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Blood Magic. Great power should come with great price


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#101
Lotion Soronarr

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DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Cultist wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
To all you blood-magic supporters..I have  simpel question.
Let's say - hypotheticly - that I was a mighty blood mage. I had power to drain your life force, summon demons and mind control you...
Would you trust me with that power?
What say you my mind-puppets  friends?

I say Tevinter build a huge empire and used Blood Magic to secure humanity's dominance over other races thanks to draining life force, mind control and summoning of demons. And even after suffering from chantry uprising still managed to fend off Exalted Marches and fought invaders with blackpowder technology to a standstill.


That doesn't asnwer my question.

It is simple.
I am a blood mage. You are a normal human.
Do you trust me not to abuse my power?


My friend their are thousands of people in charge of YOU. and if they want to absue their own power they can make your live a living hell if they want to. Intensions is all that matters


Nope.

First of all, mind control is subtle and invisible. eanign you cna gt away with pretty much anything.

Secondly, anyone who is in charge of me, cannot force my mind.
Neither cna they do it easily or covertly.
And neither is that power intrinsic to them.

If you talking about the state, police or such - they are under scrutiny from others. The power of the people leading those institution relies on other poeple following orders (wich they cn easily refuse). And that pwoer can be taken away from them.


Institutional power is a whole different best from having personal magical power, which is again differnet from having the power to manipulate minds.

#102
EmperorSahlertz

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DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

To all you blood-magic supporters..I have  simpel question.

Let's say - hypotheticly - that I was a mighty blood mage. I had power to drain your life force, summon demons and mind control you...

Would you trust me with that power?


What say you my mind-puppets  friends?


[evilmage mode]
 Well if you object so much to bloodmagic then i will just destroy you and the entire city you live in by using fire magic. a workable compromise is it not?

[/evilmage mode]

At least a fireball to the face is honest...

#103
Cultist

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...
That doesn't asnwer my question.
It is simple.
I am a blood mage. You are a normal human.
Do you trust me not to abuse my power?

If Blood Mage can fight darkspawn, bandits or Qunari and magically build cities and highways better than me, then I see no reason to restrict them. Blood Mages abuse their power the same as any templar or politican do.

#104
Vandicus

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Cultist wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
That doesn't asnwer my question.
It is simple.
I am a blood mage. You are a normal human.
Do you trust me not to abuse my power?

If Blood Mage can fight darkspawn, bandits or Qunari and magically build cities and highways better than me, then I see no reason to restrict them. Blood Mages abuse their power the same as any templar or politican do.


Your statement implies that you trust politicians.

#105
Arokel

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Cultist wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
That doesn't asnwer my question.
It is simple.
I am a blood mage. You are a normal human.
Do you trust me not to abuse my power?

If Blood Mage can fight darkspawn, bandits or Qunari and magically build cities and highways better than me, then I see no reason to restrict them. Blood Mages abuse their power the same as any templar or politican do.


You are forgetting where that power comes from.  I doubt a blood mage could build a building (maybe a small one) or a highway with the power from one person.  The Tevinter Magisters would keep several slaves with them for this exact reason.  If they had to work an exceptionally powerful spell they would draw on their slaves.  Blood for their spells was half of the reason for the Tevitner slave trade.

#106
LobselVith8

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Arokel wrote...

It doesn't matter what you think.  It matters what those around you think.  Thanks to the Chantry the opinion of the majority of people in Thedas is that blood magic is evil.  The people should act on those beliefs.


How do you think people would respond to a blood mage? If we consider that the protagonist can use blood magic to be a hero or a villain, in the way that Warden mages have used blood magic to give them an edge against the darkspawn in sharp contrast to the Tevinter Magisters using blood magic to subjugate people, I can imagine some would react differently than others (depending on what the protagonist has done), although it's likely some people would vilify the protagonist simply for being a mage.

#107
Arokel

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LobselVith8 wrote...

Arokel wrote...

It doesn't matter what you think.  It matters what those around you think.  Thanks to the Chantry the opinion of the majority of people in Thedas is that blood magic is evil.  The people should act on those beliefs.


How do you think people would respond to a blood mage? If we consider that the protagonist can use blood magic to be a hero or a villain, in the way that Warden mages have used blood magic to give them an edge against the darkspawn in sharp contrast to the Tevinter Magisters using blood magic to subjugate people, I can imagine some would react differently than others (depending on what the protagonist has done), although it's likely some people would vilify the protagonist simply for being a mage.


It all comes down to stereotypes.  The stereotype of the blood mage in Thedas is the evil, manipulative sorceror who enslaves the minds of all those around and craves nothing but power.  Say what you will about the virtues of your blood mage (if you have one) but imo this stereotype has a larger basis in fact than many of our irl stereotypes.  

It also does not help that the average Thedosian (is that the word?) peasant or worker is likely to believe these stereotypes.  Not for a lack of intelligence but a lack of education.

#108
Auintus

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You would believe I stand for whatever I make you believe I stand for.


Don't you get it?
If you trust a blood mage, you can never know if that's on your own volition or if he subtly made you trust him.
The very concept of mind control excludes trust.
Characters like Prof X from X-Men are a fairy tale.

Mind-control can be used any time, everywhere, for pretty much anything. Just go on trough your normal day and count for just how many things you could use mind control.

The temptation to use it would be immense. The tempation would be verywhere..all the time.
And only a fool belives he can resit temptation forever.

If one belives he can use such power without ever becoming corrupted by it - that's the LAST person who should get it.


A Blood Mage cannot be trusted. Ever. No exceptions.


You have an incredibly cynical view of humans, and that is coming from someone who once believed that the best fate for the human race was complete annihilation.
"Magic shall serve that which is best in me, not that which is most base." It's always a matter of choice.

#109
Cultist

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Arokel wrote...
You are forgetting where that power comes from.  I doubt a blood mage could build a building (maybe a small one) or a highway with the power from one person.  The Tevinter Magisters would keep several slaves with them for this exact reason.  If they had to work an exceptionally powerful spell they would draw on their slaves.  Blood for their spells was half of the reason for the Tevitner slave trade.

Yes, there's a price for any power. But that's why elves and qunari exist)

#110
DKJaigen

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

KainD wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Let's say - hypotheticly - that I was a mighty blood mage. I had power to drain your life force, summon demons and mind control you...

Would you trust me with that power?


It doesn't matter if you are a blood mage, what would matter to me would be what you stood for. If I don't have a problem with that, the fact that you are a blood mage or not is trivial. 


You would believe I stand for whatever I make you believe I stand for.


Don't you get it?
If you trust a blood mage, you can never know if that's on your own volition or if he subtly made you trust him.
The very concept of mind control excludes trust.
Characters like Prof X from X-Men are a fairy tale.

Mind-control can be used any time, everywhere, for pretty much anything. Just go on trough your normal day and count for just how many things you could use mind control.

The temptation to use it would be immense. The tempation would be verywhere..all the time.
And only a fool belives he can resit temptation forever.

If one belives he can use such power without ever becoming corrupted by it - that's the LAST person who should get it.


A Blood Mage cannot be trusted. Ever. No exceptions.


Such bs from you again . You are a human being and as such you to have temptations. from the lowest to the highest person in our own society, to the powerful to the powerless, because its human nature. The true test is avoid it by restraining yourself. We allow all citizens enormous amount of freedom. If we cannot trust them then we should create a police state

Now i will judge you by your own standard. I dont think you should have any privliges or freedoms and your actions should be monitored 24 hours because you cannot guarantee me that you will not grab a knife and kill that nice old lady in in the street.

#111
DKJaigen

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

To all you blood-magic supporters..I have  simpel question.

Let's say - hypotheticly - that I was a mighty blood mage. I had power to drain your life force, summon demons and mind control you...

Would you trust me with that power?


What say you my mind-puppets  friends?


[evilmage mode]
 Well if you object so much to bloodmagic then i will just destroy you and the entire city you live in by using fire magic. a workable compromise is it not?

[/evilmage mode]

At least a fireball to the face is honest...


stupidest **** i ever heard.  Their is no such thing as honesty in war. The saying all war is deception is true. and  third: burning to death is perhaps the most horrible way for a person to die.

#112
Arokel

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DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

KainD wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Let's say - hypotheticly - that I was a mighty blood mage. I had power to drain your life force, summon demons and mind control you...

Would you trust me with that power?


It doesn't matter if you are a blood mage, what would matter to me would be what you stood for. If I don't have a problem with that, the fact that you are a blood mage or not is trivial. 



You would believe I stand for whatever I make you believe I stand for.


Don't you get it?
If you trust a blood mage, you can never know if that's on your own volition or if he subtly made you trust him.
The very concept of mind control excludes trust.
Characters like Prof X from X-Men are a fairy tale.

Mind-control can be used any time, everywhere, for pretty much anything. Just go on trough your normal day and count for just how many things you could use mind control.

The temptation to use it would be immense. The tempation would be verywhere..all the time.
And only a fool belives he can resit temptation forever.

If one belives he can use such power without ever becoming corrupted by it - that's the LAST person who should get it.


A Blood Mage cannot be trusted. Ever. No exceptions.


Such bs from you again . You are a human being and as such you to have temptations. from the lowest to the highest person in our own society, to the powerful to the powerless, because its human nature. The true test is avoid it by restraining yourself. We allow all citizens enormous amount of freedom. If we cannot trust them then we should create a police state

Now i will judge you by your own standard. I dont think you should have any privliges or freedoms and your actions should be monitored 24 hours because you cannot guarantee me that you will not grab a knife and kill that nice old lady in in the street.


He does have a fair point when it comes to temptation.  When a public official gives into temptation what usually happens is that money will dissapear.  If a blood mage gives into temptation a city block could wind up a sacrifices to power a spell.

Both people face the same challenge: tempation.  The conseuences however, are radically different.

#113
Cultist

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Arokel wrote...
He does have a fair point when it comes to temptation.  When a public official gives into temptation what usually happens is that money will dissapear.  If a blood mage gives into temptation a city block could wind up a sacrifices to power a spell.

Both people face the same challenge: tempation.  The conseuences however, are radically different.

It's actually not quite different and your camparison is correct in it's core but flawed in levels. We already have officials who can plunge entire communities into misery. Some can steal dam materials during constuction and doom cities to flooding. So it is incorrect to compare currupted clerc that steals money to Blood Mage who sacrifices a village.

#114
Arokel

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Cultist wrote...

Arokel wrote...
He does have a fair point when it comes to temptation.  When a public official gives into temptation what usually happens is that money will dissapear.  If a blood mage gives into temptation a city block could wind up a sacrifices to power a spell.

Both people face the same challenge: tempation.  The conseuences however, are radically different.

It's actually not quite different and your camparison is correct in it's core but flawed in levels. We already have officials who can plunge entire communities into misery. Some can steal dam materials during constuction and doom cities to flooding. So it is incorrect to compare currupted clerc that steals money to Blood Mage who sacrifices a village.


A good point but it is far easier for a mage to kill.  They do not require weapons.

(for the record I am pro mage)

#115
EmperorSahlertz

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DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

To all you blood-magic supporters..I have  simpel question.

Let's say - hypotheticly - that I was a mighty blood mage. I had power to drain your life force, summon demons and mind control you...

Would you trust me with that power?


What say you my mind-puppets  friends?


[evilmage mode]
 Well if you object so much to bloodmagic then i will just destroy you and the entire city you live in by using fire magic. a workable compromise is it not?

[/evilmage mode]

At least a fireball to the face is honest...


stupidest **** i ever heard.  Their is no such thing as honesty in war. The saying all war is deception is true. and  third: burning to death is perhaps the most horrible way for a person to die.

:mellow:
....
*Sigh*

#116
Arokel

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[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]DKJaigen wrote...

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]DKJaigen wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

To all you blood-magic supporters..I have  simpel question.

Let's say - hypotheticly - that I was a mighty blood mage. I had power to drain your life force, summon demons and mind control you...

Would you trust me with that power?


What say you my mind-puppets  friends?
[/quote]

[evilmage mode]
 Well if you object so much to bloodmagic then i will just destroy you and the entire city you live in by using fire magic. a workable compromise is it not?

[/evilmage mode]

[/quote]
At least a fireball to the face is honest...

[/quote]

stupidest **** i ever heard.  Their is no such thing as honesty in war. The saying all war is deception is true. and  third: burning to death is perhaps the most horrible way for a person to die.
[/quote]

I would make an argument for crucifixion.  The Romans knew their stuff. 

edit: why is this in quotes?

Modifié par Arokel, 01 octobre 2012 - 06:39 .


#117
goofyomnivore

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Blood Magic is the main reason Thedas still stands. It should be supported as a school of magic and learned more about to prevent abuse and further its productive uses.

#118
Arokel

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strive wrote...

Blood Magic is the main reason Thedas still stands. It should be supported as a school of magic and learned more about to prevent abuse and further its productive uses.


Blood Magic has two uses:
-It is an alternative power source to lyrium and mana.
-It can be used to kill or control you enemies in horrific ways.

One of those is unnecesary and the other is pretty horrific

There MIGHT be healing applications (magical transfusion?) but I suspect that developing them would be incredibly risky.

#119
PsychoBlonde

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

First of all, mind control is subtle and invisible. eanign you cna gt away with pretty much anything.


It hasn't been subtle or invisible when we've encountered it.  On the contrary, they've gone out of their way to beat us over the head with it.  So this argument doesn't really hold any water in regards to Blood Magic as it's *actually* been portrayed.  You are instead talking about some other, theoretical, variety of mind control.

The implementation of Blood Magic in the games has been totally mismanaged thus far, and I really do hope they make some serious effort to fix it in DA3.  I'm not sure they'll go anywhere like far enough to be taken seriously, though, because there are some serious problems with that entire approach.  If they make it as overall as important (powerful AND horrific) as it ought to be given all the hype, that'll mean writing almost an entire second game JUST for blood mages.  And if they just throw in a couple of side mentions, it'll be a joke.

What they really could do which would work great without turning this into DA3: Inquisition: The Blood Magic Story would be to slightly adjust how they handle the BM hype and how it's handled within the game writing.  How, you ask?  I'll tell you.

They need to make it so that an individual mage using their own blood for BM is NOT the Big Deal, it's mages using OTHER PEOPLE for that purpose that's the real Macguffin.  The reason why people react badly to seeing some mage cut their own hand for power is that, huh, if this person considers power to be so important, I may be next.

This could be worked into the story AND gameplay in a functional way.  It'd explain why your BM PC isn't some all-powerful combat god.  It'd let NPC's hassle you without trying to cut you down on the spot, because you haven't, quite, jumped over the threshold from "that ain't right" to "clear and present danger".

This could also be worked into the storyline really well without excluding the other character types.  People like having evil options, so what they could do is have a "corrupt" path where you choose to do things like beat people up for information (warrior), engage assassins and criminals to help you out (rogue), and, either use lightning bolts or blood magic (mage).  (Those don't have to be the only options per class, I'm just using those examples to point out how each class could quite easily have different but similar-in-effect "corrupt" options.)

If they do something similar to that, then they only have to put in a reasonable number of opportunities for you to use BM negatively and get something for it.  It becomes a functional part of the game instead of this huge oversetting problem.  

 Heck, if they really want to mix things up, there could be times where the only way to avert something nasty happening IS to use the "corrupt" option.  They could even use this with companions, in that each companion has a measure of how corrupt they see you as being, with different acts giving different levels of corruption +/- to different companions.  (Whether this would replace or tie in with the rivalry/friendship meter I leave up to them.)  So if someone REALLY hates blood magic, for instance, being a mage and using BM in front of them to make a witness talk is going to give them a HUGE wad of corruption points, whereas smacking that same witness around might actually seem like a positive thing to them given their particular personality and habits. 

Granted, this still leaves the question of demonic possession, which they have not even TOUCHED on regarding a PC mage, and the problem is, you can call something horrible all day and all night but until it actually affects the PC  it has no teeth.  Wouldn't it be cool that if you consistently pursue the BM corrupt options (and there ought to be corrupt non-BM options for mages) and then accept an offer from a demon (and there are going to be demons offering you SOMETHING at some point), towards the end of the game, when it reaches the big "final combat" sequence that they ALWAYS have, you turn into an abomination, mind-control your companions, and get to play out the finale that way?

I think that'd be cool, and there's no reason why it shouldn't work if they keep it to shortly before you ride off into the sunset.

#120
goofyomnivore

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Blood Magic has two uses:
-It is an alternative power source to lyrium and mana.
-It can be used to kill or control you enemies in horrific ways.


Blood magic helps create Grey Wardens without Grey Wardens we would not be able to defeat the previous five Blights.

Blood magic is used in phylactery to hunt mages.

Through blood magic research the Littany of Adralla was created. An actual tool to counter demon summons, mind control and defend mages against demons in the fade.

Modifié par strive, 01 octobre 2012 - 06:52 .


#121
dragonflight288

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strive wrote...

Blood Magic has two uses:
-It is an alternative power source to lyrium and mana.
-It can be used to kill or control you enemies in horrific ways.


Blood magic helps create Grey Wardens without Grey Wardens we would not be able to defeat the previous five Blights.

Blood magic is used in phylactery to hunt mages.

Through blood magic research the Littany of Adralla was created. An actual tool to counter demon summons, mind control and defend mages against demons in the fade.


I agree with this.

Without blood magic, mankind would still be suffering from the first blight, or be wiped out.

#122
PsychoBlonde

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dragonflight288 wrote...

I agree with this.

Without blood magic, mankind would still be suffering from the first blight, or be wiped out.

 
Erm, although depending on whom you believe you could also argue that without BM the first blight might never have happened at all . . .

#123
Arokel

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strive wrote...

Blood Magic has two uses:
-It is an alternative power source to lyrium and mana.
-It can be used to kill or control you enemies in horrific ways.


Blood magic helps create Grey Wardens without Grey Wardens we would not be able to defeat the previous five Blights.

Blood magic is used in phylactery to hunt mages.

Through blood magic research the Littany of Adralla was created. An actual tool to counter demon summons, mind control and defend mages against demons in the fade.


Forgot about all of those lol.

Of course someone else made a good point that Wardens would not be necessary if not for blood magic.  

#124
goofyomnivore

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Of course someone else made a good point that Wardens would not be necessary if not for blood magic.


That is just what the Chantry says. The only fact is blood magic is needed to create Wardens. How the Blights came to be is still unknowable.

#125
Dave of Canada

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strive wrote...

Blood magic helps create Grey Wardens without Grey Wardens we would not be able to defeat the previous five Blights.


It manipulates blood but doesn't use blood as the source, Duncan says the mages prepare the ritual using lyrium (which is a replacement for blood magic).

Blood magic is used in phylactery to hunt mages.


But can the Templar using the phylactery mind control, raise the dead and commit countless atrocities? Does he risk more at being possessed due to the power in his hands?

Through blood magic research the Littany of Adralla was created. An actual tool to counter demon summons, mind control and defend mages against demons in the fade.


But Adralla never touched blood magic, she researched to counter it.

strive wrote...

That is just what the Chantry says. The only fact is blood magic is needed to create Wardens. How the Blights came to be is still unknowable.


Legacy.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 01 octobre 2012 - 07:32 .