2177 réponses à ce sujet

[Auintus]

Todd23 wrote...

How about now?

Yep.

[Medhia Nox]

Well - all that aside - I still believe Blood Magic to be insanely barbaric.

In the games - several templars couldn't take down a blood mage - they had to grab him from behind.

And there's no indication (to my knowledge) that Morrigan or Flemeth are blood mages (your choice to make Morrigan one is not relevant). And they fought templars all the time.

You don't "need" it to fight templars.

That's like saying they "needed" Agent Orange in Vietnam. No - it was a barbaric - vile implement of war. That it works in inadmissible.

====

And on a purely story level - I HATE that they made Tranquility reversible. 

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 17 octobre 2012 - 07:31 .

[Auintus]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Well - all that aside - I still believe Blood Magic to be insanely barbaric.

In the games - several templars couldn't take down a blood mage - they had to grab him from behind.

And there's no indication (to my knowledge) that Morrigan or Flemeth are blood mages (your choice to make Morrigan one is not relevant). And they fought mages all the time.

You don't "need" it to fight templars.

That's like saying they "needed" Agent Orange in Vietnam. No - it was a barbaric - vile implement of war. That it works in inadmissible.

====

And on a purely story level - I HATE that they made Tranquility reversible. 

Tranquility is barbarism. Removing everything that makes a person truly alive is far worse than using your own life force to fuel a spell. When a blood mage uses other's blood, it is inacceptable, but not all blood mages do. Tranquility is a horror beyond death. Have you heard Karl describe it?

The fact that several templars had to take down a mage isn't a sign of barbarism, it's a demonstration of power.

No, you don't need it to fight templars, but it evens the odds after they drain a mage's mana. You forget that most mages only resort to blood magic when cornered, outnumbered, and usually innocent. It is more often an act of desperation than malice.

[Medhia Nox]

@Auintus: So you admit that most Non-Tevinter mages only resort to Blood Magic as a craven act of survival.

Well - for the same reason I was enemies of Morrigan - "survival" has no worth if it has "any cost".

===

And I specifically stated that I found the concept of Tranquility interesting as a "story element".

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 17 octobre 2012 - 07:44 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Auintus: So you admit that most Non-Tevinter mages only resort to Blood Magic as a craven act of survival.

Well - for the same reason I was enemies of Morrigan - "survival" has no worth if it has "any cost".

===

And I specifically stated that I found the concept of Tranquility interesting as a "story element".

I don't see why using your own blood to end people before they end you (or worse, apparently) is craven. If you had to kill innocents, then you have to start wondering if it's worth surviving this. However the templars, even the good ones, (which depending on which game we're talking are either a majority or a very small minority) are willingly going in to kill that mage. The mage is well within their rights to kill them.

As for Tranquility as an interesting story element... yes. Especially the templars panicking when they realise its not truly be-all-end-all, but really even before that.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 17 octobre 2012 - 08:44 .

[BlueMagitek]

KainD wrote...

@Medhia Nox

Yeah, but we don't have
non-magical people care about mage freedom. They were okay with mages
being part of the circle for a thousand years.

I say mages don't
owe anyone anything, and should all study blood magic for their own
personal gain. Until templars are defeated or people accept their
freedom atleast, maybe then mages will have more reasons to think about
common folk more.

Most non magical people have their own thigns to deal with.  I'm sure no City Elf's heart bleeds for someone who gets to live in a lavish tower where they're well protected and well fed.  The Dwarves have been dealing with Darkspawn for ages and it certainly isn't getting any better.  The Dalish are trying to survive and hold onto their culture.  Human commoners are always being forced into service by the nobles.  Sorry that the mostly non literate people of Thedas who are trying to survive don't have time to deal with mages in their comfy towers who are protected by Chantry neutrality.  <_<

So, screw everyone else because they have their own things to deal with?  That's rather cruel of you.

KainD wrote...

1) Blood magic is far little danger than templars. 

2)
Demons are not all crazy maniacs, some of them are reasonable and
itelligent. I do not see any problems with communicating or dealing with
them. 

No, a Templar is just a man with a sword and some magic resistance.  A Blood Mage is a man with access to magical power limited only by the amount of blood they have access to in addition to mind control.  

Well, except for all of the times it goes wrong.  Like, the vast majority of the time.  Unless you're in Tevinter.

[FINE HERE]

Congratulations on surviving 50 pages! I haven't nothing really relevent to add, but congrats!

Actually, I do have a question. If the player can use blood mage and is then gonna be hunted by templars and such, how exactly would that system work? If you battle in front of a templar, they'll know by your magic? Or is it gonna be a 'templar' sense thing and they'll just try to arrest/attack you on sight? I'm really curiously on how something like that would be set up.

[LobselVith8]

FINE HERE wrote...

Congratulations on surviving 50 pages! I haven't nothing really relevent to add, but congrats!

Actually, I do have a question. If the player can use blood mage and is then gonna be hunted by templars and such, how exactly would that system work? If you battle in front of a templar, they'll know by your magic? Or is it gonna be a 'templar' sense thing and they'll just try to arrest/attack you on sight? I'm really curiously on how something like that would be set up.

There are certain spells that are clearly blood magic; Wynne calls The Warden out on being a blood mage for using the same types of spells that the blood mages in Kinloch Hold were using, although he was supposed to be able to persuade her that it was simply "Grey Warden magic," although this scene is disabled because it bugged the Landsmeet if The Warden didn't persuade anyone and had to kill the templars and mages after admitting that he was a blood mage.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

FINE HERE wrote...

Actually, I do have a question. If the player can use blood mage and is then gonna be hunted by templars and such, how exactly would that system work? If you battle in front of a templar, they'll know by your magic? Or is it gonna be a 'templar' sense thing and they'll just try to arrest/attack you on sight? I'm really curiously on how something like that would be set up.

My impression is that the game is about you being in charge of the organization the templars folded into. If that is the plan, the most severe consequences there will likely be for being a blood mage would be disloyalty from your organization, maybe some coup attempts or templar-trained assassins trying to gank you in the back. (But the fans can reasonably wish for this to happen for roleplaying purposes.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 17 octobre 2012 - 09:29 .

[KainD]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Most non magical people have their own thigns to deal with.  I'm sure no City Elf's heart bleeds for someone who gets to live in a lavish tower where they're well protected and well fed.  The Dwarves have been dealing with Darkspawn for ages and it certainly isn't getting any better.  The Dalish are trying to survive and hold onto their culture.  Human commoners are always being forced into service by the nobles.  Sorry that the mostly non literate people of Thedas who are trying to survive don't have time to deal with mages in their comfy towers who are protected by Chantry neutrality.  <_<

So, screw everyone else because they have their own things to deal with?  That's rather cruel of you.

Well awesome, everyone has their own things to deal with and they don't care about others. So mages will do their own things and not care about others too, all fair and simple. Thedas doesn't want to be a healthy society anyway with all these problems, so no blame on mages for a little extra chaos. 

[BlueMagitek]

KainD wrote...

Well awesome, everyone has their own things to deal with and they don't care about others. So mages will do their own things and not care about others too, all fair and simple. Thedas doesn't want to be a healthy society anyway with all these problems, so no blame on mages for a little extra chaos.

Except that the Mage faction, if they all convert to mind controlling blood mages like you suggest, will be getting into the affairs of others, having offered no help in the past, and would almost certainly be seen as the aggressor.

[KainD]

BlueMagitek wrote...

KainD wrote...

Well awesome, everyone has their own things to deal with and they don't care about others. So mages will do their own things and not care about others too, all fair and simple. Thedas doesn't want to be a healthy society anyway with all these problems, so no blame on mages for a little extra chaos.

Except that the Mage faction, if they all convert to mind controlling blood mages like you suggest, will be getting into the affairs of others, having offered no help in the past, and would almost certainly be seen as the aggressor.

So? Let them make a second mage ruled imperium. As you said, it's everyone for themselves in Thedas.

[Auintus]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Auintus: So you admit that most Non-Tevinter mages only resort to Blood Magic as a craven act of survival.

Well - for the same reason I was enemies of Morrigan - "survival" has no worth if it has "any cost".

===

And I specifically stated that I found the concept of Tranquility interesting as a "story element".

When faced with death any alternative is preferable. I heard that somewhere and agree with it completely.
Tranquility is interesting, I will admit that much. Though why you take offense to its reversability is another question entirely.

[BlueMagitek]

KainD wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

KainD wrote...

Well awesome, everyone has their own things to deal with and they don't care about others. So mages will do their own things and not care about others too, all fair and simple. Thedas doesn't want to be a healthy society anyway with all these problems, so no blame on mages for a little extra chaos.

Except that the Mage faction, if they all convert to mind controlling blood mages like you suggest, will be getting into the affairs of others, having offered no help in the past, and would almost certainly be seen as the aggressor.

So? Let them make a second mage ruled imperium. As you said, it's everyone for themselves in Thedas.

I didn't realize you wanted the Qunari to rule over everyone. <_<

[KainD]

BlueMagitek wrote...

I didn't realize you wanted the Qunari to rule over everyone. <_<

I don't, but I won't BLAME them. Everyone has their own way. I'm just saying that there is no "good" side, no "right" way to do things. Everyone wants something, and everyone can't have it at the same time. compromise is an ilusion. 

[BlueMagitek]

KainD wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

I didn't realize you wanted the Qunari to rule over everyone. <_<

I don't, but I won't BLAME them. Everyone has their own way. I'm just saying that there is no "good" side, no "right" way to do things. Everyone wants something, and everyone can't have it at the same time. compromise is an ilusion. 

Fair enough then.

[Shadow Fox]

KainD wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

I didn't realize you wanted the Qunari to rule over everyone. <_<

I don't, but I won't BLAME them. Everyone has their own way. I'm just saying that there is no "good" side, no "right" way to do things. Everyone wants something, and everyone can't have it at the same time. compromise is an ilusion. 

Except that it's compromise that keeps humanity fom tearing itself apart on a daily basis.

[KainD]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Except that it's compromise that keeps humanity fom tearing itself apart on a daily basis.

Erm, no. It's survival of the fitest. We do not have any current real life examples of humans that by nature are different than others, and thus not equal like mages. But if we take an example of Qun - a nation that accepts no compromise, either ellimination or submit to Qun. Then you could compare that to Na-z-is, which thought that they are going to either enslave everyone or destroy them. What happened to Na-z-is? We destroyed them, we were in the majority and stronger. If we didn't there would be a slavery regime controled by Na-z-is until this day. So Thedas will either destroy the Qun, or Qun will prevail in Thedas. 

The situation with people that are devided by nature like mages/mundanes is the same. Since people don't really want to live in compromise and accept each other for what they are, it is going to eaither be oppressed mages that are locked away, or oppressed people that are going to be ruled by mages, like in Tevinter. Mages living in the circle is NOT compromise. A real compromise would be if mages were free but would at the same time never abuse their power. 

P.S: Na-z-is getting censored lmao. 

Modifié par KainD, 18 octobre 2012 - 12:18 .

[TEWR]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


One Circle in each country. The countries are big. It may take week jsut for a message to go from a circle to a town/village. And you don't know what limitations there are for the stones. I doubt they are used to chit-chat and are reserved only for important and official cirlce buisness.

You are correct in the latter part of this post. David Gaider said they are in fact reserved for official business.

That said, I'd argue that if the Divine is tasking the Circle to use them, that constitutes official business. Because... you know... the Chantry controlled the Circles prior to Asunder.

Sending mages to run around free kinda defeats the purpose of the Cirlce, no?

Note how I said supervised by a legion of Templars.

You also assume the Chantry does nothing to help the people and doesnt' allow mages to help. Which is not something you can prove.

Actually, I can. They sent only 7 Mages to fight the Blight at Ostagar -- eight if you're a Mage -- and do not help the populus. In fact, the Mages' Collective -- a group of apostates and Circle Mages -- had to work together in secret to improve the public perception of magic regarding problems the populus faced before the Chantry got involved.

Additionally, Kirkwall. The Mages there were not allowed to help the populus, and when Anders was helping people for free the citizens and refugees were so grateful they refused to turn him over. The dialogue with Lirene suggests that Thedas still uses leeches to take care of ailments, in the sense of how it was done centuries ago -- meaning overuse.

Two Circles, two countries. Unable to help the populus live better lives.
 

If anything, mages producing healing potions helps people.

Anyone can make them. That's hardly a Mage specific thing.

And to properly suprevise magtes outside, you'd need a contingent of templars for every mage.

*Ahem*

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote....

The Divine asks the Circle of Montsimmard to let the Circle of Ferelden know that they have been granted the ability to go out into the countryside -- supervised by Templar legions -- and help people with various things their magic could work towards. And that they should also send word towards the Circle of Rivain that they too can do that.

It's still a hungy mouth. You're looking at it group-wise and not individually.
Why would an elven beggar need more help than a human beggar?
They're both poor and hungy.

The Elf is worse off then the human. 

And you assum that the elves have abosulutely no say in it?
What if the elves want to stay together in one district? What if alianages originate from them?

I highly doubt the Elves said "Let us live in your worst district filled with disease, filth, crappy houses, and everything else!"

No.
I admit nothing.

You said "nor is it all the Chantry's fault" (bolded mine). That use of "all" implies that you acknowledge the Chantry bears some blame. If you didn't think they were at fault at all, you would've simply said "nor is it the Chantry's fault".

Hm...excuse me, got to go make a list of everything that is wrong in the world and blame you for it because you did nothing to change it.

I am not in control of an organization that spans the known world, nor do I have political clout with the rulers of the world.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 octobre 2012 - 06:26 .

[TEWR]

Auintus wrote...

Maleficar is defined as "one who uses forbidden arts including, but not limited to, blood magic." As to whether or not shapeshifting is explicitly forbidden, I don't know, but shapeshifters are often considered maleficarum.

Actually, Divine Renata I decreed centuries prior to the Dragon Age that a maleficar is defined as any blood mage.

The Chantry has made it a point to conflate maleficarum with apostate over the following centuries since Renata I's interpretation of the Chant of Light and subsequent declaration of what it means.

It's not accurate, however. Maleficar means in the Tevinter language "one who is depraved", so it applying only to malicious blood mages isn't an accurate interpretation.

People like Alrik or Karras are certainly maleficar, because they are depraved.

[Auintus]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Maleficar is defined as "one who uses forbidden arts including, but not limited to, blood magic." As to whether or not shapeshifting is explicitly forbidden, I don't know, but shapeshifters are often considered maleficarum.

Actually, Divine Renata I decreed centuries prior to the Dragon Age that a maleficar is defined as any blood mage.

The Chantry has made it a point to conflate maleficarum with apostate over the following centuries since Renata I's interpretation of the Chant of Light and subsequent declaration of what it means.

It's not accurate, however. Maleficar means in the Tevinter language "one who is depraved", so it applying only to malicious blood mages isn't an accurate interpretation.

People like Alrik or Karras are certainly maleficar, because they are depraved.

The silverite rune is the Tevinter symbol for Dumat. Meanings change, old words are used in new ways. Colliquially, the term maleficar refers to any mage who practices forbidden arts. The question as to what is forbidden is still in the air, but certainly includes blood mages.

[Medhia Nox]

@Auintus: I don't take "offense" to it - I think it negates it as a compelling story concept. What made Tranquility terrifying... was that there was no known way to reverse it.

It's a horrible fantasy trope - "There are no dragons."

You can bet - by book three - there will be rumors of dragons, and then an attack, then sightings... and finally dragons everywhere.

=====

Concerning this "rebellion" - I'm Pro-Reform - Anti-Rebellion to achieve the reform.

But always against Blood Magic in any form (even the Phylacteries - if that's been confirmed as Blood Magic - and not "Magic that happens to affect blood" - there is a difference) - as for the Grey Wardens, they serve a purpose and already have a death sentence against them, so I am willing to ignore them.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Auintus: I don't take "offense" to it - I think it negates it as a compelling story concept. What made Tranquility terrifying... was that there was no known way to reverse it.

It's a horrible fantasy trope - "There are no dragons."

You can bet - by book three - there will be rumors of dragons, and then an attack, then sightings... and finally dragons everywhere.

I kind of like seeing the Templar reaction to the possibility that it can be reversed, and later the revelation that there is a known way to reverse it.

=====

Concerning this "rebellion" - I'm Pro-Reform - Anti-Rebellion to achieve the reform.

But always against Blood Magic in any form (even the Phylacteries - if that's been confirmed as Blood Magic - and not "Magic that happens to affect blood" - there is a difference) - as for the Grey Wardens, they serve a purpose and already have a death sentence against them, so I am willing to ignore them.

The Seekers and Templars have basically proven that the reform you adknowledge as good will happen over their dead bodies. Rebellion is neccesary if reform is going to happen.

As for the phylacteries, yes, that is confirmed blood magic. One could argue that it serves a purpose, however.

[Auintus]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Auintus: I don't take "offense" to it - I think it negates it as a compelling story concept. What made Tranquility terrifying... was that there was no known way to reverse it.

It's a horrible fantasy trope - "There are no dragons."

You can bet - by book three - there will be rumors of dragons, and then an attack, then sightings... and finally dragons everywhere.

=====

Concerning this "rebellion" - I'm Pro-Reform - Anti-Rebellion to achieve the reform.

But always against Blood Magic in any form (even the Phylacteries - if that's been confirmed as Blood Magic - and not "Magic that happens to affect blood" - there is a difference) - as for the Grey Wardens, they serve a purpose and already have a death sentence against them, so I am willing to ignore them.

Sorry, I use "offense" as a catch-all term. Anything you don't like, in any way, for any reason.

Actually, the horrifying part wasn't that you couldn't reverse it, it was everything about the condition itself. I don't remember anyone even mentioning that it was irreversible, just that it was awful.

The mages tried reform for ages. It never worked. Sometimes, drastic measures must be taken.

The phylacteries and Grey Wardens are a "grey area." Blood is part of it, but doesn't fuel it. I personally don't consider it blood magic unless the blood is the fuel.

[Medhia Nox]

@Riverdaleswhiteflash: Well - I have the same problem with this rebellion on a story level too.

The concepts that make Dragon Age unique as a fantasy world are being tossed - and after this war all of Thedas can rejoice about just how similar it is becoming to every other fantasy world in existence.

With the Harrowing, the Circle, Tranquility, Templars, and threats of abominations.... I could identify a Dragon Age mage.

After this game - sadly I think they'll just be... "Another Mage Clone"

=====

Next -  the Qunari will give up the Qun and be fully integrated to family friendly status.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 18 octobre 2012 - 02:10 .