2177 réponses à ce sujet

[Doodleydowop]

Terrorize69 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

A 'sword' doesn't attract demons that try to inhabit my body for the rest of my life.

So any evil committed by those wielding swords are done by their own freewill instead of that of a demon.

Which is better because?

Its better because our free wills are at least slightly less bloody-minded and less cruel than a demon's will.

[Medhia Nox]

"Just trusting" the mages period is beyond stupid for the rest of the populace.

People never seem to try to look at it from the position of a non-mage. It's always inane ramblings about injustices against people who attract demons - can slaughter a whole village with a bad mood - or worse, enslave that village to his whims.

As a mage player - I empathize FAR more with the non-magic populace than I do with some whiny mage.

My powers shouldn't be trusted by people who can't understand them - because they're not even remotely aware of what I'm capable of - and what I'm capable of as a mage is pretty terrifying.

Sure - it's a Guilded Cage - but the Circle of Ferelden has absolutely nothing of the abuse that's present in Kirkwall. And that city is corrupt at its core with Tevinter blood magic (or whatever it is that underneath the city - I don't recall - the game left a bad taste)

Which is why - as an Inquisitor my mage will be protecting the populace of Orlais (or wherever) from Libertarians who are - to me - little more than self-serving power mongers.

No laws to deal with magic is a far worse world for all of Thedas.

Reform is fine - but letting people live under the rules of the average populace... while they have powers insanely beyond the average populace.... is idiocy for any government in Thedas.

[Terrorize69]

Doodleydowop wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

Drugs, booze and poison/toxins have similar results and can be used readily by anyone at any time.

Blood magic just gets more attention cause its more shiney.

Let me know when those are capable of transforming your thoughts from a distance while you're asleep.  You wouldn't even notice anything is wrong.  And I've yet to see any of those force a demon into a mage, or summon demons.

Instead they can do it when your awake, willing and in full control. To me that seems worse.

True they don't summon actually demons, but that doesn't make them any less evil or deadly. They do however turn people into living mortal representatives of demons.

A drunk man could leave the hanged man and murder an innocent person in cold blood cause he removed all self control, willingly.

An addict can pledge his soul to thieves and murderers to commit a number of acts just to fuel his addiction.

Someone could poison another, intoxicate his mind, resulting in him going home and killing their family.

Blood magic isn't alone in its ability to be able cause the user and others to lose their mind. Just its restricted to a minority.

Seems to me blood magic is the least evil amounst those.

And do you know what must happen to drunk murderers, drug addicts that are prompted to crime and poisoners?

They are locked up and/or punished. Like blood mages should be.

They aren't locked up indefinitely. They are also judged by their acts, buy for simply being.

A drunk isn't arrested and locked up for life just cause they might perform an act of evil. Same with addicts.

[BlueMagitek]

Terrorize69 wrote...

Instead they can do it when your awake, willing and in full control. To me that seems worse.

True they don't summon actually demons, but that doesn't make them any less evil or deadly. They do however turn people into living mortal representatives of demons.

A drunk man could leave the hanged man and murder an innocent person in cold blood cause he removed all self control, willingly.

An addict can pledge his soul to thieves and murderers to commit a number of acts just to fuel his addiction.

Someone could poison another, intoxicate his mind, resulting in him going home and killing their family.

Blood magic isn't alone in its ability to be able cause the user and others to lose their mind. Just its restricted to a minority.

Seems to me blood magic is the least evil amounst those.

And once again, those are restricted and typically punished.  Blood Magic has the ability to do it discreetly, from a distance and without anyone being the wiser without intervention.  So why not restrict Blood Magic, which is primed exactly for mind manipulation, when we do the same for those things?

Edit:  Yes, but alcohol is freely available.  If the texts for blood magic are lost, and blood mages rounded up, the only known way to learn it is from a demon.  So by knowing blood magic, they'd be at fault for consorting with demons.

Modifié par BlueMagitek, 19 octobre 2012 - 02:05 .

[KainD]

@BlueMagitek

Communicating with demons is not a "fault".

[Doodleydowop]

KainD wrote...

@BlueMagitek

Communicating with demons is not a "fault".

Making a deal with them is!

And from DA:O it seems demons will only teach you blood magic if theres something in it for them. (For instance, letting them go free and/or possess a kid!)

[Terrorize69]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

Instead they can do it when your awake, willing and in full control. To me that seems worse.

True they don't summon actually demons, but that doesn't make them any less evil or deadly. They do however turn people into living mortal representatives of demons.

A drunk man could leave the hanged man and murder an innocent person in cold blood cause he removed all self control, willingly.

An addict can pledge his soul to thieves and murderers to commit a number of acts just to fuel his addiction.

Someone could poison another, intoxicate his mind, resulting in him going home and killing their family.

Blood magic isn't alone in its ability to be able cause the user and others to lose their mind. Just its restricted to a minority.

Seems to me blood magic is the least evil amounst those.

And once again, those are restricted and typically punished.  Blood Magic has the ability to do it discreetly, from a distance and without anyone being the wiser without intervention.  So why not restrict Blood Magic, which is primed exactly for mind manipulation, when we do the same for those things?

Edit:  Yes, but alcohol is freely available.  If the texts for blood magic are lost, and blood mages rounded up, the only known way to learn it is from a demon.  So by knowing blood magic, they'd be at fault for consorting with demons.

Only 1 of those 3 things is restricted, still easy to come by. All 3 of those things can easily be as discreet, and can be done by anyone no matter who they are.

You are putting too much faith into the range at which blood magic can influence, a blood mage couldn't entrall someone from one side of the building to another let alone across a city, close range influence is needed, as close as getting someone drugged or intoxicated.

But yes once entralled they can be controlled across a distance, like an addict feeding his addiction by doing favours.

Demons are human/chantry tales, other see them as spirits, children of some god or another. In that case all religous types should be locked up for worshipping a spirit

Blood magic isn't evil. Humanity is.

[KainD]

Doodleydowop wrote...

KainD wrote...

@BlueMagitek

Communicating with demons is not a "fault".

Making a deal with them is!

And from DA:O it seems demons will only teach you blood magic if theres something in it for them. (For instance, letting them go free and/or possess a kid!)

That demon taught me blood magic because she didn't want to fight me. She left Connor alone forever and taught me blood magic. 

Also there are all sorts of demons, they are pretty different. In the mage origin a spirit requests a duel for a favor or NOT, again showing that they can act in different ways. A sloth demon teaches "mouse" bear form for a couple of riddles. 

[Medhia Nox]

@KainD: Actually - she says she's just going to take Connor during his Harrowing if I recall correctly.

So you're making a deal for Blood Magic to just delay Connors possession/death.

Spirits and Demons aren't the same. Demons are exclusively all the negative impulses of human nature.

A Spirit Healer comes from Spirits... and Blood Magic comes from Demons.

[brushyourteeth]

What I've learned from lurking on this thread is that if David Gaider wants to make the point that blood magic is a generally dumb and dangerous choice (and I think he is), they'll need to do a much better job of showing that in the games for people to understand.

[KainD]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@KainD: Actually - she says she's just going to take Connor during his Harrowing if I recall correctly.

So you're making a deal for Blood Magic to just delay Connors possession/death.

Spirits and Demons aren't the same. Demons are exclusively all the negative impulses of human nature.

A Spirit Healer comes from Spirits... and Blood Magic comes from Demons.

No, she left Connor alone FOREVER and taught me blood magic, it just required highest tear of Coercion skill. So no I haven't sold Connor to her. 

Demons are not negative impulses, that is just what they feed from, it doesn't always have to do with who they are as a "person". Emotions are a means to an end, which they feed from. If they represented nothing but their "domain" they would have no character what so ever, and wouldn't be able to communicate. 

[Medhia Nox]

Dude - justify it however you want.

Becoming allies with something called Wrath or Pride or Sloth for power is a pitiful act.

You allowed a creature that killed dozens of people in Redcliff - and tortured dozens more - and threatened to kill even dozens more... and possessed a child... go, so you could learn some spells.

It's pitiful.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 19 octobre 2012 - 03:09 .

[KainD]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Dude - justify it however you want.

Becoming allies with something called Wrath or Pride or Sloth for power is a pitiful act.

You allowed a creature that killed dozens of people in Redcliff - and tortured dozens more - and threatened to kill even dozens more... and possessed a child... go, so you could learn some spells.

It's pitiful.

People call them that, it's not what demons call themselves. I personally believe that demons can be communicated with on a deeper level, and that there are more intelligent ones out there, that understand the "thing". 

I don't think that hurting the desire demon would bring back the people of redcliff, however those "some" spells saved me from risking going to the dungeon, as those were the most powerful spells, that made me be able to defeat sir Catherine with her little army, and many more instances actually. 

[Medhia Nox]

So blood magic saved you from inconvenience... totally worth it then!

I'm glad you're okay with the abuses of spiritual entities on an unwitting populace.

I'm not.

And I completed the game just fine without blood magic.

[DKJaigen]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Dude - justify it however you want.

Becoming allies with something called Wrath or Pride or Sloth for power is a pitiful act.

You allowed a creature that killed dozens of people in Redcliff - and tortured dozens more - and threatened to kill even dozens more... and possessed a child... go, so you could learn some spells.

It's pitiful.

If you say so. But as a grey warden im not their to safe a bunch of people. Your only concern should be the blight and the blight alone. 

[Medhia Nox]

@DKJaigen: Yep - I stopped that too.

You do realize you're stopping the Blight... to save people... yes?

Learning Blood Magic is purely self-serving.

[KainD]

Medhia Nox wrote...

So blood magic saved you from inconvenience... totally worth it then!

I'm glad you're okay with the abuses of spiritual entities on an unwitting populace.

I'm not.

And I completed the game just fine without blood magic.

Yes it was worth it. 

I am not ok with spiritual entities abusing unwitting populace, that's why I stopped the demon in the first place, and didn't let her have Connor. But I am not so emotional as to waste an opportunity because of some principles that don't affect me or people around me in any way. If fighting the demon would bring the dead people back, that would be a different question. 

[Medhia Nox]

@KainD: You kill Flemeth? Loghain?

[marshalleck]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@DKJaigen: Yep - I stopped that too.

You do realize you're stopping the Blight... to save people... yes?

Learning Blood Magic is purely self-serving.

It's not like Bioware would make it impossible to stop the Blight. This feels like it's almost bordering on a meta game argument. 

[Vandicus]

KainD wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

So blood magic saved you from inconvenience... totally worth it then!

I'm glad you're okay with the abuses of spiritual entities on an unwitting populace.

I'm not.

And I completed the game just fine without blood magic.

Yes it was worth it. 

I am not ok with spiritual entities abusing unwitting populace, that's why I stopped the demon in the first place, and didn't let her have Connor. But I am not so emotional as to waste an opportunity because of some principles that don't affect me or people around me in any way. If fighting the demon would bring the dead people back, that would be a different question. 

Because that demon is no longer a demon and won't be an all-around murdering d-bag in the future? 

So you don't kill a killer because killing them won't bring people back, while ignoring the possibility of them killing people in the future?

[Doodleydowop]

KainD wrote...

Doodleydowop wrote...

KainD wrote...

@BlueMagitek

Communicating with demons is not a "fault".

Making a deal with them is!

And from DA:O it seems demons will only teach you blood magic if theres something in it for them. (For instance, letting them go free and/or possess a kid!)

That demon taught me blood magic because she didn't want to fight me. She left Connor alone forever and taught me blood magic. 

Also there are all sorts of demons, they are pretty different. In the mage origin a spirit requests a duel for a favor or NOT, again showing that they can act in different ways. A sloth demon teaches "mouse" bear form for a couple of riddles. 

Emphasis mine. Agreeing to let someone go in exchange for power is STILL MAKING  A DEAL.

Did you let the slaver in the elven alienage go in return for money/power/evidence? Same principle applies.  You made a deal with a demon, and that is how many mages learn blood magic.

This taints the knowledge, similar to learning how to make bombs from a terrorist can come with knowledge of how to strap them to children and hide them in populated areas.

[Terrorize69]

I wouldn't mind being tainted by a desire demon XD

[KainD]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@KainD: You kill Flemeth? Loghain?

Killed Flemeth, because of Morrigan, who was a friend. 
Didn't kill Loghain. 

[Medhia Nox]

@marshalleck: It isn't. There's no reason to believe you NEED Blood Magic to defeat the Dark Spawn.

Non-Mages have historically beaten one (an Archdemon) - so you need only look to the stories history to know that it isn't "required".

In fact - personal power, while not an invalid argument, is more meta-gaming to me since you have to meta-game to know you're the only chance Ferelden has to defeating the Dark Spawn.

Technically Alistair can do it too - why not spend all your time encouraging HIM to be powerful? The answer is simple - the game is about you.

The strength to defeat the Dark Spawn comes from your alliances - not your personal power.

The choice of "Blood Magic" is simply for the Grimdarks who get a rise out of the edgy powers - and to get it, you need to do craven things like deal with a murderous she-**** from the Fade.

==========

KainD: You killed Flemeth... for a friend? 

Don't preach to me about emotion.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 19 octobre 2012 - 04:20 .

[KainD]

Vandicus wrote...

Because that demon is no longer a demon and won't be an all-around murdering d-bag in the future? 

So you don't kill a killer because killing them won't bring people back, while ignoring the possibility of them killing people in the future?

It's a demon:
1) They don't die properly for good.
2) There's a whole bunch of other demonsd around, there are so many that rarely any get the chance to cross the veil.