2177 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

The Hierophant wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Morrigan doesn't become the friend of The Warden for the purpose of the OGB; you're basically tossing aside the character development with the character and the interactions with The Warden in order to paint her as a one-dimensional character. 

Isn't the OGB her initial objective to begin with, even though it's possible for her to show affection for the warden while still attempting to complete her objective? 

Which is why Morrigan is sent to travel with The Warden by Flemeth; it isn't the reason behind the two possibly becoming good friends, or lovers.

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Morrigan doesn't become the friend of The Warden for the purpose of the OGB; you're basically tossing aside the character development with the character and the interactions with The Warden in order to paint her as a one-dimensional character. 

Isn't the OGB her initial objective to begin with, even though it's possible for her to show affection for the warden while still attempting to complete her objective? 

Which is why Morrigan is sent to travel with The Warden by Flemeth; it isn't the reason behind the two possibly becoming good friends, or lovers.

I have not maintained that it is the reason behind their friendship.

Morrigan clearly manipulates the Warden and as much as admits so, in her timing of the revelation of the Dark Ritual. She does not reveal it earlier because it would lose persuasive value(this is an example of manipulating circumstances to achieve a desired result).

That does not say that her intent is harmful to the Warden, or that this somehow invalidates caring for the Warden.

Similarly, a person might withhold bad news from a friend for a time if something similarly bad has happened just recently, in order to reduce the chances of that friend becoming depressed. This is an act of manipulating a person's emotions. It does not indicate a lack of concern or friendship.

[Medhia Nox]

And yet - if you don't "obey" Morrigan... she hates you more and more. Some "friend".

Now - this is inherent in the Approval/Disapproval system... but Sten, for example, will be your friend even if you disagree with him (sometimes "especially" if you disagree with him).

If you disapprove of Morrigan's actions she just gets ****ier and ****ier - she's THE self-serving craven survivalist and even she doesn't seem to ever become a blood mage outside of the PC's choice for her to be so. I despise her - and there's no love lost in my Warden's enmity with her.

[Shadow Fox]

Terrorize69 wrote...

You should all be thankful there are no Orlesian blood mages.. Well yet..

My Warden Commander's a Blood Mage....

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

If your friend becomes your friend for the purpose of having you pick up something for him at the shop or to perform some other specific action then it is an act of manipulation. Morrigan makes her intent explicit. Saying she's not attempting to manipulate the PC when she admits it, is nonsensical. 

Morrigan doesn't become the friend of The Warden for the purpose of the OGB; you're basically tossing aside the character development with the character and the interactions with The Warden in order to paint her as a one-dimensional character. 

You persist on making incorrect statements or claiming that your opponents say things that they did not in order to form some semblence of a reasonable argument.

Morrigan joins the party to achieve one goal, OGB. Yes or no?

Morrigan travelling with The Warden =/= their friendship or romance.

Also, Morrigan's initial point of view comes from Flemeth's teachings, and she advocates certain positions during the Fifth Blight because she believes The Warden should empower himself against the coming Blight that he must face. Arguing her opinion does not mean she is trying to manipulate The Warden. You seem to use the term 'manipulate' in very broad strokes.

Vandicus wrote...

Does having a goal or ulterior motive somehow eliminate character development? You say that it does(per normal logical argument, since I did not maintain that Morrigan possessing a ulterior motive eliminates character development, only that she did possess a ulterior motive, you have equated having a ulterior motive to eliminating character development in your rebuttal). I did not maintain this position. I merely maintained the existence of a ulterior motive.

The only reason friendship came into the equation was because of KainD's analogy, which I ran with. I did not state that Morrigan does not grow to care for the PC, nor do I state that she doesn't appear to question her previous worldview. 

You stated, "If your friend becomes your friend for the purpose of having you pick up something for him at the shop or to perform some other specific action then it is an act of manipulation." I was responded to this statement in my response to you. Morrigan travels with The Warden because the OGB is part of Flemeth's plan to begin with, but their friendship (or their romance) is seperate from that.

Based on comments from the developers and the dialogue from Morrigan, we know she thought the Orlesian Wardens would have come to Ferelden in time to face the Archdemon, so the OGB wouldn't have even been a factor; this clearly wasn't the situation, since the active Wardens in Ferelden are limited to three individuals: Ridoran, Alistair/Loghain, and The Warden.

[Medhia Nox]

@LobselVith8: When you ask Flemeth to teach you her magic... she states pretty clearly that "personal" power is pointless in your task.

[Terrorize69]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

You should all be thankful there are no Orlesian blood mages.. Well yet..

My Warden Commander's a Blood Mage....

Had no VA so that's ok

[LobselVith8]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@LobselVith8: When you ask Flemeth to teach you her magic... she states pretty clearly that "personal" power is pointless in your task.

I think you're confusing Flemeth pointing out that no individual person has enough power to stop the Blight on their own, and that it's the fact that The Warden and Alistair can rally different armies together with the treaties that they have the ability to stop the Blight.

[The Hierophant]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Isn't the OGB her initial objective to begin with, even though it's possible for her to show affection for the warden while still attempting to complete her objective? 

Which is why Morrigan is sent to travel with The Warden by Flemeth; it isn't the reason behind the two possibly becoming good friends, or lovers.

Thanks for the clarification. 

@Terroriz69 - l would love them if they kindnap your LI, tie them to a train track, twirl their mustaches, and cackle as you try to save them from an oncoming train.

[DKJaigen]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

Dude - justify it however you want.

Becoming allies with something called Wrath or Pride or Sloth for power is a pitiful act.

You allowed a creature that killed dozens of people in Redcliff - and tortured dozens more - and threatened to kill even dozens more... and possessed a child... go, so you could learn some spells.

It's pitiful.

If you say so. But as a grey warden im not their to safe a bunch of people. Your only concern should be the blight and the blight alone. 

Except some Grey Wardens have lines they won't cross like Alistair and as much as I hate him Anders  and not one of the Wardens was thrilled that you spared the Architect despite the potenial to stop the blight from happening again

Making deals with demons or causing unnecessacary suffering for personal power happens to be my Warden's.

And you're aware the Wardens are on thin ice with the Ferelden populance right? I don't see how causing or ignoring the suffering of countless people will make your Warden's job easier when the entire country hates them.

Considering that if you spared Avernus his research and actions will be known to grey warden high command and yet allow him to continue, you really have to tell me what lines the grey wardens are not willing to cross. And if you have not talked Riordan i suggest you do it again because basically the grey wardens have said : **** fereldan let the blight come to orlais we deal with the archdemon then. Not sure what your getting at with the architect

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

If your friend becomes your friend for the purpose of having you pick up something for him at the shop or to perform some other specific action then it is an act of manipulation. Morrigan makes her intent explicit. Saying she's not attempting to manipulate the PC when she admits it, is nonsensical. 

Morrigan doesn't become the friend of The Warden for the purpose of the OGB; you're basically tossing aside the character development with the character and the interactions with The Warden in order to paint her as a one-dimensional character. 

You persist on making incorrect statements or claiming that your opponents say things that they did not in order to form some semblence of a reasonable argument.

Morrigan joins the party to achieve one goal, OGB. Yes or no?

Morrigan travelling with The Warden =/= their friendship or romance.

Also, Morrigan's initial point of view comes from Flemeth's teachings, and she advocates certain positions during the Fifth Blight because she believes The Warden should empower himself against the coming Blight that he must face. Arguing her opinion does not mean she is trying to manipulate The Warden. You seem to use the term 'manipulate' in very broad strokes.

Vandicus wrote...

Does having a goal or ulterior motive somehow eliminate character development? You say that it does(per normal logical argument, since I did not maintain that Morrigan possessing a ulterior motive eliminates character development, only that she did possess a ulterior motive, you have equated having a ulterior motive to eliminating character development in your rebuttal). I did not maintain this position. I merely maintained the existence of a ulterior motive.

The only reason friendship came into the equation was because of KainD's analogy, which I ran with. I did not state that Morrigan does not grow to care for the PC, nor do I state that she doesn't appear to question her previous worldview. 

You stated, "If your friend becomes your friend for the purpose of having you pick up something for him at the shop or to perform some other specific action then it is an act of manipulation." I was responded to this statement in my response to you. Morrigan travels with The Warden because the OGB is part of Flemeth's plan to begin with, but their friendship (or their romance) is seperate from that.

Based on comments from the developers and the dialogue from Morrigan, we know she thought the Orlesian Wardens would have come to Ferelden in time to face the Archdemon, so the OGB wouldn't have even been a factor; this clearly wasn't the situation, since the active Wardens in Ferelden are limited to three individuals: Ridoran, Alistair/Loghain, and The Warden.

Yeah I've made her manipulation clear multiple times, and it has nothing to do with friendship or romance.

You seem to use the term manipulate in very limited Hollywood cackling villain strokes.

My statement there is a correction to KainD's analogy. A request is not manipulation. An action taken to achieve a certain result is manipulation.

So Morrigan essentially never intended to reveal the OGB and joined the party to get close to the Archdemon. Plan A(which still constitutes manipulation btw).

When it became clear that the party was the ones who'd have to beat the Archdemon, she came up with Plan B, only revealing the information at the Dark Ritual at such a time as to maximize her chances of convincing the Warden. That is an act of manipulation.

[KainD]

@Vandicus

The only problem I have with that term is, that when I hear the word "manipulation" it means that it is something that I wouldn't have done myself. But the ritual is in my own interests, and that is why I believe there is no manipulation.

Morrigan doesn't need to convince me to do it, I am not against it in the first place.

[Medhia Nox]

@LobselVith8: I'm not confused at all. She sneers at your craven attempt to get he to teach you - and lectures you about personal power vs. the strength the treaties can amass.

Which kinda punches a hole in the: "I need blood magic because it's the only way to defeat the archdemon."

If the genre's ubermage says: "Yeah, that's petty." even if it's not specifically about blood magic. Then you can safely bet that going for the power hungry mage is only self-serving and not what Ferelden or Thedas "really need".

I wouldn't care if people called it what it is... a play for power for self-interest.

Doesn't mean my mage PC won't crush it whenever he sees it - but at least he'd respect the blood mage who was honest about his intentions before he killed him.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 19 octobre 2012 - 06:44 .

[Terrorize69]

The Hierophant wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Isn't the OGB her initial objective to begin with, even though it's possible for her to show affection for the warden while still attempting to complete her objective? 

Which is why Morrigan is sent to travel with The Warden by Flemeth; it isn't the reason behind the two possibly becoming good friends, or lovers.

Thanks for the clarification. 

@Terroriz69 - l would love them if they kindnap your LI, tie them to a train track, twirl their mustaches, and cackle as you try to save them from an oncoming train.

Ugh and turn into a silent movie for 5min? All black and white slides with no VAs and lots of text. With a non stop orlesian monologue, being all poetic about blood magic and using ze word ze over and over..

Think I'd change my mind about blood magic not being evil.

[KainD]

@Medhia Nox

My pc learns blood magic for personal power yes, but let me be clear: For personal power, and no for power over other people. Power for knowledge, for possibilities, for freedom. Not power for wealth and influence.

[Shadow Fox]

DKJaigen wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

Dude - justify it however you want.

Becoming allies with something called Wrath or Pride or Sloth for power is a pitiful act.

You allowed a creature that killed dozens of people in Redcliff - and tortured dozens more - and threatened to kill even dozens more... and possessed a child... go, so you could learn some spells.

It's pitiful.

If you say so. But as a grey warden im not their to safe a bunch of people. Your only concern should be the blight and the blight alone. 

Except some Grey Wardens have lines they won't cross like Alistair and as much as I hate him Anders  and not one of the Wardens was thrilled that you spared the Architect despite the potenial to stop the blight from happening again

Making deals with demons or causing unnecessacary suffering for personal power happens to be my Warden's.

And you're aware the Wardens are on thin ice with the Ferelden populance right? I don't see how causing or ignoring the suffering of countless people will make your Warden's job easier when the entire country hates them.

Considering that if you spared Avernus his research and actions will be known to grey warden high command and yet allow him to continue, you really have to tell me what lines the grey wardens are not willing to cross. And if you have not talked Riordan i suggest you do it again because basically the grey wardens have said : **** fereldan let the blight come to orlais we deal with the archdemon then. Not sure what your getting at with the architect

I said some Wardens as Wardens are people with vastly different morals even Sophia Dryden had her limits despite leting Avernus tear the veil wide open,No he tells you that the Wardens only sent him because they don't want to spark a war with Ferelden by sending an army because it would make dealing with the blight harder.

The Wardens panic and pretty much storm the Deep Roads to kill him when they hear you let the Architect live despite it signifigantly decreasing the chances of another blight and in 2 they're still uneasy about it.

[The Hierophant]

Terrorize69 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Isn't the OGB her initial objective to begin with, even though it's possible for her to show affection for the warden while still attempting to complete her objective? 

Which is why Morrigan is sent to travel with The Warden by Flemeth; it isn't the reason behind the two possibly becoming good friends, or lovers.

Thanks for the clarification. 

@Terroriz69 - l would love them if they kindnap your LI, tie them to a train track, twirl their mustaches, and cackle as you try to save them from an oncoming train.

Ugh and turn into a silent movie for 5min? All black and white slides with no VAs and lots of text. With a non stop orlesian monologue, being all poetic about blood magic and using ze word ze over and over..

Think I'd change my mind about blood magic not being evil.

The above would make it GOTY.

[The Hierophant]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

I said some Wardens as Wardens are people with vastly different morals even Sophia Dryden had her limits despite leting Avernus tear the veil wide open,No he tells you that the Wardens only sent him because they don't want to spark a war with Ferelden by sending an army because it would make dealing with the blight harder.

The Wardens panic and pretty much storm the Deep Roads to kill him when they hear you let the Architect live despite it signifigantly decreasing the chances of another blight and in 2 they're still uneasy about it.

The problem i see with the Architect's plan is that they will have to bleed an untold amount of Grey Wardens dry just to make non song hearing sentient darkspawn who still carry a plague that is potent enough to warp inanimate objects.

[LobselVith8]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Which kinda punches a hole in the: "I need blood magic because it's the only way to defeat the archdemon."

I don't recall anyone making this argument. It's addressed that blood magic can give Grey Warden mages an important edge against the darkspawn, which is why it isn't prohibited by the order.

[Shadow Fox]

The Hierophant wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

I said some Wardens as Wardens are people with vastly different morals even Sophia Dryden had her limits despite leting Avernus tear the veil wide open,No he tells you that the Wardens only sent him because they don't want to spark a war with Ferelden by sending an army because it would make dealing with the blight harder.

The Wardens panic and pretty much storm the Deep Roads to kill him when they hear you let the Architect live despite it signifigantly decreasing the chances of another blight and in 2 they're still uneasy about it.

The problem i see with the Architect's plan is that they will have to bleed an untold amount of Grey Wardens dry just to make non song hearing sentient darkspawn who still carry a plague that is potent enough to warp inanimate objects.

Yet the Wardens as a whole have no issue with conscripting anyone into dying a slow painful death*if they're lucky that is* or Avernus torturing people in the name of research.

And I'm going by the epilouge killing the Architect significally increases the liklihood of a blight wheras sparing him does the opposite.

[LobselVith8]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Yet the Wardens as a whole have no issue with conscripting anyone into dying a slow painful death*if they're lucky that is* or Avernus torturing people in the name of research.

And I'm going by the epilouge killing the Architect significally increases the liklihood of a blight wheras sparing him does the opposite. 

The taint is necessary in order to detect the darkspawn, and defeat the Archdemon. Avernus' research can give the Wardens a better understanding of utilizing the taint, in order to achieve victory against the greatest threat that Thedas has ever faced: the darkspawn. Darkspawn literally destroy the enviornment and seek to defeat all the sentient races of Thedas. They are the enemy. If The Warden spares the Architect, we know the Deep Roads become quiet for a short period of time; the Architect making darkspawn sentient and independent doesn't mean there won't be any future Blights, and giving such a dangerous enemy intelligence can be detrimental to all life on Thedas. Considering how 'awakened' darkspawn were kidnapping women to turn them into Broodmothers and murdering people in Amaranthine (including the Architect's own 'awakened' darkspawn The Witherend, who launched a sneak attack against Vigil's Keep - as the survivors attest to despite the Architect's claims to the contrary), I don't see why the Architect should be trusted.

Darkspawn are dangerous during the Blight precisely because they are intelligent via the Archdemon controlling them remotely, but making the darkspawn permanently intelligent is quite dangerous. What happens when 'awakened' darkspawn want to rule the surface? What happens if they want surface women to turn them into Broodmothers, creating more darskpawn? The darkspawn already outnumber the people living on the surface, and the dwarves barely survived the onslaught of the darkspawn forces, who have claimed all but two of the dwarven kingdoms. Letting the Architect live might cause much more serious problems for the dwarven kingdoms and the surface world, despite the short period of rest for the Deep Roads that decision provides.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 19 octobre 2012 - 08:16 .

[The Hierophant]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

I said some Wardens as Wardens are people with vastly different morals even Sophia Dryden had her limits despite leting Avernus tear the veil wide open,No he tells you that the Wardens only sent him because they don't want to spark a war with Ferelden by sending an army because it would make dealing with the blight harder.

The Wardens panic and pretty much storm the Deep Roads to kill him when they hear you let the Architect live despite it signifigantly decreasing the chances of another blight and in 2 they're still uneasy about it.

The problem i see with the Architect's plan is that they will have to bleed an untold amount of Grey Wardens dry just to make non song hearing sentient darkspawn who still carry a plague that is potent enough to warp inanimate objects.

Yet the Wardens as a whole have no issue with conscripting anyone into dying a slow painful death*if they're lucky that is* or Avernus torturing people in the name of research.

And I'm going by the epilouge killing the Architect significally increases the liklihood of a blight wheras sparing him does the opposite.

The Wardens need soldiers to combat the darkspawn plague until it's completely eradicated, and without them the humans, dwarves, and elves of Thedas would be extinct. The Archtect was the catalyst for the Fifth Blight as he was the one that tainted Urthmiel, and him potentially conducting another experiment on the surviving Old Gods is not good.

[BlueMagitek]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Andrastians tend to use the terms 'Spirits' and 'Demons' because that's what Chantry lore teachings about the denizens of the Fade, and we know from Justice that the denizens of the Fade are influenced by mortals.

That was the original plan; that doesn't mean Morrigan doesn't care about The Warden, or that there weren't other factors involved in saving the life of someone she can care about romantically, or as a good friend.

Which doesn't change the fact that Flemeth isn't the one who actively gathered the allies across Ferelden, and lead the armies in stopping the Archdemon Urthemiel and ending the Fifth Blight.

And so does the crazy, powerful bloodmage Banastor. =D

You can care about someone and still manipulate them.  She still has her motives, perhaps she has a genuine want to save the Warden, but her original motives are still there.

She had someone do that for her, providing that person everything they needed to accomplish the task, actually. 

[Shadow Fox]

The Hierophant wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

I said some Wardens as Wardens are people with vastly different morals even Sophia Dryden had her limits despite leting Avernus tear the veil wide open,No he tells you that the Wardens only sent him because they don't want to spark a war with Ferelden by sending an army because it would make dealing with the blight harder.

The Wardens panic and pretty much storm the Deep Roads to kill him when they hear you let the Architect live despite it signifigantly decreasing the chances of another blight and in 2 they're still uneasy about it.

The problem i see with the Architect's plan is that they will have to bleed an untold amount of Grey Wardens dry just to make non song hearing sentient darkspawn who still carry a plague that is potent enough to warp inanimate objects.

Yet the Wardens as a whole have no issue with conscripting anyone into dying a slow painful death*if they're lucky that is* or Avernus torturing people in the name of research.

And I'm going by the epilouge killing the Architect significally increases the liklihood of a blight wheras sparing him does the opposite.

The Wardens need soldiers to combat the darkspawn plague until it's completely eradicated, and without them the humans, dwarves, and elves of Thedas would be extinct. The Archtect was the catalyst for the Fifth Blight as he was the one that tainted Urthmiel, and him potentially conducting another experiment on the surviving Old Gods is not good.

True all I'm saying is if the Wardens don't want to take the risk of trusting a darkspawn why would they approve of someone trusting a demon to gain power?

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Andrastians tend to use the terms 'Spirits' and 'Demons' because that's what Chantry lore teachings about the denizens of the Fade, and we know from Justice that the denizens of the Fade are influenced by mortals.

That was the original plan; that doesn't mean Morrigan doesn't care about The Warden, or that there weren't other factors involved in saving the life of someone she can care about romantically, or as a good friend.

Which doesn't change the fact that Flemeth isn't the one who actively gathered the allies across Ferelden, and lead the armies in stopping the Archdemon Urthemiel and ending the Fifth Blight.

And so does the crazy, powerful bloodmage Banastor. =D

Which means what, exactly?

BlueMagitek wrote...

You can care about someone and still manipulate them.  She still has her motives, perhaps she has a genuine want to save the Warden, but her original motives are still there.

You mean Morrigan can try to persuade The Warden to take a particular course of action, based on her opinion of certain situations?

BlueMagitek wrote...

She had someone do that for her, providing that person everything they needed to accomplish the task, actually.  

Which doesn't change the fact that Flemeth wasn't the one who was gathering allies, resolving disputes, and dealing with the civil war - it was The Warden and his assembled crew.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 19 octobre 2012 - 08:10 .