2177 réponses à ce sujet

[Vit246]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I wouldn't trust anyone stupid enough to think they can "deal" with demons.

"I have no idea what this thing is - what it's capable of - how it came to be - the nature of the realm it exists in - how it possesses others - or how some of them seem extraordinarily self-aware.... BUT, I believe I can "deal" with it."

Thank the mundane universe for not allowing some of you people to possess these fantastical concepts... cause this race would have been destroyed ten times over.

The Warden can force a demon to give him a deal for free with no bad consequences.

Merrill "dealt" with a demon for years, learned blood magic out of it, and pretty much nothing else bad happens. But Marethari was the one foolish enough to think she could deal with the demon by personally releasing it out of its perfectly working prison and killing it herself.

And the Tevinter Imperium is still alive, having mastered demonology in a sense. It is what it is but Tevinter is still alive and powerful.

Demons are dangerous, but they're not that dangerous.

Modifié par Vit246, 16 octobre 2012 - 04:09 .

[Cody]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

And yet she wasn't.

Wasn't what? Upset over the deaths of her clan and mother figure? The people that she's lived with her whole life, and though never got to interact with them much, still deeply cared for?

Bull****. She was upset. Trying to say she's some immoral sociopath is in no way an accurate description of her. In fact, it's trying to label her as something she's not. Much like one would try and label Teyrn Loghain Mac Tir as an "EVUL MAN WHO IS EVUL!!!"

By your logic she would've also plotted Anders' plan on the Chantry and Fenris being betrayed by his sister, because hey... they're also against her working on the Eluvian!

Think he was replying to this specifically:

she'll flat out tell you that as she's in tears, saying SHE should've been the one to die if someone had to.

As in "yet she wasn't killed".

[TEWR]

CodyMelch wrote...

As in "yet she wasn't killed".

I still call bull**** on the whole "Merrill orchestrated the clan's death" schtick. Her not being killed because of Marethari's stupid sacrifice was not something Merrill engineered, planned for, foresaw, or even wanted.

In fact, Marethari's the reason the clan attacked Hawke and company. She filled the clan's head with slanderous lies about Merrill that led them to hate her, revile her, and irrationally fear her.

[Cody]

Indeed. I am beginning to think tek is just fooling around with the whole Merril thing.

[TEWR]

Yeah, I'm also wondering if he's being serious about believing that or if he's just screwing with Merrill fans.

And who better to screw with regarding Merrill then myself?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Warrior Craess wrote...
Hate to burst your bubble, but in a fictional world, what the authors write as lore and codex or history is indeed factual. So if the codex says something it's "fact" becuase that what the authors of the game/book/movie want you to know. (actually I don't hate bursting your bubble at all, it's rather fun)

granted what npc's say, which often contradicts each other, should be viewed as their personal opinion. But lore, codex, and history should be taken as factual, becuase that is the only way for the creators of the fiction to build history into their game.

When the creators themselves stress that codexes are written from specific Points of View (and "in character"), then codex entrys themselves are to be taken with a grain of salt.

[Vicious]

When the creators themselves stress that codexes are written from specific Points of View (and "in character"), then codex entrys themselves are to be taken with a grain of salt.

unless certain ones unlock an achievement. Then they are probably important.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
[quote]Lotion_Soronnar wrote...

It lacks instant communications[/quote]

Wrong. David Gaider said the Circles have Sending Stones that allow quick communication between the Circles. And Tevinter, in its prime, unlocked the communication power of Eluvians. This could, in fact, be replicated through research.[/quote]

Eluvians are lost artifacts.
Sending stoens? If it's only between Circels it's still very limited communication.


[quote]
[quote]Lotion_Soronnar wrote...
It lacks proper farming techniques[/quote]

Lloyd would dispute that if you talk to him as a Dwarf, as he says a Dwarf built a piece of farming equipment that helped a great deal with his (Lloyd's) father's farmwork.[/quote]

"A piece of farming equipment". How vauge. For all you know it could be a plow.
Face it, TheDas doesn't have the huge agricultural output of our modern world.


[quote]
A group that preaches all are equal in the Maker's eyes and that people should help one another fails to help the people of two other races, for centuries on end?

Yeah, forgive me if I don't find it very endearing when a human organization fails to help anyone other then humans, yet preaches otherwise.

Hypocrites. I despise hypocrites. And when I am occasionally guilty of it, I get pissed off at myself for it.[/quote]

Like I said - you can't help everyone. You dont' have the resoruces to help everyone.
And we did see the Chatnry help when it can (like Lothering...and there were elves there too)


[quote]
[quote]Lotion_Soronnar wrote...
You speak as if it's the Chantry that gave a decree that elves have to live in squalor[/quote]

The Chantry itself decreed that the lands of Thedas were to give shelter to the Elves, and the Elves were locked away in Alienages. That the land followed this speaks to the power the Chantry holds.[/quote]

Nope.
Elves living in Alianages is not a chantry decree.


[quote]
And the fact that the Chantry let Elves continue to live in such squalid areas filled with disease -- some being no bigger then the market of Denerim yet filled with tens of thousands of Elves -- speaks to how they have consistently never tried to help the Elves live better lives as Andrastians.[/quote]

It proves nothing other than your bias.
You see everything that happens as proof of Chatnry wrongdoing, without knowing the details OR the context.



[quote]
Is it wrong to label her such? Absolutely.[/quote]

Not really.



[quote]
Your arguments tend to boil down to "LOL nope you're a ****ing idiot if you believe that". So it's not exactly conducive to having an intellectual discussion with you, if you so quickly resort to such tactics to win an argument.[/quote]

I call an argument stupid when it is stupid.
And bt.w. - most arguments in these threads tend to boil down to exacty that, only the insult is generally subtler.
At least I don't try to hide behin a false mask unlike many others.

"Win" and argument. Hah. Like anyone really expects a victory here. There is no victory here.
Only two trenches that end up getting deeper and deeper.



[quote]
[quote]I still don't know what you wanted to say.[/quote]
I wasn't the one that said "cettle". I just pointed out how it's funny that you're berating another poster for mispelling a word when if I look over your posts, they are not grammatically correct -- ranging from a simple spelling error to actual sentence screw-ups.[/quote]

I'm not berating him from misspeling - I'm asking him to clarify.
Usually I can read the post with spelling errors and see what the other poster meant. In this case I don't.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...

And yet she wasn't. How terribly convenient. I think you are underestimating her. After all, she's very sneaky.

Please stop this line of questioning. It's making me extraordinarily angry IRL and I suspect you don't want to actually cause pain, hence I've decided to inform you.

If that's the case, why are you posting (or are you assumignthat your posts are not makign anyone else angry)?

Come to think of it, lets close this thread. This whole discussion does nothing but exactly that.

[dragonflight288]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Yeah, I'm also wondering if he's being serious about believing that or if he's just screwing with Merrill fans.

And who better to screw with regarding Merrill then myself?

Maybe me, were I on long enough to keep up with the arguments. Stupid job cleaning carpets and stupid classes and butt load of homework (continues to grumble.)

[TEWR]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...



Eluvians are lost artifacts.[/quote]

Hence why I said it could be replicated through research.

[quote]
Sending stoens? If it's only between Circels it's still very limited communication.[/quote]

At this point? Yes it is. But it's still instant communication that could be extended.


[quote]

"A piece of farming equipment". How vauge. For all you know it could be a plow.[/quote]

The reason I said "a piece of farming equipment" is because I can't quite recall just what it was, though I know it was stated in-game.

The underlying point though is that Dwarven engineering can improve Thedas' farming ability.

[quote]
Face it, TheDas doesn't have the huge agricultural output of our modern world.[/quote]

Sure, it might not be as agriculturally capable as we are today, but considering that Dwarven engineering improves Thedas' farming ability greatly I wouldn't compare it to Medieval Era farming ability.



[quote]

Like I said - you can't help everyone. You dont' have the resoruces to help everyone.
And we did see the Chatnry help when it can (like Lothering...and there were elves there too)[/quote]

I'm not asking them to help everyone. I'm asking them to help people of all races, as many as they can. If one Elf joined the Templars and made enough money for his family to go out and start their own farm in Ferelden, that'd endear the Chantry to me.

Would it be enough to be done? No, you can never do enough good I feel. That's true the world over. Poverty will always exist more then likely.

Would it be enough for me to believe they do legitimate good for the community at large? Certainly.


[quote]

Nope.
Elves living in Alianages is not a chantry decree.[/quote]

Yeah, you'll find that codex was penned by a Chantry priest.

So... it's biased.

Even so, I never even said the Alienage part was a Chantry decree. If you read my wording carefully, I said the Chantry decreed that all lands were to give shelter to the Elves in the walls of their cities.

That was all I claimed the Chantry expressly said.

I then said the Elves were put in the Alienages. My wording was clearly stating that it was a subsequent result of the Chantry decree. Whether the Chantry actually decreed that they be put in the worst parts of the city, I dunno. But considering how the codex was penned by a priest of the Chantry, it's biased. 

So for you to say "Nope, it surely wasn't" when you yourself admitted not a few posts ago that the codexes are biased would just be trying to warp which ones suit your argument and which ones don't.

Now if I find something that supports the codex's claim that the Chantry didn't use those words, then it's not biased. Say the diary of a noble that lived during the time of whatever Divine decreed it, that'll do. Saying something along the lines of...

"Divine Hortensia III* said that the Elves were to give refuge to the Elves. The Emperor of Orlais and we nobles assembled before him discussed the matter and though I opposed their decision to shelter the Elves in the worst part of the city, I was powerless to do anything about it when the rest agreed to it."

That'll work.

*Hortensia III is just a placeholder name, since I know that historically Thedas had four Divines under that name.




[quote]
It proves nothing other than your bias.
You see everything that happens as proof of Chatnry wrongdoing, without knowing the details OR the context.[/quote]

What is there to know? The Elves are locked in poor, decrepit sections of the city and have been since the Fall of the Dales. That was centuries ago.

Whatever their ancestors did doesn't justify the continued treatment they now receive as little better then second-class citizens.

Forbidden from worshipping their own religion, unable to live decent lives, wracked by sickness more then the humans are because of how ****ty their Alienages are, and add into that the risk of their own homes collapsing due to being disheveled hovels.... and I don't see what details or context there is to know.

Even when Elves do somehow earn enough to move out of the Alienage, the humans burn down their homes. Sometimes with the Elves still inside.



[quote]

Not really.[/quote]

According to the original terminology of maleficar as defined by one of the Divines, yes it is. That it's been warped to be conflated with "apostate" over the centuries after she defined it as "Blood Mage" means it is indeed wrong.

Morrigan's an apostate. She is not a maleficar.

Ignoring, of course, how I think the term needs to be redefined to suit its original Tevinter translation: "one who is depraved".


[quote]

I call an argument stupid when it is stupid.[/quote]

You'll do that and call people stupid as well. 

[quote]
And bt.w. - most arguments in these threads tend to boil down to exacty that, only the insult is generally subtler.
At least I don't try to hide behin a false mask unlike many others.[/quote]

I don't insult anyone unless they start to really get on my nerves by posting in a very... absurd fashion, like you did with your previous post that I quoted a few hours ago. Not so much a differing viewpoint that causes it, but just how they present their arguments.

Usually, I am in fact a very civil person to discuss something with.

Unless Merrill comes up. Tends to make my blood boil after a bit fairly easily. Though I tend to just leave a thread for a while at that point.

What always boils my blood to the point where I can't control myself is people assuming they know me when they really don't.

But I never insult anyone for simply having a differing viewpoint


[quote]I'm not berating him from misspeling - I'm asking him to clarify. 
Usually I can read the post with spelling errors and see what the other poster meant. In this case I don't.

[/quote]

I think you did, or at least could've. The context of the original quote was discussing your use of the phrase "pot calling the kettle black". When he spelled it as "cettle", the context didn't change even if it wasn't spelled correctly.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 octobre 2012 - 07:34 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
At this point? Yes it is. But it's still instant communication that could be extended.[/quote]

Maybe, maybe not. but we are talkign about TheDas as it is now, not how it might be in the far future.


[quote][quote]
"A piece of farming equipment". How vauge. For all you know it could be a plow.[/quote]

The reason I said "a piece of farming equipment" is because I can't quite recall just what it was, though I know it was stated in-game.

The underlying point though is that Dwarven engineering can improve Thedas' farming ability.[/quote]

Again, by how much?
And we are talking about the current state.

If TheDas can double it's agricultural output in 100 years, great.
But for now, it can't.
Food is a resource that isn't as abdundant as it is in our world.
Also, transporting perishable goods isn't as nearly fast or efficient either.




[quote][quote]
Like I said - you can't help everyone. You dont' have the resoruces to help everyone.
And we did see the Chatnry help when it can (like Lothering...and there were elves there too)[/quote]

I'm not asking them to help everyone. I'm asking them to help people of all races, as many as they can. If one Elf joined the Templars and made enough money for his family to go out and start their own farm in Ferelden, that'd endear the Chantry to me.[/quote]

And I'm asking you to prove that the Chantry isn't helping anyone or thatit isn't helping "enough".

You just said that it can't help everyone. So if it does help that hypopthetical elf of yours, that means that it's not helping a hypothetical human. How is that any "better"?
A hungry mouth is a hungry mouth.

Also, why would elves join the templar?
In the first game we didn't see a singel female templar. That doesn't mean that aren't any.

And while I doubt there are elven templars, I don't see it as proven, and I wonder why that would be a requirement for anything. There's plenty of other jobs elves can do for the Chantry.




[quote]
Even so, I never even said the Alienage part was a Chantry decree. If you read my wording carefully, I said the Chantry decreed that all lands were to give shelter to the Elves in the walls of their cities.

That was all I claimed the Chantry expressly said.

I then said the Elves were put in the Alienages. My wording was clearly stating that it was a subsequent result of the Chantry decree. Whether the Chantry actually decreed that they be put in the worst parts of the city, I dunno. But considering how the codex was penned by a priest of the Chantry, it's biased. [/quote]

So the local rulers putting all the elves in one district, or the elves themselvs deciding to stick togther (probably both) is now the fault of the Chantry?





[quote][quote]
It proves nothing other than your bias.
You see everything that happens as proof of Chatnry wrongdoing, without knowing the details OR the context.[/quote]

What is there to know? The Elves are locked in poor, decrepit sections of the city and have been since the Fall of the Dales. That was centuries ago.

Whatever their ancestors did doesn't justify the continued treatment they now receive as little better then second-class citizens.[/quote]

A lot apparently.


[quote]
Forbidden from worshipping their own religion, unable to live decent lives, wracked by sickness more then the humans are because of how ****ty their Alienages are, and add into that the risk of their own homes collapsing due to being disheveled hovels.... and I don't see what details or context there is to know.[/quote]

Ever seen a big town in India?
You'll find plenty of shacks, howels and poor people.
Yes, elves have it bad. But its not not unexpected nor is it all the Chantrys fault.


[quote]
Even when Elves do somehow earn enough to move out of the Alienage, the humans burn down their homes. Sometimes with the Elves still inside.[/quote]

Let me guss...Chantry's fault too?



[quote]
Morrigan's an apostate. She is not a maleficar.[/quote]

Shapeshifting is forbidden magic. She is a maleficar.





[quote]
Usually, I am in fact a very civil person to discuss something with.[/quote]

So am I.
But stupidity makes my blood boil.


[quote]
What always boils my blood to the point where I can't control myself is people assuming they know me when they really don't.[/quote]

What a conincidence. I feel the same way.


[quote]
But I never insult anyone for simply having a differing viewpoint[/quote]

Do you point out why his viewpoint or deductions are flawed?
When someone makes a deduction that defies logic and common sense, do you not point it out?
Couldnt' that be considered an insult? After all, if you say that somoenes deduction makes no sense, you are saiyng that he is senseless (in a way).
Everything negative can be considered an insult to someone. It helps to have a thick skin.

My goal isn't to insult people either.


[quote]
I think you did, or at least could've.[/quote]

Well I didn't.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 16 octobre 2012 - 09:00 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Wasn't what? Upset over the deaths of her clan and mother figure? The people that she's lived with her whole life, and though never got to interact with them much, still deeply cared for?

Bull****. She was upset. Trying to say she's some immoral sociopath is in no way an accurate description of her. In fact, it's trying to label her as something she's not. Much like one would try and label Teyrn Loghain Mac Tir as an "EVUL MAN WHO IS EVUL!!!"

By your logic she would've also plotted Anders' plan on the Chantry and Fenris being betrayed by his sister, because hey... they're also against her working on the Eluvian!

Actually, all interpretations are valid.

Could Merril been fakign everything? Yes. Someone people are really good actors and manipulators. It is POSSIBLE.
Is it likely? No.
I don't think Merril was manipulating Hawke, but the possiblity is there.

All we know about the character is what they tell us. As we can't read minds, we are hard pressed to really know people.

That is why people disagree so much on so many, many thing.
We see the same thing, but we interpret them differently, based on our previous preconceptions. They form a lens trough which all is filtered. This entire thread is a testamenet to this.

Take for example tempalrs tracking and killing an apostate.
A mage supporters looks at that and sees it as proof of zealous templars killing poor mages. In their mind, the templar was agressive, bigoted  and striked without provocation against an innocent mage.

A tempalr supporters looks at it and sees the templar commander regretfully striking down a dangerous threat, as the mage attempted to cast a spell or summon a demon or something.
Did the mage panick and start casting spells? Was the mage a maleficar? Maybe. Maybe not. But in a battle of life and death you strike first and ask questions later.

Either side can easily find support for their side even in such a simple scenario.

[Cultist]

Wrong. I never said "will" I said "most probably will". A reasonable reaction based on normal human behavior and goals of hte chatnry and historical precedences.
You are the one - who agaisnt all reason - thinks that the Chantry will ignore the most important archeological and spiritual find and probably the most important artifact on TheDas. And yet you have at no point given anything to support this other than "the Chatnry didn't help me in Loithering" (which in itself is an incredibly stupid argument to being with).

In that case "will" and "most probably will" is equal. and judjing that you labeled everyone who defiled the Ashes as stupid, idiots and morons for you the difference is non-existing. You couldn't prove that part about reasonable reaction and gone back to raging, insulting and berating everyone. You set me to ignore list when I asked you to give me an example of Chantry help, so, I guess you can again close your ears with your hands and singing "lalalalalal i can't hear you!" or give me an example)

Again, you equate survival of an entire kingdom with there not being an issue. Which is a compeltely flawed concept.

Entire kingdom with the opposite situation to "modern" Thedas - magocracy. Where mages are not placed in the prisons and are free to go enywhere.

Taken away to be TRAINED. The irony of your objection is hillarious.
B.t.w. Uldred was trained. Didn't help him, now did it?
You again assume that Connor being trained would guarantee he wouldn't be possesed or that it would influnce the outcome at all. Something that you cannot back up with anything. We seen plenty of trained mages fall.

The irony is that he would be trained in his cage. Magic-gifted were always trained, the difference only in where and how. Chantry put themselves in a situation where children will not see their parents. Mages fallen and will fall, and nothing can guarantee protection from possession...much like nothing can guarantee protection from commoin people going insane. yet training can reduce that chance.
And Ser otto Alrik was a trained templar and still tried to use his Tranquil Solution, Meredith was a leader of templars and still gone insane. By your logic we should condemn all templars for their actions. It is good to see you changed your mind after all!

No, it is apples and oranges because it is different.
The variables are vastly different.
Quite redicolously so in fact.

I'll fix it for you: "I can't counter that argument, therefore they must be different"

You say the same things, expect in not so many words.
I just happen to be more blunt about it.
What can I say. It's easy to make these statements when debating with you, cause you are so often so wrong.

Nope. It's just your excuses for your immature behaviour. Excuses for insulting, swearing at people here at forums, when you can't back your statements up or they present something, that contradicts your statements. Somehow it is completely possible for both pro-mage and pro-templar players to talk and debate normally on this forums without mutual insults and berating each other. And only you can't.

So? When a prison riots starts, pretty much everyone joins in. You wil lfind malcontents in every circle. Once a big enough group of mages rebel, many undecided will feel the pressure to join in with them. And some will try to stay out of it.
There's plenty of mages who ran and don't want anything to do with it. Again, all CIRCELS rebeled, not all mages

When malcontents are able to turn entire Circle into open rebellion and each Circle joins in, that means majority of Circle population supports them. Sure, lyalists and other Chantry bootlickers can stay away from it, but you can't start an uprising with just First Enchanters declaring it.

[Cultist]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Do you point out why his viewpoint or deductions are flawed?
When someone makes a deduction that defies logic and common sense, do you not point it out?
Couldnt' that be considered an insult? After all, if you say that somoenes deduction makes no sense, you are saiyng that he is senseless (in a way).
Everything negative can be considered an insult to someone. It helps to have a thick skin.

My goal isn't to insult people either.

Ohhh, I liked that one. mainly because you assume that your logic is True and Correct one. 
Surprise! "It's stupid!" is not enough, to counter an argument in a debate)
You just insult people, tell them their opinion are stupid, they know nothing and oly idiots has opinions, different from yours.
like a child, who can't answer and start crying, "No, you! You are wrong, not me!"

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Cultist wrote...

[quote]
Wrong. I never said "will" I said "most probably will". A reasonable reaction based on normal human behavior and goals of hte chatnry and historical precedences.
You are the one - who agaisnt all reason - thinks that the Chantry will ignore the most important archeological and spiritual find and probably the most important artifact on TheDas. And yet you have at no point given anything to support this other than "the Chatnry didn't help me in Loithering" (which in itself is an incredibly stupid argument to being with).[/quote]
In that case "will" and "most probably will" is equal. [/quote]

It's not.

[quote]
and judjing that you labeled everyone who defiled the Ashes as stupid, idiots and morons for you the difference is non-existing. You couldn't prove that part about reasonable reaction and gone back to raging, insulting and berating everyone. You set me to ignore list when I asked you to give me an example of Chantry help, so, I guess you can again close your ears with your hands and singing "lalalalalal i can't hear you!" or give me an example)[/quote]

I put you on my ignore list because I don't like you and you can't be reasoned with.

The Chantry help example is irrelevant (even tough there are two - you can get some help in Loithering and Redcliffe - DESPITE being a wanted man) because it doesn't prove the Cahtnry wont' help you in the future when you do an amazingly important thing for them.

And I called the act of defiling he ashes stupid for a Warden that takes his job seriously. Because it is.




[quote][quote]
Again, you equate survival of an entire kingdom with there not being an issue. Which is a compeltely flawed concept.[/quote]
Entire kingdom with the opposite situation to "modern" Thedas - magocracy. Where mages are not placed in the prisons and are free to go enywhere.[/quote]

They aren' t actually.
Mages in general are not free in Tevinter...only the magisters are


[quote][quote]
Taken away to be TRAINED. The irony of your objection is hillarious.
B.t.w. Uldred was trained. Didn't help him, now did it?
You again assume that Connor being trained would guarantee he wouldn't be possesed or that it would influnce the outcome at all. Something that you cannot back up with anything. We seen plenty of trained mages fall.[/quote]

The irony is that he would be trained in his cage. Magic-gifted were always trained, the difference only in where and how. Chantry put themselves in a situation where children will not see their parents. Mages fallen and will fall, and nothing can guarantee protection from possession...much like nothing can guarantee protection from commoin people going insane. yet training can reduce that chance.[/quote]

Do you have a point? Nope, because this doesn't refute what I said at all.

[quote]
And Ser otto Alrik was a trained templar and still tried to use his Tranquil Solution, Meredith was a leader of templars and still gone insane. By your logic we should condemn all templars for their actions. It is good to see you changed your mind after all! [/quote]

No. Reductio Ad Absurdum does not apply. Sorry.
Alriks request was denied and Meredith went insane because of the artifact.

Mages and templars are very, very different.



[quote][quote]
No, it is apples and oranges because it is different.
The variables are vastly different.
Quite redicolously so in fact.[/quote]
I'll fix it for you: "I can't counter that argument, therefore they must be different"[/quote]

Must be nice to have blinders on and not worry about anything on the sides, no?





[quote]
Nope. It's just your excuses for your immature behaviour. Excuses for insulting, swearing at people here at forums, when you can't back your statements up or they present something, that contradicts your statements. t. [/quote]

I have backed up my statements each and every time.
You not wanting to accept that is your problem, not mine.



[quote]
When malcontents are able to turn entire Circle into open rebellion and each Circle joins in, that means majority of Circle population supports them. Sure, lyalists and other Chantry bootlickers can stay away from it, but you can't start an uprising with just First Enchanters declaring it.
[/quote]

You'd be surprised how easy it is to rile people up.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Cultist wrote...
Ohhh, I liked that one. mainly because you assume that your logic is True and Correct one. 
Surprise! "It's stupid!" is not enough, to counter an argument in a debate)
You just insult people, tell them their opinion are stupid, they know nothing and oly idiots has opinions, different from yours.
like a child, who can't answer and start crying, "No, you! You are wrong, not me!"

It's stupid is not a coutner in itself - it's an observation.
The explanation of why it is stupid is usually what comes after that.

And like a child, you can't stop harping on it and crying to mommy how I'm a bad man.
I guess lacking any arguments you must resort to character assisination and flinging mud, in an effort to undermine the oppositions position.

Too bad for you that no matter how horrible you think I am, it does nothing to make your arguments look better.
I could be the second coming of Hitler, but my argumetns still stand.
A pitty yours don't.

[BlueMagitek]

Vit246 wrote...

The Warden can force a demon to give him a deal for free with no bad consequences.

And the Tevinter Imperium is still alive, having mastered demonology in a sense. It is what it is but Tevinter is still alive and powerful.

Demons are dangerous, but they're not that dangerous.

That we know of.  Connor himself was already damaged to an extent, so I guess no big deal there.  It also requires a decent cunning (if I remember correctly).  

Yes, but Tevinter has a host of problems on its own.  The entire Magister thing and slavery to be used as blood cattle.  Of course, they do hold off the Qunari horde, so props.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

And yet she wasn't.

Wasn't
what? Upset over the deaths of her clan and mother figure? The people
that she's lived with her whole life, and though never got to interact
with them much, still deeply cared for?

Bull****. She was upset.
Trying to say she's some immoral sociopath is in no way an accurate
description of her. In fact, it's trying to label her as something she's
not. Much like one would try and label Teyrn Loghain Mac Tir as an
"EVUL MAN WHO IS EVUL!!!"

By your logic she would've also plotted
Anders' plan on the Chantry and Fenris being betrayed by his sister,
because hey... they're also against her working on the Eluvian!

Well, firstly, I don't recall Buddha existing in Dragon Age.  So I'm not sure why there's a demon stuck in a statue of him. 

Hey now, hold your horses, despite their general lack of visibility in Dragon Age.  We aren't talking about the Hero Loghain. 

Hmm.  You may be right about that.  I don't see how causing pain for others not even related to her situation would aid her, but I'm sure we can find a connection.  Actually, you're right.  Causing strife would be an even better situation for a blood mage to exert control; people can act unreasonably under stress, which would cause any odd blood magic mind control related actions would come off with much less suspicion.  Well played, Redux.  

CodyMelch wrote...

Indeed. I am beginning to think tek is just fooling around with the whole Merril thing.

Heaven forbid someone offer an alternate character interpretation.  Especially after Anders.

[Xilizhra]

Heaven forbid someone offer an alternate character interpretation. Especially after Anders.

I repeat:

Please stop this line of questioning. It's making me extraordinarily angry IRL and I suspect you don't want to actually cause pain, hence I've decided to inform you.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Oh...got to pepare alternate character interpretations now! Lots of them.

Interesting how I never saw you jump in defense of Leliana in her thread when Alternate Character Interpretations started showing up.

[Xilizhra]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Oh...got to pepare alternate character interpretations now! Lots of them.

Interesting how I never saw you jump in defense of Leliana in her thread when Alternate Character Interpretations started showing up.

Only people in possession of certain functions that you lack will actually anger me. You are irrelevant.
In any case, I'm basically on Leliana's side.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...
Only people in possession of certain functions that you lack will actually anger me. You are irrelevant.

:lol:
Good one.

In any case, I'm basically on Leliana's side.

Glad we can agree on something.

[Cultist]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
It's not.

Oh it is, it is.

I put you on my ignore list because I don't like you and you can't be reasoned with.

The Chantry help example is irrelevant (even tough there are two - you can get some help in Loithering and Redcliffe - DESPITE being a wanted man) because it doesn't prove the Cahtnry wont' help you in the future when you do an amazingly important thing for them.

And I called the act of defiling he ashes stupid for a Warden that takes his job seriously. Because it is.

Oh, you know that we discussed their help at the moment Warden made a decision. But you choose to ignore facts that doesn't suit you, like you ignored them before in out previous discussion.
Also, remind me, please, how exactly Chantry helped Warden in Lothering and Redcliffe? With proof this time, not your usual fanfiction.

They aren' t actually.
Mages in general are not free in Tevinter...only the magisters are

Mages are controlled by other mages.They are watched by others, but to see if they may pose them a competition, not because they are mages Day and night compared to templar slavery.

Do you have a point? Nope, because this doesn't refute what I said at all.

You said Connor should've been taken to be trained. Taken from parents. And thanks to Chantry, his mother decided to risk training of Loghain's mage, but keep her son. if people turn to stealing because accoridng to laws they have to give 80% of their income, then is is laws' fault.

Alriks request was denied and Meredith went insane because of the artifact.

Mages and templars are very, very different.

The fact that request was denied and Meredith madness does not disprove that Templars act in the same manner as Uldred. And of course you will call them different, because otherwise it shatters your imaginary, albeit alternative, Dragon Age setting universe.

Must be nice to have blinders on and not worry about anything on the sides, no?

You deny anything that disproves your theories, not even trying to analyze if that could be true. I am amused you learned to made a post without "Pot and Kettle" quote. that's a sign of progress, my friend.

I have backed up my statements each and every time.
You not wanting to accept that is your problem, not mine.

Sorry, but your fanfiction could not be concidered as a proof. And each time someone presented you with somthing, that contradicted with your theories, you turned to old routine of: "What you say is stupid, false and y are an idiot!"

You'd be surprised how easy it is to rile people up.

It is even easier, if it is slaves that rise against their enslavers. And the very fact that everything templars and Chantry built for thousand years collapsed in a moment proves that it was rotten to the core.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]BlueMagitek wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't see the Chantry controlled Circles as a solution; I see them as the problem.

This has been addressed in the past; people don't disagree with mages being trained, but with mages being placed under the rule of an anti-mage religious organization. It's not the solution. As for an alternative, I think that a law enforcement group consisting of mages and skilled people trained in the tactics used by the templars would be much better, but without the religious teachings that make them think they have dominion over mages by divine right.

Which means Tevinter is the only place in Thedas an elf can rise in their social status.

Which doesn't change what the Dales was like, before the war with Orlais & the Chantry. A nation where mages were not controlled by the templars.

Bethany is an Andrastian, and she addresses that she believed mages were supposed to be locked up according to her faith. It's why Merrill's society is so alien to her.

Since Aldenon strongly opposed slavery, and wanted to establish a kingdom of "free men," I'm assuming that's a far-fetched assumption. According to the codex:

Due to the Chantry preaching hatred and intolerance about mages and magic. 'Protecting them' from the very society they taught to hate them. There's a reason people are opposed to the Chantry. [/quote]

That is unfortunate, then.  

Viable alternative.  It'll be a cold day in the Fade when any Andrastian nation gives up their mages to go off to a place where you may have unbiased guardian.  It just isn't going to happen.  They're a strong military power and no sane ruler is going to just let them walk off.

Or the Qunari controlled lands. [/quote]

There is a continential war going on, from the looks of things. Perhaps the status quo will change if mages can maintain their autonomy. Viable depends on what transpires from the aftermath of the war between the mages and the templars.

Who knows how society will change as a result of the Circles of Magi breaking free from the Chantry and the Order of Templars? If the Inquisitor can be a mage, why not side with the mages and fight for their autonomy? Why not use blood magic, avoiding the weakness of templars being able to nullify your abilities? Change how society has conducted itself for almost a millennia by fighting for your people. That's how I view the situation; I'm sure you have your own view on the matter.

While I had issues with Dragon Age II, I liked how Anders suggested that a pro-mage, apostate Hawke should be a leader to the mages; how Hawke can say that he seeks to overthrow the templars; Anders even says (if spared) that apostate Hawke is the leader who the mages have been waiting centuries for. I like the idea of my apostate Hawke fighting for the autonomy of the mages.

[quote]BlueMagitek wrote...

Yes, and it doesn't exist anymore.  I don't see where you're going with this. [/quote]

The Dales was a nation where mages and non-mages lived together, where mages weren't controlled by the templars. It didn't fall because of magic, it fell because of a war with Orlais and the Chantry, and the start of the war varies depending on whether you believe the Orlesian version, or the Dalish version.

[quote]BlueMagitek wrote...

One aspect of her faith.  There exist alternative interpretation of Andrastian scripture.  And once again, she's going to here that quite a lot, given that she's been on the run. [/quote]

Keili and Meredith both make the same comments about mages being "cursed" so I don't think it's limited to Bethany.

[quote]BlueMagitek wrote...

That's quite the assumption to make.  Especially when he didn't really specify elves or dwarves. Assume what you want, but if you don't have specifics, it just defaults to humans. [/quote]

This reminds me of when people try to claim there isn't any atheist dialogue in Origins or Awakening because the protagonist doesn't say that he doesn't believe in any gods or higher power. If Aldenon said he wanted to create a kingdom where people would be treated equally, then I don't see why you infer that he would subjugate elves or dwarves, especially when he condemns slavery.

[quote]BlueMagitek wrote...

I twas more than the Chantry; look back, other posts explain that the mages were being hunted down and that the Circle system was a compromise.  To stop people from killing each other. [/quote]

I don't see it as a compromise when the Chantry holds all the power.

[quote]BlueMagitek wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

No, it's the grown men and women who tried to murder Hawke and Merrill who are at fault.

As opposed to the myraid of problems that transpire as a result of the Chantry controlled Circles, from suicide to rebellions to abominations? The simple fact is that I don't share your view on the Chantry controlled Circles; Lotion and you think they are the solution, but I think it's part of the problem. Kain has a point; we aren't going to agree on this.

You're addressing the difference between a Libertarian and a Loyalist. It's not that much of a stretch for the protagonist to have one viewpoint or the other.

Ultimately, it comes down to the fact that I think blood magic is a valid option; I assume you disagree. We aren't going to reach a consensus on this.[/quote]

Because of Merrill's actions. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie] [/quote]

It doesn't work that way. When grown adults attempt to murder people in cold blood, it isn't the fault of the victims who were nearly murdered. Hawke and Merrill defended themselves from attempted murder.

[quote]BlueMagitek wrote...

No system is perfect, and a different system may be for the best.  But it isn't going to happen without a major change.  The Qunari and Tevinter will need to be dealt with first, then the culture will need to change.  Nations will need to be willing to put their magical weapons away.  There's too much that need to be changed.  Abominations also happen to Dalish. [/quote]

There is a change: the mage revolution.

[quote]BlueMagitek wrote...

Yes, the PC can have a number of views on the subject.  Which is why they can't really be counted. [/quote]

Sure they can. Grey Warden mages can use blood magic, individuals can be atheists, people can hold a variety of views about the society they live in. It isn't as though the personality traits of The Warden or Hawke are limited to the protagonist alone.

[quote]BlueMagitek wrote...

Blood Magic is much too dangerous, especially when there isn't a way to fight against it.[/quote]

I don't agree. If I'm a mage, and blood magic is the only thing that I can use to defeat the templars who will try to kill me or make me tranquil, then I'm going to use it.

[Cultist]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
It's stupid is not a coutner in itself - it's an observation.
The explanation of why it is stupid is usually what comes after that.

And like a child, you can't stop harping on it and crying to mommy how I'm a bad man.
I guess lacking any arguments you must resort to character assisination and flinging mud, in an effort to undermine the oppositions position.

Too bad for you that no matter how horrible you think I am, it does nothing to make your arguments look better.
I could be the second coming of Hitler, but my argumetns still stand.
A pitty yours don't.

but you used it exactly like both counter and explanation, because you never presented one.

By the ay, you are gravely mistaken, I never concidered you a bad man, immature and impolite, maybe, but not bad - that is beyond me to judge.
You are still upset we started that theme about killing Leliana? Well, it's not my fault you can't find a lore-backed response and thus turn to imaginary ones.
Also I've yet to see you show us a proof other than "Everrything you say is stupid, and you are an idiot!"
But I usually hope that people can change for the better, and maybe someday you may hold a conversation without insulting people, who disagree with you)