2177 réponses à ce sujet

[Vandicus]

KainD wrote...

So what happens when you kill a wisp wraith?

Don't know. If its been covered in lore, TEWR might know, like I said he's more familiar with the subject than I am, and was the one who corrected my own erroneous beliefs that demons were age-wise immortal.

[BlueMagitek]

Terrorize69 wrote...

Only 1 of those 3 things is restricted, still easy to come by. All 3 of those things can easily be as discreet, and can be done by anyone no matter who they are.

You are putting too much faith into the range at which blood magic can influence, a blood mage couldn't entrall someone from one side of the building to another let alone across a city, close range influence is needed, as close as getting someone drugged or intoxicated.

But yes once entralled they can be controlled across a distance, like an addict feeding his addiction by doing favours.

Demons are human/chantry tales, other see them as spirits, children of some god or another. In that case all religous types should be locked up for worshipping a spirit

Blood magic isn't evil. Humanity is.

I'm fairly certain that poisons and drugs are restricted.  Unless you're counting the stuff you make yourself?  That requires skill points.

Uh, no, a Blood Mage can influence people through their dreams.  (Blood Magic the Forbidden School). It isn't just "Let me slit my hand in front of you". 

Well, a demon is a spirit, but a spirit isn't always a demon.  They can be corrupted (Justice), but for the most part the difference between the two happens to be based on what they represent and if they want to mess around outside the Fade.  And Templars do try to put a stop to Mages, I'm not sure where you're going with this.

Uh huh. 

KainD wrote...

But it wasn't emotional, there was nothing personal in it. It was just:
"You know Morrigan is my friend, and you will harm her.. so sorry but you have to go..."

Yeah, Morrigan is manipulating you as well, you're aware of that right?  <_<
And, you know, Flemeth is responsible for ending the blight so early.  
It was selfish.

[KainD]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Yeah, Morrigan is manipulating you as well, you're aware of that right?  <_<
And, you know, Flemeth is responsible for ending the blight so early.  
It was selfish.

You think Morrigan doesn't care for the PC? 

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Well, a demon is a spirit, but a spirit isn't always a demon.  They can be corrupted (Justice), but for the most part the difference between the two happens to be based on what they represent and if they want to mess around outside the Fade.  And Templars do try to put a stop to Mages, I'm not sure where you're going with this.

I believe Terrorize69 is addressing that Spirits and Demons are part of Andrastian religious teachings, while non-Andrastians like Merrill simply see them as spirits instead of the Maker's "First Children."

BlueMagitek wrote...
Yeah, Morrigan is manipulating you as well, you're aware of that right?  <_< 

I didn't realize your opinion on the situation was fact.

BlueMagitek wrote...

And, you know, Flemeth is responsible for ending the blight so early.  
It was selfish. 

I thought The Warden gathering allies across Ferelden was the reason why the Blight was stopped.

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Well, a demon is a spirit, but a spirit isn't always a demon.  They can be corrupted (Justice), but for the most part the difference between the two happens to be based on what they represent and if they want to mess around outside the Fade.  And Templars do try to put a stop to Mages, I'm not sure where you're going with this.

I believe Terrorize69 is addressing that Spirits and Demons are part of Andrastian religious teachings, while non-Andrastians like Merrill simply see them as spirits instead of the Maker's "First Children."

BlueMagitek wrote...
Yeah, Morrigan is manipulating you as well, you're aware of that right?  <_< 

I didn't realize your opinion on the situation was fact.

BlueMagitek wrote...

And, you know, Flemeth is responsible for ending the blight so early.  
It was selfish. 

I thought The Warden gathering allies across Ferelden was the reason why the Blight was stopped.

I thought Morrigan made it explicit that she is manipulating the PC.

Flemeth saves Warden, sets them on path to end Blight. Ergo Flemeth is responsible for ending the Blight as a major player in the events.

[KainD]

Vandicus wrote...

I thought Morrigan made it explicit that she is manipulating the PC.

Flemeth saves Warden, sets them on path to end Blight. Ergo Flemeth is responsible for ending the Blight as a major player in the events.

She did let me go through the Eluvian with her, so that kinda defeats the purpose of manupulation imo, felt like I was not helping her anymore but was in it with her. 

[BlueMagitek]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I believe Terrorize69 is addressing that Spirits and Demons are part of Andrastian religious teachings, while non-Andrastians like Merrill simply see them as spirits instead of the Maker's "First Children."

I didn't realize your opinion on the situation was fact.

I thought The Warden gathering allies across Ferelden was the reason why the Blight was stopped.

What the Chantry calls them really has nothing to do with it.  Banastor (if that's his name, anyway, the Scrolls), a very... enthusiastic blood mage, calls them demons as well.  I'm going based on intent, hence Justice turning into Vengence and what have you.

Well, she is.  Her entire ploy for going is to get the soul of the Old God, and then she wants Flemeth out of the way after reading the book.  She probably does care for the PC if you go that route, but that doesn't mean she doesn't have her own motivations.

You mean using the treaties that Flemeth preserved and gave to the Grey Wardens?  After being saved and then restored by Flemeth, who decided to send along Morrigan to not only ensure success but to save the Warden's life?   Flemeth had a very large impact in stopping the blight.

[Auintus]

Vandicus wrote...

I thought Morrigan made it explicit that she is manipulating the PC.

Flemeth saves Warden, sets them on path to end Blight. Ergo Flemeth is responsible for ending the Blight as a major player in the events.

While I will agree that Flemeth was instrumental in ending the Blight, it seems rather clear that if Morrigan is romanced, or at high enough friendship, she actually begins to care for the PC.

Also, I think Flemeth may be similar to Dishonored's "The Outsider." She plays a part in keeping characters that are important to the fate of Thedas alive(the Warden and Hawke," yet has little to do with what they do after that. She keeps the destiny of Thedas moving, without affecting its direction.

Modifié par Auintus, 19 octobre 2012 - 05:27 .

[Vandicus]

KainD wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

I thought Morrigan made it explicit that she is manipulating the PC.

Flemeth saves Warden, sets them on path to end Blight. Ergo Flemeth is responsible for ending the Blight as a major player in the events.

She did let me go through the Eluvian with her, so that kinda defeats the purpose of manupulation imo, felt like I was not helping her anymore but was in it with her. 

Manipulation is done to achieve a desired goal. In the case of the Eluvian she is no longer attempting to manipulate the PC, since she's gotten what she wants. Letting you help her in no way harms her or invalidates her plans.

[Vandicus]

Auintus wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

I thought Morrigan made it explicit that she is manipulating the PC.

Flemeth saves Warden, sets them on path to end Blight. Ergo Flemeth is responsible for ending the Blight as a major player in the events.

While I will agree that Flemeth was instrumental in ending the Blight, it seems rather clear that if Morrigan is romanced, or at high enough friendship, she actually begins to care for the PC.

Also, I think Flemeth may be similar to Dishonored's "The Outsider." She plays a part in keeping characters that are important to the fate of Thedas alive(the Warden and Hawke," yet has little to do with what they do after that. She keeps the destiny of Thedas moving, without affecting its direction.

Caring and manipulation are not mutually exclusive. It is explicit, that Morrigan was trying to manipulate the PC to achieve OGB. That she actually cares for the Warden is irrelevant to the existence of her attempted manipulation.

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

I thought Morrigan made it explicit that she is manipulating the PC.

Actually, there was supposed to be a scene between Alistair and Morrigan that made it explicitly clear that Morrigan wanted to save The Warden because she cared about him. There was artwork done to illustrate this scene by Aimo, with the dialogue written by David Gaider.

Vandicus wrote...

Flemeth saves Warden, sets them on path to end Blight. Ergo Flemeth is responsible for ending the Blight as a major player in the events. 

Flemeth may not have been altruistic in her actions. The darkspawn threaten everyone, after all.

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

I thought Morrigan made it explicit that she is manipulating the PC.

Actually, there was supposed to be a scene between Alistair and Morrigan that made it explicitly clear that Morrigan wanted to save The Warden because she cared about him. There was artwork done to illustrate this scene by Aimo, with the dialogue written by David Gaider.

Vandicus wrote...

Flemeth saves Warden, sets them on path to end Blight. Ergo Flemeth is responsible for ending the Blight as a major player in the events. 

Flemeth may not have been altruistic in her actions. The darkspawn threaten everyone, after all.

Again, manipulation and caring are not mutually exclusive. Manipulation can be done to the benefit of the party being manipulated

Parents manipulate children all the time to convince them to eat healthy foods, "Broccolli will make you strong like superman".

To your second statement, so? Flemeth is highly responsible for stopping the Blight. That's all I've said. Her altruism or lack thereof is irrelevant to her responsibility in stopping the Blight.

[KainD]

Vandicus wrote...

Manipulation is done to achieve a desired goal. In the case of the Eluvian she is no longer attempting to manipulate the PC, since she's gotten what she wants. Letting you help her in no way harms her or invalidates her plans.

But she is doing something cool, I doubt my warden has more important things to do after stopping the blight. Morrigan did help me to stop the blight after all, she went with me through all Ferelden risking her life in countless battles, if you think about it realistically she could die somwhere in the mountaints or dwarven sewers or deep roads. She has done a great deal to help stop the blight. Besides that she really became a friend so.. Sure I will let her knock herself out with her little secrets. Of course it was a bit of a dissapointment that she did not tell me everything at once, but atleast I know that my warden knows everything how it is in the long run. 

[Auintus]

Vandicus wrote...

Caring and manipulation are not mutually exclusive. It is explicit, that Morrigan was trying to manipulate the PC to achieve OGB. That she actually cares for the Warden is irrelevant to the existence of her attempted manipulation.

When stated as that, yes. She only joined the team for the purpose of preserving Urthemiel's soul. That doesn't mean that she doesn't also have a personal stake in it. And manipulation involves a degree of deception. Morrigan explains everything with regards to the Dark Ritual. She very explicitly pushes you towards agreeing, but could easily have not informed you of key features of the ritual. Instead, she was honest.

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

What the Chantry calls them really has nothing to do with it.  Banastor (if that's his name, anyway, the Scrolls), a very... enthusiastic blood mage, calls them demons as well.  I'm going based on intent, hence Justice turning into Vengence and what have you.

Andrastians tend to use the terms 'Spirits' and 'Demons' because that's what Chantry lore teachings about the denizens of the Fade, and we know from Justice that the denizens of the Fade are influenced by mortals.

BlueMagitek wrote...

Well, she is.  Her entire ploy for going is to get the soul of the Old God, and then she wants Flemeth out of the way after reading the book.  She probably does care for the PC if you go that route, but that doesn't mean she doesn't have her own motivations.

That was the original plan; that doesn't mean Morrigan doesn't care about The Warden, or that there weren't other factors involved in saving the life of someone she can care about romantically, or as a good friend.

BlueMagitek wrote...

You mean using the treaties that Flemeth preserved and gave to the Grey Wardens?  After being saved and then restored by Flemeth, who decided to send along Morrigan to not only ensure success but to save the Warden's life?   Flemeth had a very large impact in stopping the blight.

Which doesn't change the fact that Flemeth isn't the one who actively gathered the allies across Ferelden, and lead the armies in stopping the Archdemon Urthemiel and ending the Fifth Blight.

[Vandicus]

KainD wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Manipulation is done to achieve a desired goal. In the case of the Eluvian she is no longer attempting to manipulate the PC, since she's gotten what she wants. Letting you help her in no way harms her or invalidates her plans.

But she is doing something cool, I doubt my warden has more important things to do after stopping the blight. Morrigan did help me to stop the blight after all, she went with me through all Ferelden risking her life in countless battles, if you think about it realistically she could die somwhere in the mountaints or dwarven sewers or deep roads. She has done a great deal to help stop the blight. Besides that she really became a friend so.. Sure I will let her knock herself out with her little secrets. Of course it was a bit of a dissapointment that she did not tell me everything at once, but atleast I know that my warden knows everything how it is in the long run. 

The purpose of Morrigan's manipulation was to achieve OGB. You joining her in no way invalidates the success(or failure) of this action, thus the manipulation is not invalidated.

[KainD]

Vandicus wrote...

The purpose of Morrigan's manipulation was to achieve OGB. You joining her in no way invalidates the success(or failure) of this action, thus the manipulation is not invalidated.

But it's not manipulation if you have nothing against it. What's next, you are going to tell me that when my friend asks me to pick something for him at the shop it is manipulation? 

[Vandicus]

Auintus wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Caring and manipulation are not mutually exclusive. It is explicit, that Morrigan was trying to manipulate the PC to achieve OGB. That she actually cares for the Warden is irrelevant to the existence of her attempted manipulation.

When stated as that, yes. She only joined the team for the purpose of preserving Urthemiel's soul. That doesn't mean that she doesn't also have a personal stake in it. And manipulation involves a degree of deception. Morrigan explains everything with regards to the Dark Ritual. She very explicitly pushes you towards agreeing, but could easily have not informed you of key features of the ritual. Instead, she was honest.

Deception is not requisite for manipulation. Morrigan as much as states that she joins the party for the stated goal you mentioned with the intent of getting close enough to the PC so as to convince them to execute the ritual. Since deception as to the nature of the ritual serves no purpose in convincing the PC to execute it, especially with the part about the PC being able to live if the ritual is executed, no deception is committed. Through all the journey up until this important moment, the Dark Ritual is not revealed in order to amplify the pressure of contemplating death at this very last moment. Given days or weeks of time to consider this option is very different from being presented a last second life-line.

[Shadow Fox]

DKJaigen wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

Dude - justify it however you want.

Becoming allies with something called Wrath or Pride or Sloth for power is a pitiful act.

You allowed a creature that killed dozens of people in Redcliff - and tortured dozens more - and threatened to kill even dozens more... and possessed a child... go, so you could learn some spells.

It's pitiful.

If you say so. But as a grey warden im not their to safe a bunch of people. Your only concern should be the blight and the blight alone. 

Except some Grey Wardens have lines they won't cross like Alistair and as much as I hate him Anders  and not one of the Wardens was thrilled that you spared the Architect despite the potenial to stop the blight from happening again

Making deals with demons or causing unnecessacary suffering for personal power happens to be my Warden's.

And you're aware the Wardens are on thin ice with the Ferelden populance right? I don't see how causing or ignoring the suffering of countless people will make your Warden's job easier when the entire country hates them.

[Vandicus]

KainD wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

The purpose of Morrigan's manipulation was to achieve OGB. You joining her in no way invalidates the success(or failure) of this action, thus the manipulation is not invalidated.

But it's not manipulation if you have nothing against it. What's next, you are going to tell me that when my friend asks me to pick something for him at the shop it is manipulation? 

If your friend becomes your friend for the purpose of having you pick up something for him at the shop or to perform some other specific action then it is an act of manipulation. Morrigan makes her intent explicit. Saying she's not attempting to manipulate the PC when she admits it, is nonsensical. 

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

KainD wrote...

But it's not manipulation if you have nothing against it. What's next, you are going to tell me that when my friend asks me to pick something for him at the shop it is manipulation? 

If your friend becomes your friend for the purpose of having you pick up something for him at the shop or to perform some other specific action then it is an act of manipulation. Morrigan makes her intent explicit. Saying she's not attempting to manipulate the PC when she admits it, is nonsensical. 

Morrigan doesn't become the friend of The Warden for the purpose of the OGB; you're basically tossing aside the character development with the character and the interactions with The Warden in order to paint her as a one-dimensional character.

[KainD]

Vandicus wrote...

If your friend becomes your friend for the purpose of having you pick up something for him at the shop or to perform some other specific action then it is an act of manipulation. Morrigan makes her intent explicit. Saying she's not attempting to manipulate the PC when she admits it, is nonsensical. 

Morrigan didn't even try to become my friend. I just happen to like her as a person. It is way too easy to not like her and deny her the ritual. 

[The Hierophant]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

KainD wrote...

But it's not manipulation if you have nothing against it. What's next, you are going to tell me that when my friend asks me to pick something for him at the shop it is manipulation? 

If your friend becomes your friend for the purpose of having you pick up something for him at the shop or to perform some other specific action then it is an act of manipulation. Morrigan makes her intent explicit. Saying she's not attempting to manipulate the PC when she admits it, is nonsensical. 

Morrigan doesn't become the friend of The Warden for the purpose of the OGB; you're basically tossing aside the character development with the character and the interactions with The Warden in order to paint her as a one-dimensional character.

Isn't the OGB her initial objective to begin with, even though it's possible for her to show affection for the warden while still attempting to complete her objective?

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

KainD wrote...

But it's not manipulation if you have nothing against it. What's next, you are going to tell me that when my friend asks me to pick something for him at the shop it is manipulation? 

If your friend becomes your friend for the purpose of having you pick up something for him at the shop or to perform some other specific action then it is an act of manipulation. Morrigan makes her intent explicit. Saying she's not attempting to manipulate the PC when she admits it, is nonsensical. 

Morrigan doesn't become the friend of The Warden for the purpose of the OGB; you're basically tossing aside the character development with the character and the interactions with The Warden in order to paint her as a one-dimensional character.

You persist on making incorrect statements or claiming that your opponents say things that they did not in order to form some semblence of a reasonable argument.

Morrigan joins the party to achieve one goal, OGB. Yes or no?

Does having a goal or ulterior motive somehow eliminate character development? You say that it does(per normal logical argument, since I did not maintain that Morrigan possessing a ulterior motive eliminates character development, only that she did possess a ulterior motive, you have equated having a ulterior motive to eliminating character development in your rebuttal). I did not maintain this position. I merely maintained the existence of a ulterior motive.

The only reason friendship came into the equation was because of KainD's analogy, which I ran with. I did not state that Morrigan does not grow to care for the PC, nor do I state that she doesn't appear to question her previous worldview. 

[Terrorize69]

You should all be thankful there are no Orlesian blood mages.. Well yet..