2177 réponses à ce sujet

[KainD]

Vit246 wrote...

You'll burn the obviously evil mages, right? And leave the law-abiding ones alone?

Not the law-abiding ones, but the ones that are not obviously evil. Cause some laws are bad.
But yeah.

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Go read the Scrolls of Banastor; he has no love for the Chantry and still calls the ones that he makes pacts with demons.

You seem to miss the point of Spirits and Demons being tied to Andrastian religious teachings, which is why the Dalish don't share their views. The dialogue between Anders and Merrill addresses this.

BlueMagitek wrote...

Of course, I'm sorry.  She only admits that she's quite capable of manipulation in front of you, and then she tries to get you to eliminate Flemeth and give her the soul of an old god.  There is no connection between any of these.   

You distrust Morrigan; I don't. Your opinion of the story is merely that.

BlueMagitek wrote...

Even Flemeth can only do so much against the power of the PC.

The dichotomy between a world with The Warden, and a world without The Warden. I particularly love the idea of the Hero of Ferelden from the Circle asking for his people to be given their autonomy; a reward for his efforts against the Blight.

[KainD]

@BlueMagitek

Yes, I take Morrigan's word for it, I have no reason not to.

One thing is to keep secrets, another is no actually ask me to ACT upon who knows what. If they are asking for my help they better tell me what the hell I am doing.

Anders didn't commit an act of terrorism he committed an act of war.

I didn't say I don't like trusting people, I said that I don't like Alistar as a person, as a whole, the fact that he is honest thought is a very positive thing about him.

[BlueMagitek]

LobselVith8 wrote...

You seem to miss the point of Spirits and Demons being tied to Andrastian religious teachings, which is why the Dalish don't share their views. The dialogue between Anders and Merrill addresses this.

You distrust Morrigan; I don't. Your opinion of the story is merely that.

The dichotomy between a world with The Warden, and a world without The Warden. I particularly love the idea of the Hero of Ferelden from the Circle asking for his people to be given their autonomy; a reward for his efforts against the Blight.

I'm aware that the Dalish view them differently.  I fail to see how that addresses what I said earlier.

You mean that I am wary of the apostate with the abomination mother (who seems to have the gift of foresight, if what she said to Jowry was any indication) who continues to torment my fellow Grey Warden?  The one who, in front of Suranna, that the Circle mages are all weak and deserve to die?  The one who wants to leave the towne of Redcliffe to stand on its own against a horde of undead?  The one who approves of letting a desire demon possess a little girl?  No, you're right, she is the most trustworthy of your companions.  Even Dog's loyalty is naught in comparison. 

Fereldan already gave autonomy to mages that proved themselves to the King (see, Shale's mission).  It didn't suggest any elimination of the Circle system or removal of Gregoire.  For myself, I much preferred Anora granting Mahariel's people a Dales of their own over his corpse.

KainD wrote...

@BlueMagitek

Yes, I take Morrigan's word for it, I have no reason not to.

One
thing is to keep secrets, another is no actually ask me to ACT upon who
knows what. If they are asking for my help they better tell me what the
hell I am doing.

Anders didn't commit an act of terrorism he committed an act of war.

I
didn't say I don't like trusting people, I said that I don't like
Alistar as a person, as a whole, the fact that he is honest thought is a
very positive thing about him.

So... your reasoning is false, then?  Flemeth didn't confirm that she would kill her, or even hint at it, which you said was why you killed her.

Jowan did tell you what he was doing; breaking out.  Being a blood mage doesn't really have anything to do with that information.  He does lie, as he should, if you ask him about it. 

This isn't the topic for this, but he blew up a church.

You asked Bioware for someone who confided in you, they already have. 

[Vit246]

BlueMagitek wrote...
This isn't the topic for this, but he blew up a church.

Yes, this isn't the topic for this, but I'll say something about it anyway and try to keep it short.

Do not equate the Chantry organization with real-world modern / civilian / local / churches. They're simply too different from each other.

EDIT: The implication that Anders destroyed a "church" in the way that you probably mean it, is at best, inaccurate.

Modifié par Vit246, 20 octobre 2012 - 07:59 .

[KainD]

BlueMagitek wrote...

So... your reasoning is false, then?  Flemeth didn't confirm that she would kill her, or even hint at it, which you said was why you killed her.

Jowan did tell you what he was doing; breaking out.  Being a blood mage doesn't really have anything to do with that information.  He does lie, as he should, if you ask him about it. 

This isn't the topic for this, but he blew up a church.

You asked Bioware for someone who confided in you, they already have. 

My reasoning is she didn't deny anything i have said to her. She doesn't even think it is worth discussing, well it was worth for me, so..

Lies as he should? No, you shouldn't lie to your friend when you are asking for their help. He also shouldn't have lied to Lily, that's not a healthy relationship. 

It's not really a church. 

kk.

[BlueMagitek]

KainD wrote...

My reasoning is she didn't deny anything i have said to her. She doesn't even think it is worth discussing, well it was worth for me, so..

Lies as he should? No, you shouldn't lie to your friend when you are asking for their help. He also shouldn't have lied to Lily, that's not a healthy relationship. 

It's not really a church. 

kk.

It's not worth discussing. If you came to me, claiming that I was going to inhabit someone else's body when it's obvious that you don't know the truth, I'd probably laugh it off as well.  

You don't go up announcing that you're a blood mage to anyone.  Because it's something of a cardinal sin to do in a Chantry run Circle.  He shouldn't have even been in a relationship with Lily.

A place of worship, then.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Vit246 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...
This isn't the topic for this, but he blew up a church.

Yes, this isn't the topic for this, but I'll say something about it anyway and try to keep it short.

Do not equate the Chantry organization with real-world modern / civilian / local / churches. They're simply too different from each other.

I wish people would stop raising this point.

They are modeled after medieval churches. So of course they're different from the modern ones: the Church's role has changed over the centuries, and the people running them (there are now several) have mellowed out massively. (If only because they had to.)

The Medieval Catholic Church was about the same as the Chantry in role, scope, and power, minus all the obvious stuff that cannot happen except in a fantasy setting. (The Tevinter Chantry seems to be based on the schism between the Catholic and Orthodox churches, though I don't think Orthodoxy was created simply to get around certain Catholic teachings.)

Edit: Also, totally not the topic for this. Not that we were on topic anyway.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 20 octobre 2012 - 01:41 .

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

You seem to miss the point of Spirits and Demons being tied to Andrastian religious teachings, which is why the Dalish don't share their views. The dialogue between Anders and Merrill addresses this.

Yup. The different categories the spirits of the Fade fall into is primarily psychological, but the Chantry's story for how they came to embody those different parts of the psyche is definitely a religious one.

[KainD]

BlueMagitek wrote...

It's not worth discussing. If you came to me, claiming that I was going to inhabit someone else's body when it's obvious that you don't know the truth, I'd probably laugh it off as well.  

You don't go up announcing that you're a blood mage to anyone.  Because it's something of a cardinal sin to do in a Chantry run Circle.  He shouldn't have even been in a relationship with Lily.

A place of worship, then.

So you wouldn't care at all for the fact that you are going to die in a few moments? Or atleast there is a huge possibility.

Well of course, if Jowan can't even tell Lily that he is a blood mage, he shouldn't be in a relationship with her. 

That place of worship contained mage libertarians worst enemies. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

KainD wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

It's not worth discussing. If you came to me, claiming that I was going to inhabit someone else's body when it's obvious that you don't know the truth, I'd probably laugh it off as well.  

You don't go up announcing that you're a blood mage to anyone.  Because it's something of a cardinal sin to do in a Chantry run Circle.  He shouldn't have even been in a relationship with Lily.

A place of worship, then.

So you wouldn't care at all for the fact that you are going to die in a few moments? Or atleast there is a huge possibility.

Not if you're Flemeth. She can survive that. If anything, I think she found this whole thing amusing, sort of like the way we view Thedas only she doesn't know Bioware designed it.

Well of course, if Jowan can't even tell Lily that he is a blood mage, he shouldn't be in a relationship with her. 

Finally, something the entire forum can agree on. I can't remember the last time this happened.

That place of worship contained mage libertarians worst enemies. 

It didn't, actually. One of those enemies watched it explode. Some of the others were featured in Asunder. One of the people who died actually wanted to try and smooth things over, without killing anyone. That is in fact why she died, since Anders wanted to break the rut that social progress was in with a war.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 20 octobre 2012 - 02:43 .

[BlueMagitek]

KainD wrote...

So you wouldn't care at all for the fact that you are going to die in a few moments? Or atleast there is a huge possibility.

Well of course, if Jowan can't even tell Lily that he is a blood mage, he shouldn't be in a relationship with her. 

That place of worship contained mage libertarians worst enemies.

Death?  The Warden putting down Flemeth is about the same odds as the Warden putting down me, so I think I'd find the entire thing amusing.

Well, there's that too.

Uh, you mean the Grand Cleric who was keeping a lid on the situation between the Templar and Mages?  That, and all the worshipers.  Chanters.  Guys coming by the Chanters board to pick out a quest or two. 

[KainD]

BlueMagitek wrote...
Death?  The Warden putting down Flemeth is about the same odds as the Warden putting down me, so I think I'd find the entire thing amusing.

Well, there's that too.

Uh, you mean the Grand Cleric who was keeping a lid on the situation between the Templar and Mages?  That, and all the worshipers.  Chanters.  Guys coming by the Chanters board to pick out a quest or two. 

Well yeah, she survives no matter what, so there is no problem with that then anyway. 

Yes I mean Grand Cleric and the chanters, and the guys who supported the chantry. 

[BlueMagitek]

^ That's using knowledge that your character wouldn't have and can't make decisions based on.

Not going there.

----

I would like to reiterate that I believe that taking the blood magic specialization should result in, at the very least, concerned comments from the cast that would know you've taken it. If there is a mind control spell available, if it is used, it should result in some schism within the party on some level.

However, Blood Magic should give a large boost to your magic stat, in addition to all of the other abilities, to help compensate for being such a fracture among the party.

[Terrorize69]

Would be nice if they showed a positive side to blood magic like giving up your own blood/health to heal people.

[BlueMagitek]

Terrorize69 wrote...

Would be nice if they showed a positive side to blood magic like giving up your own blood/health to heal people.

If you're going to make a deal with a spirit of sorts anyway and want to help people, why not go spirit healer?  That's a much larger boost to your healing spells than blood magic. 

Yes, blood magic does have some positive use, but as I believe I've said before, it's a very large taboo.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You seem to miss the point of Spirits and Demons being tied to Andrastian religious teachings, which is why the Dalish don't share their views. The dialogue between Anders and Merrill addresses this.

Yup. The different categories the spirits of the Fade fall into is primarily psychological, but the Chantry's story for how they came to embody those different parts of the psyche is definitely a religious one.

DG himself said there was a clear and difinite difference between spirits and demons. So while the Chantry's stories about how and why these two different "races" exist, is largely religious inspired fairy tales, the Dalish view of it, is just downright wrong.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

And yet, it works when predicting Justice's actions. "There's no such thing as a good spirit. I understood that. I just wish you had too."

[Medhia Nox]

The entities of the Fade make the distinction between Spirits and Demons... just play the Mage Origin.

Mouse calls Valor... a Spirit.

While Valor says that a demon hunts you.

And there even seems to be enmity between Spirits and Demons as Mouse (a pride demon) seems rather caustic when talking about the Valor Spirit. "Never seemed equal to its name."

So not only does he call him a spirit... but he's aware that he's "called" Valor.

=========

@BlueMagitek:  Because Blood Magic is Grimdark edgy and Spirit Healer is wussy goody goody.  

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 20 octobre 2012 - 05:48 .

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You seem to miss the point of Spirits and Demons being tied to Andrastian religious teachings, which is why the Dalish don't share their views. The dialogue between Anders and Merrill addresses this.

Yup. The different categories the spirits of the Fade fall into is primarily psychological, but the Chantry's story for how they came to embody those different parts of the psyche is definitely a religious one. 

DG himself said there was a clear and difinite difference between spirits and demons. So while the Chantry's stories about how and why these two different "races" exist, is largely religious inspired fairy tales, the Dalish view of it, is just downright wrong. 

Gaider pointed out that he was incorrectly paraphrased by the fan who bought him drinks and asked him some questions about Dragon Age (the same fan also claimed Merrill was wrong about Spirits and Demons when she made the paraphrase about Spirits and Demons).

[Medhia Nox]

@LobselVith8: So is the Mage Origin "retconned" too?

[LobselVith8]

Medhia Nox wrote...

The entities of the Fade make the distinction between Spirits and Demons... just play the Mage Origin.

Actually, Justice points out that the denizens of the Fade are heavily influenced by mortals. That's why he speaks the same language as Andrastians, it's why he has an Andrastian appearance, and why he's aware of the values and beliefs of Andrastians. Interestingly, Justice seems to be quite unfamiliar with the Dalish and the Dwarves in contrast to his knowledge about Andrastian culture.

Medhia Nox wrote...

Mouse calls Valor... a Spirit.

Valor is clearly influenced by mortals, given his appearance, and his focus on crafting human weaponry.

Medhia Nox wrote...

While Valor says that a demon hunts you.

Which makes sense, considering the plethora of Andrastians who follow the religious teachings of the Chantry of Andraste.

Medhia Nox wrote...

And there even seems to be enmity between Spirits and Demons as Mouse (a pride demon) seems rather caustic when talking about the Valor Spirit. "Never seemed equal to its name."

So not only does he call him a spirit... but he's aware that he's "called" Valor.

Which makes sense, since Justice points out that the denizens of the Fade are influenced by mortals and their dreams.

Medhia Nox wrote...

@BlueMagitek:  Because Blood Magic is Grimdark edgy and Spirit Healer is wussy goody goody. 

It might have more to do with blood magic giving a mage a powerful edge over ordinary magic, as well as being tied to the physical and being immune to the abilities of a templar.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

The entities of the Fade make the distinction between Spirits and Demons... just play the Mage Origin.

Actually, Justice points out that the denizens of the Fade are heavily influenced by mortals. That's why he speaks the same language as Andrastians, it's why he has an Andrastian appearance, and why he's aware of the values and beliefs of Andrastians. Interestingly, Justice seems to be quite unfamiliar with the Dalish and the Dwarves in contrast to his knowledge about Andrastian culture.

Dwarves don't dream and the Dalish are a small minority. He'd be more likely to come across a Dalish in the Fade than a dwarf, but not by much. So it would make sense that barely any spirits would have knowledge of Dalish culture, and basically none would know any about dwarven.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 20 octobre 2012 - 10:03 .

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
DG himself said there was a clear and difinite difference between spirits and demons. So while the Chantry's stories about how and why these two different "races" exist, is largely religious inspired fairy tales, the Dalish view of it, is just downright wrong.

Not so. David Gaider said that they are all spirits -- something Mages of the Circle and of the Dalish reiterate. The difference lies in their modus operandi, but not in them being different races. 

David Gaider wrote...

The spirits & demons thing, for instance-- I don't think I said they were fundamentally different. I believe what I said is that the possession was fundamentally different (meaning Anders' situation, in comparison to Connor's situation in DAO, which was the question).

Source

And then there's this.

David Gaider wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
Are they different because of what they feed off or do they feed off different emotions/concepts because they're different beings?

The former. Ultimately they're all spirits-- but the nature of a spirit can change. I believe Justice has quite a bit to say about this in Awakening.

He never says they're different. He says their modus operandi is different. That's not the same thing.

Along with an in-game codex penned by a Circle Mage.

Typically, we misuse the term "spirit" to refer only to the benign, or at least less malevolent, creatures of the Fade, but in truth, all the denizens of the realm beyond the Veil are spirits.

--From Beyond the Veil: Spirits and Demons, by Enchanter Mirdromel.

So no, Merrill is quite right in her belief that Demons are spirits, as she always uses the lowercase form which is an all-encompassing word. The difference between Demons and Spirits is mainly psychological -- though the Chantry wants it to have a religious difference as well, which is bad if Anders is anything to go by -- and the Dalish recognize the psychological distinction. They just choose to label all the spirits of the Fade by what they are: spirits. It's actually the safer course of action, because as Merrill tells Anders there is no such thing as a safe spirit of the Fade. They're all dangerous.

Merrill will state in the Fade when meeting Torpor -- if she's the only one -- that he is a personification of Sloth and that the PC should think active thoughts of exercise.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Dwarves don't dream

In the Fade, anyway. They dream in the sense that we the people of Earth do.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 octobre 2012 - 10:25 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Dwarves don't dream

In the Fade, anyway. They dream in the sense that we the people of Earth do.

I could have sworn Oghren said they didn't do that either.

It doesn't matter, my main point stands.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 20 octobre 2012 - 10:34 .