2177 réponses à ce sujet

[The Hierophant]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@LobselVith8: Honestly - if a magical item were to make the Dalish have an improvement of their quality of life - I'd find that grossly implausible. I'm not saying Bioware isn't within their rights to do something like that - but a single item making "everything all better?" Well - I don't need to know the workings of the Eluvian to know "that" shouldn't work if Thedas has any artistic similarity to the real world. ((I say "artistic" since this is a work of fiction and calling it "realism" often brings attacks.))

Does Merrill ever tell you "how" it's supposed to help? Or just - "It'll help." Sounds nebulous and ominous to me. ((I know I should probably just play it to get these answers myself - but I can't stomach DA 2))

And if she did - how is it more supported by the lore than anything Marethari said? Merrill didn't seem like a font of wisdom - just a reservoir for every knee-jerk reaction an oppressed people could possibly muster to justify any and all actions.

What the Dalish "need" won't be gotten from quick and easy answers like magical artifacts. Merrill seems so intensely short sighted for an elf.

For all Merril Knows the mirror could have transported her up the backside of a broodmother where it's twin is located.

[Darkstorne]

Xilizhra wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Maximum choices for everyone. Surely you could ****** off your party members if you were undiplomatic about it, but could also convince them to accept it.

Uh, no, if a person believes that blood magic is a horrible, horrible thing, that blood mages are maleficars and are aware of the dangers associated with magic, you can't change that belief.  If you don't like that they might dislike blood magic, then don't recruit them.

I'm sure it won't be impossible to get them to accept you.

I hope not. Have you ever tried convincing a religious person that their god does not exist? Or vice versa? Have you ever tried convicing a straight man that other men should be more attractive to him than women?

Core beliefs cannot be altered. Not without witchcraft or a well-placed concussion or two. Blood magic is one of those things in Thedas that is incredibly divisive. It is not something people will change their minds about after a brief five minute discussion.

[BlueMagitek]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

He's referring to Hawke bumbling around Kirkwall and not defusing the situation. This is of course not directly related to his specializations, but it doesn't really look good in combination with one or more unpleasant ones.

But those actions may have happened regardless of the specialization.  The same way that the Warden would not be asked about strange magic had he not taken the BM spec.  If it was left in.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Correct. Hawke's
failure to act isn't good for his character. Add in how he's a blood
mage on certain playthroughs, and BlueMagitek should also be taking
issue with that because Hawke's failure to act led to the deaths of
Qunari, civilians, Mages, and Templars.

I'd even argue that a
Blood Mage Hawke that sells out Fenris or Isabela is leagues worse then
Merrill ever is -- as she opposes the notion of slavery, mind control,
using other peoples' blood for anything, demonic summoning, profaning
the dead, and other acts she deems ghastly.

So yes, BM Hawke is worse then Merrill.

It's
no use. This poster believes that Merrill orchestrated the entire
clan's death when there isn't anything in-game to support that
interpretation other then "People that Merrill knew died", which ignores
all of the other facts of the games.

Ah, but again, that's an issue with Hawke.  The only thing that really changes if he is a Blood Mage is the High Dragon death animation.  All of those things happen regardless of his specilization.

I don't recall selling out Fenris or Isabela to be the result of being a blood mage.  If they can happen regardless of the specialization, it's not a result of being a blood mage.

Hawke *can* be worse than Merrill regardless of specialization.  By taking the BM Spec, Merrill brings results of tragedy upon her people.  By taking the BM Spec, Hawke... kills a High Dragon with Blood Magic, and kills, sells out and kills more people that he would have done anyway.

[LobselVith8]

@ Nox, we are addressing technology that can improve communication between the People, and hold answers to a plethora of questions if it leads to a place "beyond this world, and beyond the Fade." I don't see why the potential of the Eluvian should be dismissed.

Merrill studied the lore on the Eluvian, and she extrapolated information from the shard. She did her research.

Marethari, in contrast, never argues from a point of being informed; she makes it clear in Act II that she thinks their ancestors never wanted the Eluvians to be found again, but considering the Arlathan elves lost the Eluvians because of the invasion by Tevinter, this is asinine. Marethari also argues that the taint of the Eluvian is dangerous, but Merrill cleansed the shard of the taint, which is why she isn't a ghoul several years later.

Merrill isn't short-sighted, but I don't get the feeling that you and I will agree about this issue.

[Cody]

The Hierophant wrote...
For all Merril Knows the mirror could have transported her up the backside of a broodmother where it's twin is located.

The brood mother has been dead for some time by that time so no.

BlueMagitek wrote...
Ah, but again, that's an issue with
Hawke.  The only thing that really changes if he is a Blood Mage is the
High Dragon death animation.  All of those things happen regardless of
his specilization.

I am pretty sure the animation is the same. I
looked up on youtube and watched two vids, one with a blood mage hawke
and one with a non blood mage hawke. The kill animation was still the
same in both vids.

Modifié par CodyMelch, 22 octobre 2012 - 04:53 .

[BlueMagitek]

CodyMelch wrote...

I am pretty sure the animation is the same. I
looked up on youtube and watched two vids, one with a blood mage hawke
and one with a non blood mage hawke. The kill animation was still the
same in both vids.

Well that's a pity. ._.

[Cody]

Indeed. But to be fair, Bio just started class specific kill animations in Awakening. And that was only with the broodmommy. Then they perfected it in DA2. I am sure in DA3 specializations will have more presence in the plot.

Modifié par CodyMelch, 23 octobre 2012 - 12:41 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Merrill studied the lore on the Eluvian, and she extrapolated information from the shard. She did her research.

Marethari, in contrast, never argues from a point of being informed; she makes it clear in Act II that she thinks their ancestors never wanted the Eluvians to be found again, but considering the Arlathan elves lost the Eluvians because of the invasion by Tevinter, this is asinine. Marethari also argues that the taint of the Eluvian is dangerous, but Merrill cleansed the shard of the taint, which is why she isn't a ghoul several years later.

So the Keeper, the one who holds the most knowledge of elven culture and magic, is uninformed?
And you base that on nothing more than Methararis oposition to Merril?

[Terrorize69]

Atleast we all agree Merrill is awesome \\o/

[Cody]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Merrill studied the lore on the Eluvian, and she extrapolated information from the shard. She did her research.

Marethari, in contrast, never argues from a point of being informed; she makes it clear in Act II that she thinks their ancestors never wanted the Eluvians to be found again, but considering the Arlathan elves lost the Eluvians because of the invasion by Tevinter, this is asinine. Marethari also argues that the taint of the Eluvian is dangerous, but Merrill cleansed the shard of the taint, which is why she isn't a ghoul several years later.

So the Keeper, the one who holds the most knowledge of elven culture and magic, is uninformed?
And you base that on nothing more than Methararis oposition to Merril?

No we base that on the fact that she herself admits to not knowing jacksh!t about the Eluvians.

[Lotion Soronarr]

CodyMelch wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Merrill studied the lore on the Eluvian, and she extrapolated information from the shard. She did her research.

Marethari, in contrast, never argues from a point of being informed; she makes it clear in Act II that she thinks their ancestors never wanted the Eluvians to be found again, but considering the Arlathan elves lost the Eluvians because of the invasion by Tevinter, this is asinine. Marethari also argues that the taint of the Eluvian is dangerous, but Merrill cleansed the shard of the taint, which is why she isn't a ghoul several years later.

So the Keeper, the one who holds the most knowledge of elven culture and magic, is uninformed?
And you base that on nothing more than Methararis oposition to Merril?

No we base that on the fact that she herself admits to not knowing jacksh!t about the Eluvians.

And Merril knows more?
From where exactly does this knowledge come from?

[Cody]

Books that the Dalish actually have. Merril has studied them while the keeper chose not too.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And Merril knows more?
From where exactly does this knowledge come from? 

The developers addressed that Merrill "extrapolated information from the shard and studied the lore."

[Maria Caliban]

Merrill spent seven years studying the mirror and gathering knowledge about this.

This is like expressing incredulity at Leliana knowing how to spy.

[The Hierophant]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Merrill spent seven years studying the mirror and gathering knowledge about this.

This is like expressing incredulity at Leliana knowing how to spy.

I'm still mystified at how she took Wryme's bargain at face value with little skepticism on her part due to her comment of the dangers of spirits. (You're going to ask  "wth does this response has to do with my post?", and i'll respond with "Not a d@mn thang.")

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Merrill studied the lore on the Eluvian, and she extrapolated information from the shard. She did her research.

Marethari, in contrast, never argues from a point of being informed; she makes it clear in Act II that she thinks their ancestors never wanted the Eluvians to be found again, but considering the Arlathan elves lost the Eluvians because of the invasion by Tevinter, this is asinine. Marethari also argues that the taint of the Eluvian is dangerous, but Merrill cleansed the shard of the taint, which is why she isn't a ghoul several years later.

So the Keeper, the one who holds the most knowledge of elven culture and magic, is uninformed?
And you base that on nothing more than Methararis oposition to Merril?

No we base that on the fact that she herself admits to not knowing jacksh!t about the Eluvians.

And Merril knows more?
From where exactly does this knowledge come from?

We have something in our own world called science. look it up hwat it means. w t f

[Lotion Soronarr]

Actually, you don't know where Merril got her "expert knowledge" from.

You don't even know if she has any expert knowledge to begin with and isn't just flat out lying.
You extrapolate and assume a whole lot.

[BlueMagitek]

Listen, I know a lot of people are passionate about Merrill for reasons I don't understand, but this topic is about how a very power specialization (Blood Magic) should have some very powerful consequences. =D

[Auintus]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Listen, I know a lot of people are passionate about Merrill for reasons I don't understand, but this topic is about how a very power specialization (Blood Magic) should have some very powerful consequences. =D

Fair enough. I just don't want those consequences to override ever other part of who my character is. A blood mage should be greeted with fear and distrust, but, if I play nicely, there is no reason that they should not grow to trust me, save a few extremists who would probably attack on sight.

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Actually, you don't know where Merril got her "expert knowledge" from.

You don't even know if she has any expert knowledge to begin with and isn't just flat out lying.
You extrapolate and assume a whole lot.

Yeah their is a ****load of other Eluvian experts to compare her with yes? Or you are simply talking out of your ass again Lotion. SHE is the one who build the ****ing thing from scratch.

[DKJaigen]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Listen, I know a lot of people are passionate about Merrill for reasons I don't understand, but this topic is about how a very power specialization (Blood Magic) should have some very powerful consequences. =D

To be honest their really should  be more forbidden magic then just bloodmagic. And no their should be no consequences because of it.

[BlueMagitek]

Auintus wrote...

Fair enough. I just don't want those consequences to override ever other part of who my character is. A blood mage should be greeted with fear and distrust, but, if I play nicely, there is no reason that they should not grow to trust me, save a few extremists who would probably attack on sight.

I disagree.  To become a Blood Mage requires you either get it from a demon, another Blood Mage, or books.  The first two options are not really the mark of a good person.  And then, if you use your blood magic to mind control another person; how can anyone in the party really trust you, knowing that not only can you control the mind of another, but you have done so?  

Hence the cap I proposed.... I don't even know how many pages ago.  By becoming a blood mage, you've capped some of your companions loyalty at, say, 60.  Maybe they can still be friendly towards you, but they'll still be wary.  Then, if you begin to use blood magic to control minds, the cap drops to 20.  If they've already been too low, they'll just leave. 

Of course, to counter this, Blood Magic should be very powerful, increase the potentcy of all of your spells when you cast from blood, and maybe open some unique dialog options via blood magic control.

It's all about the consequences.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Actually, you don't know where Merril got her "expert knowledge" from.

You don't even know if she has any expert knowledge to begin with and isn't just flat out lying.
You extrapolate and assume a whole lot.

Yeah their is a ****load of other Eluvian experts to compare her with yes? Or you are simply talking out of your ass again Lotion. SHE is the one who build the ****ing thing from scratch.

And it doesn't work...

I've yet to see any real evidence that Merril knows more about Eluvians than her Keeper.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...
To be honest their really should  be more forbidden magic then just bloodmagic. And no their should be no consequences because of it.

Translation:

"WE WANT MORE REALISTIC CONSEQUENCES!!!......except when it inconveniences me or my ego."

[Auintus]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Fair enough. I just don't want those consequences to override ever other part of who my character is. A blood mage should be greeted with fear and distrust, but, if I play nicely, there is no reason that they should not grow to trust me, save a few extremists who would probably attack on sight.

I disagree.  To become a Blood Mage requires you either get it from a demon, another Blood Mage, or books.  The first two options are not really the mark of a good person.  And then, if you use your blood magic to mind control another person; how can anyone in the party really trust you, knowing that not only can you control the mind of another, but you have done so?  

Hence the cap I proposed.... I don't even know how many pages ago.  By becoming a blood mage, you've capped some of your companions loyalty at, say, 60.  Maybe they can still be friendly towards you, but they'll still be wary.  Then, if you begin to use blood magic to control minds, the cap drops to 20.  If they've already been too low, they'll just leave. 

Of course, to counter this, Blood Magic should be very powerful, increase the potentcy of all of your spells when you cast from blood, and maybe open some unique dialog options via blood magic control.

It's all about the consequences.

In Origins(the system for unlocking specs was better), I intimidated Connor's demon into both teaching be Blood magic and leaving the boy alone. Then I turned that power against the Darkspawn. Nothing marking me as a terrible person there.
Anders has a conversation with Merril in DA2 that implies that blood magic can be discovered accidentally. ("You cut yourself and realized the power. You didn't actually converse with a demon, right?" Or something along those lines.)
All things considered, I think that maybe some characters would react as per your system, but there is no reason that every single person would regard me as a threat, forever.
In addition, even a power like mind control is only a tool. If employed in the right manner, for the greater good, there is no reason for a reasonable individual to consider me irredeemably evil.