2177 réponses à ce sujet

[Auintus]

Xilizhra wrote...

And looking back won't gain them power. Look at the little that they have. How much more could they possibly gain? Without a unified front, how could they possibly hope to stand against the might of Thedas? It simply isn't possible to return to Arlathan ways, if only because they were alone then. Acceptance will let you move forward, while childishly clinging to what once was will yield only death. Just let go.

Tear down Thedas' front. The mage rebellion is already helping this; if the qunari and Tevinter go to open war again, they can be out of the picture as well. I can't make any conclusive claims about how this might go, but if the human nations are unable to unify, and the city elves can perform an exodus to the Dalish if they can pull together... then we might start to have something, especially if the mages ally with the elves. Territory and a bargaining position are the two most important factors to have for now, and those'll be easier to attain right now, with Thedas in chaos.

The power of Arlthan couldn't keep them from falling to the Tevinters.  How is it supposed to help them rise again?

Tevinter is no longer so strong, and the Andrastian nations are far weaker in magic still.

Dumat's blood, you're serious, aren't you?
The Dalish are scattered, the city elves have accepted their fate, and the elves just don't have the manpower to wage a war. There is little to no reason for the mages to want the elves to have their own land again, especially considering humans would likely be the same sort of second-class that the elves are. It's just not a feasible conclusion.
In addition, the varterral and the Eluvian are proof that even if Arlathan artifacts are discovered, controling them is another matter entirely.

[LobselVith8]

Let's see: the elves who capitulated to the Chantry live in impoverished slums, where they can be "purged" if they get out of line, while the Dalish maintained their culture and seek to rebuild their culture and way of life. Constantly on the move because templars hunt them down, the Dalish seek to one day have a kingdom of their own, where they can teach their brethren everything they have forgotten. Merrill, one of the Dalish, sought to recreate an Eluvian, to provide the People with elven technology that might be able to irrevocably change the lives of elves across Thedas.

I really don't see the problem with the Dalish refusing to surrender their culture and religion, or recognizing that living under human rule would leave them in the vulnerable position that their city brethren are in. I also respect Merrill for being proactive about the plight of her people.

[TheJediSaint]

Xilizhra wrote...

Tevinter is no longer so strong, and the Andrastian nations are far weaker in magic still.

The elves haven't gotten any stronger.   And magic isn't the only source of power in the world.  The dailish simply cannot compete with human numbers, or their steel.

Xilizhra wrote...

The elves were defeated too quickly, and were possibly too set in their ways back then. There are many things in our own world that we could never have achieved if we believed we couldn't change them; just take flight, for instance. Or much of modern medicine.

Yes, but we achieved those things by moving forward, not by trying to recreate an idealized past.

[Xilizhra]

Dumat's blood, you're serious, aren't you?
The Dalish are scattered, the city elves have accepted their fate, and the elves just don't have the manpower to wage a war. There is little to no reason for the mages to want the elves to have their own land again, especially considering humans would likely be the same sort of second-class that the elves are. It's just not a feasible conclusion.
In addition, the varterral and the Eluvian are proof that even if Arlathan artifacts are discovered, controling them is another matter entirely.

Again, I need more information about the state of the world before committing to a solution. But I'm deadly serious. I haven't talked about this as much as the mage thing, because it's not a central topic to the narrative, but I'm just as adamant about it.

The elves haven't gotten any stronger.   And magic isn't the only source
of power in the world.  The dailish simply cannot compete with human
numbers, or their steel.

Not yet.

Yes, but we achieved those things by moving forward, not by trying to recreate an idealized past.

I didn't say we shouldn't move forward. But the Renaissance and Enlightenment were based heavily upon information recovered from centuries past, for instance. We should take any power or knowledge that we can get for this, regardless of whether it's ancient or new.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 24 octobre 2012 - 07:41 .

[TheJediSaint]

Xilizhra wrote...
Not yet.

Most likely not ever.  

Remember that Thedas is not dominated by the conflict between Humans and Elves.   There's the Qunari who want to wipe out everyone's culture and replace it with their own.  The conflcts between the mages an the templars.  And let's not forget the only conflict that really matters- the one against the Darkspawn.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 24 octobre 2012 - 07:45 .

[Xilizhra]

TheJediSaint wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Not yet.

And most likely not ever.  

Remember that Thedas is not dominated by the conflict between Humans and Elves.   There's the Qunari who want to wipe out everyone's culture and replace it with their own.  The conflcts between the mages an the templars.  And let's not forget the only conflict that really matters- the one against the Darkspawn.

I'm satisfying myself with the mage/templar one now, but expect to be able to move onto the elven one when possible. The qunari have potential, I suppose.

[TheJediSaint]

Xilizhra wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Not yet.

And most likely not ever.  

Remember that Thedas is not dominated by the conflict between Humans and Elves.   There's the Qunari who want to wipe out everyone's culture and replace it with their own.  The conflcts between the mages an the templars.  And let's not forget the only conflict that really matters- the one against the Darkspawn.

I'm satisfying myself with the mage/templar one now, but expect to be able to move onto the elven one when possible. The qunari have potential, I suppose.

All the conflicts of children who too easlity forget.   In peace, vigilence.  As they say.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 24 octobre 2012 - 07:46 .

[Xilizhra]

All the conflicts of children who too easlity forget. In peace, vigilence. As they say.

The darkspawn conflict just isn't that interesting. Bad monsters come from underground, we kick them back under, and the cycle repeats until they run out of archdemons. At least the Architect and Corypheus seemed to have more potential.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Not yet.

And most likely not ever.  

Remember that Thedas is not dominated by the conflict between Humans and Elves.   There's the Qunari who want to wipe out everyone's culture and replace it with their own.  The conflcts between the mages an the templars.  And let's not forget the only conflict that really matters- the one against the Darkspawn.

I'm satisfying myself with the mage/templar one now, but expect to be able to move onto the elven one when possible. The qunari have potential, I suppose.

If I were the darkspawn (or the Qunari for that matter) I would be very happy to hear that.

[Xilizhra]

If I were the darkspawn (or the Qunari for that matter) I would be very happy to hear that.

My point is that I find the darkspawn conflict dull, and the qunari one only marginally better.

[Vandicus]

Xilizhra wrote...

If I were the darkspawn (or the Qunari for that matter) I would be very happy to hear that.

My point is that I find the darkspawn conflict dull, and the qunari one only marginally better.

While I see what you mean about the darkspawn, as they serve the role of the generic chaotic evil horde/ancient evil, aren't Qunari rather unique as far as settings go?

The Dalish though, they're isolationists. Isolationism vs Internationalism pretty much always has the isolationists withering away. The lore we've been given rather suggests that this is what is slowly happening to their population.

*EDIT

The point being regarding the Dalish is that its sort've predictable where that story is going to go.

Modifié par Vandicus, 24 octobre 2012 - 07:56 .

[Xilizhra]

While I see what you mean about the darkspawn, as they serve the role of the generic chaotic evil horde/ancient evil, aren't Qunari rather unique as far as settings go?

I don't know. The qunari are basically scary dogmatic aliens, and we've had many, many of those for quite some time.

The Dalish though, they're isolationists. Isolationism vs Internationalism pretty much always has the isolationists withering away. The lore we've been given rather suggests that this is what is slowly happening to their population.

Then why doesn't Bioware do something less predictable? Have the isolationists win a few?

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

The Dalish though, they're isolationists. Isolationism vs Internstionalism pretty much always has the isolationists withering away.

Except the Dalish Warden can ask for the People to be given a homeland, which leads to the Hinterlands being given to the Dalish. There's a semi-permanent colony of Dalish on the border of Rivain. I don't think it's "predictable" where that story is going to go.

[Vandicus]

Xilizhra wrote...

While I see what you mean about the darkspawn, as they serve the role of the generic chaotic evil horde/ancient evil, aren't Qunari rather unique as far as settings go?

I don't know. The qunari are basically scary dogmatic aliens, and we've had many, many of those for quite some time.

The Dalish though, they're isolationists. Isolationism vs Internationalism pretty much always has the isolationists withering away. The lore we've been given rather suggests that this is what is slowly happening to their population.

Then why doesn't Bioware do something less predictable? Have the isolationists win a few?

The Qunari represent Blue&Orange morality, which when done poorly, is equivalent to "Evil Aliens". When done well, it can be quite unlike any conflicts seen before.

They might, I just don't think its highly likely. Anti-isolationist sentiment is such a strong core of many people's worldviews that it is practically requisite to have the isolationists learn the error of their ways(which I would bet is the "save the Dalish" route) or die out over time or through having no allies to help them. Isolationism in trade and national relations has been so thoroughly debunked in the real world at this point that it'd be difficult to write a plausible "isolationism is good/better/can win" story.

Modifié par Vandicus, 24 octobre 2012 - 08:04 .

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

The Dalish though, they're isolationists. Isolationism vs Internstionalism pretty much always has the isolationists withering away.

Except the Dalish Warden can ask for the People to be given a homeland, which leads to the Hinterlands being given to the Dalish. There's a semi-permanent colony of Dalish on the border of Rivain. I don't think it's "predictable" where that story is going to go.

If the Dalish pursue isolationism, they get wiped out/colonized over/destroyed by third party. If they decide to abandon isolationism, its again the theme of "isolationism doesn't work", though in such a situation its possible for the Dalish to thrive.

[TheJediSaint]

Xilizhra wrote...

Then why doesn't Bioware do something less predictable? Have the isolationists win a few?

Less predictable doesn't always mean better.  

[Xilizhra]

The Qunari represent Blue&Orange morality, which when done poorly, is equivalent to "Evil Aliens". When done well, it can be quite unlike any conflicts seen before.

It's... not done that well. The qunari aren't blue/orange, they just have different cultural values that wouldn't be all that strange in a human culture (and many humans do live there).

They might, I just don't think its highly likely. Anti-isolationist sentiment is such a strong core of many people's worldviews that it is practically requisite to have the isolationists learn the error of their ways(which I would bet is the "save the Dalish" route) or die out over time or through having no allies to help them. Isolationism in trade and national relations has been so thoroughly debunked in the real world at this point that it'd be difficult to write a plausible "isolationism is good/better/can win" story.

The setting's tried to justify imprisoning/arguably enslaving people of a certain biological factor, for metaphysical reasons. I see no reason to not give a similar chance for one people needing to live in isolation for, again, metaphysical reasons.

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

If the Dalish pursue isolationism, they get wiped out/colonized over/destroyed by third party.

Considering how Andrastians treat "heathens" who don't follow the Maker, it isn't surprising that the Dalish would seek their own nation where they could follow the Creators in peace. If the Inquisitor is able to side with certain factions, perhaps it might be possible to help the Dalish take advantage of the unrest with the Orleisan civil war and the Templar-Mage War for the People to reclaim the occupied Dales.

[General User]

TheJediSaint wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Then why doesn't Bioware do something less predictable? Have the isolationists win a few?

Less predictable doesn't always mean better.  

That's why I like the darkspawn: they are pure, unmitigated, unrepentant evil.  Having pillar that solid, that unyielding was a huge part of what made Origins as good as it was. 

Modifié par General User, 24 octobre 2012 - 08:14 .

[Vandicus]

Xilizhra wrote...

The Qunari represent Blue&Orange morality, which when done poorly, is equivalent to "Evil Aliens". When done well, it can be quite unlike any conflicts seen before.

It's... not done that well. The qunari aren't blue/orange, they just have different cultural values that wouldn't be all that strange in a human culture (and many humans do live there).

They might, I just don't think its highly likely. Anti-isolationist sentiment is such a strong core of many people's worldviews that it is practically requisite to have the isolationists learn the error of their ways(which I would bet is the "save the Dalish" route) or die out over time or through having no allies to help them. Isolationism in trade and national relations has been so thoroughly debunked in the real world at this point that it'd be difficult to write a plausible "isolationism is good/better/can win" story.

The setting's tried to justify imprisoning/arguably enslaving people of a certain biological factor, for metaphysical reasons. I see no reason to not give a similar chance for one people needing to live in isolation for, again, metaphysical reasons.

The Qunari are based off of the human ideal of (extreme)collectivism, but they're a society that succeeded at it. They literally live in a (extreme)collectivist orderly society with no capitalism or individualist influences. Now the attitude of "Rawrr, conquer everything that isn't us" could be toned down, but their culture by virtue of its successfull extreme collectivism is not like one we've seen in real life.

You mean if the Dalish were able to segregate themselves into special walled communities? I would point out that mages in the Circle aren't an example of a self-sustaining population. If mages weren't constantly coming from outside the Circle, the Circles would run out of mages.

[Xilizhra]

That's why I like the darkspawn: they are pure, unmitigated, unrepentant evil. Having pillar that solid, that unyielding was a huge part of what made Origins as good as it was.

No they're not. They lack free will; even the archdemons are more rabid than malevolent. They're basically a huge, violent insect swarm with swords.

The Qunari are based off of the human ideal of (extreme)collectivism, but they're a society that succeeded at it. They literally live in a (extreme)collectivist orderly society with no capitalism or individualist influences. Now the attitude of "Rawrr, conquer everything that isn't us" could be toned down, but their culture by virtue of its successfull extreme collectivism is not like one we've seen in real life.

That's the picture the qunari present. How true is it? We've never seen Qunadar and don't know, but we do know that the qunari don't always agree or always act for the benefit of all, otherwise there'd be no need for a secret police.

You mean if the Dalish were able to segregate themselves into special walled communities? I would point out that mages in the Circle aren't an example of a self-sustaining population. If mages weren't constantly coming from outside the Circle, the Circles would run out of mages.

I more meant their own nation.

[Vandicus]

Xilizhra wrote...

That's why I like the darkspawn: they are pure, unmitigated, unrepentant evil. Having pillar that solid, that unyielding was a huge part of what made Origins as good as it was.

No they're not. They lack free will; even the archdemons are more rabid than malevolent. They're basically a huge, violent insect swarm with swords.

The Qunari are based off of the human ideal of (extreme)collectivism, but they're a society that succeeded at it. They literally live in a (extreme)collectivist orderly society with no capitalism or individualist influences. Now the attitude of "Rawrr, conquer everything that isn't us" could be toned down, but their culture by virtue of its successfull extreme collectivism is not like one we've seen in real life.

That's the picture the qunari present. How true is it? We've never seen Qunadar and don't know, but we do know that the qunari don't always agree or always act for the benefit of all, otherwise there'd be no need for a secret police.

You mean if the Dalish were able to segregate themselves into special walled communities? I would point out that mages in the Circle aren't an example of a self-sustaining population. If mages weren't constantly coming from outside the Circle, the Circles would run out of mages.

I more meant their own nation.

If the Dalish get their own nation, they will either have to abandon isolationism, or another nation is just going to come along and conquer and/or colonize them. If they abandon it(which is a "good guy" option that I suspect Bioware will make available, that is persuading the Dalish that their isolationism will doom them), Dalish society/civilization could rebuild itself. The theme of "Isolationism is bad" still remains. I neglected to mention this possibility in the original post. Basically the way I see it, they'll stick with the theme of "isolationism is bad", and that leaves us with either the Dalish dying out or abandoning the practice.

[TheJediSaint]

General User wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Then why doesn't Bioware do something less predictable? Have the isolationists win a few?

Less predictable doesn't always mean better.  

That's why I like the darkspawn: they are pure, unmitigated, unrepentant evil.  Having pillar that solid, that unyielding was a huge part of what made Origins as good as it was. 

It's not that the Darkspawn are evil, which they are.  The Darkspawn are an omnipresent existental threat to everyone.  The dwarves in particular.  They are a plague that everyone should be working together to eradicate.  But instead the people of the Dragon Age setting are killing eachother over petty issues of race, religion, and ideology.  

That's what I find apealing about Dragon Age.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 24 octobre 2012 - 08:21 .

[Xilizhra]

If the Dalish get their own nation, they will either have to abandon isolationism, or another nation is just going to come along and conquer and/or colonize them. If they abandon it(which is a "good guy" option that I suspect Bioware will make available, that is persuading the Dalish that their isolationism will doom them), Dalish society/civilization could rebuild itself. The theme of "Isolationism is bad" still remains. I neglected to mention this possibility in the original post. Basically the way I see it, they'll stick with the theme of "isolationism is bad", and that leaves us with either the Dalish dying out or abandoning the practice.

But to open up to humans means that their immortality won't return, and I'll never accept this denial as being legitimate... unless they find a different way to secure it by blocking the Quickening in another manner. Which I would be open to. But if the Circle is being painted as legitimate in any manner, isolationism should be too. Either that or complete elf dominance over Thedas, with humans living in "safe" territories where they can't infect elves.

It's not that the Darkspawn are evil, which they are.  The Darkspawn are an omnipresent existental threat to everyone.  The
dwarves in particular.  They are a plague that everyone should be
working together to eradicate.  But instead the people of the Dragon Age
setting are killing eachother over petty issues of race, religion, and
ideology. 

It's not, however, all that they can ever be. The Architect can give them sapience and free will. I find this quite intriguing too.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 24 octobre 2012 - 08:31 .

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Merrill herself says that Marethari and her argued extensively about the subject. So just because Marethari didn't bother with arguing infront of her clans' guests, doesn't mean she didn't have more to say about the subject.

That doesn't mean Marethari knew anything about the Eluvians. Merrill says she's argued with Marethari and that Marethari will never understand what she's doing, Marethari says she wants nothing to do with them and wouldn't bother researching them ever, and we have Word of God telling us that Merrill did the research.

Their arguments boiled down to Marethari saying "No" out of irrational fear after the shard was cleansed and Merrill saying "Yes" out of reason.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It means that TEWR is wrong when he says that Marethari had nothing to say about the subject.

I never said she had nothing to say. I said she had nothing worthwhile to say, because she knew nothing about their history and said she didn't. 

Obviously, she had something to say about the subject. But that "something" was just "Merrill, these things are evil! VERY EVIIIIILLLLLLL!!!!!" in a Large Ham type of voice.

If she had something worthwhile to say, I would think she'd tell Hawke about the danger of the Eluvians since she asked Hawke in Act 1 "Please look after her".