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[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Cultist wrote...

Devs already said that only one specialization will be allowed. So either Blood Mage or Spirit healer, assuming they will leave SH for us.

Damn. I thought it was fun coming up with different combinations.

[DPSSOC]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I respected Merrill for being proactive about the plight of the People. Rather than doing nothing, she took steps to restore technology that baffled the Tevinter Magisters, and sought to create a functional Eluvian. Technology that may have been able to dramatically improve the lives of the People. She was a proficient blood mage who refused to simply accept the decline of her people.

Off topic I know but I have to disagree here.  Merrill's actions, even had they gone ideally, would only worsen the plight of the People.  The Dalish's problem is that they're stuck living in the past, never building anything new because of it.  Had the Dalish not been obsessed with recovering what was lost the history of the Dales might have gone very differently.  Maybe they would have accepted the presence of a Chantry for those among them who opted to follow that belief, maybe there wouldn't have been any military hostility from Orlais.  We'll never know admittedly but it's something to think about.

Militant isolationism and fixating on the past are not conducive to a productive society, and the Dalish cannot move forward until they stop looking back.  Marethari was the first progressive Dalish elf since the fall, she was the first one to look at their past and say, "Let's drop it."

Sorry for the off topic it just sets me off when people talk about the Dalish obsession as a good thing.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

How does learning how to create a magical artifact that completely ignores a rule of magic humans accept as unbreakable make the elves worse off? Merrill's actions are to some degree a symptom of a dystopian culture, but the result she sought would have been a good thing. The only problem is the path to that result.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 15 octobre 2012 - 11:23 .

[dragonflight288]

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
I respected Merrill for being proactive about the plight of the People. Rather than doing nothing, she took steps to restore technology that baffled the Tevinter Magisters, and sought to create a functional Eluvian. Technology that may have been able to dramatically improve the lives of the People. She was a proficient blood mage who refused to simply accept the decline of her people.

Off topic I know but I have to disagree here.  Merrill's actions, even had they gone ideally, would only worsen the plight of the People.  The Dalish's problem is that they're stuck living in the past, never building anything new because of it.  Had the Dalish not been obsessed with recovering what was lost the history of the Dales might have gone very differently.  Maybe they would have accepted the presence of a Chantry for those among them who opted to follow that belief, maybe there wouldn't have been any military hostility from Orlais.  We'll never know admittedly but it's something to think about.

Militant isolationism and fixating on the past are not conducive to a productive society, and the Dalish cannot move forward until they stop looking back.  Marethari was the first progressive Dalish elf since the fall, she was the first one to look at their past and say, "Let's drop it."

Sorry for the off topic it just sets me off when people talk about the Dalish obsession as a good thing.

Let's put it this way.

Tevinter stole the Eluvians from the ancient Arlathan elves. But the most they were able to get out of them were fancy telephones. Even if all Merrill could do was unlock that function, let's look at what would happen.

Merrill could present the eluvian to every clan the next time they met and teach them how to make them. And if every clan had an eluvian, then they could communicate quickly. Merethari's clan wouldn't have been on Sundermount for years. They could have just called up the nearest clan and had some halla delivered in less than a year.

If a clan makes a discovery or learns something new about magic, then all the clans could know about it within a week and not once every ten years.

Morrigan was able to make her eluvian a portal, so I believe she got its full functionality. She called it a portal to a place beyond the fade. The means its beyond the reach of spirits and demons. Is it more dangerous or less? I have no idea. I don't know enough. But Morrigan felt it was safer to raise the Old God Baby there than in Thedas where Flemeth dwelt.

Granted, almost anything could be considered safer when compared to Flemeth.

Tamlen and the Dalish Warden weren't corrupted by the mirror itself. They were corrupted by the darkspawn taint within the mirror. And that mirror still corrupts elves as shown in Witch Hunt. Merrill cleansed her eluvian shard and built a new eluvian almost from scratch. She just didn't know how to activate it. There was no darkspawn taint involved. And that's proven by the fact she had it in Kirkwall for almost a decade and not a single person got tainted.

Until we learn more, I don't see any downsides to an eluvian.

[Plaintiff]

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
I respected Merrill for being proactive about the plight of the People. Rather than doing nothing, she took steps to restore technology that baffled the Tevinter Magisters, and sought to create a functional Eluvian. Technology that may have been able to dramatically improve the lives of the People. She was a proficient blood mage who refused to simply accept the decline of her people.

Off topic I know but I have to disagree here.  Merrill's actions, even had they gone ideally, would only worsen the plight of the People.  The Dalish's problem is that they're stuck living in the past, never building anything new because of it.  Had the Dalish not been obsessed with recovering what was lost the history of the Dales might have gone very differently.  Maybe they would have accepted the presence of a Chantry for those among them who opted to follow that belief, maybe there wouldn't have been any military hostility from Orlais.  We'll never know admittedly but it's something to think about.

Militant isolationism and fixating on the past are not conducive to a productive society, and the Dalish cannot move forward until they stop looking back.  Marethari was the first progressive Dalish elf since the fall, she was the first one to look at their past and say, "Let's drop it."

Sorry for the off topic it just sets me off when people talk about the Dalish obsession as a good thing.

Marethari never said anything of the kind. She specifically (and only) wanted Merrill to abandon restoration of the eluvian because she erroneously believed it to be dangerous. The ancient elves clearly had magic and knowledge that is far superior to anything that anyone in Thedas has currently. Are you seriously saying that none of that stuff is worth knowing or having just because it's "in the past"?

Our real-life human society spends a great deal of time restoring old paintings and artifacts and music and movies and technological devices. We construct massive buildings dedicated to displaying these things from our history, and yet none of the technological 'marvels' from our past are as impressive as the Eluvian, or even our current technology.

It's completely understandable and not at all surprising that the Dalish would fixate on their ancient culture, on a time when things were better. The life they live now is utter crap. There's nothing worthwhile for them in present-day Thedas, where their only two choices are "social pariah" or "indentured servitude to humans", with the possible exception of Tevinter, which allows the social advancement of elves, but even then that option only really exists for the magically talented. There's nothing to look forward to either. There is no promised land for the Dalish. They have nowhere to settle, all the land is already owned, and anything less than near-complete self-ostracisation from other cultures will lead to their extinction.

[DPSSOC]

Ok as I said it's off topic so I don't want to go into too much detail here. I've got some stuff to do and then I might start a thread in the DA2 forums since it's not really relevant to DA3. It is not the particular instance of the Eluvian that's the problem it's the overarching attitude. The Dalish are stuck in this belief that the only way forward is back, that's the problem. Merrill's completion of the Eluvian would have furthered this attitude, that's why it would have been a negative thing. Yes that mirror, if it worked, would be an amazing thing to have, but it'd just dig the Dalish deeper into the same rutt they've been stuck in since Tevinter sunk Arlathan.

[Warrior Craess]

BlueMagitek wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I respected Merrill for being proactive about the plight of the People. Rather than doing nothing, she took steps to restore technology that baffled the Tevinter Magisters, and sought to create a functional Eluvian. Technology that may have been able to dramatically improve the lives of the People. She was a proficient blood mage who refused to simply accept the decline of her people.

Marethari argues against the research, but she doesn't seem to have conducted any research into the Eluvian. Her argument was initially that she didn't think the ancestors wanted the Eluvian to be found (despite the ancient elves losing the Eluvians because of the conquest by Tevinter), and the latter argument was that she believed the Eluvian would be used by Audacity to escape, despite the fact that it was sundered from the Fade and trapped in a totem by ancient magic.

Tamlen and Mahariel perished because they were infected by the taint in the Eluvian, which was successfully removed by Merrill. She also left the clan to pursue her effort into restoring technology that might have a positive impact on the elves. Merrill leaves the clan to pursue the restoration of the Eluvian, extrapolating information from the shard and studying the lore on the Eluvian.

Decimus was an insane buffoon. The mage antagonists in Dragon Age II were basically insane lunatics who seldom made any sense in their actions or motives. No one should confuse Merrill for a templar, after all.

I'm sure Karl and Alain would disagree.

Yet The Warden being a blood mage has precedent from Duncan's revelation in the Magi Origin about Grey Warden mages using blood magic to defeat the darkspawn, and apostate Hawke being a blood mage is no different than Merrill using her blood magic to help people.

How convenient that you happen to remove all of her problems for her, then. 

I would hardly use the worst case as the average experience for all mages.  And there's yet to be a better, feasible alternative offered.

You don't seem to get it; the PC doesn't really interact with the world the same was the NPCs do.  They're controlled by the player.  A Human Noble for example, if an NPC, would probably have greater belief in the Chantry than your average HN PC.  The PC Mage can make a deal with the demon for Connor's soul and just reload, trolol, got blood magic with no problem.  Using someone who isn't bound by the same rules as everyone else as an example isn't fair.

So Marenthari, who already sent me to the fade to free a mage from demons, is worried that I can't do it again? Merrill becomes a powerful mage by the end of the game, but she's no dreamer. So why should marenthari suddenly doubt Hawke?  Why not let Merrill take the risk, that she obviously wants to take, knowning Hawke is there to stop her if things go terribly wrong?  Instead of being all noble and self sacrificing (wait she's an apostate right so noble self sacrafising shouldn't be possible)? 

Merrill is about as upfront about the mirror as you can get. She never leads you to belief that she doesn't deal with demons. In fact you know about that right from the start. And while she's a bit nieve, she's fairly smart about distrusting demons. 

Your opinion that Merrill conned you is just that, nothing but an opinion. please stop trying to lay it off as fact. Personally I think your idea that merril wanted you to kill her old keeper and the clan is idiotic, but thats just my opinion and may not be factual at all. 

And even if what you said is true (it's not in my case, I understood what merril was doing from the beginning) how is her actions any worse than Isebella's?  With out Isebella stealing a book, the Qunari are never in Kirkwall, and the reagent would still be alive, and there would never have been a show done over who was in charge of Kirkwall. 

[Warrior Craess]

Youth4Ever wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I’m not nickpicking, I’m addressing the facts. 

You’re the one who decides to ignore certain facts if they don’t line up with your point of view.

You mean you actually use facts to support your arguments outside of our debate??? Whoa!

Coming from the person who ignores the information that comes from codex entries, characters, and lore because it disproves your argument?

Last time I checked an opinion or biased POV didn't constitute factual evidence.

Umm if codex and lore isn't factual basis, in a game with no real history, Then what exactly is fact?  Game mechanic descriptions? The magic 8-ball? einey meeny miny moe? 

Hate to burst your bubble, but in a fictional world, what the authors write as lore and codex or history is indeed factual. So if the codex says something it's "fact" becuase that what the authors of the game/book/movie want you to know. (actually I don't hate bursting your bubble at all, it's rather fun)

granted what npc's say, which often contradicts each other, should be viewed as their personal opinion. But lore, codex, and history should be taken as factual, becuase that is the only way for the creators of the fiction to build history into their game. 

[Warrior Craess]

hmmm I might have to replay the broken circle, as I've never had an issue with Irving becoming an abomination. curious though, how you get out since Gregoir said he'd only open the door to Irving?

[TEWR]

BlueMagitek wrote...

She manipulated everyone into getting her way

No she didn't. That's an erroneous belief that is backed up nowhere in the game and is refuted constantly.

[TEWR]

BlueMagitek wrote...

I would agree, but for the way he reacts when you call him out on it. From my memory, he seems resigned, and I believe he agrees that he crossed a line. But it has been a while.

Only if the Warden says it was monstrous, as he says "From a fellow Warden that means something".

We know little of just what those Wardens with him thought of it, and that says nothing about how he felt doing it. He says it was necessary. Doesn't mean he liked doing it.

BlueMagitek wrote...

But again, while he can unlock the power of the taint for all Wardens, can he sustain all Wardens for centuries or is it just something he can teach other mages? I suppose it doesn't matter.

More then likely something other Mages could do, unless he refines his research to a point where non-Mages can do similar things.

But it doesn't matter. He's taken very thorough notes during his entrapment in the Tower, and continues to do so if he's allowed to continue his work without restrictions -- and if the Architect's alive -- to the point where fellow Warden mages can pick up where he left off when the Taint finally claims him.

Which is, according to his letter in DAII, closer then ever. Whether he's actually succumbed to the Calling by the time of DAIII I don't know.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Warrior Craess wrote...


Umm if codex and lore isn't factual basis, in a game with no real history, Then what exactly is fact?  Game mechanic descriptions? The magic 8-ball? einey meeny miny moe? 

Hate to burst your bubble, but in a fictional world, what the authors write as lore and codex or history is indeed factual. So if the codex says something it's "fact" becuase that what the authors of the game/book/movie want you to know. (actually I don't hate bursting your bubble at all, it's rather fun)

granted what npc's say, which often contradicts each other, should be viewed as their personal opinion. But lore, codex, and history should be taken as factual, becuase that is the only way for the creators of the fiction to build history into their game. 

The Codex isn't meant to be unarguable fact in this game. The idea is that it's written by characters in said game, said characters not neccesarily having all the facts. The Codex itself routinely drives this home by having the fictional authors come right out and state that some of what they are supplying is conjecture. That said, it's still as close to accurate as we're likely to come, unless the PC encounters information that the Codex author doesn't have. (This has been known to happen.) Until that happens, just take the Codex and try to work with that.

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Blood Mage writings: "to learn blood magic, summon a demon! force it to teach you or else you'll be an abomination! have fun!".

The Scrolls of Banastor refer to learning mind control -- a certain aspect of blood magic -- as opposed to blood magic itself.

Lotion_Soronnar wrote...

Yes they do.

I said not all of which. I never said "none of them apply at all".

Let's see... what does Thedas have?

Lotion_Soronnar wrote...

It lacks instant communications

Wrong. David Gaider said the Circles have Sending Stones that allow quick communication between the Circles. And Tevinter, in its prime, unlocked the communication power of Eluvians. This could, in fact, be replicated through research.

Lotion_Soronnar wrote...

It lacks proper farming techniques

Lloyd would dispute that if you talk to him as a Dwarf, as he says a Dwarf built a piece of farming equipment that helped a great deal with his (Lloyd's) father's farmwork.

Lotion_Soronnar wrote...

Actually you did.

Actually, I didn't. Feel free to show me where though, since I never did.

But you're just being obtuse now.

Lotion_Soronnar wrote...

So what?

A group that preaches all are equal in the Maker's eyes and that people should help one another fails to help the people of two other races, for centuries on end?

Yeah, forgive me if I don't find it very endearing when a human organization fails to help anyone other then humans, yet preaches otherwise.

Hypocrites. I despise hypocrites. And when I am occasionally guilty of it, I get pissed off at myself for it.

Lotion_Soronnar wrote...

You speak as if it's the Chantry that gave a decree that elves have to live in squalor

The Chantry itself decreed that the lands of Thedas were to give shelter to the Elves, and the Elves were locked away in Alienages. That the land followed this speaks to the power the Chantry holds.

And the fact that the Chantry let Elves continue to live in such squalid areas filled with disease -- some being no bigger then the market of Denerim yet filled with tens of thousands of Elves -- speaks to how they have consistently never tried to help the Elves live better lives as Andrastians.

Lotion_Soronnar wrote...

Waht? Alistair and Wynnes oppinion are not jstu that? Oppinions?

Are you intentionally being obtuse? I brought up the codex that says the Chantry has made it a point for Andrastians to conflate the term apostate with maleficar, and Alistair and Wynne prove this statement true.

Is it an opinion? Yes! But it's an example of how the Chantry has indeed made it a point to have the two terms mold into one in the eyes of the populus.

Is it wrong to label her such? Absolutely. But does it prove the codex's statement on the Chantry's stance on the two terms to be factually correct? Indeed it does.

Can you?

I often have, to other posters -- pro-mage and pro-Templar alike.

They tend to bring up arguments grounded in logic, facts, and interesting analysis. I happen to think I've conceded a few arguments to Dave of Canada and EmperorSahlertz -- two pro-Templar/pro-Chantry players -- in fact. 

Your arguments tend to boil down to "LOL nope you're a ****ing idiot if you believe that". So it's not exactly conducive to having an intellectual discussion with you, if you so quickly resort to such tactics to win an argument.

I still don't know what you wanted to say.

I wasn't the one that said "cettle". I just pointed out how it's funny that you're berating another poster for mispelling a word when if I look over your posts, they are not grammatically correct -- ranging from a simple spelling error to actual sentence screw-ups.

So yeah... what was that about the pot calling the kettle black that you like to go on about? 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 octobre 2012 - 02:13 .

[TEWR]

I can argue that the Litany only exist for gampleay reasons at all.

Yeah, that'd be wrong. It's an element of the world of Thedas. You can't just write it off as some gameplay thing.

Wynne, Niall, and Owain acknowledge its existence.

[Shadow Fox]

KainD wrote...

I am pro mage freedom, but if there is no way to stop the circle from existing then I agree with LobselVith8, templars should be an organization that is not tied to the chantry in any way.

You do realize it was the Chantry that stepped in and stopped the proto templars from simply killing any mage they found right?

[BlueMagitek]

Warrior Craess wrote...

So Marenthari, who already sent me to the fade to free a mage from demons, is worried that I can't do it again? Merrill becomes a powerful mage by the end of the game, but she's no dreamer. So why should marenthari suddenly doubt Hawke?  Why not let Merrill take the risk, that she obviously wants to take, knowning Hawke is there to stop her if things go terribly wrong?  Instead of being all noble and self sacrificing (wait she's an apostate right so noble self sacrafising shouldn't be possible)? 

Merrill is about as upfront about the mirror as you can get. She never leads you to belief that she doesn't deal with demons. In fact you know about that right from the start. And while she's a bit nieve, she's fairly smart about distrusting demons. 

Your opinion that Merrill conned you is just that, nothing but an opinion. please stop trying to lay it off as fact. Personally I think your idea that merril wanted you to kill her old keeper and the clan is idiotic, but thats just my opinion and may not be factual at all. 

And even if what you said is true (it's not in my case, I understood what merril was doing from the beginning) how is her actions any worse than Isebella's?  With out Isebella stealing a book, the Qunari are never in Kirkwall, and the reagent would still be alive, and there would never have been a show done over who was in charge of Kirkwalll.

I don't believe you need to do that quest, so, you may not have been there at all?  And this is a Pride Demon, right?  And she positions it so that to ensure your loyalty, you need to do her "Ensure Keeper Dies" quest.  How terribly convenient. 

I never claimed Isabella was a good person.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

No she didn't. That's an erroneous belief that is backed up nowhere in the game and is refuted constantly.

Doesn't she go ahead and throw away the mirror unless you're best friends, after the Keeper was slain?  How convenient. 

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Only if the Warden says it was monstrous, as he says "From a fellow Warden that means something".

We
know little of just what those Wardens with him thought of it, and that
says nothing about how he felt doing it. He says it was necessary.
Doesn't mean he liked doing it.

More
then likely something other Mages could do, unless he refines his
research to a point where non-Mages can do similar things.

But it
doesn't matter. He's taken very thorough notes during his entrapment in
the Tower, and continues to do so if he's allowed to continue his work
without restrictions -- and if the Architect's alive -- to the point
where fellow Warden mages can pick up where he left off when the Taint
finally claims him.

Which is, according to his letter in DAII,
closer then ever. Whether he's actually succumbed to the Calling by the
time of DAIII I don't know.

Yes, because someone else can judge him.  He can toss away the thoughts of the serfs and nobility; they haven't taken the steps he has.  But another Warden?  Well, that's a different matter entirely.  He really should have gotten some sort of peer review.

That's unfortunate.  He was a bro.

[TEWR]

Doesn't she go ahead and throw away the mirror unless you're best friends, after the Keeper was slain? How convenient.

Yeah... that doesn't say anything about her "manipulating events and people" like you want to believe. She never wanted the Keeper to die -- in fact, she'll flat out tell you that as she's in tears, saying SHE should've been the one to die if someone had to.

The one is not related to the other. The Keeper's death was not something Merrill engineered. The clan's death because they attempted to murder Merrill and company was not something Merrill engineered.

Those were unknown things that Merrill did not expect to happen, nor want to happen.

I don't even know where you're getting that idea, because there's nothing in-game to support it.

[BlueMagitek]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Yeah... that doesn't say anything about her "manipulating events and people" like you want to believe. She never wanted the Keeper to die -- in fact, she'll flat out tell you that as she's in tears, saying SHE should've been the one to die if someone had to.

The one is not related to the other. The Keeper's death was not something Merrill engineered. The clan's death because they attempted to murder Merrill and company was not something Merrill engineered.

Those were unknown things that Merrill did not expect to happen, nor want to happen.

I don't even know where you're getting that idea, because there's nothing in-game to support it.

And yet she wasn't.  How terribly convenient.  I think you are underestimating her.  After all, she's very sneaky.

[Xilizhra]

And yet she wasn't. How terribly convenient. I think you are underestimating her. After all, she's very sneaky.

Please stop this line of questioning. It's making me extraordinarily angry IRL and I suspect you don't want to actually cause pain, hence I've decided to inform you.

[Xilizhra]

Filament wrote...

I was just kidding around.

I guessed as much. I was speaking to Magitek.

[Medhia Nox]

I wouldn't trust anyone stupid enough to think they can "deal" with demons.

"I have no idea what this thing is - what it's capable of - how it came to be - the nature of the realm it exists in - how it possesses others - or how some of them seem extraordinarily self-aware.... BUT, I believe I can "deal" with it."

Thank the mundane universe for not allowing some of you people to possess these fantastical concepts... cause this race would have been destroyed ten times over.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 16 octobre 2012 - 03:50 .

[SpEcIaLRyAn]

I would like to have consequences based on any class choice in DA3. Be it good or bad. Also I would like a character to mention at some point in the game, after I have fought tons and tons of people, how unstoppable I am. Towards the end of any RPG I feel a little powerful considering all the people wanting to kill me failed and I am still alive.

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

And yet she wasn't. How terribly convenient. I think you are underestimating her. After all, she's very sneaky.

Please stop this line of questioning. It's making me extraordinarily angry IRL and I suspect you don't want to actually cause pain, hence I've decided to inform you.

I'll admit that I'm starting to get angry myself. 

Though arguing with Lotion was sort of what started that. The Merrill thing is just exacerbating it.

Medhia Nox wrote...

"I have no idea what this thing is

j

She knows what it is. A spirit of the Fade. All Demons are spirits, just as all Spirits are spirits. This is stated in-game by the Dalish Mages, the Mages of the Circle, and out of the game by David Gaider himself.

- what it's capable of -

Oh she knows. It can subtly manipulate people, whisper to them based on proximity, and create illusions while it's trapped in a demonic Buddha statue and sundered from the Fade.

how it came to be

No one knows how it came to be sundered from the Fade and placed in that statue. That's hardly a strike against Merrill, as the Imperium wiped out the majority of what constituted ancient Elvhenan. You're not going to easily figure out how he got there. 

- the nature of the realm it exists in

She knows about the Fade. She was instructed on the Fade by Marethari after all.

- how it possesses others

Mages know that possessions happen either willingly with a demon or forcibly. Merrill knows this.

BlueMagitek wrote...

And yet she wasn't.

Wasn't what? Upset over the deaths of her clan and mother figure? The people that she's lived with her whole life, and though never got to interact with them much, still deeply cared for?

Bull****. She was upset. Trying to say she's some immoral sociopath is in no way an accurate description of her. In fact, it's trying to label her as something she's not. Much like one would try and label Teyrn Loghain Mac Tir as an "EVUL MAN WHO IS EVUL!!!"

By your logic she would've also plotted Anders' plan on the Chantry and Fenris being betrayed by his sister, because hey... they're also against her working on the Eluvian!

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 octobre 2012 - 04:07 .