't abuse her abilities. 

And you fell for Merrill's lies as well.  She manipulated everyone into getting her way.  Alas poor Tamlen, we knew him well.   

I respected Merrill for being proactive about the plight of the People. Rather than doing nothing, she took steps to restore technology that baffled the Tevinter Magisters, and sought to create a functional Eluvian. Technology that may have been able to dramatically improve the lives of the People. She was a proficient blood mage who refused to simply accept the decline of her people.

Marethari argues against the research, but she doesn't seem to have conducted any research into the Eluvian. Her argument was initially that she didn't think the ancestors wanted the Eluvian to be found (despite the ancient elves losing the Eluvians because of the conquest by Tevinter), and the latter argument was that she believed the Eluvian would be used by Audacity to escape, despite the fact that it was sundered from the Fade and trapped in a totem by ancient magic.

Tamlen and Mahariel perished because they were infected by the taint in the Eluvian, which was successfully removed by Merrill. She also left the clan to pursue her effort into restoring technology that might have a positive impact on the elves. Merrill leaves the clan to pursue the restoration of the Eluvian, extrapolating information from the shard and studying the lore on the Eluvian.

BlueMagitek wrote...

Blood Magic shouldn't make you dumber.  I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Decimus was an insane buffoon. The mage antagonists in Dragon Age II were basically insane lunatics who seldom made any sense in their actions or motives. No one should confuse Merrill for a templar, after all.

BlueMagitek wrote...

Well, you know, being tied into creatures that want the domination of the world and the end of your life as a ghoul is a bit worse off then living in a tower.

I'm sure Karl and Alain would disagree.

BlueMagitek wrote...

PCs aren't bound by the typical rules that hold for NPCs.

Yet The Warden being a blood mage has precedent from Duncan's revelation in the Magi Origin about Grey Warden mages using blood magic to defeat the darkspawn, and apostate Hawke being a blood mage is no different than Merrill using her blood magic to help people.

[BlueMagitek]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I respected Merrill for being proactive about the plight of the People. Rather than doing nothing, she took steps to restore technology that baffled the Tevinter Magisters, and sought to create a functional Eluvian. Technology that may have been able to dramatically improve the lives of the People. She was a proficient blood mage who refused to simply accept the decline of her people.

Marethari argues against the research, but she doesn't seem to have conducted any research into the Eluvian. Her argument was initially that she didn't think the ancestors wanted the Eluvian to be found (despite the ancient elves losing the Eluvians because of the conquest by Tevinter), and the latter argument was that she believed the Eluvian would be used by Audacity to escape, despite the fact that it was sundered from the Fade and trapped in a totem by ancient magic.

Tamlen and Mahariel perished because they were infected by the taint in the Eluvian, which was successfully removed by Merrill. She also left the clan to pursue her effort into restoring technology that might have a positive impact on the elves. Merrill leaves the clan to pursue the restoration of the Eluvian, extrapolating information from the shard and studying the lore on the Eluvian.

Decimus was an insane buffoon. The mage antagonists in Dragon Age II were basically insane lunatics who seldom made any sense in their actions or motives. No one should confuse Merrill for a templar, after all.

I'm sure Karl and Alain would disagree.

Yet The Warden being a blood mage has precedent from Duncan's revelation in the Magi Origin about Grey Warden mages using blood magic to defeat the darkspawn, and apostate Hawke being a blood mage is no different than Merrill using her blood magic to help people.

How convenient that you happen to remove all of her problems for her, then. 

I would hardly use the worst case as the average experience for all mages.  And there's yet to be a better, feasible alternative offered.

You don't seem to get it; the PC doesn't really interact with the world the same was the NPCs do.  They're controlled by the player.  A Human Noble for example, if an NPC, would probably have greater belief in the Chantry than your average HN PC.  The PC Mage can make a deal with the demon for Connor's soul and just reload, trolol, got blood magic with no problem.  Using someone who isn't bound by the same rules as everyone else as an example isn't fair.

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Chantry controlled Circles are horribly, irrevocably wrong for so many reasons (in the view of some of us), and we've gone over this numerous times.

I condemn the Chantry controlled Circles for forcing mages into servitude to an anti-mage religious organization that preaches hatred and intolerance towards mages and magic. It's not quite the same thing as condemning all Dalish clans because werewolves attacked one clan in Ferelden, and the other clan can die because they attempt to murder the Champion of Kirkwall and Merrill in cold blood.

You can repeat that as much as you like, but you're ignoring the fact that Wynne asks the mage protagonist to return to the Circle of Ferelden as a leader so that he can change the Circle.

Alright, please, without any vitrol words, list why they're wrong.

Putting mages at the mercy of templars who are taught that they have "dominion over mages by divine right" is never going to end well, especially when the Chantry has vilified mages and magic for centuries, to the point where we have several Andrastian characters who continually note that mages are "cursed." Wynne addresses how people in Andrastian society murder mages if things go wrong (like a flood or an infant dying), because the Chantry has vilified mages to the point where they are the immediate target of violence; even Mother Hannah needs to assure the Amell Warden that a lynch mob won't attempt to murder him for being a mage. The Chantry controlled Circles are toxic enviornments where a mage can escape by running away and being hunted by the templars, or committing suicide.

BlueMagitek wrote...

The only place that doesn't seem to do this (that have a well established hierarchical roles) is Tevinter, and that's where the Chantry forces Mages into Circles into servitude to Magisters.  

Mages and non-mages alike are enslaved to the Magisters.

BlueMagitek wrote...

The Dalish are nomadic and have a completely different culture, we don't really know very much about Rivani hedge mages or the various Dragon Cults.  And the Qunari are so much worse.

The Dalish clans are the remnants of the elves who lived in the nation of the Dales, a society that emulated the kingdom of Arlathan. The Avvar and the Chasind have their mages living alongside non-mages. The Rivaini seers aren't controlled by the templars, which is noted in the lore. 

It's interesting how Merrill notes that magic isn't vilified among the Dalish like it is in Andrastian society; the concept seems completely alien to Bethany.

BlueMagitek wrote...

Of course.  You can always make a place better.  There isn't a utopia in Thedas.  

Aldenon the Wise tried to create a kingdom where all people would be equal. The Chantry and the templars prevented that.

BlueMagitek wrote...

But that doesn't mean that the Circle isn't a step up from most of the living conditions in Thedas.

Subjugation isn't a step up from freedom; otherwise, there wouldn't be a continential revolution taking place across the Andrastian nations.

BlueMagitek wrote...

And, of course, you're still stepping away from the Blood Magic discussion. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/pouty.png[/smilie] 

Perhaps you shouldn't have asked for this response, then.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Putting mages at the mercy of templars who are taught that they have "dominion over mages by divine right" is never going to end well, especially when the Chantry has vilified mages and magic for centuries, to the point where we have several Andrastian characters who continually note that mages are "cursed." Wynne addresses how people in Andrastian society murder mages if things go wrong (like a flood or an infant dying), because the Chantry has vilified mages to the point where they are the immediate target of violence; even Mother Hannah needs to assure the Amell Warden that a lynch mob won't attempt to murder him for being a mage. The Chantry controlled Circles are toxic enviornments where a mage can escape by running away and being hunted by the templars, or committing suicide.

Oh boy..here we go..
Infalting the evil or templars again.

First of all Gregoir said Curse AND blessing. Which is very accurate.
You like to belive that all the templars and everyone in the Chantry hate mages, but that is flat out wrong. Even the villifiyng mages part. The Chantry speaks the truth. Mages are dangerous. That is not vilifying, that is an estabished fact.
Drug-addled zealots? Most templars come off as fine, reasonable people. But hey, they are religious, so that must make me crazy, right?

The Dalish clans are the remnants of the elves who lived in the nation of the Dales, a society that emulated the kingdom of Arlathan. The Avvar and the Chasind have their mages living alongside non-mages. The Rivaini seers aren't controlled by the templars, which is noted in the lore.

And all of those systems suck interestingly enough.
Nomands, dying clans, primitive societies...notice a pattern here? Not the groundwork for a stable society, now is it?

Aldenon the Wise tried to create a kingdom where all people would be equal. The Chantry and the templars prevented that.

Aldenon the Fool.
He wanted impossible things and spread lies of utopia. We all know in reality he wanted to be the ruler of thid "utopia".

Subjugation isn't a step up from freedom; otherwise, there wouldn't be a continential revolution taking place across the Andrastian nations.

The living conditions and life noditions in general are better for mages than your average Joe. They have just a few restrictions. They are significant ones, but overall one can live with it. The mages are spoiled, whiny emos.

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I respected Merrill for being proactive about the plight of the People. Rather than doing nothing, she took steps to restore technology that baffled the Tevinter Magisters, and sought to create a functional Eluvian. Technology that may have been able to dramatically improve the lives of the People. She was a proficient blood mage who refused to simply accept the decline of her people.

Marethari argues against the research, but she doesn't seem to have conducted any research into the Eluvian. Her argument was initially that she didn't think the ancestors wanted the Eluvian to be found (despite the ancient elves losing the Eluvians because of the conquest by Tevinter), and the latter argument was that she believed the Eluvian would be used by Audacity to escape, despite the fact that it was sundered from the Fade and trapped in a totem by ancient magic.

Tamlen and Mahariel perished because they were infected by the taint in the Eluvian, which was successfully removed by Merrill. She also left the clan to pursue her effort into restoring technology that might have a positive impact on the elves. Merrill leaves the clan to pursue the restoration of the Eluvian, extrapolating information from the shard and studying the lore on the Eluvian.

Decimus was an insane buffoon. The mage antagonists in Dragon Age II were basically insane lunatics who seldom made any sense in their actions or motives. No one should confuse Merrill for a templar, after all.

I'm sure Karl and Alain would disagree.

Yet The Warden being a blood mage has precedent from Duncan's revelation in the Magi Origin about Grey Warden mages using blood magic to defeat the darkspawn, and apostate Hawke being a blood mage is no different than Merrill using her blood magic to help people.

How convenient that you happen to remove all of her problems for her, then.   

That's one way to put Hawke and Merrill dealing with attempted murder by the clan.

BlueMagitek wrote...

I would hardly use the worst case as the average experience for all mages.  And there's yet to be a better, feasible alternative offered.

Actually, the mages are fighting for their alternative: autonomy. In essence, the Magi Boon, on a continential scale.

BlueMagitek wrote...

You don't seem to get it; the PC doesn't really interact with the world the same was the NPCs do.  They're controlled by the player.  A Human Noble for example, if an NPC, would probably have greater belief in the Chantry than your average HN PC.  The PC Mage can make a deal with the demon for Connor's soul and just reload, trolol, got blood magic with no problem.  Using someone who isn't bound by the same rules as everyone else as an example isn't fair.

While the Human Noble can express that he doesn't believe in the Maker, atheism isn't limited to the PC. The protagonist isn't a robot; he's supposed to be a person with his own thoughts, ideas, and values.

Your example is an issue regarding game mechanics; it doesn't change the fact that The Warden becoming a blood mage has precedence among the Wardens. It's also possible to coerce the Desire Demon into leaving Connor alone, and learning specialized blood magic in exchange for not engaging the denizen of the Fade in combat. However, a mage doesn't need a demon to learn blood magic; it can be taught by another mage (as we see with the Orlesian Warden asking the Baroness to teach him blood magic at a time when he assumes that she is simply a mage), or learned from books (which is how Jowan is inferred to have learned the craft).

[Lotion Soronarr]

Cultist wrote...
And I wondered when you will return to your usual swearing self

I learned it all for you sensei.

If I quote lore and facts then I state only what they are stating, obviously. Should I remind you your fanfiction from back then about how Chantry will act towards Warden? And as far as I remember, you stated that only one "logic" is "right" - yours, and everything else is stupid, false and idiotic. That sure is a pinnacle of reasonable approach to analyzing "human behaviour and common sense". 

Wrong. I never said "will" I said "most probably will". A reasonable reaction based on normal human behavior and goals of hte chatnry and historical precedences.
You are the one - who agaisnt all reason - thinks that the Chantry will ignore the most important archeological and spiritual find and probably the most important artifact on TheDas. And yet you have at no point given anything to support this other than "the Chatnry didn't help me in Loithering" (which in itself is an incredibly stupid argument to being with).

Tevinter survived the Blights. and society ruled by mages somehow managed to avoid being overrun by possessed mages, abominations and daily random explosions, Damn cheaters!

Again, you equate survival of an entire kingdom with there not being an issue. Which is a compeltely flawed concept.

Connor was untrained, and why he was untrained? Because Chantry stated that children with magical abilities must be taken from their parents. Chantry provoked his mother into hiding him.

Taken away to be TRAINED. The irony of your objection is hillarious.
B.t.w. Uldred was trained. Didn't help him, now did it?
You again assume that Connor being trained would guarantee he wouldn't be possesed or that it would influnce the outcome at all. Something that you cannot back up with anything. We seen plenty of trained mages fall.

For you, only that could be compared, that suits you. Once you find it disproves your statements and proves you wrong, immediately it becomes "apples and oranges"

No, it is apples and oranges because it is different.
The variables are vastly different.
Quite redicolously so in fact.

Well, it is you who keep telling that only you know the only Absolute Truth and everyone who disagree with you is ignorant, clueless and know nothing. It is not mine posts that are cleared by moderators to remove "inflammatory comments". Think about it.

You say the same things, expect in not so many words.
I just happen to be more blunt about it.
What can I say. It's easy to make these statements when debating with you, cause you are so often so wrong.

Albeit they say, that laugh is a defesive reaction, I'm glad you are so happy.
And all that "mages are content" argument is invalid - every Circle rebelled. That content and happy mages entered a war with the militant order, that specializes of killing and opposing magic wielders. Not some percentage of Circles were lost, all of them.

So? When a prison riots starts, pretty much everyone joins in. You wil lfind malcontents in every circle. Once a big enough group of mages rebel, many undecided will feel the pressure to join in with them. And some will try to stay out of it.
There's plenty of mages who ran and don't want anything to do with it. Again, all CIRCELS rebeled, not all mages.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Putting mages at the mercy of templars who are taught that they have "dominion over mages by divine right" is never going to end well, especially when the Chantry has vilified mages and magic for centuries, to the point where we have several Andrastian characters who continually note that mages are "cursed." Wynne addresses how people in Andrastian society murder mages if things go wrong (like a flood or an infant dying), because the Chantry has vilified mages to the point where they are the immediate target of violence; even Mother Hannah needs to assure the Amell Warden that a lynch mob won't attempt to murder him for being a mage. The Chantry controlled Circles are toxic enviornments where a mage can escape by running away and being hunted by the templars, or committing suicide.

Oh boy..here we go..
Infalting the evil or templars again.

First of all Gregoir said Curse AND blessing. Which is very accurate.  

Which doesn't change the fact that the Chantry preaches that magic is a curse, as we know from Keili, Bethany, and Meredith.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You like to belive that all the templars and everyone in the Chantry hate mages, but that is flat out wrong. Even the villifiyng mages part. The Chantry speaks the truth. Mages are dangerous. That is not vilifying, that is an estabished fact.

I'll keep that in mind the next time Wynne talks about how Andrastians murder mages because of how their society views them, while Mother Hannah assures the Amell Warden that a mob won't try to murder him.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Drug-addled zealots? Most templars come off as fine, reasonable people. But hey, they are religious, so that must make me crazy, right?

Which doesn't change the fact that mages are forced into servitude to the Chantry, with the templars having "dominion over mages" in the name of the Maker. And the Chantry uses religion to force mages to live under the tyranny of the Chantry controlled Circles.

Also, Merrill is religious, too. She believes in the Creators, and doesn't believe in Spirits and Demons as the Children of the Maker, simply that the denizens of the Fade/Beyond are spirits.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Dalish clans are the remnants of the elves who lived in the nation of the Dales, a society that emulated the kingdom of Arlathan. The Avvar and the Chasind have their mages living alongside non-mages. The Rivaini seers aren't controlled by the templars, which is noted in the lore.

And all of those systems suck interestingly enough.
Nomands, dying clans, primitive societies...notice a pattern here? Not the groundwork for a stable society, now is it?

That argument makes no sense. Rivaini is a kingdom, and the nation of the Dales fell after the war with the Orlesian Empire and the Chantry of Andraste.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Aldenon the Wise tried to create a kingdom where all people would be equal. The Chantry and the templars prevented that.

Aldenon the Fool.
He wanted impossible things and spread lies of utopia. We all know in reality he wanted to be the ruler of thid "utopia".

There's no evidence to support that lunacy.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Subjugation isn't a step up from freedom; otherwise, there wouldn't be a continential revolution taking place across the Andrastian nations.

The living conditions and life noditions in general are better for mages than your average Joe. They have just a few restrictions. They are significant ones, but overall one can live with it. The mages are spoiled, whiny emos.

I believe Aldenon the Wise, Anders, and pro-mage Hawke use the term slavery in reference to the Chantry controlled Circles.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
It is irrelevant because it doens't change the fact that two dalish mages brought their clans to the bink of distruction.
What the Warden/Hawke does is irrelevant. 
Without him (or even with him) both of those clans are doomed.

Actually, Zathrian's clan is attacked by werewolves, and Marethari's clan will attempt to murder Hawke and Merrill in cold blood unless they are coddled; the two examples are extremely different.

Zathrians clas is attacked by Warevolfes he himself created. Cause of disaster: mage.
Marethari's clan? What would happen to it had Hawke not discovered Merathari? If Hawke can slaughter the ramains of the clan, then so can the abomination.

*SNIP*
 

Sicne you seem to just repeat yourself almost exactly word by word, over and over again, I'm just gonna skip this bit.
Nothing new to add.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Occasional abuses are pretty much expected (given the setting and time period...heck, even today they wouldn't be out of place) and they do not indicate that everything is horribly, irrepalably wrong.

The Chantry controlled Circles are horribly, irrevocably wrong for so many reasons (in the view of some of us), and we've gone over this numerous times.

Indeed we have.
And plenty of us think otherwise.

I condemn the Chantry controlled Circles for forcing mages into servitude to an anti-mage religious organization that preaches hatred and intolerance towards mages and magic. It's not quite the same thing as condemning all Dalish clans because werewolves attacked one clan in Ferelden, and the other clan can die because they attempt to murder the Champion of Kirkwall and Merrill in cold blood.

Very similar actually.
All Dalish clans share the same structural weakness.

LobselVith8 wrote...
In-game authors, characters besides Anders, and the lore seem to suggest the same point of view about the nature of the Chantry controlled Circles.

And others seem to disagree.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
She EXPLICITLY sez one can have a nice and fulfilled life in the Circle.

You can repeat yourself a dozen times, so can I.

You can repeat that as much as you like, but you're ignoring the fact that Wynne asks the mage protagonist to return to the Circle of Ferelden as a leader so that he can change the Circle.

And youre ignoring what she said earlier.
Can the Warden make the circle better? Probably, nothing is so perfect that it can never be further improved, even by little.
Plenty of mages seem content in the Circles. That's proof enough.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Nope, it's the same line of thiking. Different factors and parameters.

As I said apples and oranges. They're not the same and neither should they be treated as such.

It isn't apple and oranges, it's you condemning all mages and all elves when it suits your needs, but dropping your argument when the same is applied to condemn humanity.

I'm not dropping the argument. I'm not chaning the argument.
The variables change.
The numbers change.
And that of coruse, lead to the end result of an equation to change.

You really think that the fact that normal humans are 99% of the population and mages are 1% does have no influence on any deliberations?
That the factor of danger has no influence? Predicatability? Logistics?

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
It means nothing.
You said it yourself - corypheus was confused. And whos' to say the Golden City didnt' turn black the second they started their spell?

Corypheus was confused about where he was, while reciting facts about what he remembered.

Everything is suspect.
How do you even know he remembers accurately - it has been hunderds of years after all.

[KainD]

I don't get it, where are you guys going with this discussion? You simply don't agree.
Imo discussions make sense when one is not sure of what to make of the situation completely and shares opinions with other people to get to a conclusion. Like for example HOW exactly to make circles work, or HOW exactly to make free mage society work. But it has to be discussed by people who agree on basic principles of life and have similar morals.
But when you simply don't agree with the BASE concept in the first place, aka circle vs free, then you just won't come to any conclusions.

[BlueMagitek]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Putting mages at the mercy of templars who are taught that they have "dominion over mages by divine right" is never going to end well, especially when the Chantry has vilified mages and magic for centuries, to the point where we have several Andrastian characters who continually note that mages are "cursed." Wynne addresses how people in Andrastian society murder mages if things go wrong (like a flood or an infant dying), because the Chantry has vilified mages to the point where they are the immediate target of violence; even Mother Hannah needs to assure the Amell Warden that a lynch mob won't attempt to murder him for being a mage. The Chantry controlled Circles are toxic enviornments where a mage can escape by running away and being hunted by the templars, or committing suicide.

Mages and non-mages alike are enslaved to the Magisters.

The Dalish clans are the remnants of the elves who lived in the nation of the Dales, a society that emulated the kingdom of Arlathan. The Avvar and the Chasind have their mages living alongside non-mages. The Rivaini seers aren't controlled by the templars, which is noted in the lore. 

It's interesting how Merrill notes that magic isn't vilified among the Dalish like it is in Andrastian society; the concept seems completely alien to Bethany.

Aldenon the Wise tried to create a kingdom where all people would be equal. The Chantry and the templars prevented that.

Subjugation isn't a step up from freedom; otherwise, there wouldn't be a continential revolution taking place across the Andrastian nations.

Perhaps you shouldn't have asked for this response, then.

Yes, some Templar are corrupt and the Seekers should be doing a better job, I agree with you there.
Only the Orlesian Chantry and the Qun, really.  The Tevinter Chantry is totally fine with magic, taking a different interpretation of the "Magic must serve man" line. 
Or, they can follow the rules and can leave the Circle so long as they check back in.  Or find a patron in high places (the mage who controlled Shale). 
And what is your viable proposed alternative then?

But a Mage can rise up to Magister.

And now they're very close nomads.  And the Avvar are Chasind are barbarian tribes, you can't just scale up their system and expect the same results.

And it would, considering she's been an apostate, born to a blackmailed apostate on the run.

See, I don't see anything in any description on Aldenon about raising up the serfs and treating Elves fairly.  So... 'equality' for those with powers, not so much to others?

The Circle system protects the mages from the people and the people from the mages.  You said yourself that mages are killed for a bad harvest or a flood. 

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Actually, Zathrian's clan is attacked by werewolves, and Marethari's clan will attempt to murder Hawke and Merrill in cold blood unless they are coddled; the two examples are extremely different.

Zathrians clas is attacked by Warevolfes he himself created. Cause of disaster: mage.
Marethari's clan? What would happen to it had Hawke not discovered Merathari? If Hawke can slaughter the ramains of the clan, then so can the abomination.

The former is a result of Zathrian's actions against the men and women who assaulted his children, and the latter is the result of grown men and women attempting to commit cold blooded murder, which is why Marethari's clan will perish.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Chantry controlled Circles are horribly, irrevocably wrong for so many reasons (in the view of some of us), and we've gone over this numerous times.

Indeed we have.
And plenty of us think otherwise.

Which is the divide between the people who agree with the mages, and the people who agree with the templars. There can be no compromise.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I condemn the Chantry controlled Circles for forcing mages into servitude to an anti-mage religious organization that preaches hatred and intolerance towards mages and magic. It's not quite the same thing as condemning all Dalish clans because werewolves attacked one clan in Ferelden, and the other clan can die because they attempt to murder the Champion of Kirkwall and Merrill in cold blood.

Very similar actually.
All Dalish clans share the same structural weakness.

Cursed werewolves and committing suicide by Hawke?

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

In-game authors, characters besides Anders, and the lore seem to suggest the same point of view about the nature of the Chantry controlled Circles.

And others seem to disagree.

Which authors? Which characters?

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You can repeat that as much as you like, but you're ignoring the fact that Wynne asks the mage protagonist to return to the Circle of Ferelden as a leader so that he can change the Circle.

And youre ignoring what she said earlier.
Can the Warden make the circle better? Probably, nothing is so perfect that it can never be further improved, even by little.
Plenty of mages seem content in the Circles. That's proof enough.

You mean the plenty of mages who rebelled across the continent? After speaking with Aneirin, Wynne can respond to the mage protagonist addressing that it's an "oppressive place" by stating that The Warden can change this, with time. She argues against breaking free from the Chantry in Amaranthine because she says the Chantry would kill all the mages, rather than see them free.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Oh boy..here we go..
Infalting the evil or templars again.

First of all Gregoir said Curse AND blessing. Which is very accurate.  

Which doesn't change the fact that the Chantry preaches that magic is a curse, as we know from Keili, Bethany, and Meredith.

Youre reading too much into it.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You like to belive that all the templars and everyone in the Chantry hate mages, but that is flat out wrong. Even the villifiyng mages part. The Chantry speaks the truth. Mages are dangerous. That is not vilifying, that is an estabished fact.

I'll keep that in mind the next time Wynne talks about how Andrastians murder mages because of how their society views them, while Mother Hannah assures the Amell Warden that a mob won't try to murder him.

S*** happens.
Mages are feared for a reason and there's pletny of stupid people in the world.
It proves nothing.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Drug-addled zealots? Most templars come off as fine, reasonable people. But hey, they are religious, so that must make me crazy, right?

Which doesn't change the fact that mages are forced into servitude to the Chantry, with the templars having "dominion over mages" in the name of the Maker. And the Chantry uses religion to force mages to live under the tyranny of the Chantry controlled Circles.

So? The line can be - as almost any line - interpreted in a bajjilion ways.
I see no problem with templars watching over mages.
Waht you call tyranny I call reasonable necessity.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And all of those systems suck interestingly enough.
Nomands, dying clans, primitive societies...notice a pattern here? Not the groundwork for a stable society, now is it?

That argument makes no sense. Rivaini is a kingdom, and the nation of the Dales fell after the war with the Orlesian Empire and the Chantry of Andraste.

Riviani also has a Circle.
And all of the elven kingdoms fell. The Dalish are scattered.

There's no evidence to support that lunacy.

That's exactly how I feel for half of your replies.

I believe Aldenon the Wise, Anders, and pro-mage Hawke use the term slavery in reference to the Chantry controlled Circles.

I care not what terms they use. They are menaingless.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Zathrians clas is attacked by Warevolfes he himself created. Cause of disaster: mage.
Marethari's clan? What would happen to it had Hawke not discovered Merathari? If Hawke can slaughter the ramains of the clan, then so can the abomination.

The former is a result of Zathrian's actions against the men and women who assaulted his children, and the latter is the result of grown men and women attempting to commit cold blooded murder, which is why Marethari's clan will perish.

So? It changes nothing. Zathrian is the cause of his clans deminse.
And Merathari would be the undoing of her clan (without hawke to kill her).

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Very similar actually.
All Dalish clans share the same structural weakness.

Cursed werewolves and committing suicide by Hawke?

Mages running free.



I won't respond to your other posts because you're again, for the dectellionth time, just copy-pasting your previous post.

[BlueMagitek]

LobselVith8 wrote...

That's one way to put Hawke and Merrill dealing with attempted murder by the clan.

Actually, the mages are fighting for their alternative: autonomy. In essence, the Magi Boon, on a continential scale.

While the Human Noble can express that he doesn't believe in the Maker, atheism isn't limited to the PC. The protagonist isn't a robot; he's supposed to be a person with his own thoughts, ideas, and values.

Your example is an issue regarding game mechanics; it doesn't change the fact that The Warden becoming a blood mage has precedence among the Wardens. It's also possible to coerce the Desire Demon into leaving Connor alone, and learning specialized blood magic in exchange for not engaging the denizen of the Fade in combat. However, a mage doesn't need a demon to learn blood magic; it can be taught by another mage (as we see with the Orlesian Warden asking the Baroness to teach him blood magic at a time when he assumes that she is simply a mage), or learned from books (which is how Jowan is inferred to have learned the craft).

It's not my fault that Hawke found himself in that situation.

Are they going to take responsibility for every mage that commits ill outside of these new Ovals?

No, but the PC has options that an NPC in the same position wouldn't have.  The PC doesn't need to worry about, well, anything really, if you don't want them to.  From your example, a PC Mage Warden can express that the Circle is a prison, or he might not mind it at all.  Using anything they say or do as an example isn't really fair, because most of the time they can react in two or three different ways.

Yes, I'm well aware of what you can do with the Desire Demon.  It can be taught by a blood mage, demons and books.  Those are the options. 

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Putting mages at the mercy of templars who are taught that they have "dominion over mages by divine right" is never going to end well, especially when the Chantry has vilified mages and magic for centuries, to the point where we have several Andrastian characters who continually note that mages are "cursed." Wynne addresses how people in Andrastian society murder mages if things go wrong (like a flood or an infant dying), because the Chantry has vilified mages to the point where they are the immediate target of violence; even Mother Hannah needs to assure the Amell Warden that a lynch mob won't attempt to murder him for being a mage. The Chantry controlled Circles are toxic enviornments where a mage can escape by running away and being hunted by the templars, or committing suicide.

Mages and non-mages alike are enslaved to the Magisters.

The Dalish clans are the remnants of the elves who lived in the nation of the Dales, a society that emulated the kingdom of Arlathan. The Avvar and the Chasind have their mages living alongside non-mages. The Rivaini seers aren't controlled by the templars, which is noted in the lore. 

It's interesting how Merrill notes that magic isn't vilified among the Dalish like it is in Andrastian society; the concept seems completely alien to Bethany.

Aldenon the Wise tried to create a kingdom where all people would be equal. The Chantry and the templars prevented that.

Subjugation isn't a step up from freedom; otherwise, there wouldn't be a continential revolution taking place across the Andrastian nations.

Perhaps you shouldn't have asked for this response, then.

Yes, some Templar are corrupt and the Seekers should be doing a better job, I agree with you there.
Only the Orlesian Chantry and the Qun, really.  The Tevinter Chantry is totally fine with magic, taking a different interpretation of the "Magic must serve man" line.  

I don't see the Chantry controlled Circles as a solution; I see them as the problem.

BlueMagitek wrote...

Or, they can follow the rules and can leave the Circle so long as they check back in.  Or find a patron in high places (the mage who controlled Shale). 
And what is your viable proposed alternative then?

This has been addressed in the past; people don't disagree with mages being trained, but with mages being placed under the rule of an anti-mage religious organization. It's not the solution. As for an alternative, I think that a law enforcement group consisting of mages and skilled people trained in the tactics used by the templars would be much better, but without the religious teachings that make them think they have dominion over mages by divine right.

BlueMagitek wrote...

But a Mage can rise up to Magister.

Which means Tevinter is the only place in Thedas an elf can rise in their social status.

BlueMagitek wrote...

And now they're very close nomads.  And the Avvar are Chasind are barbarian tribes, you can't just scale up their system and expect the same results.

Which doesn't change what the Dales was like, before the war with Orlais & the Chantry. A nation where mages were not controlled by the templars.

BlueMagitek wrote...

And it would, considering she's been an apostate, born to a blackmailed apostate on the run.

Bethany is an Andrastian, and she addresses that she believed mages were supposed to be locked up according to her faith. It's why Merrill's society is so alien to her.

BlueMagitek wrote...

See, I don't see anything in any description on Aldenon about raising up the serfs and treating Elves fairly.  So... 'equality' for those with powers, not so much to others?

Since Aldenon strongly opposed slavery, and wanted to establish a kingdom of "free men," I'm assuming that's a far-fetched assumption. According to the codex:

"When Calenhad returned at the head of the Ash Warriors as Aldenon expected, so as well did templars and Circle mages join our host. Aldenon was in a fury such as I've never seen. He wanted a kingdom of free men, of moral people beholden to law. Where a common man could tend his land safely and in peace. He lifted his staff and his voice echoed through the hills: 'A civilization cannot be civil if it condones the slavery of another. And that is what this Circle is! But by accident of birth, those mages would be free to live, love, and die as they choose. The Circles will break—if it be one year, a decade, a century, or beyond. Tyrants always fall, and the downtrodden always strive for freedom!'

"Then Aldenon left."

Aldenon's dream was a kingdom of equality.

BlueMagitek wrote...

The Circle system protects the mages from the people and the people from the mages.  You said yourself that mages are killed for a bad harvest or a flood. 

Due to the Chantry preaching hatred and intolerance about mages and magic. 'Protecting them' from the very society they taught to hate them. There's a reason people are opposed to the Chantry.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 15 octobre 2012 - 09:35 .

[KainD]

I am pro mage freedom, but if there is no way to stop the circle from existing then I agree with LobselVith8, templars should be an organization that is not tied to the chantry in any way.

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That's one way to put Hawke and Merrill dealing with attempted murder by the clan.

Actually, the mages are fighting for their alternative: autonomy. In essence, the Magi Boon, on a continential scale.

While the Human Noble can express that he doesn't believe in the Maker, atheism isn't limited to the PC. The protagonist isn't a robot; he's supposed to be a person with his own thoughts, ideas, and values.

Your example is an issue regarding game mechanics; it doesn't change the fact that The Warden becoming a blood mage has precedence among the Wardens. It's also possible to coerce the Desire Demon into leaving Connor alone, and learning specialized blood magic in exchange for not engaging the denizen of the Fade in combat. However, a mage doesn't need a demon to learn blood magic; it can be taught by another mage (as we see with the Orlesian Warden asking the Baroness to teach him blood magic at a time when he assumes that she is simply a mage), or learned from books (which is how Jowan is inferred to have learned the craft).

It's not my fault that Hawke found himself in that situation.  

No, it's the grown men and women who tried to murder Hawke and Merrill who are at fault.

BlueMagitek wrote...

Are they going to take responsibility for every mage that commits ill outside of these new Ovals?

As opposed to the myraid of problems that transpire as a result of the Chantry controlled Circles, from suicide to rebellions to abominations? The simple fact is that I don't share your view on the Chantry controlled Circles; Lotion and you think they are the solution, but I think it's part of the problem. Kain has a point; we aren't going to agree on this.

BlueMagitek wrote...

No, but the PC has options that an NPC in the same position wouldn't have.  The PC doesn't need to worry about, well, anything really, if you don't want them to.  From your example, a PC Mage Warden can express that the Circle is a prison, or he might not mind it at all.  Using anything they say or do as an example isn't really fair, because most of the time they can react in two or three different ways.

You're addressing the difference between a Libertarian and a Loyalist. It's not that much of a stretch for the protagonist to have one viewpoint or the other.

BlueMagitek wrote...

Yes, I'm well aware of what you can do with the Desire Demon.  It can be taught by a blood mage, demons and books.  Those are the options. 

Ultimately, it comes down to the fact that I think blood magic is a valid option; I assume you disagree. We aren't going to reach a consensus on this.

[BlueMagitek]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't see the Chantry controlled Circles as a solution; I see them as the problem.

This has been addressed in the past; people don't disagree with mages being trained, but with mages being placed under the rule of an anti-mage religious organization. It's not the solution. As for an alternative, I think that a law enforcement group consisting of mages and skilled people trained in the tactics used by the templars would be much better, but without the religious teachings that make them think they have dominion over mages by divine right.

Which means Tevinter is the only place in Thedas an elf can rise in their social status.

Which doesn't change what the Dales was like, before the war with Orlais & the Chantry. A nation where mages were not controlled by the templars.

Bethany is an Andrastian, and she addresses that she believed mages were supposed to be locked up according to her faith. It's why Merrill's society is so alien to her.

Since Aldenon strongly opposed slavery, and wanted to establish a kingdom of "free men," I'm assuming that's a far-fetched assumption. According to the codex:

Due to the Chantry preaching hatred and intolerance about mages and magic. 'Protecting them' from the very society they taught to hate them. There's a reason people are opposed to the Chantry.

That is unfortunate, then. 

Viable alternative.  It'll be a cold day in the Fade when any Andrastian nation gives up their mages to go off to a place where you may have unbiased guardian.  It just isn't going to happen.  They're a strong military power and no sane ruler is going to just let them walk off.

Or the Qunari controlled lands.

Yes, and it doesn't exist anymore.  I don't see where you're going with this.

One aspect of her faith.  There exist alternative interpretation of Andrastian scripture.  And once again, she's going to here that quite a lot, given that she's been on the run.

That's quite the assumption to make.  Especially when he didn't really specify elves or dwarves. Assume what you want, but if you don't have specifics, it just defaults to humans.

I twas more than the Chantry; look back, other posts explain that the mages were being hunted down and that the Circle system was a compromise.  To stop people from killing each other.

LobselVith8 wrote...

No, it's the grown men and women who tried to murder Hawke and Merrill who are at fault.

As
opposed to the myraid of problems that transpire as a result of the
Chantry controlled Circles, from suicide to rebellions to
abominations? The simple fact is that I don't share your view on the
Chantry controlled Circles; Lotion and you think they are the solution,
but I think it's part of the problem. Kain has a point; we aren't going
to agree on this.

You're
addressing the difference between a Libertarian and a Loyalist. It's not
that much of a stretch for the protagonist to have one viewpoint or the
other.

Ultimately,
it comes down to the fact that I think blood magic is a valid option; I
assume you disagree. We aren't going to reach a consensus on
this.

Because of Merrill's actions.

No system is perfect, and a different system may be for the best.  But it isn't going to happen without a major change.  The Qunari and Tevinter will need to be dealt with first, then the culture will need to change.  Nations will need to be willing to put their magical weapons away.  There's too much that need to be changed.  Abominations also happen to Dalish.

Yes, the PC can have a number of views on the subject.  Which is why they can't really be counted.

Blood Magic is much too dangerous, especially when there isn't a way to fight against it.

[ImperatorMortis]

Blood Magic is powerful, and useful. I used to be against it but I realized that just closing your eyes, or ignoring it doesn't help anything.

Sure you can do some bad stuff with it, but you can do some good as well. For example, Hawkes father used Blood Magic to seal that ancient Tevinter away in that DLC.

Blood Magic is used to make Grey Wardens.

Blood Magic made it easier to save that kid who was possessed by a Desire demon, instead of having to use up god only knows how much Lyrium.

Closing your eyes, and pretending it doesn't exist, or trying to regulate that kind of thing doesn't help. Especially when a Mage can learn Blood Magic on his/her own. 

Cultist wrote...

Devs already said that only one specialization will be allowed. So either Blood Mage or Spirit healer, assuming they will leave SH for us.

Aw thats too bad. Blood Magic it is. 

Also it was Blood Mages (Tevinter Magisters) who created the Grey Wardens in the first place, and to the people who say that the blight was their fault from the beginning.

Legacy shows us that they might have been tricked, so no it probably wasn't their fault. 

In a way, everyone owes their lives to Blood Mages. 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 15 octobre 2012 - 11:11 .