2177 réponses à ce sujet

[Arokel]

strive wrote...

Of course someone else made a good point that Wardens would not be necessary if not for blood magic.

That is just what the Chantry says. The only fact is blood magic is needed to create Wardens. How the Blights came to be is still unknowable.

Thanks to Corypheus we know for a fact  that Tevinter magisters did in fact breach the fade physically. 

The Enigma of Kirkwall codex entries back this up.  thousands upon thousands of slaves dissapeared from Kirkwall with no trace.  They provided the fuel for the expirments and the final ritual.  The catacombs beneath Kirkwall are filled with living and working chambers for many, many mages.  They were experimenting and studying how to breach the Fade.  We also have the shape of the city's streets.  They were designed in rune/glyph patterns.  The city itself was a massive magical amplifier.  We also know that the magisters were purposefully thinning the veil in Kirkwall.

All of this together points to the the origin of the Darkspawn as described by the Chant of Light is mostly accurate.

[Cultist]

Actually, Corypheus said that Golden City was black - and as this phrase is not clear we can assume that Golden City was already corrupt. But that's for another thread and specualation. Because without Blood Magic humanity would not rise to glory. And the fact that Grey Wardens appeared and managed to end previous Blights just proves that Blood Magic can solve problems that may occur with its use.
I.e. BM caused Blights=> BM helped to create a tool(Wardens) to fight Blights.
But in the "current" situation of Mage-templar war Blood Magic should be even more vilified as Templars and Chantry will spread anti-mage propaganda. And if player wishes to become a Blood Mage s\\he should feel the consequences of this choice in this dire times.
On the other hand - a lot of newly-freed mages would turn to BM to better protect themselves or exact vengerance upon the Templars as there's no restrictions anymore.

[Arokel]

Cultist wrote...

Actually, Corypheus said that Golden City was black - and as this phrase is not clear we can assume that Golden City was already corrupt. But that's for another thread and specualation. Because without Blood Magic humanity would not rise to glory. And the fact that Grey Wardens appeared and managed to end previous Blights just proves that Blood Magic can solve problems that may occur with its use.
I.e. BM caused Blights=> BM helped to create a tool(Wardens) to fight Blights.
But in the "current" situation of Mage-templar war Blood Magic should be even more vilified as Templars and Chantry will spread anti-mage propaganda. And if player wishes to become a Blood Mage she should feel the consequences of this choice in this dire times.
On the other hand - a lot of newly-freed mages would turn to BM to better protect themselves or exact vengerance upon the Templars as there's no restrictions anymore.

I agree with you but just to clear something I up I never mentioned the condition of the City.  I know Corypheus said it was black.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...
You have an incredibly cynical view of humans, and that is coming from someone who once believed that the best fate for the human race was complete annihilation.
"Magic shall serve that which is best in me, not that which is most base." It's always a matter of choice.

I have a very realistic view.

I wouldn't trust you with that power.
I wouldnt' trust my mother with that power.
I wouldn't trust myself with that power.
I wouldn't trust no one. Absolutely, utterly no one.
Because that is the only sane stance to have regarding such power.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You would believe I stand for whatever I make you believe I stand for.


Don't you get it?
If you trust a blood mage, you can never know if that's on your own volition or if he subtly made you trust him.
The very concept of mind control excludes trust.
Characters like Prof X from X-Men are a fairy tale.

Mind-control can be used any time, everywhere, for pretty much anything. Just go on trough your normal day and count for just how many things you could use mind control.

The temptation to use it would be immense. The tempation would be verywhere..all the time.
And only a fool belives he can resit temptation forever.

If one belives he can use such power without ever becoming corrupted by it - that's the LAST person who should get it.


A Blood Mage cannot be trusted. Ever. No exceptions.

Such bs from you again . You are a human being and as such you to have temptations. from the lowest to the highest person in our own society, to the powerful to the powerless, because its human nature. The true test is avoid it by restraining yourself. We allow all citizens enormous amount of freedom. If we cannot trust them then we should create a police state

Now i will judge you by your own standard. I dont think you should have any privliges or freedoms and your actions should be monitored 24 hours because you cannot guarantee me that you will not grab a knife and kill that nice old lady in in the street.

The BS is you.

And your stupid example only proves it.

Temptation is not equal nor is opportuntiy equal.

Yes, I can kill that only lady across the street? But why would I? What have I to gain? I can be easily detected.

But lets say I'm a blood mage. PROVE my guilt. How can you? How can you know if I manipulated someone?

That's the horror of it. It can be used for anything, leaves no proof.

Blood magic has hte biggest tempatation, is the most dangerous and is easiet to abuse.
A hunderd politicains can't come close to the level of temptation and opportuinty a single blood mage has.
Now take a look at the worlds politicians....

[Arokel]

Lets calm it down before the mods come in.

[Lotion Soronarr]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

First of all, mind control is subtle and invisible. eanign you cna gt away with pretty much anything.

It hasn't been subtle or invisible when we've encountered it. 

Ignoring for a second Hawkes magical character shields, no one in the party noticed anything untill you called for help.

[Vandicus]

Cultist wrote...

Actually, Corypheus said that Golden City was black - and as this phrase is not clear we can assume that Golden City was already corrupt.

Corypheus also said that the city was "supposed to be golden". So we know for a fact that to the Magisters it appeared Golden prior to their attempted entry. Something happened simultaneously or as a result of their entry must've changed its outside appearance to be black. The inside appearance may always have been black, that we don't have evidence on. But from the outside Corypheus informs us that it was indeed golden. The Chantry accounts are derived from Tevinter Imperium accounts, as neither Andraste nor the Chantry existed at the time of these events. Thus, if we subtract any alterations to the texts made for religious reasons, we are left with a portrayal of the events from the perspective of a Tevinter magister.

I go with the most simple theory that performing the ritual turned the city black, as Dumat really intended(my theory is that the Old Gods didn't screw up when they had the magisters invade the Golden City because they're not stupid enough to make a bonehead move, and that everything is according to their plan). 

Another theory that have arisen from Corypheus's statement is that the magisters were deceived as to the nature of the Golden City. In other words the magisters believed it to be Golden but this illusion was dropped when they arrived in person.

The last theory that I've seen that manages to avoid contradicting Corypheus' statements is that a simultaneous event caused the corruption.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Cultist wrote...

Actually, Corypheus said that Golden City was black - and as this phrase is not clear we can assume that Golden City was already corrupt. But that's for another thread and specualation. Because without Blood Magic humanity would not rise to glory. And the fact that Grey Wardens appeared and managed to end previous Blights just proves that Blood Magic can solve problems that may occur with its use.
I.e. BM caused Blights=> BM helped to create a tool(Wardens) to fight Blights.

The only price for it is MILLIONS of dead and a dark age period.. <_<

Hmm... let cause a massive global warming. I'm sure SCIENCE will be able to fix it...somehow.

And even with the Archdemons dead, the darkspawn are still there.

[Allan Schumacher]

Arokel wrote...

Lets calm it down before the mods come in.

Yes lets...

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Auintus wrote...
You have an incredibly cynical view of humans, and that is coming from someone who once believed that the best fate for the human race was complete annihilation.
"Magic shall serve that which is best in me, not that which is most base." It's always a matter of choice.

I have a very realistic view.

I wouldn't trust you with that power.
I wouldnt' trust my mother with that power.
I wouldn't trust myself with that power.
I wouldn't trust no one. Absolutely, utterly no one.
Because that is the only sane stance to have regarding such power.

Mate your saying that you lack  both disicipline and morals ? Oh and dont put anyone else on your level its insulting

Modifié par DKJaigen, 01 octobre 2012 - 08:51 .

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You would believe I stand for whatever I make you believe I stand for.


Don't you get it?
If you trust a blood mage, you can never know if that's on your own volition or if he subtly made you trust him.
The very concept of mind control excludes trust.
Characters like Prof X from X-Men are a fairy tale.

Mind-control can be used any time, everywhere, for pretty much anything. Just go on trough your normal day and count for just how many things you could use mind control.

The temptation to use it would be immense. The tempation would be verywhere..all the time.
And only a fool belives he can resit temptation forever.

If one belives he can use such power without ever becoming corrupted by it - that's the LAST person who should get it.


A Blood Mage cannot be trusted. Ever. No exceptions.

Such bs from you again . You are a human being and as such you to have temptations. from the lowest to the highest person in our own society, to the powerful to the powerless, because its human nature. The true test is avoid it by restraining yourself. We allow all citizens enormous amount of freedom. If we cannot trust them then we should create a police state

Now i will judge you by your own standard. I dont think you should have any privliges or freedoms and your actions should be monitored 24 hours because you cannot guarantee me that you will not grab a knife and kill that nice old lady in in the street.

The BS is you.

And your stupid example only proves it.

Temptation is not equal nor is opportuntiy equal.

Yes, I can kill that only lady across the street? But why would I? What have I to gain? I can be easily detected.

But lets say I'm a blood mage. PROVE my guilt. How can you? How can you know if I manipulated someone?

That's the horror of it. It can be used for anything, leaves no proof.

Blood magic has hte biggest tempatation, is the most dangerous and is easiet to abuse.
A hunderd politicains can't come close to the level of temptation and opportuinty a single blood mage has.
Now take a look at the worlds politicians....

You have still have not given any reason that you can handle your freedom. I dont know what your threshold is when it comes to temptation. But once again do not put me or anybody else on your level . You say its biggest temptation and i will say its not.

[Vandicus]

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Auintus wrote...
You have an incredibly cynical view of humans, and that is coming from someone who once believed that the best fate for the human race was complete annihilation.
"Magic shall serve that which is best in me, not that which is most base." It's always a matter of choice.

I have a very realistic view.

I wouldn't trust you with that power.
I wouldnt' trust my mother with that power.
I wouldn't trust myself with that power.
I wouldn't trust no one. Absolutely, utterly no one.
Because that is the only sane stance to have regarding such power.

So you  saying you lack both disicipline and morals ? Oh and put anyone else on your level its insulting

So you would trust other people with mind control powers. As mind control constitutes power over people's identity, body, and possessions, that means you'd be likewise willing to trust people with all of those things. 

I wouldn't. Does that mean I lack discipline or morals?

[eroeru]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

But lets say I'm a blood mage. PROVE my guilt. How can you? How can you know if I manipulated someone?

That's the horror of it. It can be used for anything, leaves no proof.

By that logic of utter fear of BM you shouldn't condemn anyone of blood magic. It could be a BM precticioner just manipluating you thinking that someone else is one.

You're speaking in the language of paranoia, imho.

[Arokel]

To get things back on topic what do you guys think about the world reacting more severely towards choosing to be a maleficar?

[Dave of Canada]

Never mind, pointless to argue.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 01 octobre 2012 - 08:52 .

[Herr Uhl]

Some more reaction from people around you would be nice, considering how reviled blood mages are.

Granted, people should react to the mere presence of a mage, considering how rare they are outside of circles.

[Arch1eviathan]

Blood benders blood mages were kind of weak in passed games. It was only useful in letting you cast spells without the cost of magic but that didn't really give me the sinister feel of being a blood mage. Actually being one was nothing like the way the were portrayed through out the series. I didn't really feel all powerful.

Modifié par Arch1eviathan, 01 octobre 2012 - 08:58 .

[Arokel]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Some more reaction from people around you would be nice, considering how reviled blood mages are.

Granted, people should react to the mere presence of a mage, considering how rare they are outside of circles.

I agree with the second part epecially.  Would be neat to see some shop owners close their door to you if you are a mage.

[Vandicus]

Arch1eviathan wrote...

Blood benders blood mages were kind of weak in passed games. It was only useful in letting you cast spells without the cost of magic but that didn't really give me the sinister feel of being a blood mage. Actually being one was nothing like the way the were portrayed through out the series. I didn't really feel all powerful.

If the blood magic specialization is to be acknowledged by in game NPC reactions(which I think it should), it should also have its benefits. Mind control is one important convo option they should have.

[DKJaigen]

Vandicus wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Auintus wrote...
You have an incredibly cynical view of humans, and that is coming from someone who once believed that the best fate for the human race was complete annihilation.
"Magic shall serve that which is best in me, not that which is most base." It's always a matter of choice.

I have a very realistic view.

I wouldn't trust you with that power.
I wouldnt' trust my mother with that power.
I wouldn't trust myself with that power.
I wouldn't trust no one. Absolutely, utterly no one.
Because that is the only sane stance to have regarding such power.

So you  saying you lack both disicipline and morals ? Oh and put anyone else on your level its insulting

So you would trust other people with mind control powers. As mind control constitutes power over people's identity, body, and possessions, that means you'd be likewise willing to trust people with all of those things. 

I wouldn't. Does that mean I lack discipline or morals?

Whatever you trust somebody or not is your concern. But if i give you this power. Do you wish to do evil or good with it? disicipline can be taught. every soldier and policemen knows this.

[Vandicus]

Arokel wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Some more reaction from people around you would be nice, considering how reviled blood mages are.

Granted, people should react to the mere presence of a mage, considering how rare they are outside of circles.

I agree with the second part epecially.  Would be neat to see some shop owners close their door to you if you are a mage.

Shop owners present a peculiar problem. Because they have shops full of cool stuff we're almost never allowed to rob them, because this would be game breaking. If they refuse access to blood mages it would make sense that the blood mages would be able to rob them, but we again encounter the whole game breaking thing.

[Arokel]

Vandicus wrote...

Arch1eviathan wrote...

Blood benders blood mages were kind of weak in passed games. It was only useful in letting you cast spells without the cost of magic but that didn't really give me the sinister feel of being a blood mage. Actually being one was nothing like the way the were portrayed through out the series. I didn't really feel all powerful.

If the blood magic specialization is to be acknowledged by in game NPC reactions(which I think it should), it should also have its benefits. Mind control is one important convo option they should have.

Definitely.  One of the good things about DA2's conversation system was how your class/personality/companions affected it.  That could be expanded upon greatly with Blood Magic options.

[Vandicus]

DKJaigen wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Auintus wrote...
You have an incredibly cynical view of humans, and that is coming from someone who once believed that the best fate for the human race was complete annihilation.
"Magic shall serve that which is best in me, not that which is most base." It's always a matter of choice.

I have a very realistic view.

I wouldn't trust you with that power.
I wouldnt' trust my mother with that power.
I wouldn't trust myself with that power.
I wouldn't trust no one. Absolutely, utterly no one.
Because that is the only sane stance to have regarding such power.

So you  saying you lack both disicipline and morals ? Oh and put anyone else on your level its insulting

So you would trust other people with mind control powers. As mind control constitutes power over people's identity, body, and possessions, that means you'd be likewise willing to trust people with all of those things. 

I wouldn't. Does that mean I lack discipline or morals?

Whatever you trust somebody or not is your concern. But if i give you this power. Do you wish to do evil or good with it? disicipline can be taught. every soldier and policemen knows this.

He stated that he wouldn't trust anyone with absolute power over others(aka mind control). You stated that his reaction constitutes a lack of discipline and morals. 

If I was given this power I would probably use it to enforce my own idea of justice. If people agreed with my view on what constitutes justice, they would state that I possess restraint and only use my powers for good. If people disagreed, they would villify my actions and state that I abuse my powers.

To trust myself with these powers I would need to have absolute certainty and conviction in the rightness of my actions(the same criteria for trusting anyone with this much power, absolute control requires absolute trust). I do not have these things. Does this mean I lack either morals or discipline?

[billy the squid]

Blood magic is a boon, using it I can remove the burden of free will from those who struggle with it. It's a necessary evil, true it can be abused, but as a mage with that level of control I can push civilisation to a greater tomorrow under my direction. The civilisations require unity under the Qun or under the benevolent rule of their Magi overlords as a single empire.

Or we see the current  infighting under the various warring states in Thedas.

Modifié par billy the squid, 01 octobre 2012 - 09:11 .