2177 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

Cultist wrote...
Oh it is, it is.

Is not. Is too. Is not. Is too. Is not. Is too, etc, etc. etc....

The Chantry help example is irrelevant (even tough there are two - you can get some help in Loithering and Redcliffe - DESPITE being a wanted man) because it doesn't prove the Cahtnry wont' help you in the future when you do an amazingly important thing for them.

And I called the act of defiling he ashes stupid for a Warden that takes his job seriously. Because it is.

Oh, you know that we discussed their help at the moment Warden made a decision. But you choose to ignore facts that doesn't suit you, like you ignored them before in out previous discussion.
Also, remind me, please, how exactly Chantry helped Warden in Lothering and Redcliffe? With proof this time, not your usual fanfiction.

I ignored nothing. You try to make connections that don't exist.
Even tough the warden was a fugutive and king-slayer, and the chantry in Loithering was in dire straits with all the refugees, they still gave you a few supplies.
Redcliffe chantry also houses the needy and the reverend mother will help you there with the knights if you convince her it's for the greater good.

The point is that both of those evetns have no bearing on the Ashes decision. The Loithering chantry does not THE Chantry make. The reverend mother there is NOT the Divine.
The Ahses AR the most importnat find in TheDas history and hte msot important find for the Chantry.

And yet you continue to argue that al lthe faithfull and the divne will simply ignore it? That they will not offer help to the hero of the faith that passed andrastes trails? Based on what?
On your oppinion that the reverend mother in Loithering did help you "enough"??

That entire line of resoning is redicolous.
You might as well argue that the Catholic Church will burn me at the stake if I found the cross of Chirst, based soley on the fact that an overworked priest in some village wasn't kissing my ass.

Now do you understand why I don't want to have anything with you? (no you don't)

Even by just entertaining this line of un-reasoning I feel as my IQ is dropping rapidly.

They aren' t actually.
Mages in general are not free in Tevinter...only the magisters are

Mages are controlled by other mages.They are watched by others, but to see if they may pose them a competition, not because they are mages Day and night compared to templar slavery.

Again proof.
They have Circles, mages are also locked in there, watched by tevinter templars.

You said Connor should've been taken to be trained. Taken from parents. And thanks to Chantry, his mother decided to risk training of Loghain's mage, but keep her son. if people turn to stealing because accoridng to laws they have to give 80% of their income, then is is laws' fault.

The law is reasonable in the case od Connor. Isolde was a fool.
Aaaaand we are agaisn going way, waaaaay off the tangent.

Alriks request was denied and Meredith went insane because of the artifact.
Mages and templars are very, very different.

The fact that request was denied and Meredith madness does not disprove that Templars act in the same manner as Uldred. And of course you will call them different, because otherwise it shatters your imaginary, albeit alternative, Dragon Age setting universe.

Mages and tempalrs are different. Period.
I will not debate this fact with you.
If you cannot accept the obvious because you cannto stand it, that is your problem.

Sorry, but your fanfiction could not be concidered as a proof. And each time someone presented you with somthing, that contradicted with your theories, you turned to old routine of: "What you say is stupid, false and y are an idiot!"

And your fanfiction is considered proof?
Don't make me laugh. You couldn't debate your way out of a paper bag.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Cultist wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
It's stupid is not a coutner in itself - it's an observation.
The explanation of why it is stupid is usually what comes after that.

And like a child, you can't stop harping on it and crying to mommy how I'm a bad man.
I guess lacking any arguments you must resort to character assisination and flinging mud, in an effort to undermine the oppositions position.

Too bad for you that no matter how horrible you think I am, it does nothing to make your arguments look better.
I could be the second coming of Hitler, but my argumetns still stand.
A pitty yours don't.

but you used it exactly like both counter and explanation, because you never presented one.

Oh I do, but you never bother to read or understand.
And you never acknowledge anything that doesn't fit your worldview.

You call everything I write fanfiction.

Fine then - why do you expect then for me to acknowledge anything you write?
I respond in kind.

But I usually hope that people can change for the better, and maybe someday you may hold a conversation without insulting people, who disagree with you)

The feeling is mutual.
I truly hope one day you will see reason.

[Cody]

BlueMagitek wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

Indeed. I am beginning to think tek is just fooling around with the whole Merril thing.

Heaven forbid someone offer an alternate character interpretation.  Especially after Anders.

No no no. I mean by the way you were doing it. It seemed to be short qwuips about the subject with some strawman arguements to support it. I don't mind alternate character interperations. I love them actually! Makes characters more interesting. I just prefer it if the arguments and reasoning for them had more...substance.

[BlueMagitek]

CodyMelch wrote...

No no no. I mean by the way you were doing it. It seemed to be short qwuips about the subject with some strawman arguements to support it. I don't mind alternate character interperations. I love them actually! Makes characters more interesting. I just prefer it if the arguments and reasoning for them had more...substance.

Why, this is a place for blood magic, not Merrill, however often the two are tied together. It is a time honored tradition of Dragon Age for your female companions to have their own shadowy, ulterior motives and pasts. Just because she's an elf doesn't mean she's immune, eh? And then we have the results. Oh my, the results.

Now, in what will be a vain attempt to steer the topic back on track, blood magic, however we may see it, is quite dangerous and is despicable to most of Thedas (that we know of). Becoming a blood mage should have consequences that reflect that.

Edit:

Fixed smilie, wasn't showing up correctly.

Modifié par BlueMagitek, 16 octobre 2012 - 07:04 .

[Auintus]

Consequences based on character reactions, but I don't think it should break the game, everybody hates you and so on. I'd like to play a blood mage that isn't railroaded into blood sacrifices and demonic negotiations(although that could be fun).

Modifié par Auintus, 16 octobre 2012 - 07:08 .

[BlueMagitek]

Auintus wrote...

Consequences based on character reactions, but I don't think it should break the game, everybody hates you and so on. I'd like to play a blood mage that isn't railroaded into blood sacrifices and demonic negotiations(although that could be fun).

Well, not everyone.  A Tevinter Mage probably wouldn't care.  But everyone should be, at the very least, wary of you.  Especially if there is an option to use blood magic to influence the minds of others.  

Assuming they know, of course.  I'm sure random NPCs will treat you the same before you start cutting your wrists.

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Well, not everyone.  A Tevinter Mage probably wouldn't care.  But everyone should be, at the very least, wary of you. Especially if there is an option to use blood magic to influence the minds of others.

Mages are already feared and hated by Andrastians. Mother Hannah has to assure the Amell Warden that he won't be the target of a lynch mob when he's in Redcliffe, and this kind of treatment happens to mages often (according to Wynne). While I'm sure reactions will be negative towards a known blood mage, simply being a mage is going to make the protagonist (and even his mage companions) the target of violence and fear among most Andrastians.

BlueMagitek wrote...

Assuming they know, of course.  I'm sure random NPCs will treat you the same before you start cutting your wrists.

Depending on whether they know the protagonist is a mage or not, I'm certain the reactions will vary. Hopefully, it won't be handled like it was in Dragon Age II, with the mage protagonist being an 'invisible mage.'

[Auintus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Depending on whether they know the protagonist is a mage or not, I'm certain the reactions will vary. Hopefully, it won't be handled like it was in Dragon Age II, with the mage protagonist being an 'invisible mage.'

On that note, I'm actually hoping for an arcane warrior/battlemage spec that can avoid being recognized a mage to a degree.

[BlueMagitek]

^Actually, just being allowed to wear, like, leather armor and carry around a dagger would/should throw off suspicion. Switch to a staff in combat if you need to. ~_^

[Todd23]

Auintus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Depending on whether they know the protagonist is a mage or not, I'm certain the reactions will vary. Hopefully, it won't be handled like it was in Dragon Age II, with the mage protagonist being an 'invisible mage.'

On that note, I'm actually hoping for an arcane warrior/battlemage spec that can avoid being recognized a mage to a degree.

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQj3uue4d_lCnP4jLGziPKpTIxPDCr9VGpI-kMaOCNWh8BQ6pZAFfCNO7kHtQ

Modifié par Todd23, 17 octobre 2012 - 07:25 .

[Auintus]

Todd23 wrote...

Auintus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Depending on whether they know the protagonist is a mage or not, I'm certain the reactions will vary. Hopefully, it won't be handled like it was in Dragon Age II, with the mage protagonist being an 'invisible mage.'

On that note, I'm actually hoping for an arcane warrior/battlemage spec that can avoid being recognized a mage to a degree.

I don't think the pic worked.

[TEWR]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Maybe, maybe not. but we are talkign about TheDas as it is now, not how it might be in the far future.[/quote]

Might not be so far if it's addressed in DAIII. 

And it's still instant communication. Meaning it could've been used in any of the centuries that happened prior to the Dragon Age. Whether it was or wasn't, I don't know. But based on the continued state of the Elves and Dwarves, I'd say that it wasn't

I'd say that saying the Chantry couldn't help people because they had no means of instant communication is false. It may have been limited, but all of the Circles have them. And the Circles exist all over Thedas.

In essence, let's propose a theoretical scenario. The Divine asks the Circle of Montsimmard to let the Circle of Ferelden know that they have been granted the ability to go out into the countryside -- supervised by Templar legions -- and help people with various things their magic could work towards. And that they should also send word towards the Circle of Rivain that they too can do that.

And if you eliminate the Mages helping people scenario, the Divine could've easily asked the Circle of Montsimmard to send word to the Circle of Ferelden saying that by her orders, the King and Queen of Ferelden were to begin helping Elves in whatever ways they were able -- from a few Elves getting jobs to joining the military like they did under Loghain's command as the Night Elves.

So yes, they could've done these things.  It was completely possible. So I can't accept any "The Chantry couldn't help them due to the lack of this" or "It's limited, and thus not usable at all" because that'd be false.


[quote]

Again, by how much?
And we are talking about the current state.[/quote]

We don't know how often Dwarven engineering has been used in the centuries prior. But given how Lloyd says that this piece of farming equipment served his father for years and years and years -- longer then a human-made one ever had -- and that Dwarven surface smiths actually have an established guild of Merchants and often sell their wares, I'd say there's a good -- though admittedly still unknown -- chance there are more and more Dwarven-made agricultural pieces of equipment that improve the output. 



[quote]
Food is a resource that isn't as abdundant as it is in our world.
Also, transporting perishable goods isn't as nearly fast or efficient either.[/quote]

That last one is a fair point, though for the record I'm not claiming Thedas has as much food as our modern day world.

Factoring in the Blight's effect on the land and Dwarven engineering, I'd say it's largely dependant on what nation you're in. It could range from the Medieval to the Colonial types of agriculture.

But I wouldn't say Thedas is largely the former like you did. 

Theoretically, perhaps enchantments or magic -- specifically ice-related ones -- could help keep food fresh.






[quote]

And I'm asking you to prove that the Chantry isn't helping anyone or thatit isn't helping "enough".[/quote]

I never said it wasn't helping anyone. I've said numerous times that they help only humans. And I've seen evidence to support that in-game.

The Chantry of Denerim never goes to help the Elves, and the only priest that does go there only does so to marry the Elves.

That's not helping the Elves live better lives from an economic standpoint. From a social standpoint, maybe. But you don't really need a priest to help you live better socially amongst your own kindred brothers and sisters when all of you have done so quite easily prior to that.



[quote]You just said that it can't help everyone. So if it does help that hypopthetical elf of yours, that means that it's not helping a hypothetical human. How is that any "better"?
A hungry mouth is a hungry mouth.[/quote]

I'd argue that the Elves are the ones who need it more. Humans are more easily hired by people then the Elves, because there isn't as much of a social divide/stigma from humans to other humans. That human who wasn't helped might end up getting hired by someone the next day, whereas the Elf would be lucky if he got that a week later.

It's better though in the sense that if the Chantry did it then the Chantry wouldn't be focusing on one group, recognizing that they must indeed help people of all races.

So from a social standpoint and a practical one, I'd say that if the Chantry devotes its attention to all races as opposed to just one, it will be better for Thedas. Never mind the potential for nobles to see this and follow suit -- leading by example, after all.

Sebastian himself admits that if the Elves are willing to go to the Qun then stay Andrastians, then the Chantry is failing them.



[quote]Also, why would elves join the templar?[/quote]

Why wouldn't they?

[quote]
In the first game we didn't see a singel female templar. That doesn't mean that aren't any.[/quote]

I'd say that if in any media that shows Templars we haven't seen any Elven Templars or even heard of them, then... well... there aren't any.

DAO, DAII, Asunder, the comics where Gregoir is in, etc.



[quote]And while I doubt there are elven templars, I don't see it as proven, and I wonder why that would be a requirement for anything. There's plenty of other jobs elves can do for the Chantry.[/quote]

It was merely an example, but Templars do receive pay. Keran himself gets paid for being a Templar Recruit, and upon becoming a full Templar he would receive a pay increase.






[quote]

So the local rulers putting all the elves in one district, or the elves themselvs deciding to stick togther (probably both) is now the fault of the Chantry?[/quote]

I never said that.

I could say that because they weren't specific, it's partially their fault. But I won't.

What is their fault is that they've allowed it to remain the same and continue for centuries and centuries.





[quote]

Ever seen a big town in India?
You'll find plenty of shacks, howels and poor people.
Yes, elves have it bad. But its not not unexpected nor is it all the Chantrys fault.[/quote]

But you admit the Chantry does bear blame. Your use of "nor is it all" admits that.

I'm not blaming the Chantry for everything. The nobles like Vaughan certainly are at fault as well. But the Chantry does bear a great share of the blame in my mind.


[quote]

Let me guss...Chantry's fault too?[/quote]

More so the fault of the people who do it, but I'd say that the Chantry isn't entirely blameless there either. They weren't the hand that cast the torch, but I'd say that their lack of attempting to create a more even standing between the two races for centuries contributed to why it happened.





[quote]

Shapeshifting is forbidden magic. She is a maleficar.[/quote]

A maleficar as defined by the Divine who examined the Chant of Light talking about it is simply a blood mage.

It may be forbidden magic, but it doesn't constitute being a maleficar.






[quote]

Do you point out why his viewpoint or deductions are flawed?
When someone makes a deduction that defies logic and common sense, do you not point it out?[/quote]

I tend to say "I disagree" or "See, what about these?" as opposed to "That makes no sense". Doesn't mean I never say those things -- I'm sure I have before -- but I tend to use different phrasing.



[quote]

Well I didn't.

[/quote]

Fair enough.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Might not be so far if it's addressed in DAIII. [/quote]

Irrelevant, as it is isn't now, so it has no bearing on the argument.

[quote]
And it's still instant communication. Meaning it could've been used in any of the centuries that happened prior to the Dragon Age. Whether it was or wasn't, I don't know. But based on the continued state of the Elves and Dwarves, I'd say that it wasn't

I'd say that saying the Chantry couldn't help people because they had no means of instant communication is false. It may have been limited, but all of the Circles have them. And the Circles exist all over Thedas.[/quote]

One Circle in each country. The countries are big. It may take week jsut for a message to go from a circle to a town/village. And you don't know what limitations there are for the stones. I doubt they are used to chit-chat and are reserved only for important and official cirlce buisness.


[quote]
In essence, let's propose a theoretical scenario. The Divine asks the Circle of Montsimmard to let the Circle of Ferelden know that they have been granted the ability to go out into the countryside -- supervised by Templar legions -- and help people with various things their magic could work towards. And that they should also send word towards the Circle of Rivain that they too can do that.

And if you eliminate the Mages helping people scenario, the Divine could've easily asked the Circle of Montsimmard to send word to the Circle of Ferelden saying that by her orders, the King and Queen of Ferelden were to begin helping Elves in whatever ways they were able -- from a few Elves getting jobs to joining the military like they did under Loghain's command as the Night Elves.

So yes, they could've done these things.  It was completely possible. So I can't accept any "The Chantry couldn't help them due to the lack of this" or "It's limited, and thus not usable at all" because that'd be false.[/quote]

Sending mages to run around free kinda defeats the purpose of the Cirlce, no?
You also assume the Chantry does nothing to help the people and doesnt' allow mages to help. Which is not something you can prove.
If anything, mages producing healing potions helps people.

And to properly suprevise magtes outside, you'd need a contingent of templars for every mage.




[quote]
[quote]You just said that it can't help everyone. So if it does help that hypopthetical elf of yours, that means that it's not helping a hypothetical human. How is that any "better"?
A hungry mouth is a hungry mouth.[/quote]

I'd argue that the Elves are the ones who need it more. Humans are more easily hired by people then the Elves, because there isn't as much of a social divide/stigma from humans to other humans. That human who wasn't helped might end up getting hired by someone the next day, whereas the Elf would be lucky if he got that a week later.[/quote]

It's still a hungy mouth. You're looking at it group-wise and not individually.
Why would an elven beggar need more help than a human beggar?
They're both poor and hungy.


[quote]
What is their fault is that they've allowed it to remain the same and continue for centuries and centuries.[/quote]

And you assum that the elves have abosulutely no say in it?
What if the elves want to stay together in one district? What if alianages originate from them?



[quote][quote]
Ever seen a big town in India?
You'll find plenty of shacks, howels and poor people.
Yes, elves have it bad. But its not not unexpected nor is it all the Chantrys fault.[/quote]

But you admit the Chantry does bear blame. Your use of "nor is it all" admits that.[/quote]

No.
I admit nothing.




[quote]
More so the fault of the people who do it, but I'd say that the Chantry isn't entirely blameless there either. They weren't the hand that cast the torch, but I'd say that their lack of attempting to create a more even standing between the two races for centuries contributed to why it happened.[/quote]


Hm...excuse me, got to go make a list of everything that is wrong in the world and blame you for it because you did nothing to change it.





[quote][quote]
Shapeshifting is forbidden magic. She is a maleficar.[/quote]

A maleficar as defined by the Divine who examined the Chant of Light talking about it is simply a blood mage.

It may be forbidden magic, but it doesn't constitute being a maleficar.[/quote]

Debatable.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 17 octobre 2012 - 09:50 .

[Knight of Dane]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
One Circle in each country. The countries are big. It may take week jsut for a message to go from a circle to a town/village. And you don't know what limitations there are for the stones. I doubt they are used to chit-chat and are reserved only for important and official cirlce buisness.

Actually there is two circles in most countries, even four in the Free Marches:
AnderfelsHossbergAndrastian
AntivaUnknownAndrastian
FereldenJainenAndrastian
FereldenLake CalenhadAndrastian
Free MarchesAnsburgAndrastian
Free MarchesKirkwallAndrastian
Free MarchesMarkhamAndrastian
Free MarchesOstwickAndrastian
Free MarchesStarkhavenAndrastian
NevarraCumberlandAndrastian
NevarraNevarra CityAndrastian
OrlaisMontsimmardAndrastian
OrlaisVal RoyeauxAndrastian
RivainDairsmuidAndrastian
TevinterMinrathousImperial
TevinterQarinus

[Auintus]

@Soronnar's arguement
Maleficar is defined as "one who uses forbidden arts including, but not limited to, blood magic." As to whether or not shapeshifting is explicitly forbidden, I don't know, but shapeshifters are often considered maleficarum.

@Knight of Dane
The Free Marches aren't exactly a country. Their unique political condition justifies their having several circles.

Modifié par Auintus, 17 octobre 2012 - 01:14 .

[Knight of Dane]

Auintus wrote...
@Knight of Dane
The Free Marches aren't exactly a country. Their unique political condition justifies their having several circles.

So what? The circles aren't governed by countries but by local templars serving the chantry anyway.

[Medhia Nox]

So you Pro-Blood Magic people would be fine if I started cutting up your mom or kid brother - because I needed something.

"Don't worry man - this isn't EVIL - it's just magic. And this spell is going to get me a Big Mac for free... now, come here, it'll only hurt for a little while."

This is a fictional universe without any consequences... people are free to be utter hypocrites.

I fully support mages cutting themselves for blood magic... hopefully they'll hit a vein.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 17 octobre 2012 - 05:18 .

[Auintus]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Auintus wrote...
@Knight of Dane
The Free Marches aren't exactly a country. Their unique political condition justifies their having several circles.

So what? The circles aren't governed by countries but by local templars serving the chantry anyway.

Yes, but being forced to send your citizens to another city, especially when citizens are more loyal to their city than to the Marches as a whole, could result in political tensions that no one wants to deal with.
Kind of like how religion and politics are two completely different spheres, but were relentlessly intertwined for the longest time.

[Auintus]

Medhia Nox wrote...

So you Pro-Blood Magic people would be fine if I started cutting up your mom or kid brother - because I needed something.

"Don't worry man - this isn't EVIL - it's just magic. And this spell is going to get me a Big Mac for free... now, come here, it'll only hurt for a little while."

This is a fictional universe without any consequences... people are free to be utter hypocrites.

I fully support mages cutting themselves for blood magic... hopefully they'll hit a vein.

No, using blood magic isn't enough to condemn you in and of itself, but as soon as you start using the blood of unwilling individuals, you've crossed a line.

[Medhia Nox]

@Auintus: So if your mom was willing - you would totally be cool with it?

Find yourself a lot of "willing" blood donors running around eh?

"Excuse me - I'd like to cast a spell - can you come here so I can cut you?"

Do people even realize what they're saying when they try to rationalize blood magic?

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Auintus: So if your mom was willing - you would totally be cool with it?

Find yourself a lot of "willing" blood donors running around eh?

"Excuse me - I'd like to cast a spell - can you come here so I can cut you?"

Do people even realize what they're saying when they try to rationalize blood magic?

Well, when you can heal the damage almost instantly...

[Auintus]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Auintus: So if your mom was willing - you would totally be cool with it?

Find yourself a lot of "willing" blood donors running around eh?

"Excuse me - I'd like to cast a spell - can you come here so I can cut you?"

Do people even realize what they're saying when they try to rationalize blood magic?

If my mother agreed, it is perfectly acceptable: it's her blood, not mine.
I know exactly what I'm saying. I'm saying that there are lines that the vast majority of blood mages cross that makes their actions unacceptable. that does not mean that blood magic itself is the problem.

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilzhra: So you're into pain then I gather?

And you're aware that the "story blood magic" doesn't work like the "game blood magic" right?

The magic your character gets to use is always made to make your character feel like a bad ass.

To make a portal into the Fade using Blood Magic - a person needed to die. But... at least you can heal it later?!

====

So - you're cool letting me cut up a loved one if I promise to heal it afterward?

And what makes you think I'm going to keep that promise?

It certainly isn't the twisted morality going on in this thread.

====

@Auintus - and is your mother demented enough to say yes to this? 

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 17 octobre 2012 - 05:34 .

[Xilizhra]

@Xilzhra: So you're into pain then I gather?

And you're aware that the "story blood magic" doesn't work like the "game blood magic" right?

The magic your character gets to use is always made to make your character feel like a bad ass.

To make a portal into the Fade using Blood Magic - a person needed to die. But... at least you can heal it later?!

The "story blood magic" that we see generally does no visible damage at all aside from a brief blood spurt, like Merrill taking that one barrier down and Gascard tracking Alessa. Obviously, tearing a hole in the Fade is going to provide more power, but I'm willing to accept a bit of pain that I can heal instantly if it'll give me capabilities such as this.
In any case, not every blood mage uses other peoples' blood; Merrill, for instance, has no spells for that.