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Blood Magic. Great power should come with great price


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#1576
Auintus

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BlueMagitek wrote...

Well, clearly the writer wasn't aware of all schools of magic.  Codexes are biased and what have you.

I don't know, Andraste raised a decapitated redhead and changed the codexes appropriately.

I still take that as sort of a 'I know this isn't possible but I'm going to ask you anyway in the hopes that it is'.   Like... Oh, I don't know.  "That's not a bomb, right?"  "It sure is!" "x.x"


Fair enough.

Hmm...reminds me of a tavern conversation in Awakening. "Who would win in a fight between Andraste and the Archdemon?"
The Maker may have an edge up, but consider that Dumat should be dead. Also, aside from that, the Maker has proven himself a collosal ******.

I don't think so, but I will admit there was a bit of...desperation in his voice.

Modifié par Auintus, 24 octobre 2012 - 02:50 .


#1577
BlueMagitek

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Auintus wrote...

Hmm...reminds me of a tavern conversation in Awakening. "Who would win in a fight between Andraste and the Archdemon?"
The Maker may have an edge up, but consider that Dumat should be dead. Also, aside from that, the Maker has proven himself a collosal ******.

I don't think so, but I will admit there was a bit of...desperation in his voice.


Archdemon, easy. 

Eh, any half decent god can do things beyond the dead.  "Even dead gods can dream", after all. The Maker being a ****** has nothing to do with comparing their power levels. 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then.

#1578
Auintus

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BlueMagitek wrote...

Archdemon, easy. 

Eh, any half decent god can do things beyond the dead.  "Even dead gods can dream", after all. The Maker being a ****** has nothing to do with comparing their power levels. 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then.


"But Andraste can call on the Maker!"

Power levels, you are correct. I was trying to compare them in the benefit of following one over the other.

I found someone who is reasonable on the BSN. This day shall be remembered.

#1579
BlueMagitek

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Auintus wrote...

"But Andraste can call on the Maker!"

Power levels, you are correct. I was trying to compare them in the benefit of following one over the other.

I found someone who is reasonable on the BSN. This day shall be remembered.


Pssh, the Maker didn't do a thing as she got burned.  Cleary the Maker has a woman's scorn. :lol:

Ah.  Well, by following the Maker, you get an army of anti magic peeps protecting the common good at the cost of their sanity.

Pssh, I'm plenty reasonable so long as the other person is.  :wizard:

#1580
Auintus

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BlueMagitek wrote...

Pssh, the Maker didn't do a thing as she got burned.  Cleary the Maker has a woman's scorn. :lol:

Ah.  Well, by following the Maker, you get an army of anti magic peeps protecting the common good at the cost of their sanity.

Pssh, I'm plenty reasonable so long as the other person is.  :wizard:


...That's not how it goes. Your supposed to say, "That's cheating." That's how it went in the tavern. :D

I'm not sure if that is a good thing or a bad thing. :?

Perhaps. All I know is Lotion Soronnar and Cultist took up multiple pages with an ever-expanding arguement on the death of Leliana. My expectations have been set low.

#1581
BlueMagitek

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Auintus wrote...
...That's not how it goes. Your supposed to say, "That's cheating." That's how it went in the tavern. :D

I'm not sure if that is a good thing or a bad thing. :?

Perhaps. All I know is Lotion Soronnar and Cultist took up multiple pages with an ever-expanding arguement on the death of Leliana. My expectations have been set low.


Nah.  Sometimes you just gotta sequence break, bro. =D

Listen, if you aren't willing to give up your sanity to protect others or discover the truth, this Call of Cthulhu game isn't going to go anywhere anytime soon.  :whistle:

Lotion's a good guy, don't be hatin'. 

But it seems clear that the Ashes or mountain of lyrium or faith in the Urn had something to do with it.  We aren't even sure that Dragon blood, apparently rich in protiens and class unlocking power, would actually neutralize the Ashes.

What actually always annoyed me was that you *had* to do Haven.  My Dalish Warden (aka jerkass run) who killed off Connor and the town of Redcliffe, annulled the Tower, killed off the Werewolves (etc) did not give a damn about Earl whatever. I'm sure Bann Teagan could at least get the Landsmeet going, it would be harder to win the debate though. ~_~

#1582
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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BlueMagitek wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

An elven mage could have plenty of reason not to believe. It's pretty much how I shaped my Surana Warden.


Taken there from a young age and living amongst Andrastians, some of them radically so, does not make a recipe for atheism. 


If they were nice to the mage, it wouldn't. On the other hand, having to deal with constant crap from those same radical Andrastians (the ones portrayed in the Origin were pretty nice, which conflicts sharply with the Blood Mage describing the Chantry in general as "a brick wall that would rather [we] didn't exist") will make you question whether or not there is an Andraste, or at least why she'd allow all this if she was that cool.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 24 octobre 2012 - 03:30 .


#1583
Auintus

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BlueMagitek wrote...

Nah.  Sometimes you just gotta sequence break, bro. =D

Listen, if you aren't willing to give up your sanity to protect others or discover the truth, this Call of Cthulhu game isn't going to go anywhere anytime soon.  :whistle:

Lotion's a good guy, don't be hatin'. 

But it seems clear that the Ashes or mountain of lyrium or faith in the Urn had something to do with it.  We aren't even sure that Dragon blood, apparently rich in protiens and class unlocking power, would actually neutralize the Ashes.

What actually always annoyed me was that you *had* to do Haven.  My Dalish Warden (aka jerkass run) who killed off Connor and the town of Redcliffe, annulled the Tower, killed off the Werewolves (etc) did not give a damn about Earl whatever. I'm sure Bann Teagan could at least get the Landsmeet going, it would be harder to win the debate though. ~_~


I'm just not sure that being insane is conducive to protecting the innocent. Meredith shows how well that went.

Not hatin' anybody. Just pointing out that a conversation went in literal circles and he was part of it. Wait...I remember. He started insulting my blood mage. Then he insulted me. Never mind, I will be hatin'.

I think it was just the fact that the remains of Andraste, assuming their power was of divine origin, were contaminated. Not  a literal depowering, just that it's part-Andraste, part-dragon blood.

You make an excellent point. I don't see a reason for Eamon to be the only one who canget things started, especially when half of Fereldan is aware that Logain has proven incapable of stopping the Blight. You just needed a patron to get things started. Teagan should have been able to do that.

Modifié par Auintus, 24 octobre 2012 - 03:56 .


#1584
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Auintus wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...


What actually always annoyed me was that you *had* to do Haven.  My Dalish Warden (aka jerkass run) who killed off Connor and the town of Redcliffe, annulled the Tower, killed off the Werewolves (etc) did not give a damn about Earl whatever. I'm sure Bann Teagan could at least get the Landsmeet going, it would be harder to win the debate though. ~_~


You make an excellent point. I don't see a reason for Eamon to be the only one who can get things started, especially when half of Fereldan is aware that Logain has proven incapable of stopping the Blight. You just needed a patron to get things started. Teagan should have been able to do that.


He and Alistair weren't sure, and Teagan was clearly used to following his brother's lead. He probably could have set the thing up, especially with the PC's help. This goes double if he can get some help from a Cousland PC. He just... didn't. Maybe I can even understand why, since Alistair's inferiority complex seems to have stemmed from Eamon's actions.

(I've never considered Eamon to be more of a dick than I do now, even when I admitted to myself that he probably had somewhat selfish motivations for wanting to stick around Alistair after he was crowned.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 24 octobre 2012 - 03:57 .


#1585
Auintus

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Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

He and Alistair weren't sure, and Teagan was clearly used to following his brother's lead. He probably could have set the thing up, especially with the PC's help. This goes double if he can get some help from a Cousland PC. He just... didn't. Maybe I can even understand why, since Alistair's inferiority complex seems to have stemmed from Eamon's actions.

(I've never considered Eamon to be more of a dick than I do now, even when I admitted to myself that he probably had somewhat selfish motivations for wanting to stick around Alistair after he was crowned.)


Yeah, but considering the situation and the odds of actually finding the magic remains of a dead woman...You'd think somebody could've stepped up.

Thus I never crown Alistair alone.

#1586
LobselVith8

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BlueMagitek wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

An elven mage could have plenty of reason not to believe. It's pretty much how I shaped my Surana Warden.


Taken there from a young age and living amongst Andrastians, some of them radically so, does not make a recipe for atheism. 


The elven mage can note he dealt with racism at the Circle. He can condemn the Chantry over what happened to the Dales. There's a reason my Surana Warden called the Circle of Ferelden an "oppressive place."

#1587
Shadow Fox

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LobselVith8 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

An elven mage could have plenty of reason not to believe. It's pretty much how I shaped my Surana Warden.


Taken there from a young age and living amongst Andrastians, some of them radically so, does not make a recipe for atheism. 


The elven mage can note he dealt with racism at the Circle. He can condemn the Chantry over what happened to the Dales. There's a reason my Surana Warden called the Circle of Ferelden an "oppressive place."

They can also say Elves are treated equally in the Circle and they have no problem with the current system.

Modifié par Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke, 24 octobre 2012 - 04:20 .


#1588
LobselVith8

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Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

They can also say Elves are treated equally in the Ciecle and they have no problem with the current system.


Loyalists, I get that. The different fraternities address that not all mages see the Circle the same way, and some have had different experiences than others. However, I'm addressing the mindset of someone who doesn't like the Chantry controlled Circle, has disdain for the religious organization over what happened to the second elven homeland, and doesn't believe in the religious teachings of the Chantry.

#1589
Cody

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To the point of how one can learn blood magic, Conner learned how to use blood magic from the books that Jowan had around after Isolde threw him in the dungeon. So it is possible to learn blood magic from books.

#1590
Lotion Soronarr

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CodyMelch wrote...

To the point of how one can learn blood magic, Conner learned how to use blood magic from the books that Jowan had around after Isolde threw him in the dungeon. So it is possible to learn blood magic from books.


I don't think Connor learned a thing from books.
By the time we see him use blood magic, he's already possesed. So that would be the demon doing it.
And all demons seem to know blood magic.

#1591
Lotion Soronarr

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And you base that on nothing more than Methararis oposition to Merril?


And the fact that in DAO, she says she's never heard of a magic mirror and that in both games, she says she wants nothing to do with the mirrors ever.


Which begs the question how did Merril learn anything then.

I don't see the old dalish leaving instruction manuals and I've seen no dalihs books wahtsoever. Futhermore, if there are any dalish books or lore on it, Metharari would know about it, being the Keeper.
After all, everything Merril know about the Dalish she learened from her Keeper, and her training wasn't nearly complete.

Also, Metharari wanting nothing to do with them doesn't mean she knows nothing about them... In fact, her strong opposition to it could indicate that she indeed knows a lot more than she is willing to admitt.

#1592
TEWR

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...


Which begs the question how did Merril learn anything then.


Not really. Gaider's said that once she went to Kirkwall, she studied what scraps of lore she could find on the Eluvians and extrapolated information from them, applying it to the shard of the mirror she had.

All of Merrill's work after cleansing the shard of the Taint was based on what research she could find. She never relied on the Demon to help her aside from learning blood magic, as Act 3 has her trying to reestablish contact with him -- something that fails, due to both the Demon's ability to communicate being directly tied to proximity, which the short story tells us, and possibly Marethari having already freed him at this point.



Also, Metharari wanting nothing to do with them doesn't mean she knows nothing about them... In fact, her strong opposition to it could indicate that she indeed knows a lot more than she is willing to admitt.


She said she knew nothing about them in DAO, and when Merrill went to her asking Marethari to combine her healing magic that could combat the Taint in its unamplified form (per Origins) with Merrill's -- as she was taught it by Marethari -- Marethari refused. And this was not long after they fled Ferelden, where Marethari said "I've never heard of any such thing in all of the lore we possess".

Which was what forced Merrill to use blood magic, as she only had one viable alternative: Teaming up with her Keeper. Lyrium would've also worked, had she been able to get some without serious ramifications to her or her clan. But she couldn't, so blood magic was the last option available.


Further in the game, she says she wouldn't study them, work on them, or do anything with them at all.


And she doesn't bother to really inform Merrill of anything in the ensuing years other then "It's EVUL!!!!", which isn't going to do much to dissuade a person from a certain path. Specifics would help when you're dealing with something from an ancient culture you know little about.

Given that she comes up with her "revelation" in a moment where she's possessed by a Demon -- who as we find out can perfectly mimic Marethari -- and made no effort to tell Merrill about this revelation in any of the seven years Merrill was working on it, I'm inclined to believe that she didn't do the research at all.

Which is supported, in all the time we see her, by her unwillingness to research them.

She says in Origins she knows nothing about them, and in DAII that she wants nothing to do with them and that she wouldn't study them anyway (in Act 2, IIRC).

#1593
EmperorSahlertz

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Merrill herself says that Marethari and her argued extensively about the subject. So just because Marethari didn't bother with arguing infront of her clans' guests, doesn't mean she didn't have more to say about the subject.

#1594
Auintus

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

To the point of how one can learn blood magic, Conner learned how to use blood magic from the books that Jowan had around after Isolde threw him in the dungeon. So it is possible to learn blood magic from books.


I don't think Connor learned a thing from books.
By the time we see him use blood magic, he's already possesed. So that would be the demon doing it.
And all demons seem to know blood magic.


Didn't Jowan think that the demon contacted Connor with the offer? Then Connor wouldn't need blood magic at all.

#1595
EmperorSahlertz

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No where is it stated that Conner learned blood magic. Jowan claimed to have learned of blood magic through books.

#1596
Auintus

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No where is it stated that Conner learned blood magic. Jowan claimed to have learned of blood magic through books.


I just said he wouldn't need it. It isn't stated that Connor learned blood magic.

#1597
Cody

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

To the point of how one can learn blood magic, Conner learned how to use blood magic from the books that Jowan had around after Isolde threw him in the dungeon. So it is possible to learn blood magic from books.


I don't think Connor learned a thing from books.
By the time we see him use blood magic, he's already possesed. So that would be the demon doing it.
And all demons seem to know blood magic.


He learned how to tear the veil open and summon a demon. He himself said he only was capable of doing that due to the books Jowan had. Jowan told him not to touch them but due to his father being poisoned and Jowan in the dungeons he had little choice. In the end what he did was a form of blood magic but that wasn't the point really, the point was that one can learn blood magic from books, as evident by the books Jowan kept. Whether Conner actually used blood magic is irrelevent to my post. As it is he most likely did due to being able to summon the demon in the first place with the help of Jowan's books.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No where is it stated that Conner learned blood magic. Jowan claimed to have learned of blood magic through books.


It
did. Talk to conner while he is still possessed in redcliffe. He admits
to summoning the demon with the help of Jowans books.

Modifié par CodyMelch, 24 octobre 2012 - 01:48 .


#1598
EmperorSahlertz

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It doesn't require blood magic to contact a demon. And if all Jowan's books taught was to contact a demon, then he didn't neccesarily learn blood magic through a book, but how to contact a demon who could give him blood magic.

#1599
Palidane

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Am I the only one who thinks Jowan is exactly the wrong kind of person you want doing blood magic? I mean, the guy went in search of forbidden arts... for power. Not even power to fight injustice or templars or whatever, but power to out do his friend in school. Come on, that is just a bad idea all around.

#1600
Cody

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Palidane wrote...

Am I the only one who thinks Jowan is exactly the wrong kind of person you want doing blood magic? I mean, the guy went in search of forbidden arts... for power. Not even power to fight injustice or templars or whatever, but power to out do his friend in school. Come on, that is just a bad idea all around.


That was never his intention at all. He said he was curious. Never did he want to "out do" his friend.

But yea, last person you want as a blood mage since he is pretty damn dumb.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Merrill herself says that
Marethari and her argued extensively about the subject. So just because
Marethari didn't bother with arguing infront of her clans' guests,
doesn't mean she didn't have more to say about the subject.


Hardly means anything. A child can argue with a genius yet that does not mean the child knows what it's talking about.