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[Palidane]

CodyMelch wrote...

Palidane wrote...

Am I the only one who thinks Jowan is exactly the wrong kind of person you want doing blood magic? I mean, the guy went in search of forbidden arts... for power. Not even power to fight injustice or templars or whatever, but power to out do his friend in school. Come on, that is just a bad idea all around.

That was never his intention at all. He said he was curious. Never did he want to "out do" his friend.

But yea, last person you want as a blood mage since he is pretty damn dumb.

If you execute him at Redcliffe, he tells you he turned to blood magic because he was jealous at how skilled you were and how he could never hope to rise to your level.

So yeah, he turned to forbidden arts that have you harness the power of blood to outshine his schoolboy rival. Genius.

[The Hierophant]

Blood magic is not all that bad as an elderly practitioner can treat erectile dysfunction.

[Cody]

Palidane wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

Palidane wrote...

Am I the only one who thinks Jowan is exactly the wrong kind of person you want doing blood magic? I mean, the guy went in search of forbidden arts... for power. Not even power to fight injustice or templars or whatever, but power to out do his friend in school. Come on, that is just a bad idea all around.

That was never his intention at all. He said he was curious. Never did he want to "out do" his friend.

But yea, last person you want as a blood mage since he is pretty damn dumb.

If you execute him at Redcliffe, he tells you he turned to blood magic because he was jealous at how skilled you were and how he could never hope to rise to your level.

So yeah, he turned to forbidden arts that have you harness the power of blood to outshine his schoolboy rival. Genius.

Never got that far on my mage. Did not know that. Funny that he still managed to look like an idiot and a weakling even with blood mage.

Still like him though.

[EmperorSahlertz]

CodyMelch wrote...

Hardly means anything. A child can argue with a genius yet that does not mean the child knows what it's talking about.

It means that TEWR is wrong when he says that Marethari had nothing to say about the subject.

[Auintus]

Palidane wrote...

Am I the only one who thinks Jowan is exactly the wrong kind of person you want doing blood magic? I mean, the guy went in search of forbidden arts... for power. Not even power to fight injustice or templars or whatever, but power to out do his friend in school. Come on, that is just a bad idea all around.

Especially if you go to youtube and see how the quest 'Jowan's Intention" plays out(it's bugged.) You can see he is a good person, one who wouldn't abuse blood magic, but not quite the kind of person you want with that kind of power.

[LobselVith8]

I thought Jowan was a good person at heart, even though he made some mistakes. My Surana protagonist refused to simply let Jowan be made tranquil, and felt like he let him down when the templars caught us after he destroyed his phylactery. He knew blood magic, but he wasn't evil. Jowan made mistakes, but he decides to dedicate his time to protecting refugees from the darkspawn as 'Master Levyn' if you release him from prison and tell him to leave Redcliffe. He isn't perfect, but he certainly finds his way with time.

Even the situation with Connor happened after Loghain's machinations - he was the Hero of River Dane. Why wouldn't Jowan trust him? He freed Ferelden from the Orlesians after a century of brutal oppression and occupation. Poor Connor wasn't properly trained, and didn't realize the "bad lady" in his dreams was even a demon. I don't think the situation in Redcliffe should condemn Jowan, and I prefer letting him go so he can start a new life as Master Levyn.

[Auintus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I thought Jowan was a good person at heart, even though he made some mistakes. My Surana protagonist refused to simply let Jowan be made tranquil, and felt like he let him down when the templars caught us after he destroyed his phylactery. He knew blood magic, but he wasn't evil. Jowan made mistakes, but he decides to dedicate his time to protecting refugees from the darkspawn as 'Master Levyn' if you release him from prison and tell him to leave Redcliffe. He isn't perfect, but he certainly finds his way with time.

Even the situation with Connor happened after Loghain's machinations - he was the Hero of River Dane. Why wouldn't Jowan trust him? He freed Ferelden from the Orlesians after a century of brutal oppression and occupation. Poor Connor wasn't properly trained, and didn't realize the "bad lady" in his dreams was even a demon. I don't think the situation in Redcliffe should condemn Jowan, and I prefer letting him go so he can start a new life as Master Levyn.

I was trying to find that quest for ages after it showed up in my quest list. Wish I could've finished it.

[Medhia Nox]

Jowan - like every blood mage - is a weak willed, self centered coward.

He commits to blood magic because he can't hack it as a real mage. Your character confirms this during conversation with him in the Chantry temple in the Circle tower.  He can't even light a candle with his magical ability.

And if you blindly follow a "Hero" that asks you to poison an Arl while under the guise of being a teacher to his apostate son... then you're a man of small morals.

But - of course, Jowan helped Loghain for protection... not out of altruism.

And a brief text blip of Jowan's future may exonerate him for you - but that's hardly a factual account of the rest of his days. Truth is - we can't know what he does in the future.

There's many a corrupt doctor in real life - just because he dons a new guise and heals a few people - doesn't elevate him to "The Blood Mage that done good."

And I bet he's not doing any of that healing with Blood Magic... cause it's a degenerate form of magic.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 24 octobre 2012 - 05:45 .

[Cody]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

Hardly means anything. A child can argue with a genius yet that does not mean the child knows what it's talking about.

It means that TEWR is wrong when he says that Marethari had nothing to say about the subject.

No it means that even people who do not know what they are talking about will argue against those who DO know what they are talking about.

Marethari had something to say yes, but it was bs blind ignorance with no basis for her arguments and accusations.

Modifié par CodyMelch, 24 octobre 2012 - 06:29 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

CodyMelch wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

Hardly means anything. A child can argue with a genius yet that does not mean the child knows what it's talking about.

It means that TEWR is wrong when he says that Marethari had nothing to say about the subject.

No it means that even people who do not know what they are talking about will argue against those who DO know what they are talking about.

Marethari had something to say yes, but it was bs blind ignorance with no basis for her arguments and accusations.

Except it wasn't. Marethari had the EXACT amount of previous exposure to an Eluvian as Merrill did. Merrill just thought that listening to a demon was a jolly good idea, Marethari thought that Eluvians was better left alone.

[Cody]

No she did not. She was never in contact with it, just 2 Dalish part of her tribe were affected by it. That's it. She has as much experience with it as Alistiar did, in other words none at all.

Modifié par CodyMelch, 24 octobre 2012 - 06:59 .

[Auintus]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

Hardly means anything. A child can argue with a genius yet that does not mean the child knows what it's talking about.

It means that TEWR is wrong when he says that Marethari had nothing to say about the subject.

No it means that even people who do not know what they are talking about will argue against those who DO know what they are talking about.

Marethari had something to say yes, but it was bs blind ignorance with no basis for her arguments and accusations.

Except it wasn't. Marethari had the EXACT amount of previous exposure to an Eluvian as Merrill did. Merrill just thought that listening to a demon was a jolly good idea, Marethari thought that Eluvians was better left alone.

It was a matter of willingness to risk something. Marethari was too afraid of what might happen to consider it worth the cost, while Merril was more concerned with what might be restored to her people to consider just how badly it could go wrong. A matter of experience, I think. Marethari understood that the Dalish may never completely reclaim their heritage while Merril was caught up in the past.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Auintus wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

Hardly means anything. A child can argue with a genius yet that does not mean the child knows what it's talking about.

It means that TEWR is wrong when he says that Marethari had nothing to say about the subject.

No it means that even people who do not know what they are talking about will argue against those who DO know what they are talking about.

Marethari had something to say yes, but it was bs blind ignorance with no basis for her arguments and accusations.

Except it wasn't. Marethari had the EXACT amount of previous exposure to an Eluvian as Merrill did. Merrill just thought that listening to a demon was a jolly good idea, Marethari thought that Eluvians was better left alone.

It was a matter of willingness to risk something. Marethari was too afraid of what might happen to consider it worth the cost, while Merril was more concerned with what might be restored to her people to consider just how badly it could go wrong. A matter of experience, I think. Marethari understood that the Dalish may never completely reclaim their heritage while Merril was caught up in the past.

I agree. I just find it annoying when people claim that Marethari was somehow of inferior knowledge of an Eluvian than Merrill, when that simply wasn't the case.

[Auintus]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Jowan - like every blood mage - is a weak willed, self centered coward.

He commits to blood magic because he can't hack it as a real mage. Your character confirms this during conversation with him in the Chantry temple in the Circle tower.  He can't even light a candle with his magical ability.

And if you blindly follow a "Hero" that asks you to poison an Arl while under the guise of being a teacher to his apostate son... then you're a man of small morals.

But - of course, Jowan helped Loghain for protection... not out of altruism.

And a brief text blip of Jowan's future may exonerate him for you - but that's hardly a factual account of the rest of his days. Truth is - we can't know what he does in the future.

There's many a corrupt doctor in real life - just because he dons a new guise and heals a few people - doesn't elevate him to "The Blood Mage that done good."

And I bet he's not doing any of that healing with Blood Magic... cause it's a degenerate form of magic.

Don't go condemning all blood mages, my Hawke and Warden have done good things with blood magic.

Jowan always tried to do the right thing. He thought blood magic was harmless. He trusted a revered hero's word that another individual was a threat. Most individuals would do the same with the limited amount of information he had. He's always tried, which makes him good in my book. He's just a terrible judge of character.

Innocent until proven guilty. If he is on a good path, there is no reason to condemn him for past mistakes.

If your corrupt doctor is as genuinely repentent as Jowan, I'd give him a second chance. He's putting in an effort to atone.

No, he gave up blood magic. Because he couldn't handle it. In the right hands, it can do more than ordinary magic.

[TheJediSaint]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Auintus wrote...

*SNIP*


It was a matter of willingness to risk something. Marethari was too afraid of what might happen to consider it worth the cost, while Merril was more concerned with what might be restored to her people to consider just how badly it could go wrong. A matter of experience, I think. Marethari understood that the Dalish may never completely reclaim their heritage while Merril was caught up in the past.

I agree. I just find it annoying when people claim that Marethari was somehow of inferior knowledge of an Eluvian than Merrill, when that simply wasn't the case.

I think one of the point's of Merrils character arc was that she couldn't accept that the glory days of Arlathan were gone and never to be recovered.   Too bad she never met my Warden, who would've given her a blank book and told her to make something new.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 24 octobre 2012 - 07:13 .

[Xilizhra]

TheJediSaint wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Auintus wrote...

*SNIP*


It was a matter of willingness to risk something. Marethari was too afraid of what might happen to consider it worth the cost, while Merril was more concerned with what might be restored to her people to consider just how badly it could go wrong. A matter of experience, I think. Marethari understood that the Dalish may never completely reclaim their heritage while Merril was caught up in the past.

I agree. I just find it annoying when people claim that Marethari was somehow of inferior knowledge of an Eluvian than Merrill, when that simply wasn't the case.

I think one of the point's of Merrils character arc was that she couldn't accept that the glory days of Arlathan were gone and never to be discovered.   To bad she never met my Warden, who would've given her a blank book and told her to make something new.

This notion is absurd. While it's possible that not every single fragment can be unearthed, Arlathan can and should be recreated as well as possible. As long as the humans will continue squishing the elves and holding the potential to wipe out their race through interbreeding, the elves will need their own land.

[Auintus]

Xilizhra wrote...

This notion is absurd. While it's possible that not every single fragment can be unearthed, Arlathan can and should be recreated as well as possible. As long as the humans will continue squishing the elves and holding the potential to wipe out their race through interbreeding, the elves will need their own land.

They need their own land, surely, but one who is lost to the past denies oneself a future. I either heard that somewhere or made it up, but that's beside the point.
TheJediSaint is right. Moving forward will help you more than looking back. Always.

[TheJediSaint]

Xilizhra wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Auintus wrote...

*SNIP*


It was a matter of willingness to risk something. Marethari was too afraid of what might happen to consider it worth the cost, while Merril was more concerned with what might be restored to her people to consider just how badly it could go wrong. A matter of experience, I think. Marethari understood that the Dalish may never completely reclaim their heritage while Merril was caught up in the past.

I agree. I just find it annoying when people claim that Marethari was somehow of inferior knowledge of an Eluvian than Merrill, when that simply wasn't the case.

I think one of the point's of Merrils character arc was that she couldn't accept that the glory days of Arlathan were gone and never to be discovered.   To bad she never met my Warden, who would've given her a blank book and told her to make something new.

This notion is absurd. While it's possible that not every single fragment can be unearthed, Arlathan can and should be recreated as well as possible. As long as the humans will continue squishing the elves and holding the potential to wipe out their race through interbreeding, the elves will need their own land.

It's hardly absurd.  Between the destruction wrought by the ancient Tevinters and the simple decay of time, too much was lost for Arlathan to be recreated.   And that not even taking into consideration that one of the main pillars of the ancient elven civilization was their immortality, which they are not likely to get back, no matter how much they try to isolate themselves.  

Now I have no issue with the elves getting a new homeland like the Dales.   But if they try to make a new Arlathan, I'm afraid that it would be just as doomed as the old Arlathan.  

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 24 octobre 2012 - 07:20 .

[esper]

TheJediSaint wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Auintus wrote...

*SNIP*


It was a matter of willingness to risk something. Marethari was too afraid of what might happen to consider it worth the cost, while Merril was more concerned with what might be restored to her people to consider just how badly it could go wrong. A matter of experience, I think. Marethari understood that the Dalish may never completely reclaim their heritage while Merril was caught up in the past.

I agree. I just find it annoying when people claim that Marethari was somehow of inferior knowledge of an Eluvian than Merrill, when that simply wasn't the case.

I think one of the point's of Merrils character arc was that she couldn't accept that the glory days of Arlathan were gone and never to be recovered.   Too bad she never met my Warden, who would've given her a blank book and told her to make something new.

That doesn't really excuse Marathari from becoming an abormination willingly, not moving the clan from the cursed mountain during 7 years, and believing a demons words.

And then we have not even mentioned poisioning the clan against Merill which she might had done unintentionally.

Merill at least had a good working failsafe in case of the worst scenerio. (Hawke has been proven capable of defeating pride demons). 

[Cody]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Auintus wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

Hardly means anything. A child can argue with a genius yet that does not mean the child knows what it's talking about.

It means that TEWR is wrong when he says that Marethari had nothing to say about the subject.

No it means that even people who do not know what they are talking about will argue against those who DO know what they are talking about.

Marethari had something to say yes, but it was bs blind ignorance with no basis for her arguments and accusations.

Except it wasn't. Marethari had the EXACT amount of previous exposure to an Eluvian as Merrill did. Merrill just thought that listening to a demon was a jolly good idea, Marethari thought that Eluvians was better left alone.

It was a matter of willingness to risk something. Marethari was too afraid of what might happen to consider it worth the cost, while Merril was more concerned with what might be restored to her people to consider just how badly it could go wrong. A matter of experience, I think. Marethari understood that the Dalish may never completely reclaim their heritage while Merril was caught up in the past.

I agree. I just find it annoying when people claim that Marethari was somehow of inferior knowledge of an Eluvian than Merrill, when that simply wasn't the case.

Except it is by the fact Merril has looked up every possible lore about the Eluvians, worked with it for years, and constantly studied it while Marethari did not. Mare admits to knowing nothing about them and did not bother to look up on them. Merril did. Therefore Mare DOES have inferior knowledge about them than Merril does.

[Xilizhra]

They need their own land, surely, but one who is lost to the past denies oneself a future. I either heard that somewhere or made it up, but that's beside the point.
TheJediSaint is right. Moving forward will help you more than looking back. Always.

It's rather difficult to move forward when you have no power. Personally, I'd be looking for a way to take control of the varterrals again over the Eluvian, but the Eluvian would be a great boon as well.

It's hardly absurd. Between the destruction wrought by the ancient Tevinters and the simple decay of time, too much was lost for Arlathan to be recreated. And that not even taking into consideration that one of the main pillars of the ancient elven civilization was the lose of their immortality, which they are not likely to get back, no matter how much they try to isolate themselves.

It's simple weakness to accept this. Immortality should be sought again, and this time finding a solution to block the Quickening corruption that humans spread, otherwise they'll forever remain akin to the darkspawn in how they blight elven life by their mere existence. Perhaps finding new as opposed to ancestral techniques for this, but it's a very worthwhile pursuit still.

[Auintus]

Xilizhra wrote...

They need their own land, surely, but one who is lost to the past denies oneself a future. I either heard that somewhere or made it up, but that's beside the point.
TheJediSaint is right. Moving forward will help you more than looking back. Always.

It's rather difficult to move forward when you have no power. Personally, I'd be looking for a way to take control of the varterrals again over the Eluvian, but the Eluvian would be a great boon as well.

It's hardly absurd. Between the destruction wrought by the ancient Tevinters and the simple decay of time, too much was lost for Arlathan to be recreated. And that not even taking into consideration that one of the main pillars of the ancient elven civilization was the lose of their immortality, which they are not likely to get back, no matter how much they try to isolate themselves.

It's simple weakness to accept this. Immortality should be sought again, and this time finding a solution to block the Quickening corruption that humans spread, otherwise they'll forever remain akin to the darkspawn in how they blight elven life by their mere existence. Perhaps finding new as opposed to ancestral techniques for this, but it's a very worthwhile pursuit still.

And looking back won't gain them power. Look at the little that they have. How much more could they possibly gain? Without a unified front, how could they possibly hope to stand against the might of Thedas? It simply isn't possible to return to Arlathan ways, if only because they were alone then. Acceptance will let you move forward, while childishly clinging to what once was will yield only death. Just let go.

[Medhia Nox]

I truly hope the elves spend all their time cravenly searching in their past.

The Eluvian really helped Arlathan - it's doing super right now... wait...

[TheJediSaint]

Xilizhra wrote...

It's rather difficult to move forward when you have no power. Personally, I'd be looking for a way to take control of the varterrals again over the Eluvian, but the Eluvian would be a great boon as well.

The power of Arlthan couldn't keep them from falling to the Tevinters.  How is it supposed to help them rise again?

Xilizhra wrote...
It's simple weakness to accept this. Immortality should be sought again, and this time finding a solution to block the Quickening corruption that humans spread, otherwise they'll forever remain akin to the darkspawn in how they blight elven life by their mere existence. Perhaps finding new as opposed to ancestral techniques for this, but it's a very worthwhile pursuit still.

The Elves at the height of their power couldn't find a way stop the quickening.   There probably isn't a solution.  It's not weakness to accept something that you cannot change.  If anything, the real weakness is refusing to accept that the world has changed and that you must change with it.

[Xilizhra]

And looking back won't gain them power. Look at the little that they have. How much more could they possibly gain? Without a unified front, how could they possibly hope to stand against the might of Thedas? It simply isn't possible to return to Arlathan ways, if only because they were alone then. Acceptance will let you move forward, while childishly clinging to what once was will yield only death. Just let go.

Tear down Thedas' front. The mage rebellion is already helping this; if the qunari and Tevinter go to open war again, they can be out of the picture as well. I can't make any conclusive claims about how this might go, but if the human nations are unable to unify, and the city elves can perform an exodus to the Dalish if they can pull together... then we might start to have something, especially if the mages ally with the elves. Territory and a bargaining position are the two most important factors to have for now, and those'll be easier to attain right now, with Thedas in chaos.

The power of Arlthan couldn't keep them from falling to the Tevinters.  How is it supposed to help them rise again?

Tevinter is no longer so strong, and the Andrastian nations are far weaker in magic still.

The Elves at the height of their power couldn't find a way stop the
quickening.   There probably isn't a solution.  It's not weakness to
accept something that you cannot change.  If anything, the real weakness
is refusing to accept that the world has changed and that you must
change with it.

The elves were defeated too quickly, and were possibly too set in their ways back then. There are many things in our own world that we could never have achieved if we believed we couldn't change them; just take flight, for instance. Or much of modern medicine.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 24 octobre 2012 - 07:32 .