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Blood Magic. Great power should come with great price


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#1651
TheJediSaint

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Xilizhra wrote...

But to open up to humans means that their immortality won't return, and I'll never accept this denial as being legitimate... unless they find a different way to secure it by blocking the Quickening in another manner. Which I would be open to. But if the Circle is being painted as legitimate in any manner, isolationism should be too. Either that or complete elf dominance over Thedas, with humans living in "safe" territories where they can't infect elves.


I think the pursuit of immortaltiy can only end on way for the elves-extinction.   Which would be tragiclly ironic.


Xilizhra wrote...
It's not, however, all that they can ever be. The Architect can give them sapience and free will. I find this quite intriguing too.


Darkspawn still carry the taint and can still spread it even if they become sapient.   They also still require Broodmothers to reporduce, and anyone who's done the Deep Roads quest in DAO will know how messed up that is.  Sapient or not, free or not, Darkspawn are a disease, plain and simple.  A blight, if you will.  And though the Archatect may have wanted what was best for his people, he was still a monster who wanted to spread the taint to all life.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 24 octobre 2012 - 08:41 .


#1652
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Xilizhra wrote...

If the Dalish get their own nation, they will either have to abandon isolationism, or another nation is just going to come along and conquer and/or colonize them. If they abandon it(which is a "good guy" option that I suspect Bioware will make available, that is persuading the Dalish that their isolationism will doom them), Dalish society/civilization could rebuild itself. The theme of "Isolationism is bad" still remains. I neglected to mention this possibility in the original post. Basically the way I see it, they'll stick with the theme of "isolationism is bad", and that leaves us with either the Dalish dying out or abandoning the practice.

But to open up to humans means that their immortality won't return, and I'll never accept this denial as being legitimate... unless they find a different way to secure it by blocking the Quickening in another manner. Which I would be open to. But if the Circle is being painted as legitimate in any manner, isolationism should be too. Either that or complete elf dominance over Thedas, with humans living in "safe" territories where they can't infect elves.

Thedas tried "elf dominance" before, it didn't end so well for the elves.

#1653
EmperorSahlertz

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CodyMelch wrote...

Except it is by the fact Merril has looked up every possible lore about the Eluvians, worked with it for years, and constantly studied it while Marethari did not. Mare admits to knowing nothing about them and did not bother to look up on them. Merril did. Therefore Mare DOES have inferior knowledge about them than Merril does.

At the end of the story arc, yes. And Merrill's oh so great knowledge of the Eluvians extended to a whooping: "Oh I think they used them for soemthing useful!" Yea.... What a great reportoire of knowledge that is! Matter of fact is this: They had the exact same starting point, having only had one encounter previously with an Eluvian. This Eluvian proved to be extremely dangerous. Marethari saw this as a warning to better leave them alone forevermore. Merrill thought that they could somehow be reclaimed and repurposed, despite knowing nothing about what they actually were. At the end of the story arc, Merrill still had no knowledge of what exactly the Eluvians were, and she had indirectly caused the death of her keeper, possibly clan.

#1654
Cody

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

Except it is by the fact Merril has looked up every possible lore about the Eluvians, worked with it for years, and constantly studied it while Marethari did not. Mare admits to knowing nothing about them and did not bother to look up on them. Merril did. Therefore Mare DOES have inferior knowledge about them than Merril does.

At the end of the story arc, yes. And Merrill's oh so great knowledge of the Eluvians extended to a whooping: "Oh I think they used them for soemthing useful!" Yea.... What a great reportoire of knowledge that is! Matter of fact is this: They had the exact same starting point, having only had one encounter previously with an Eluvian. This Eluvian proved to be extremely dangerous. Marethari saw this as a warning to better leave them alone forevermore. Merrill thought that they could somehow be reclaimed and repurposed, despite knowing nothing about what they actually were. At the end of the story arc, Merrill still had no knowledge of what exactly the Eluvians were, and she had indirectly caused the death of her keeper, possibly clan.


It was only dangerous due to the taint, which was fixed. And no she did know what they were. She knew that they were used as transportation devices as well as communication. She knows where it has come from, and it's make, and she has read up on it. Mare has done none of those things.

And the end of the arc she still knows what the Eluvians were and Marethari ends up brining about her own death as well as the death of her clans due to spreading lies, deceit, and hate about Merril to the clan, thus making them afraid and hateful towards her.

#1655
TheJediSaint

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CodyMelch wrote...

*Snip*

It was only dangerous due to the taint, which was fixed. And no she did know what they were. She knew that they were used as transportation devices as well as communication. She knows where it has come from, and it's make, and she has read up on it. Mare has done none of those things.

And the end of the arc she still knows what the Eluvians were and Marethari ends up brining about her own death as well as the death of her clans due to spreading lies, deceit, and hate about Merril to the clan, thus making them afraid and hateful towards her.


I see TEWR's delusions are contagious.  Merrll's clan turned against her because she ABANDONED them to seek out a power that she could not control.   Marithari died because of Merrill's actions, not her own.  Everything that Marithari did was a reaction to Merrill's actions.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 24 octobre 2012 - 10:43 .


#1656
Cody

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TheJediSaint wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

*Snip*

It was only dangerous due to the taint, which was fixed. And no she did know what they were. She knew that they were used as transportation devices as well as communication. She knows where it has come from, and it's make, and she has read up on it. Mare has done none of those things.

And the end of the arc she still knows what the Eluvians were and Marethari ends up brining about her own death as well as the death of her clans due to spreading lies, deceit, and hate about Merril to the clan, thus making them afraid and hateful towards her.


I see TEWR's delusions are contagious.  Merrll's clan turned against her because she ABANDONED them to seek out a power that she could not control.   Marithari died because of Merrill's actions, not her own.  Everything that Marithari did was a reaction to Merrill's actions.


Delusions my @ss, it's common sense. She left the clan, they can get a new apprentice for the keeper. As it is they already had a replacement for Mare after she died so it is hardly that big of a loss. They turning against her is one thing, but running away from her out of irrational fear, cursing her at first site, and attacking her without listening to reason? All this leads to Marethari spreading lies about Merril, saying she is an abomination, that she will release a taint from the mirror, saying she is possessed, spreading more and more fear around the clan.

Marithari died because she was an idiot. She allowed the demon to possess her and for what? Merril was not going to relase it, she states this beforehand. And if something were to happen then Hawk and co were to kill her, as is why she brought them with her. Marithari allowed the demon to possess her for no reason other than that she is senile.

Everything Marith did led to her own demise, and had a chance to lead to her clans demise due to villianizing Merril.

#1657
Auintus

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TheJediSaint wrote...

I see TEWR's delusions are contagious.  Merrll's clan turned against her because she ABANDONED them to seek out a power that she could not control.   Marithari died because of Merrill's actions, not her own.  Everything that Marithari did was a reaction to Merrill's actions.


Merril's clan turned on her because of fear of blood magic and fear of the Eluvian. She has demonstrated perfect control over her blood magic and, even if she wasn't smart enough to simply give up, she showed the intelligence to have Hawke there to kill her if she was possessed when going to meet the demon.
No Marethari died of her own actions. The alternative was letting Merril be possessed or die, but it was still her choice. Merril chose to take that risk and Marethari chose to pay the price for her.

#1658
Auintus

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CodyMelch wrote...

Marithari died because she was an idiot. She allowed the demon to possess her and for what? Merril was not going to relase it, she states this beforehand. And if something were to happen then Hawk and co were to kill her, as is why she brought them with her. Marithari allowed the demon to possess her for no reason other than that she is senile.

Everything Marith did led to her own demise, and had a chance to lead to her clans demise due to villianizing Merril.


Marethari wasn't an idiot. She suspected what the demon was attempting to do and knew that Merril was not being entirely reasonable when it came to the mirror. She chose to remove the chance that Merril would be possessed at the cost of her own life. It was a completely rational decision.

#1659
Cody

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Auintus wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

Marithari died because she was an idiot. She allowed the demon to possess her and for what? Merril was not going to relase it, she states this beforehand. And if something were to happen then Hawk and co were to kill her, as is why she brought them with her. Marithari allowed the demon to possess her for no reason other than that she is senile.

Everything Marith did led to her own demise, and had a chance to lead to her clans demise due to villianizing Merril.


Marethari wasn't an idiot. She suspected what the demon was attempting to do and knew that Merril was not being entirely reasonable when it came to the mirror. She chose to remove the chance that Merril would be possessed at the cost of her own life. It was a completely rational decision.


It was irrational because the demon had no way of being released without a mage releasing it. Otherwise it would not have been stuck there for so long. Merril had no intention of releasing it. Thus there was no reason for Marithari to release the demon and allow it to possess her.

#1660
silentassassin264

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Auintus wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

Marithari died because she was an idiot. She allowed the demon to possess her and for what? Merril was not going to relase it, she states this beforehand. And if something were to happen then Hawk and co were to kill her, as is why she brought them with her. Marithari allowed the demon to possess her for no reason other than that she is senile.

Everything Marith did led to her own demise, and had a chance to lead to her clans demise due to villianizing Merril.


Marethari wasn't an idiot. She suspected what the demon was attempting to do and knew that Merril was not being entirely reasonable when it came to the mirror. She chose to remove the chance that Merril would be possessed at the cost of her own life. It was a completely rational decision.

Marethari was an idiot.  Merrill was being reasonable.  She was going there with Hawke, a pretty good demonslayer, so if anything went wrong she would be culled like a circle mage's Harrowing.  Merrill knew the risk and was taking appropriate measures.  Marethari just up and went full stupid.  The demon could have taken over her earlier and gone on a rampage killing the entire clan before anyone could have stopped it.  

#1661
Auintus

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CodyMelch wrote...

It was irrational because the demon had no way of being released without a mage releasing it. Otherwise it would not have been stuck there for so long. Merril had no intention of releasing it. Thus there was no reason for Marithari to release the demon and allow it to possess her.


Like I said, Merril was in no way acting reasonable with regards to the mirror. A cunning demon would have had little difficulty pushing her a little farther.

#1662
Auintus

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silentassassin264 wrote...

Marethari was an idiot.  Merrill was being reasonable.  She was going there with Hawke, a pretty good demonslayer, so if anything went wrong she would be culled like a circle mage's Harrowing.  Merrill knew the risk and was taking appropriate measures.  Marethari just up and went full stupid.  The demon could have taken over her earlier and gone on a rampage killing the entire clan before anyone could have stopped it.  


Love makes you stupid, I suppose. The point is that she knew exactly what she was doing: preventing Merril from paying the price for her naivete.

#1663
LobselVith8

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Auintus wrote...

Love makes you stupid, I suppose. The point is that she knew exactly what she was doing: preventing Merrill from paying the price for her naïveté.


There's no evidence or basis for Marethari's assumption in Act III that Audacity could have escaped through the restored Eluvian, and it contradicts the assumptions Marethari had voiced in Act II. I'm not certain why you think Merrill was naive about the situation when she is clearly aware that all spirits are dangerous, and that there's no such thing as a good spirit.

Merrill dealt with Audacity twice - once for blood magic, and several years later when she attempted to communicate with Audacity about the Eluvian, where she told Hawke she had no intention of releasing it. We know Merrill studied the lore and extrapolated information from the shard, so I think she was quite informed about the situation. She was an intelligent, proactive person attempting to do something about the downward spiral the People were facing. I applaud Merrill for her efforts.

#1664
EmperorSahlertz

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silentassassin264 wrote...

Auintus wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

Marithari died because she was an idiot. She allowed the demon to possess her and for what? Merril was not going to relase it, she states this beforehand. And if something were to happen then Hawk and co were to kill her, as is why she brought them with her. Marithari allowed the demon to possess her for no reason other than that she is senile.

Everything Marith did led to her own demise, and had a chance to lead to her clans demise due to villianizing Merril.


Marethari wasn't an idiot. She suspected what the demon was attempting to do and knew that Merril was not being entirely reasonable when it came to the mirror. She chose to remove the chance that Merril would be possessed at the cost of her own life. It was a completely rational decision.

Marethari was an idiot.  Merrill was being reasonable.  She was going there with Hawke, a pretty good demonslayer, so if anything went wrong she would be culled like a circle mage's Harrowing.  Merrill knew the risk and was taking appropriate measures.  Marethari just up and went full stupid.  The demon could have taken over her earlier and gone on a rampage killing the entire clan before anyone could have stopped it.  

The entire point of Marethari's actions was to avoid Merrill die. So that Merrill had taken appropriate measures is kinda irrelevant.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 24 octobre 2012 - 11:56 .


#1665
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

Auintus wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

Marithari died because she was an idiot. She allowed the demon to possess her and for what? Merril was not going to relase it, she states this beforehand. And if something were to happen then Hawk and co were to kill her, as is why she brought them with her. Marithari allowed the demon to possess her for no reason other than that she is senile.

Everything Marith did led to her own demise, and had a chance to lead to her clans demise due to villianizing Merril.


Marethari wasn't an idiot. She suspected what the demon was attempting to do and knew that Merril was not being entirely reasonable when it came to the mirror. She chose to remove the chance that Merril would be possessed at the cost of her own life. It was a completely rational decision.

Marethari was an idiot.  Merrill was being reasonable.  She was going there with Hawke, a pretty good demonslayer, so if anything went wrong she would be culled like a circle mage's Harrowing.  Merrill knew the risk and was taking appropriate measures.  Marethari just up and went full stupid.  The demon could have taken over her earlier and gone on a rampage killing the entire clan before anyone could have stopped it.  

The entire point of Marethari's actions was to avoid Merrill die. So that Merrill had taken appropriate measures is kinda irrelevant.


Didn't Marethari say that the demon didn't need a host if it came through the mirror? If that's the case, Marethari is a complete idiot. The demon would have come through intending to kill Merril, and met her, Hawke, and up to two other characters, which Marethari suspects would have ended in Merrill's death. Yeah, alright, fine always a risk of that. The problem is that Marethari then tells Merrill this, gets hijacked by the demon, and attacks Merrill. The optimistic reaction to this is that Merrill is in exactly as much danger. The pessimistic one is that the demon now has its own power plus Marethari's, thus putting Merrill in more danger. And this is without covering the fact that the clan might attack Merrill even if she survived the demon. She'd probably survive. She might not.

And there's the above stuff where she's getting the clan killed in favor of Merril.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 25 octobre 2012 - 12:15 .


#1666
EmperorSahlertz

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Marethari is replaced by her second.... first.... if she dies. And I think all Marethari says is that the Demon intends to use the Eluvian as a way to escape its prison. A demon can't exist in Thedas without a host, so it would have to posses someone, which would most likely be Merrill in the proposed scenario.

#1667
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Marethari is replaced by her second.... first.... if she dies. And I think all Marethari says is that the Demon intends to use the Eluvian as a way to escape its prison. A demon can't exist in Thedas without a host, so it would have to posses someone, which would most likely be Merrill in the proposed scenario.


Okay, I looked the scene up on Youtube and you were right about part of that. All she says is that the Demon intends to escape through the mirror and make Merrill its victim, nothing about it being able to take its true form and nothing about whether Merrill dies or gets possessed. On the other hand, demons do not in fact require hosts. The Pride Demon Codex entry states that demons can appear in their true forms in this world. Still, the demon probably would have tried to possess her instead of killing her, so if Marethari's only priority is to save Merrill at any cost, she did that the right way. The only problem is that that's the wrong priority under the circumstances, especially since she had already ensured that the clan would not accept Merrill.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 25 octobre 2012 - 12:39 .


#1668
Vit246

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Marethari never explained how the demon would escape through the Eluvian. Or how it would escape out of its prison where it is cut off from the Fade.

Merrill wants to talk to the demon again, that means she will get possessed or the demon escapes?

How come that did not happen 7 years ago when she most certainly talked to the demon for blood magic the first time?

Modifié par Vit246, 25 octobre 2012 - 12:55 .


#1669
BlueMagitek

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Auintus wrote...

I'm just not sure that being insane is conducive to protecting the innocent. Meredith shows how well that went.

Not hatin' anybody. Just pointing out that a conversation went in literal circles and he was part of it. Wait...I remember. He started insulting my blood mage. Then he insulted me. Never mind, I will be hatin'.

I think it was just the fact that the remains of Andraste, assuming their power was of divine origin, were contaminated. Not  a literal depowering, just that it's part-Andraste, part-dragon blood.

You make an excellent point. I don't see a reason for Eamon to be the only one who canget things started, especially when half of Fereldan is aware that Logain has proven incapable of stopping the Blight. You just needed a patron to get things started. Teagan should have been able to do that.


Most of the Templars shown in Ferelden are completely reasonable.  You have one who is Lyrium addled at the Chantry, and you have others who are letting Apostates go (Lothering) because they recognize that their duty to the people is more important.  Meredith failed a d100 Sanity roll with some Red Lyrium. 

Oh come now, we all have roles to play and the cycle continues on again.  Don't hate the player, hate the cycle.  ;)

Eh, considering that Leliana is willing to steal from the poor and post a thong on the Chanter's board, I don't think some littering is that important to her.  

Yeah.  I was very disappointed when I went to Haven asap (prior to going to Redcliffe) and Fulgrim is like "Good job destroying those Ashes, now Andraste can live.  *brofist*.  Oh, you kept some?  Eh, whatevs."  Really?  I mean come on now.  At least claim it's a gift allowed by Dragon-draste and to be used for me, her Champion. <_<

#1670
Auintus

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BlueMagitek wrote...

Most of the Templars shown in Ferelden are completely reasonable.  You have one who is Lyrium addled at the Chantry, and you have others who are letting Apostates go (Lothering) because they recognize that their duty to the people is more important.  Meredith failed a d100 Sanity roll with some Red Lyrium. 

Oh come now, we all have roles to play and the cycle continues on again.  Don't hate the player, hate the cycle.  ;)

Eh, considering that Leliana is willing to steal from the poor and post a thong on the Chanter's board, I don't think some littering is that important to her.  

Yeah.  I was very disappointed when I went to Haven asap (prior to going to Redcliffe) and Fulgrim is like "Good job destroying those Ashes, now Andraste can live.  *brofist*.  Oh, you kept some?  Eh, whatevs."  Really?  I mean come on now.  At least claim it's a gift allowed by Dragon-draste and to be used for me, her Champion. <_<


True. According to Anders and what we've seen, the templars have their share of bad eggs, but most seem reasonable.

Not gonna hate the cycle when he made it personal. Not that that carries over into any other discussion I've had with him...:huh: And I thought I was good at holding grudges.

I...don't remember that part...and I don't want to. I was just talking about why they weren't magic anymore.

Yeah, most of the main quests were along the lines of "Accomplish this, here's a number of ways how to do it. It really doesn't affect this game much."

#1671
BlueMagitek

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Auintus wrote...

True. According to Anders and what we've seen, the templars have their share of bad eggs, but most seem reasonable.

Not gonna hate the cycle when he made it personal. Not that that carries over into any other discussion I've had with him...:huh: And I thought I was good at holding grudges.

I...don't remember that part...and I don't want to. I was just talking about why they weren't magic anymore.

Yeah, most of the main quests were along the lines of "Accomplish this, here's a number of ways how to do it. It really doesn't affect this game much."


What bothers me is how everyone takes Kirkwall as the average case when it seems to be the worst case.  Maybe, maybe the Mage Prison (the name escapes me, Aenor?) is worse, but Kirkwall certainly isn't average.

See, now we have things to work on. =D
I also see you may have encountered one of the players we were talking about.  How fun.

Oh?  But I still don't see why Dragon Blood would ruin it; if anything, it should strengthen it.  Even more free healing!

Well, that's not entirely true.  At least you got to choose a side in Orzammar/Circle, with the Dalish giving you three choices.  You.... rescued Eomen.  No matter what. =0

#1672
Cody

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Vit246 wrote...

Marethari never explained how the demon would escape through the Eluvian. Or how it would escape out of its prison where it is cut off from the Fade.

Merrill wants to talk to the demon again, that means she will get possessed or the demon escapes?

How come that did not happen 7 years ago when she most certainly talked to the demon for blood magic the first time?


Thars using your noodle. If it could escape so easily it would have done so a loooong time ago. Hell even before Merril learned blood magic from it both her AND Marithari went up to talk to it. Nothing happened to them.

Modifié par CodyMelch, 25 octobre 2012 - 02:06 .


#1673
TEWR

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

At the end of the story arc, yes. And Merrill's oh so great knowledge of the Eluvians extended to a whooping: "Oh I think they used them for soemthing useful!"


Incorrect. She says that they were used for communication in the days of Arlathan, which is more then Ariane's clan knew about them and the same that Finn initially knew about them.

Anyone who bothers to study the Eluvians knows that was the very least of their capabilities. The only person that exceeds Merrill in knowledge of the Eluvians is Morrigan.


This Eluvian proved to be extremely dangerous.


No, that was the Taint, which Merrill cleansed the shard of by using blood magic to amplify the healing magic Marethari had taught her prior to the Dalish Elf Origin. That same magic, when used by Marethari, was capable of fighting the Taint in an unamplified state.


Merrill thought that they could somehow be reclaimed and repurposed, despite knowing nothing about what they actually were. At the end of the story arc, Merrill still had no knowledge of what exactly the Eluvians were, and she had indirectly caused the death of her keeper, possibly clan.


Again, she knows what they're capable of, insofar as anyone in Thedas who studies them knows -- the only exception being Morrigan.

And the Keeper's death/clan's death was their own fault entirely. Marethari spread baseless lies about Merrill to the clan, which caused them to fear and revile her -- to the point that they think an Axe Crazy Varterral is safer then Merrill.

By Act 3, they're looking for a scapegoat for all the troubles they've suffered, and see Merrill as the perfect one -- in part due to the lies Marethari spread 3 years prior and due to being unable to see the truth of what Marethari did: that she failed to inform the clan of what she was going to do, became possessed and possibly endangering them, and how Merrill did the clan's duty after Marethari intentionally freed a Demon that was sundered from the Fade and trapped in a demonic Buddha statue for centuries and centuries -- something the game and short story tells us.

A demon can't exist in Thedas without a host, so it would have to posses someone, which would most likely be Merrill in the proposed scenario.


I'd argue that it being bound to the statue for centuries and centuries, sundered from the Fade, and unable to free itself constitutes it having a host.

One it detests, but also one it couldn't do much about.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

The pessimistic one is that the demon now has its own power plus Marethari's, thus putting Merrill in more danger


This is certainly part of why I view her actions as idiotic. Marethari thinks Merrill can't handle a weakened Demon if it managed to somehow get free and go for Merrill, but thinks she can handle her own mother-figure and mentor possessed by a Pride Demon

#1674
Auintus

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BlueMagitek wrote...

What bothers me is how everyone takes Kirkwall as the average case when it seems to be the worst case.  Maybe, maybe the Mage Prison (the name escapes me, Aenor?) is worse, but Kirkwall certainly isn't average.

See, now we have things to work on. =D
I also see you may have encountered one of the players we were talking about.  How fun.

Oh?  But I still don't see why Dragon Blood would ruin it; if anything, it should strengthen it.  Even more free healing!

Well, that's not entirely true.  At least you got to choose a side in Orzammar/Circle, with the Dalish giving you three choices.  You.... rescued Eomen.  No matter what. =0


Cullen, as of DA2, seems to be a shining example of what a templar can and should be. He sees it as a duty that must be done for the greater good, but does not take it to any extreme.

I think that the fact that it was Andraste made it magic. If it was just lyrium or whatever then the dragon's blood would make it turn you into superman.

In Orzammar, the only quest that changes is the first favor. All other quests are the same. The circle plays out the same with the exception of the presence or absence of Wynne. The Dalish actually plays quite a bit differently depending on your choice, I'll give you that.

#1675
Xilizhra

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Cullen, as of DA2, seems to be a shining example of what a templar can and should be. He sees it as a duty that must be done for the greater good, but does not take it to any extreme.

Cullen is a proven evil murderer as of The Last Straw, due to his participation in the Annulment. He's an accessory to genocide and that must be called to account; if he redeems himself via action by fighting for the mage rebellion, that's acceptable, or if he denies and dies, that works as well.

True. According to Anders and what we've seen, the templars have their share of bad eggs, but most seem reasonable.

Who the templars are as people is completely irrelevant. All that counts is what they do. And if they fight to suppress the mages, then all of them are lethally painted targets so long as they keep fighting.