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Blood Magic. Great power should come with great price


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#1301
Cultist

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Do you have any proof that is WASN'T?

No, I don't. Nor have I claimed that I did. I've said that I highly doubt the Elves would even approach anyone with the idea of living in slums.

Just a bit of clarification - you shouldn't. Burden of proof.
"When debating any issue, there is an implicit burden of proof on the person asserting a positive claim
The one who makes an assertion must assume the responsibility of defending it. If this responsibility or burden of
proof is shifted to a critic, the fallacy of appealing to ignorance is committed.”

Modifié par Cultist, 19 octobre 2012 - 09:06 .


#1302
Cultist

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Some health pots and a pair of elven boots IIRC. Not much, but people are hurt and starving. What do you expect? A parade in your honor?
And in REdcliffe the revered motehr doesn't refuse to help, she refuses to lie without a good cause. And lying to the knights can both increase their morale AND cause them to be more reckless and die.

You mean a templar, giving you old boots, not revered mother? Nice help it is, more like throwing out a trash. And Redcliffe is irrevelent - she refuses unless you force her.

Becaue that's what happened to the poepel with the Shroud of Turin? OR the people at Lourdes? Or countless of others religiosu artifcats from Saitns that are revered and gaurded to this day?

Kinda having the guardian and super-heling ashes AND a famous Chantry schoolar (Genetivi) not only gives  credence to the whole thing, but the ashes are something the Chantry would LOVE to have.

Seriously, give me ONE reason why hte cahtnry wouldn't be thrilled? The Ashes are nothing but good news.

And Blood Mages, reavers and others are ******-poor Wardens to begin with, given their horrible sense of priorities, since they put their dislike of the Chantry ahread of the Blight. And even those characters would stand to gain, by profiteering off of it - in more ways than one.
A mage finiding the ashes of Andraste and passing her trials? Do tell me how that would be bad for mages?
A blood mage, hinding the in plain sight of the Chantry and getting rich of the faitfull sheep?

For each Shroud there are dozens of felons. But that is irrevelant, as that is the situation where pro-Chantry Warden actually returns the Ashes, not defiling it for profit.
As for blood Mages - you are already proven wrong because every of this variations of Wardens, Blood Mages, Reavers, Dwarves, Elves - succeed. Thus, they are successful Wardens. Please, dont again turn to your fanfiction about Chantry help, Chantry help in defeating the Blight, and untold riches, provided by the Divine.
They put their dislike for the Chantry before defeating the Blight because that very dislike does not affect fighting the Blight at all. Thus, every action agains Chantry is a viable course of action, unconnected with efforts in killing Archdemon.

Can you see anything from any other perspective than your own?
Isolde couldn't let go. She was overprotective and obsessive.

Indeed, what a foolish mother! Tried to keep her child from kidnappers, really, how dare she!

Keep on preachin'.
Tempars aren't monsters worse than Uldred.
You overlbow the abuse and downplay the danger of mages. Always have been.
Mages are a menace to everyone. Templars are - at worst - a thorn in the mages hind quarters.

Again, the fact that all Circles rebelled against the Templars, for the first time in thousand years, is proof enough that mages if fed up with Templar's abuses you try to downplay.
Slavers always try to look like benefactors to their slaves, like Templars do.

#1303
Cultist

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Cultist wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Auintus wrote...
Tranquility is barbarism. Removing everything that makes a person truly alive is far worse than using your own life force to fuel a spell.


Subjective really.

Uh-huh, especially when a man, temporary cured from tranquility, asks to kill him, rather than return back to the state of happy "Templar Solution". But he's just ungrateful, unable to appreciate the generous gift of everloving Chantry.


Subjective.
Karls oppinion. Especially sine he hated the tempalrs before being tranquil.

Also, you'd think that logic and reason would be what is prised among humans, given that that is what truly separates us from the animals. Not dreaming. Animals can dream too

That, compared with this:

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Mages and all who support them need to be eradicated forever.

is a pinnacle of Templar vs Mages bebate.

- You have to donate your heart to our glorious leader.
- But I will die!
- That is subjective and unpatriotic! Seize this selfish ungrateful man!

#1304
TEWR

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Lotion Soronnar wrote..


While the player has a MASSIVE ego and thinks everyone should kiss the Wardens ass and wait on his hand and feet, the rest of the world doesn't see it that way.


Not the Warden. The Wardens. As in Duncan and his group prior to the PC joining their ranks.


NO ONE believed it was a real Blight. 
Everyone was convinced they would win the day easily. And yet you single out the Chantry here for no other reason then because you want to.


Obviously you haven't seen my defense of Loghain Mac Tir, where although I defend him I also ascribe blame to the Wardens and the Army -- in varying levels of percentage -- as to why Ostagar failed.

But the Chantry sure didn't help Ostagar have a chance at succeeding.

The Chantry didn't send Mages to help not because they believed it wasn't a Blight, but because they didn't want many Mages at Ostagar -- something that Gregoir says and the priest at Ostagar reinforces by saying that no lives would be trusted to Uldred's spells.

Which was a good call I'd argue, but she didn't say it because Uldred and Loghain were in cahoots -- as that wasn't known until after the events at the Circle -- but rather because she just didn't trust Mages at all.

Loghain however was given no credible reason to believe that it was a Blight, and Cailan didn't believe it simply because he hadn't seen any Dragons in the Wilds. 

Loghain had sufficient reason to believe it wasn't a Blight -- wrong as it was. The Chantry actually refused the aid of Mages for a different reason.

But it does prove that the Circles DO let proven mages out.


When they're anywhere from 50-70.

Yeah that's great.

Also note that those two were members of the most liberal Circle in Thedas, and yet we still hear about Mages having to help the populus in secret


Was that part of the city always as run down as it is now, or did it start to deteriorate once the elves were put there?
People and circumstances shape the enviroment, or so people say.


Ah, so your stance is that it was originally a decent place, but then more and more Elves led to deteriorating conditions due to less room, possible surges in crime, etc.

Well, in that case, no I do not know. So if they indeed had decent lodging that fell to **** over the centuries, that's one thing. 



Not enough. You have to give ALL of your gold.


It'd be easy if the game allowed that option to exist. But you can't chastise the PC for not doing an option when that option was never available in the game itself.

But my PC also donated to the Blight Orphans -- a sham that may have been, he was not aware at first though through overheard banter knew, but kept doint it anyway -- and used his political savvy to transform Vigil's Keep and the Arling of Amaranthine into a trading hub that saw economic growth.

Along with forging alliances with the Dwarves and Ferelden, promoting trade. Which would, possibly, lead to an increase in agricultural output thanks to Dwarven engineering. But that's more headcanon/fanfiction.

Anyway, in any event where the option to donate money was, I donated money. 

You can even, to my surprise, give 1000 sovereigns to the Dwarven Mistress the DN can sleep with and sire a child with, if you have the coin.

Honestly, I never knew that before.

#1305
Kaiser Arian XVII

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Duh.. this thread sickens me.
Bunch of maniacs who want to enjoy the chaos they raise by their magic, no matter the consequences and their excuse is "because templars don't let us ... we want absolute freedom ... blah blah", just like youths logic.

For the last time...
USING BLOOD MAGIC BRINGS DEMONS AND ABOMINATIONS. IT IS INDEED EVIL. EVEN WITH A PRAGMATIC AND BENEFIT/LOSS POINT OF VIEW IT ISN'T WORTH IT, UNLESS YOU ONLY CARE FOR YOUR POWER AND IGNORE ANYONE ELSE THAT MAKE YOU A MEAN SUN OF A ####.
A WARDEN SACRIFICES HIS LIFE BY DRINKING DARKSPAWN BLOOD AND FINALLY DIEING AFTER SLAYING THE ARCHDEMON. THE WARDENS WHO USE BLOOD MAGIC ARE THE FALLEN ONES AND IN ONE OF DA:O DLCS IT'S PROVEN THAT THEY'RE WRONG.

I'm done with this thread.

#1306
Terrorize69

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Legatus Arianus wrote...

Duh.. this thread sickens me.
Bunch of maniacs who want to enjoy the chaos they raise by their magic, no matter the consequences and their excuse is "because templars don't let us ... we want absolute freedom ... blah blah", just like youths logic.

For the last time...
USING BLOOD MAGIC BRINGS DEMONS AND ABOMINATIONS. IT IS INDEED EVIL. EVEN WITH A PRAGMATIC AND BENEFIT/LOSS POINT OF VIEW IT ISN'T WORTH IT, UNLESS YOU ONLY CARE FOR YOUR POWER AND IGNORE ANYONE ELSE THAT MAKE YOU A MEAN SUN OF A ####.
A WARDEN SACRIFICES HIS LIFE BY DRINKING DARKSPAWN BLOOD AND FINALLY DIEING AFTER SLAYING THE ARCHDEMON. THE WARDENS WHO USE BLOOD MAGIC ARE THE FALLEN ONES AND IN ONE OF DA:O DLCS IT'S PROVEN THAT THEY'RE WRONG.

I'm done with this thread.

U mad? Lol

Blood magic isn't inheritly evil, using it doesn't automatically make them a psycopath. Merrill is a perfect example, she doesn't summon demons to kill people or go round depending blood sacrifices, don't recall her eating babies either. Althought she did put flowers in my house and waters them.

Modifié par Terrorize69, 19 octobre 2012 - 11:12 .


#1307
Urzon

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Terrorize69 wrote...

Althought she did put flowers in my house and waters them.


That evil psychotic b!$%#! Those kinds of wrongdoings will not stand!

TO ARMS!!!

#1308
BlueMagitek

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Terrorize69 wrote...

U mad? Lol

Blood magic isn't inheritly evil, using it doesn't automatically make them a psycopath. Merrill is a perfect example, she doesn't summon demons to kill people or go round depending blood sacrifices, don't recall her eating babies either. Althought she did put flowers in my house and waters them.


With the blood of her mentor.  :whistle:

Blood Magic is, for more often than not, used for evil.  Most of the powers we know about it tend to be evil (or at the very least, somewhat dubious).

#1309
Terrorize69

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BlueMagitek wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

U mad? Lol

Blood magic isn't inheritly evil, using it doesn't automatically make them a psycopath. Merrill is a perfect example, she doesn't summon demons to kill people or go round depending blood sacrifices, don't recall her eating babies either. Althought she did put flowers in my house and waters them.


With the blood of her mentor.  :whistle:

Blood Magic is, for more often than not, used for evil.  Most of the powers we know about it tend to be evil (or at the very least, somewhat dubious).


Used for evil and being evil are too very different things. If someone goes and kills children with a sword, is the sword evil? Or the person who wields it?

#1310
BlueMagitek

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Terrorize69 wrote...

Used for evil and being evil are too very different things. If someone goes and kills children with a sword, is the sword evil? Or the person who wields it?


Swords can be taken away or defended against.  Blood magic cannot.  It pierces even the Templar's defenses.  A maniac with a sword can be stopped much more easily than a maniac with blood magic.

#1311
Lotion Soronarr

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Cultist wrote...

Just a bit of clarification - you shouldn't. Burden of proof.
"When debating any issue, there is an implicit burden of proof on the person asserting a positive claim
The one who makes an assertion must assume the responsibility of defending it. If this responsibility or burden of
proof is shifted to a critic, the fallacy of appealing to ignorance is committed.”


BS.
Anyone making a definite claim should prove it. The assertion (Chantry doesn't help)  demands evidence.

And that "positive/negative" refers to things who's existance is hard to disprove. Like pink unicorns.
But that certanly doesn't apply here.

#1312
Terrorize69

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BlueMagitek wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

Used for evil and being evil are too very different things. If someone goes and kills children with a sword, is the sword evil? Or the person who wields it?


Swords can be taken away or defended against.  Blood magic cannot.  It pierces even the Templar's defenses.  A maniac with a sword can be stopped much more easily than a maniac with blood magic.


Point missed entirely. It matters not if a tool can be removed, its those wielding it to commit vile acts that are evil.

Oh and Seekers also penetrate Templar defences yet they wield swords and are immune to blood magic. They are as deadly as any maniac who chooses to use blood magic for evil.

#1313
Lotion Soronarr

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Cultist wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Some health pots and a pair of elven boots IIRC. Not much, but people are hurt and starving. What do you expect? A parade in your honor?
And in REdcliffe the revered motehr doesn't refuse to help, she refuses to lie without a good cause. And lying to the knights can both increase their morale AND cause them to be more reckless and die.

You mean a templar, giving you old boots, not revered mother? Nice help it is, more like throwing out a trash. And Redcliffe is irrevelent - she refuses unless you force her.


Templars are technicly part of the Chantry. And healing pots are helpfull and elven boots are good gear.
Again - what did you expect given the circumstances?
I repeat - the Warden is a fugitive accused of king-slaying and Loithering is swarmed with hungry and hurt refugees.

And again, Redclife mother has godo reasons to not want to lie. As I said, that lie can hurt just as much as it can help.





As for blood Mages - you are already proven wrong because every of this variations of Wardens, Blood Mages, Reavers, Dwarves, Elves - succeed. Thus, they are successful Wardens.


Suceeding despite making bad decision.
Yes, that makes you a bad Warden. Sucesfull due to plot shield and luck, not because of actual brains.

Please, dont again turn to your fanfiction about Chantry help, Chantry help in defeating the Blight, and untold riches, provided by the Divine.


Please, try to use your brain for a change. I know it's asking much, but seriously. You have yet to provide any counter-argument to this.

They put their dislike for the Chantry before defeating the Blight because that very dislike does not affect fighting the Blight at all.


It ENDS UP not affecting it at all. But logicly it should. You put the outcome ahead of the reasoning behind the decision.
What you are doing again here is metagaming.



Indeed, what a foolish mother! Tried to keep her child from kidnappers, really, how dare she!


The Circle was for her own protection and for Connors.
Just look at how many people died. If she had any brains she would have sent him to the Circle.



Keep on preachin'.
Tempars aren't monsters worse than Uldred.
You overlbow the abuse and downplay the danger of mages. Always have been.
Mages are a menace to everyone. Templars are - at worst - a thorn in the mages hind quarters.

Again, the fact that all Circles rebelled against the Templars, for the first time in thousand years, is proof enough that mages if fed up with Templar's abuses you try to downplay.
Slavers always try to look like benefactors to their slaves, like Templars do.


It isn't proof of anything other than mages want more power.

#1314
Lotion Soronarr

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Cultist wrote...
That, compared with this:

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Mages and all who support them need to be eradicated forever.

is a pinnacle of Templar vs Mages bebate.

- You have to donate your heart to our glorious leader.
- But I will die!
- That is subjective and unpatriotic! Seize this selfish ungrateful man!


You truly are a silly man, you know that.
Your sarcasm detector must be broken.

#1315
Lotion Soronarr

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
The Chantry didn't send Mages to help not because they believed it wasn't a Blight, but because they didn't want many Mages at Ostagar -- something that Gregoir says and the priest at Ostagar reinforces by saying that no lives would be trusted to Uldred's spells.


The comments of the Ostagar priests prove nothing.
And ascribing dark motivations without any proof is irrelevant.
What you are doign right now is being a general after the battle - something anyone can do - and go on assiging blame and pointing fingers.
In truth, if you were there and in command Ferelden would have fallen immediately.


But it does prove that the Circles DO let proven mages out.


When they're anywhere from 50-70.
Yeah that's great.

Also note that those two were members of the most liberal Circle in Thedas, and yet we still hear about Mages having to help the populus in secret


Again, proof that younger mages are not let out too?

You're talking apostates. Of course they work in secret.

You are free to assume whatever you want, but without actual proof it is pointless.


B.t.w. - since you cannot prove you gave away gold, it doesn't count. Threfore you didn't give any gold.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 19 octobre 2012 - 12:50 .


#1316
BlueMagitek

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Terrorize69 wrote...

Point missed entirely. It matters not if a tool can be removed, its those wielding it to commit vile acts that are evil.

Oh and Seekers also penetrate Templar defences yet they wield swords and are immune to blood magic. They are as deadly as any maniac who chooses to use blood magic for evil.


You're also using the point; a sword and innate magic cannot be compared.  What also matters is the damage that can be done by a 'tool', and the ease it can be removed.

The only Seekers I recall are from DA2, where all they did was interrogate Varric.  

Edit:

Oh, you're taking that information from a codex written by an unknown priest about rumors. 

Modifié par BlueMagitek, 19 octobre 2012 - 12:56 .


#1317
Terrorize69

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BlueMagitek wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

Point missed entirely. It matters not if a tool can be removed, its those wielding it to commit vile acts that are evil.

Oh and Seekers also penetrate Templar defences yet they wield swords and are immune to blood magic. They are as deadly as any maniac who chooses to use blood magic for evil.


You're also using the point; a sword and innate magic cannot be compared.  What also matters is the damage that can be done by a 'tool', and the ease it can be removed.

The only Seekers I recall are from DA2, where all they did was interrogate Varric.  

Edit:

Oh, you're taking that information from a codex written by an unknown priest about rumors. 

Either tool can cause death, there is no greater damage then taking a life.

 

#1318
Medhia Nox

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A 'sword' doesn't attract demons that try to inhabit my body for the rest of my life.

#1319
Terrorize69

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Medhia Nox wrote...

A 'sword' doesn't attract demons that try to inhabit my body for the rest of my life.

So any evil committed by those wielding swords are done by their own freewill instead of that of a demon.

Which is better because?

Modifié par Terrorize69, 19 octobre 2012 - 01:10 .


#1320
BlueMagitek

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Terrorize69 wrote...

Either tool can cause death, there is no greater damage then taking a life.

 


That's a flawed premise.  What good is that life if I strip everything from it and break everything that made it unique?  What good is the life if the will has been stripped from it?  Blood Magic does this much more easily than any sword could.  Blood magic can force a demon into an unwilling mage (see Uldred boss battle). 

#1321
Terrorize69

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BlueMagitek wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

Either tool can cause death, there is no greater damage then taking a life.

 


That's a flawed premise.  What good is that life if I strip everything from it and break everything that made it unique?  What good is the life if the will has been stripped from it? 

Drugs, booze and poison/toxins have similar results and can be used readily by anyone at any time.

Blood magic just gets more attention cause its more shiney.

#1322
Xilizhra

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BlueMagitek wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

Either tool can cause death, there is no greater damage then taking a life.

 


That's a flawed premise.  What good is that life if I strip everything from it and break everything that made it unique?  What good is the life if the will has been stripped from it?  Blood Magic does this much more easily than any sword could.  Blood magic can force a demon into an unwilling mage (see Uldred boss battle). 

Then just don't use blood magic for that. Simple enough assuming you're not already immoral.

#1323
BlueMagitek

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Terrorize69 wrote...

Drugs, booze and poison/toxins have similar results and can be used readily by anyone at any time.

Blood magic just gets more attention cause its more shiney.


Let me know when those are capable of transforming your thoughts from a distance while you're asleep.  You wouldn't even notice anything is wrong.  And I've yet to see any of those force a demon into a mage, or summon demons.

Xilizhra wrote...

Then just don't use blood magic for that. Simple enough assuming you're not already immoral.


The answer can't be 'Just trust them with it'.  That plan isn't fair to anyone when the Litany is the only defense against it (and only interupts it midway, can't undo damage that has been done).  Restriction or banning it outright is perfectly fine for such a danger.

#1324
Terrorize69

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BlueMagitek wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

Drugs, booze and poison/toxins have similar results and can be used readily by anyone at any time.

Blood magic just gets more attention cause its more shiney.


Let me know when those are capable of transforming your thoughts from a distance while you're asleep.  You wouldn't even notice anything is wrong.  And I've yet to see any of those force a demon into a mage, or summon demons.


Instead they can do it when your awake, willing and in full control. To me that seems worse.

True they don't summon actually demons, but that doesn't make them any less evil or deadly. They do however turn people into living mortal representatives of demons.

A drunk man could leave the hanged man and murder an innocent person in cold blood cause he removed all self control, willingly.

An addict can pledge his soul to thieves and murderers to commit a number of acts just to fuel his addiction.

Someone could poison another, intoxicate his mind, resulting in him going home and killing their family.

Blood magic isn't alone in its ability to be able cause the user and others to lose their mind. Just its restricted to a minority.

Seems to me blood magic is the least evil amounst those.

#1325
Doodleydowop

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Terrorize69 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

Drugs, booze and poison/toxins have similar results and can be used readily by anyone at any time.

Blood magic just gets more attention cause its more shiney.


Let me know when those are capable of transforming your thoughts from a distance while you're asleep.  You wouldn't even notice anything is wrong.  And I've yet to see any of those force a demon into a mage, or summon demons.


Instead they can do it when your awake, willing and in full control. To me that seems worse.

True they don't summon actually demons, but that doesn't make them any less evil or deadly. They do however turn people into living mortal representatives of demons.

A drunk man could leave the hanged man and murder an innocent person in cold blood cause he removed all self control, willingly.

An addict can pledge his soul to thieves and murderers to commit a number of acts just to fuel his addiction.

Someone could poison another, intoxicate his mind, resulting in him going home and killing their family.

Blood magic isn't alone in its ability to be able cause the user and others to lose their mind. Just its restricted to a minority.

Seems to me blood magic is the least evil amounst those.



And do you know what must happen to drunk murderers, drug addicts that are prompted to crime and poisoners?

They are locked up and/or punished. Like blood mages should be.