2177 réponses à ce sujet

[KainD]

Doodleydowop wrote...

Emphasis mine. Agreeing to let someone go in exchange for power is STILL MAKING  A DEAL.

Did you let the slaver in the elven alienage go in return for money/power/evidence? Same principle applies.  You made a deal with a demon, and that is how many mages learn blood magic.

This taints the knowledge, similar to learning how to make bombs from a terrorist can come with knowledge of how to strap them to children and hide them in populated areas.

No I didn't let the slaver go, because it was the CURRENT lives at stake, and I wouldn't kill them for my personal gain. Not the same principle. And again, you can't compare demons to people. People are always with us, and that demon as far as I know won't have another chance to cross the veil, and if I killed the demon there are plenty more out there, it changes nothing, as long as people are silly enough to get possessed unwilingly. 

[Medhia Nox]

@KainD: And that is the fault of Bioware.

Not only does the Pride Demon in your Origin tell you that he'll ALWAYS be haunting you.

But Wynne says that demons are always a danger to every mage.

Your frivolous opinion about "silly people" - is a failure on Bioware's part to stick to what they've said about demons.

The Pride Demon from the Origin should always been harassing you throughout the game.

[LobselVith8]

brushyourteeth wrote...

What I've learned from lurking on this thread is that if David Gaider wants to make the point that blood magic is a generally dumb and dangerous choice (and I think he is), they'll need to do a much better job of showing that in the games for people to understand.

Which would contradict Duncan's emphasis in the Magi Origin about Grey Warden mages using blood magic to give them an edge against the darkspawn, and Merrill using blood magic proficiently for several years without abusing it or misusing it. This isn't Star Wars; blood magic isn't the Dark Side of the Force. I don't see why blood magic should be vilified when it depends entirely on the mage using it. We already had an entire game where mage antagonists were simply insane lunatics who acted incoherently; I'd prefer to see some rational, intelligent, three-dimensional mages who didn't go insane or abuse their abilities simply because the Plot Demands It.

In combat against a templar, blood magic offers the opportunity to continue using magic without the templars being able to shut down his magical abilities. It gives them an edge.

[KainD]

Medhia Nox wrote...

KainD: You killed Flemeth... for a friend? 

Don't preach to me about emotion.

But it wasn't emotional, there was nothing personal in it. It was just:
"You know Morrigan is my friend, and you will harm her.. so sorry but you have to go..."

[KainD]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@KainD: And that is the fault of Bioware.

Not only does the Pride Demon in your Origin tell you that he'll ALWAYS be haunting you.

But Wynne says that demons are always a danger to every mage.

Your frivolous opinion about "silly people" - is a failure on Bioware's part to stick to what they've said about demons.

The Pride Demon from the Origin should always been harassing you throughout the game.

That would be a nice touch I agree. I would want to know that demon better and reason with it. 

[Medhia Nox]

@LobselVith - you're saying "because the plot demands it" the codex for blood magic tells you this will happen to you.

Actually - it's the plot staying consistent with the blood magic they've described.

The PC is the one with plot armor.

====

@KainD: "Reason" with it.... uh huh. 

It's amazing you assume demons don't lie.

Did Connor go to Tevinter in the end of your playthrough? 

And caring for your friends... is a laundry list of emotions. There's nothing rational that says Morrigan somehow deserves to live... and Flemeth to die.

It was self-serving.  You had a friend.. you wanted a friend to live.  That serves you.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 19 octobre 2012 - 04:29 .

[LobselVith8]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@LobselVith - you're saying "because the plot demands it" the codex for blood magic tells you this will happen to you.

Actually - it's the plot staying consistent with the blood magic they've described.

The PC is the one with plot armor.

Being insane and stupid is not supported by the lore. Decimus thinking that Merrill, Varric, and Fenris are templars is simply asinine. Tahrone looking like a crack addict, acting like a lunatic, and getting any level of support is lunacy in itself; Grace wanting revenge against the man who helped her escape is more Plot induced stupidity that is there to force the Champion down a linear path, no matter what choice he makes; and Orsino losing his marbles because Hawke and his moiety crew defeated a myriad of templars is more lunacy from a mage to give us a boss fight, not because it's supposed to make any coherent sense.

The codex on blood magic, "From The Four Schools: A Treatise, by First Enchanter Josephus," makes no mention of blood magic leading to insanity. The lore reads, "The effects can be vile, but this specialization isn't limited to madmen and monsters. Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it's tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons." Merrill is another example of how blood magic doesn't demand that the mage becomes insane as a consequence.

[Medhia Nox]

But everyone who rambles on about blood magic states that they'll do anything to survive... isn't that in line with some, if not all, of these?

Craven survival at any cost - sounds like Blood Magic to me.

Funny how people think the Chantry codexes are all lies - but the Mage codexes aren't bias at all. 

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 19 octobre 2012 - 04:36 .

[KainD]

@Medhia Nox 

 I consider demons to be "people", I think there can be found ways to interact with them meaningfully without causing harm to anyone, and that some of them can be reasoned with. 

What is this about Connor and Tevinter? I must have missed something.

Ok, ok it's emotional to care for a friend, but so is fightning the desire demon instead of reasoning with it, which I didn't hold strong emotions for the dead. It was self serving but there was no harm done to anyone in the process. 

[Medhia Nox]

@KainD: Except to an ancient wizard - who seems to be a broken old lady... WHO SAVED YOUR LIFE  ((doesn't matter if it's a plot scripted event))... and preserved the Warden scrolls.

You killed a woman who did all that - and let a demon who did all it did live... for personal power. 

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 19 octobre 2012 - 04:39 .

[LobselVith8]

Medhia Nox wrote...

But everyone who rambles on about blood magic states that they'll do anything to survive... isn't that in line with some, if not all, of these?

You mean the caricatures of Dragon Age II who never made any sense, as I addressed above?

Medhia Nox wrote...

Craven survival at any cost - sounds like Blood Magic to me.

Funny how people think the Chantry codexes are all lies - but the Mage codexes aren't bias at all. 

Is this about the debate over the Dales? There were two conflicting codex entries. The Orlesian codex on the fall of the Dales contradicts the Dalish Warden codex on the fall of the Dales, and people felt inclined to believe one over the other as being more accurate. It's an issue of who you believe - the imperialistic empire that conquers other nations, or the people who wanted to live seperate from humanity to regain their immortality.

[Medhia Nox]

No - I don't care at all about the elves.

Though I think their old empire will turn out to be drenched uin blood magic and was thrown down for being worse than Tevinter... but that's based on only a shred of knowledge - I know next to nothing about Arlathan? and I could be way off there.

No - I just hear nonsense about Chantry codex entries all the time... the Mage ones could be equally biased. Of course a blood mage would write about how practical and benign Blood Magic is. We don't know anything about who wrote the entry.

[KainD]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@KainD: Except to an ancient wizard - who seems to be a broken old lady... WHO SAVED YOUR LIFE  ((doesn't matter if it's a plot scripted event))... and preserved the Warden scrolls.

You killed a woman who did all that - and let a demon who did all it did... for personal power. 

I didn't ask Flemeth to do what she did, I didn't owe her anything. Also she could atleast stay away from Morrigan, but she was like: "Oh damn right I have plans for her! I will find her!" 

Demon left Connor and Redcliff alone and that was the main purpose of confronting it, fightning it would gain no one anything. 

[LobselVith8]

Medhia Nox wrote...

No - I don't care at all about the elves.

Though I think their old empire will turn out to be drenched uin blood magic and was thrown down for being worse than Tevinter... but that's based on only a shred of knowledge - I know next to nothing about Arlathan? and I could be way off there.

No - I just hear nonsense about Chantry codex entries all the time... the Mage ones could be equally biased. Of course a blood mage would write about how practical and benign Blood Magic is. We don't know anything about who wrote the entry.

All the codex entries are biased, one way or another. I don't think anyone disputes that. However, the First Enchanter wasn't a blood mage, and didn't describe it as benign, simply that it didn't cause lunacy in the respective blood mage using this particular school of magic.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 19 octobre 2012 - 04:45 .

[Medhia Nox]

@KainD: But letting it go to find another kid sure got you something eh?

====

@LobselVith8: So why use one to make Blood Magic seem benign? You focus on one line to support your approval of blood magic...

And what Codex entry are you reading? The one online says nothing of what you're quoting. I'll have to load up the game tonight.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 19 octobre 2012 - 04:51 .

[KainD]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@KainD: But letting it go to find another kid sure got you something eh?

There is a whole bunch of other demons in the fade, and they are all trying to cross the veil, most of them don't succeed, there will be 10 other demons still there in the fade for this one I kill, 9 of which won't even cross the veil anyway. You are talking as if she is the one and only out there. 

And yes it got me more means to fight the blight. 

Modifié par KainD, 19 octobre 2012 - 04:52 .

[Terrorize69]

I hope we can meet the demons in the fade when we pick blood magic, and decide who offers the best deals

[Vandicus]

KainD wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Because that demon is no longer a demon and won't be an all-around murdering d-bag in the future? 

So you don't kill a killer because killing them won't bring people back, while ignoring the possibility of them killing people in the future?

It's a demon:
1) They don't die properly for good.
2) There's a whole bunch of other demonsd around, there are so many that rarely any get the chance to cross the veil.

They do actually die properly for good, when killed in the Fade at least. Also, they're not immortal(age-wise) except outside of the Fade. TEWRD can confirm this for you.

[Vandicus]

KainD wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@KainD: But letting it go to find another kid sure got you something eh?

There is a whole bunch of other demons in the fade, and they are all trying to cross the veil, most of them don't succeed, there will be 10 other demons still there in the fade for this one I kill, 9 of which won't even cross the veil anyway. You are talking as if she is the one and only out there. 

And yes it got me more means to fight the blight. 

You know this how exactly? It seems like you're mistaking Thedas demons for run of the mill D&D demons.

[KainD]

Vandicus wrote...

They do actually die properly for good, when killed in the Fade at least. Also, they're not immortal(age-wise) except outside of the Fade. TEWRD can confirm this for you.

Where can I read more information about demons? Wiki and codex offers too little. 

[Vandicus]

KainD wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

They do actually die properly for good, when killed in the Fade at least. Also, they're not immortal(age-wise) except outside of the Fade. TEWRD can confirm this for you.

Where can I read more information about demons? Wiki and codex offers too little. 

In game stuff. The Ethereal Writer Redux has more familiarity with it than I do. This is what happens after a demon is destroyed(in the Fade presumably, since we know from the demon codex when the host is destroyed in the material world they simply return to the Fade).

http://dragonage.wik...iki/Wisp_wraith

Idr where TWER sourced demons not being immortal age wise.

Modifié par Vandicus, 19 octobre 2012 - 05:06 .

[KainD]

@Vandicus

So it presumably again.

How are demons born if they are not immortal?

[Vandicus]

KainD wrote...

@Vandicus

So it presumably again.

How are demons born if they are not immortal?

It is presumable that their destruction must occur in the Fade.

It is not presumable that they are not impossible to kill. That is fact. Dead demons=demons can die.

The link shows you exactly what happens when a demon is destroyed. They become a wisp.

*EDIT

It should be fairly straightforward that if a demon is afraid of being destroyed in the Fade, they are afraid for good reason. Your premise of being able to threaten demons with destruction to coerce them into not harming people contradicts your argument that demons can't be destroyed.

Modifié par Vandicus, 19 octobre 2012 - 05:12 .

[KainD]

So what happens when you kill a wisp wraith?

[LobselVith8]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@LobselVith8: So why use one to make Blood Magic seem benign? You focus on one line to support your approval of blood magic...

And what Codex entry are you reading? The one online says nothing of what you're quoting. I'll have to load up the game tonight.

That wasn't from the codex on blood magic, it was from the lore about blood magic which addressed that some mages use blood magic because they see it as the only school of magic that is truly "free" since it's tied to the physical. It also addresses that some mages abuse blood magic.