2177 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


I doubt we'll actually be forced to choose.

True friends won't abandon me just because of the magic I use.

Heaven forbid actions have consequences.

Blood Magic in most of its form is horrifying to the vast majority of people.  True friend or not, it should cause a rift if they view it as unacceptable.

It hasn't for two games straight now. I'd be rather annoyed if they awkwardly shoved it in right here/now.

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

It hasn't for two games straight now. I'd be rather annoyed if they awkwardly shoved it in right here/now.

Oh, so there should suddenly be an option to worship any religion you please, but specializations actually mattering is a bad thing?  Mmhmm.

[Xilizhra]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It hasn't for two games straight now. I'd be rather annoyed if they awkwardly shoved it in right here/now.

Oh, so there should suddenly be an option to worship any religion you please, but specializations actually mattering is a bad thing?  Mmhmm.

Maximum choices for everyone. Surely you could ****** off your party members if you were undiplomatic about it, but could also convince them to accept it.

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

Maximum choices for everyone. Surely you could ****** off your party members if you were undiplomatic about it, but could also convince them to accept it.

Uh, no, if a person believes that blood magic is a horrible, horrible thing, that blood mages are maleficars and are aware of the dangers associated with magic, you can't change that belief.  If you don't like that they might dislike blood magic, then don't recruit them.

[Xilizhra]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Maximum choices for everyone. Surely you could ****** off your party members if you were undiplomatic about it, but could also convince them to accept it.

Uh, no, if a person believes that blood magic is a horrible, horrible thing, that blood mages are maleficars and are aware of the dangers associated with magic, you can't change that belief.  If you don't like that they might dislike blood magic, then don't recruit them.

I'm sure it won't be impossible to get them to accept you.

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm sure it won't be impossible to get them to accept you.

You couldn't alter the core beliefs of characters beforehand.  Alistar won't accept Loghain as a Grey Warden.  You can't convince him otherwise.  You can't convince Loghain that Orlesians are alright people.  Morrigan won't stay with you.  Fenris won't start believing that mages are alright people.  Just assuming that someone who despises blood magic to the core will accept the PC becoming a blood mage is rather shortsighted.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilirza, like all Blood Mages, wants to alter people minds..by force if necessary.

[TEWR]

Fenris won't start believing that mages are alright people

Eh, you kinda can if I recall his endgame dialogue on both the Friendship and Rivalry paths correctly.

What irritates me is how Fenris is so against blood magic that he'll persecute Merrill, who doesn't abuse its power and abhors its malicious aspects.... yet completely ignores a Blood Mage Hawke that's worse then Merrill in how he uses it.

[Xilizhra]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm sure it won't be impossible to get them to accept you.

You couldn't alter the core beliefs of characters beforehand.  Alistar won't accept Loghain as a Grey Warden.  You can't convince him otherwise.  You can't convince Loghain that Orlesians are alright people.  Morrigan won't stay with you.  Fenris won't start believing that mages are alright people.  Just assuming that someone who despises blood magic to the core will accept the PC becoming a blood mage is rather shortsighted.

None of those have anything to do with simple mechanical issues like specialization. I believe it's unfair to block people from choosing certain specializations if they want their party to stay full.

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It hasn't for two games straight now. I'd be rather annoyed if they awkwardly shoved it in right here/now.

Oh, so there should suddenly be an option to worship any religion you please, but specializations actually mattering is a bad thing?  Mmhmm.  

I don't see the issue in having certain companions oppose the protagonist. I'm sure some Seekers and templars would refuse to work with an apostate. I recall Cullen's argument that mages can't be treated like people, and his view that they were weapons; I imagine many in the Order feel the same way.

Speaking of the views of the protagonist, there should be an option to be atheist, like The Warden could be. I don't see why the protagonist should be forced to be religiously Andrastian.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 21 octobre 2012 - 01:18 .

[Terrorize69]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

Would be nice if they showed a positive side to blood magic like giving up your own blood/health to heal people.

If you're going to make a deal with a spirit of sorts anyway and want to help people, why not go spirit healer?  That's a much larger boost to your healing spells than blood magic. 

Yes, blood magic does have some positive use, but as I believe I've said before, it's a very large taboo.

In a war with Templars, who can negate most magic and silence them. Mages are already at a huge disadvantage and with Blood Magic being able to cancel out some of those disadvantages, alot of mages will turn to it just to survive and have a chance to gain their freedom. I'd imagine a lot of those are not power hungry lunatics and know the cost of blood magic, but will try find ways to use it in a constructive and helpful way towards their cause. 

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

None of those have anything to do with simple mechanical issues like specialization. I believe it's unfair to block people from choosing certain specializations if they want their party to stay full.

But specializations shouldn't be simple mechanical issues.  Going one path or another should be recognized and reacted to accordingly, especially now that there's only one specialization allowed.  Not fair?  You hardly need a full party, and characters not being slaves to the PC's will only makes them better as characters.

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't see the issue in having
certain companions oppose the protagonist. I'm sure some Seekers and
templars would refuse to work with an apostate. I recall Cullen's
argument that mages can't be treated like people, and his view that they
were weapons; I imagine many in the Order feel the same way.

Speaking
of the views of the protagonist, there should be an option to be
atheist, like The Warden could be. I don't see why the protagonist
should be forced to be religiously Andrastian.

And if they'd refuse to work with an apostate, they'd refuse to work with a maleficar, yeah?  Or some may have qualms working with a Reaver or an Assassin. 

I was referring to Xil's comment in another topic.  Hawke was already Andrastian, so that's already occurred.  

Terrorize69 wrote...

In a war with Templars, who can
negate most magic and silence them. Mages are already at a huge
disadvantage and with Blood Magic being able to cancel out some of those
disadvantages, alot of mages will turn to it just to survive and have a
chance to gain their freedom. I'd imagine a lot of those are not power
hungry lunatics and know the cost of blood magic, but will try find ways
to use it in a constructive and helpful way towards their cause. 

Not necessarily.  Some people have standards and aren't going to go all Donnor Party at the drop of a hat.  And that doesn't mean just the Blood Magic school; I had a Warden who wouldn't touch the Entropy school and instead went Creation / Spirit because he had qualms about using death to fuel his spells. 

And really, how many mages do you think are ready for blood magic?  We saw in the Circle Tower that blood mages tend to go a bit crazy and start attacking each other.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Eh, you kinda can if I recall his endgame dialogue on both the Friendship and Rivalry paths correctly.

What
irritates me is how Fenris is so against blood magic that he'll
persecute Merrill, who doesn't abuse its power and abhors its malicious
aspects.... yet completely ignores a Blood Mage Hawke that's worse then Merrill in how he uses it.

Really?  I thought he was more loyal to Hawke in that case than caring about mages.

Well, you know, Blood Mage Hawke doesn't result in the same ills as Blood Mage Merrill.

Modifié par BlueMagitek, 21 octobre 2012 - 02:49 .

[Medhia Nox]

Also - Blood Mage Hawke is the player - and Bioware has always pandered to its "evil" player base in unrealistic ways.

I put evil in quotations because it is stated so many times that the vast majority of the populace find blood magic evil... and yet, your plucky band never seem to ever have a problem with it.

Blood magic should be removed from the player's pool of options - you should not put a system you "claim" is sensationally controversial to your NPC world - and then have those same NPCs completely ignore it for the benefit of the player.

====

Avernus fails spectacularly with Blood Magic after making - as he claims - all the preparations possible.

He admits that when dealing with demons that all the variables can never be taken into account.

The demon - when mocking him - even makes a point to laugh at him at his thought that he could control them with blood magic. 

Avernus then goes on to say - that demons are as resistant to blood magic as templars are to regular magic.  One has to assume he means - "In the long run".  Since we know that short term - a blood mage can coerce lesser demons.

I support Blood Magic so the mages can just kill themselves off and save me the trouble.

Senior Mage Torrin says it perfectly: "Short sighted Libertarians. They'll fight for independence and bring us all down with them."

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 21 octobre 2012 - 02:31 .

[Cody]

BlueMagitek wrote...
 Hawke was already Andrastian, so that's already occurred. 

Not really. There are a couple of times that you can deny the Chantry teachings(Sebastians chaste marriage for one) and your character doesn't have to even say any Chantry BS so you can play as a "quiet" atheist of sorts in DA2(one who doesn't outright say he/she doesn't believe in the maker)

[Medhia Nox]

The war isn't "Andrastians" vs "Athiests" - that's an entirely pointless exercise.

The war is... psycho mages vs. fascist templars.

All you have to be - to be an Inquisitor - is to want to stop the war. I find no reason to believe they'll "make" you be an Andrastian.

And even if they "make" you - just be a lapsed one. Plenty of real life atheists come from religious backgrounds.

[LobselVith8]

The Warden was supposed to be able to claim it was "Grey Warden magic," Nox. Hawke's companions dealt with Merrill being a blood mage, so I don't see why they couldn't deal (hypothetically) with Hawke being a blood mage, since they manage to grapple with the fact that he is an apostate.

Uldred and Avernus made the same mistake in demonology - summoning more demons than they could control. Blood magic doesn't require mages to use demonology, so it's a separate issue.

Avernus addressed demons were alien to the taint, which is why he was researching it at Warden's Keep over the centuries. Demons aren't resistant to blood magic, as you can use it to summon a demon and use it; the problem transpires in summoning more demons than one mage can realistically control, which is why he thought his calculations were wrong.

And I disagree with Torrin's opinion. As The Warden says, if mages don't fight for their freedom, they will never be free.

[TEWR]

Really? I thought he was more loyal to Hawke in that case than caring about mages.

I think you can get him to admit that it's the right thing to do, though that's about as much as I can remember.

Well, you know, Blood Mage Hawke doesn't result in the same ills as Blood Mage Merrill.

I'd say he results in worse ills then Merrill -- especially considering Merrill's not at fault for anything. Mostly due to a lack of doing anything remotely competent.

[Vandicus]

Xilizhra wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


I doubt we'll actually be forced to choose.

True friends won't abandon me just because of the magic I use.

Heaven forbid actions have consequences.

Blood Magic in most of its form is horrifying to the vast majority of people.  True friend or not, it should cause a rift if they view it as unacceptable.

It hasn't for two games straight now. I'd be rather annoyed if they awkwardly shoved it in right here/now.

In a dev Q&A they announced their intent for specializations to play a greater role and be acknowledged by NPCs, as well as being limited to one specialization per being on the table(though not guarenteed). Bioware seems intent on breaking down the more immersion breaking segregations between gameplay and story.

[BlueMagitek]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'd say he results in worse ills then Merrill -- especially considering Merrill's not at fault for anything. Mostly due to a lack of doing anything remotely competent.

All Blood Mage Hawke does with Blood Magic is kill a high dragon.  Outside of that Blood Magic really doesn't factor in his story at any point.

Blood Mage Merrill, on the other hand, by taking the Blood Magic Spec, results in the death of her mentor and the possible destruction of her clan.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

BlueMagitek wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'd say he results in worse ills then Merrill -- especially considering Merrill's not at fault for anything. Mostly due to a lack of doing anything remotely competent.

All Blood Mage Hawke does with Blood Magic is kill a high dragon.  Outside of that Blood Magic really doesn't factor in his story at any point.

Blood Mage Merrill, on the other hand, by taking the Blood Magic Spec, results in the death of her mentor and the possible destruction of her clan.

He's referring to Hawke bumbling around Kirkwall and not defusing the situation. This is of course not directly related to his specializations, but it doesn't really look good in combination with one or more unpleasant ones.

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Blood Mage Merrill, on the other hand, by taking the Blood Magic Spec, results in the death of her mentor and the possible destruction of her clan.

Marethari's actions resulted in her demise when she released Audacity from its prison. And I'd blame grown men and women for trying to murder Hawke and Merrill for telling them the truth about Marethari. Merrill doesn't abuse her abilities as a blood mage, so I see no reason for anyone among Hawke's crew to condemn her for it.

[TEWR]

He's referring to Hawke bumbling around Kirkwall and not defusing the situation. This is of course not directly related to his specializations, but it doesn't really look good in combination with one or more unpleasant ones.

Correct. Hawke's failure to act isn't good for his character. Add in how he's a blood mage on certain playthroughs, and BlueMagitek should also be taking issue with that because Hawke's failure to act led to the deaths of Qunari, civilians, Mages, and Templars.

I'd even argue that a Blood Mage Hawke that sells out Fenris or Isabela is leagues worse then Merrill ever is -- as she opposes the notion of slavery, mind control, using other peoples' blood for anything, demonic summoning, profaning the dead, and other acts she deems ghastly.

So yes, BM Hawke is worse then Merrill.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Marethari's actions resulted in her demise when she released Audacity from its prison. And I'd blame grown men and women for trying to murder Hawke and Merrill for telling them the truth about Marethari. Merrill doesn't abuse her abilities as a blood mage, so I see no reason for anyone among Hawke's crew to condemn her for it.

It's no use. This poster believes that Merrill orchestrated the entire clan's death when there isn't anything in-game to support that interpretation other then "People that Merrill knew died", which ignores all of the other facts of the games.

[Medhia Nox]

@LobselVith8: Killing elves seems almost as easy to you as championing them in other situations.

Was it "Blood Magic" - or a LI - that made you side with Merrill more in her bloody quest?

I never played the quest - I hate Merrill - but the Wiki says Marethari only releases the demon to stop Merrill. Equally stupid to be sure - dealing with demons in universally idiotic - but if the PC was doing this - he'd be lauded as a hero.

[LobselVith8]

@ Nox, it's the difference between addressing the plight of the People, and a particular group of people who attempt to commit cold-blooded murder.

I sided with Merrill because I trusted her. She wanted to restore technology that may have been able to irrevocably change the lives of the People. I respected that she was proactive about the trials and tribulations of the Dalish.

Marethari released Audacity because she either came up with another idea about why the Eluvian was dangerous (with no evidence or lore to support her baseless conjecture about the Eluvian yet again), or she was manipulated by Audacity.

[Medhia Nox]

@LobselVith8: Honestly - if a magical item were to make the Dalish have an improvement of their quality of life - I'd find that grossly implausible. I'm not saying Bioware isn't within their rights to do something like that - but a single item making "everything all better?" Well - I don't need to know the workings of the Eluvian to know "that" shouldn't work if Thedas has any artistic similarity to the real world. ((I say "artistic" since this is a work of fiction and calling it "realism" often brings attacks.))

Does Merrill ever tell you "how" it's supposed to help? Or just - "It'll help." Sounds nebulous and ominous to me. ((I know I should probably just play it to get these answers myself - but I can't stomach DA 2))

And if she did - how is it more supported by the lore than anything Marethari said? Merrill didn't seem like a font of wisdom - just a reservoir for every knee-jerk reaction an oppressed people could possibly muster to justify any and all actions.

What the Dalish "need" won't be gotten from quick and easy answers like magical artifacts. Merrill seems so intensely short sighted for an elf.