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[Auintus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Cullen, as of DA2, seems to be a shining example of what a templar can and should be. He sees it as a duty that must be done for the greater good, but does not take it to any extreme.

Cullen is a proven evil murderer as of The Last Straw, due to his participation in the Annulment. He's an accessory to genocide and that must be called to account; if he redeems himself via action by fighting for the mage rebellion, that's acceptable, or if he denies and dies, that works as well.

True. According to Anders and what we've seen, the templars have their share of bad eggs, but most seem reasonable.

Who the templars are as people is completely irrelevant. All that counts is what they do. And if they fight to suppress the mages, then all of them are lethally painted targets so long as they keep fighting.

I would direct  you to the Stanley Milgram's experiment 18, which has demonstrated that normal human beings can and will do terrible things under orders. He advocates sparing mages who surrender. He may take his sweet time about it, but he is the first aside from Hawke to side against Meredith.
Meredith: Will you accept responsibility if these are blood mages?
Cullen: Yes. That's what I believe being a templar is about.

...You do realize you ran around and killed...everything for the entire game, right? So the fact that you have reasons for doing so is completely irrelevent?

Modifié par Auintus, 25 octobre 2012 - 05:07 .

[Xilizhra]

I would direct you to the Stanley Milgram's experiment 18, which has demonstrated that normal human beings can and will do terrible things under orders. He advocates sparing mages who surrender. He may take his sweet time about it, but he is the first aside from Hawke to side against Meredith.

"I was just following orders." An excuse that our own international legal system has officially declared bull****. I see no reason to not stand by that.

...You do realize you ran around and killed...everything for the entire game, right? So the fact that you have reasons for doing so is completely irrelevent?

Allow me to clarify. The templars are enemy soldiers. Who they are as people, in the context of wartime, is irrelevant so long as they remain enemy soldiers.

[EmperorSahlertz]

So it is murder to kill someone from the side you sympathize with during a war, but to kill someone from the side you dont sympathize with, is all just fine and dandy?

[BlueMagitek]

Auintus wrote...

Cullen, as of DA2, seems to be a shining example of what a templar can and should be. He sees it as a duty that must be done for the greater good, but does not take it to any extreme.

I think that the fact that it was Andraste made it magic. If it was just lyrium or whatever then the dragon's blood would make it turn you into superman.

In Orzammar, the only quest that changes is the first favor. All other quests are the same. The circle plays out the same with the exception of the presence or absence of Wynne. The Dalish actually plays quite a bit differently depending on your choice, I'll give you that.

I would say that Gregoire or the Lothering Templars are the shining ideal of Templars above Cullen.  But I may be a bit biased.  

See, we never try any Dragon-draste ash, so we just don't know.  The Guardian is just mad that her ashes were defiled.

This is true.  It really doesn't matter though, I imagine that Enderin would be the new King if we ever go to Orzammar, as he cannot die.  The Circle definately takes a different tone, though. =D

Oh, I see you met Xil.  Well, you two have fun now.

[Xilizhra]

So it is murder to kill someone from the side you sympathize with during a war, but to kill someone from the side you dont sympathize with, is all just fine and dandy?

If you're at war with them, yes.

[Medhia Nox]

@EmperorSahlertz: That's the usual view of a conquering army - yes. (I'm agreeing with you here.)

@BlueMagitek: Yes, Gregoire is exactly how I want the Templars. I felt he was compassionate to what the mage was going through - but stood by his convictions that his job was important. He also seemed very protective of the mages - and often said: "Us"

But Cullen was fairly cool in DA:O - he's certainly not bloodthirsty - he says that some Templars relish killing mages turn abomination, but not him. I don't hold it against him that he's terrified after holding his own against abominations and psychotic mages during the fall of the Circle Tower.

[Xilizhra]

@BlueMagitek: Yes, Gregoire is exactly how I want the Templars. I felt he was compassionate to what the mage was going through - but stood by his convictions that his job was important. He also seemed very protective of the mages - and often said: "Us"

You do realize he has a history of physically abusing pregnant women, yes?

[Auintus]

Xilizhra wrote...

I would direct you to the Stanley Milgram's experiment 18, which has demonstrated that normal human beings can and will do terrible things under orders. He advocates sparing mages who surrender. He may take his sweet time about it, but he is the first aside from Hawke to side against Meredith.

"I was just following orders." An excuse that our own international legal system has officially declared bull****. I see no reason to not stand by that.

...You do realize you ran around and killed...everything for the entire game, right? So the fact that you have reasons for doing so is completely irrelevent?

Allow me to clarify. The templars are enemy soldiers. Who they are as people, in the context of wartime, is irrelevant so long as they remain enemy soldiers.

Merely a reason why you cannot judge a person as evil on the basis of what they've done under orders.

Now that makes a degree of sense. If someone is your enemy, kill them. However, not all templars want to annul the Circles.

[LobselVith8]

Auintus wrote...

I would direct  you to the Stanley Milgram's experiment 18, which has demonstrated that normal human beings can and will do terrible things under orders. He advocates sparing mages who surrender. He may take his sweet time about it, but he is the first aside from Hawke to side against Meredith.
Meredith: Will you accept responsibility if these are blood mages?
Cullen: Yes. That's what I believe being a templar is about.

...You do realize you ran around and killed...everything for the entire game, right? So the fact that you have reasons for doing so is completely irrelevent?

Hawke did kill people - including every templar in his path before he encountered Meredith, so why did Cullen jump to his defense against Meredith? Hawke didn't even surrender in that scene, he looks ready to continue killing templars.

[Xilizhra]

Merely a reason why you cannot judge a person as evil on the basis of what they've done under orders.

All it means is that many people have the potential for great evil. Probably all of them.

Now that makes a degree of sense. If someone is your enemy, kill them. However, not all templars want to annul the Circles.

Then they can surrender.

Hawke did kill people - including every templar in his path before he
encountered Meredith, so why did Cullen jump to his defense against
Meredith? Hawke didn't even surrender in that scene, he looks ready to
continue killing templars.

Because, technically, Hawke isn't part of the Circle and isn't eligible to be Annulled, so they wouldn't be allowed to aim to kill right away, just try to arrest and then kill if there was resistance. To be honest, that was kind of a crappy sequence, but this is the best sense I can make out of it.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 25 octobre 2012 - 02:00 .

[Auintus]

BlueMagitek wrote...

I would say that Gregoire or the Lothering Templars are the shining ideal of Templars above Cullen.  But I may be a bit biased.  

See, we never try any Dragon-draste ash, so we just don't know.  The Guardian is just mad that her ashes were defiled.

This is true.  It really doesn't matter though, I imagine that Enderin would be the new King if we ever go to Orzammar, as he cannot die.  The Circle definately takes a different tone, though. =D

Oh, I see you met Xil.  Well, you two have fun now.

Gregoire seems over-protective, if anything, which is probably not bad. I never really counted the Lothering templars because they have no Circle. Although they are definately an example of serving the common good, even beyond templar duties.

He did? Oh, I walked straight through the flames and he attacked me.

Xil? Oh, that one. I should just quit with my sanity intact, huh?

[Auintus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hawke did kill people - including every templar in his path before he encountered Meredith, so why did Cullen jump to his defense against Meredith? Hawke didn't even surrender in that scene, he looks ready to continue killing templars.

Most of that killing, at least for a Hawke that sides with the mages, is in a degree of self-defense. And if you side with the templars, Meredith turns on you as a new threat anyway.

[Auintus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Merely a reason why you cannot judge a person as evil on the basis of what they've done under orders.

All it means is that many people have the potential for great evil. Probably all of them.

Now that makes a degree of sense. If someone is your enemy, kill them. However, not all templars want to annul the Circles.

Then they can surrender.

So I should just kill everyone because they represent a potential threat? Great plan.

Woah, no one said anything about surrendering. Just because they don't want mages murdered or abused doesn't mean that they don't still feel that mages need to be trained, and seperated from the average populice until they are.

[LobselVith8]

Auintus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hawke did kill people - including every templar in his path before he encountered Meredith, so why did Cullen jump to his defense against Meredith? Hawke didn't even surrender in that scene, he looks ready to continue killing templars.

Most of that killing, at least for a Hawke that sides with the mages, is in a degree of self-defense. And if you side with the templars, Meredith turns on you as a new threat anyway.

I'm addressing the pro-mage path: Meredith orders the execution of hundreds of men, women, and children to appease a hypothetical mob, but Cullen doesn't stop her. Cullen intervenes only when she threatens templar-killing Hawke, because now he feels she's crossing the line.

[Medhia Nox]

@LobselVith8: I think that has more to do with it being a game.

Even though Ander's is actually the main character of DA 2 - Hawke has to be relevant "somehow".

[TK514]

Xilizhra wrote...

Merely a reason why you cannot judge a person as evil on the basis of what they've done under orders.

All it means is that many people have the potential for great evil. Probably all of them.

Now that makes a degree of sense. If someone is your enemy, kill them. However, not all templars want to annul the Circles.

Then they can surrender.

For the sake of discussion, what would you do with Templars that did surrender?  If you've said before, I apologize because I missed it or have forgotten.

[Xilizhra]

So I should just kill everyone because they represent a potential threat? Great plan.

Kill every enemy combatant still fighting you.

Woah, no one said anything about surrendering. Just because they don't want mages murdered or abused doesn't mean that they don't still feel that mages need to be trained, and seperated from the average populice until they are.

It's not hard. They have two choices: surrender or die. Or they could be taken prisoner, I suppose, but I'm not sure what'd happen there.

For the sake of discussion, what would you do with Templars that did surrender? If you've said before, I apologize because I missed it or have forgotten.

It depends on the circumstances. My ideal solution would be to get them to fight for my side, but I'd be willing to let them stay as contributing civilians in territory we controlled.

[TK514]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Auintus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hawke did kill people - including every templar in his path before he encountered Meredith, so why did Cullen jump to his defense against Meredith? Hawke didn't even surrender in that scene, he looks ready to continue killing templars.

Most of that killing, at least for a Hawke that sides with the mages, is in a degree of self-defense. And if you side with the templars, Meredith turns on you as a new threat anyway.

I'm addressing the pro-mage path: Meredith orders the execution of hundreds of men, women, and children to appease a hypothetical mob, but Cullen doesn't stop her. Cullen intervenes only when she threatens templar-killing Hawke, because now he feels she's crossing the line.

Not that I give a fig about Cullen, but I think you're being a bit too hard on him here.  Before Hawke shows up, Cullen doesn't have any real options.  He can't compete with Meredith, so opposition merely ends up with him getting executed and nothing changing.  That's not an option, that's just stupid suicide.  Hawke showing up, however, represents a viable alternative.  Cullen might not be able to oppose Meredith on his own, but Hawke can, so by siding with Hawke, Cullen can make a difference.

[Xilizhra]

Not that I give a fig about Cullen, but I think you're being a bit too hard on him here. Before Hawke shows up, Cullen doesn't have any real options. He can't compete with Meredith, so opposition merely ends up with him getting executed and nothing changing. That's not an option, that's just stupid suicide. Hawke showing up, however, represents a viable alternative. Cullen might not be able to oppose Meredith on his own, but Hawke can, so by siding with Hawke, Cullen can make a difference.

He could side with Hawke, join Hawke's team and bring any other rebellious templars with him, when they first see each other (which is when Orsino is still alive).

[Vit246]

Cullen turning on Meredith because she turns on Hawke is OOC: Out-Of-Character. Its inconsistent.

It makes so very little sense. Cullen is an extremist templar, not a moderate. His previous experiences justify him being one. He has virtually no problem with the Tranquil Solution when confronted and consistently believes that mages are not people, but weapons that can set a whole city on fire on a fit.

I'm not convinced by his sudden change of heart. If anything, I'm more inclined to believe that he turned on Meredith just to save his own skin.

[BlueMagitek]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@BlueMagitek: Yes, Gregoire is exactly how I want the Templars. I felt he was compassionate to what the mage was going through - but stood by his convictions that his job was important. He also seemed very protective of the mages - and often said: "Us"

But Cullen was fairly cool in DA:O - he's certainly not bloodthirsty - he says that some Templars relish killing mages turn abomination, but not him. I don't hold it against him that he's terrified after holding his own against abominations and psychotic mages during the fall of the Circle Tower.

Yeah, Gregoire seemed very level headed.  So was Irving.  Irving also did not put up with demon antics. I think that was the one time in the game he raised his voice.

I can't blame Cullen for being bloodthristy after the Broken Circle.  Someone needs to magic up some psychologists, damn. 

Xilizhra wrote...
You do realize he has a history of physically abusing pregnant women, yes?

Such is life in Thedas.

Auintus wrote...

Gregoire seems over-protective, if
anything, which is probably not bad. I never really counted the
Lothering templars because they have no Circle. Although they are
definately an example of serving the common good, even beyond templar
duties.

He did? Oh, I walked straight through the flames and he attacked me.

Xil? Oh, that one. I should just quit with my sanity intact, huh?

Well, you know, Darkspawn and blood mages running around is usually a sign for caution.  He also seems to be in at 100 Rival with Irving, so the Grand Enchanter and Knight Commander are on the same page.  He shuts down Cullen's call for annullment as long as Irving is alive (and considering we only see Wynne left, he's more or less the only senior enchanter around).  I would count Lothering because they are responsible for hunting Apostates and take lyrium and what have you.

He does? I didn't know you could do that.  I'll need to try it again when I get to Haven in my new playthrough.  And then reload, because that's now how my current character rolls.  Just let Leliana and Wynne handle the religious stuff.

Nah, it's more fun this way.

[TK514]

Xilizhra wrote...

Not that I give a fig about Cullen, but I think you're being a bit too hard on him here. Before Hawke shows up, Cullen doesn't have any real options. He can't compete with Meredith, so opposition merely ends up with him getting executed and nothing changing. That's not an option, that's just stupid suicide. Hawke showing up, however, represents a viable alternative. Cullen might not be able to oppose Meredith on his own, but Hawke can, so by siding with Hawke, Cullen can make a difference.

He could side with Hawke, join Hawke's team and bring any other rebellious templars with him, when they first see each other (which is when Orsino is still alive).

But thing have not quite gotten to the point of annulment when Cullen and Hawke first meet.  He's only recently arrived in Kirkwall, and while things certainly look bad, he doesn't have any reason to believe they can't be turned around.

Or do you mean he meets up with Hawke prior to joining him in the final confrontation, in which case I apologize for not remembering Cullen's part in the final show down as well as I should.

I'd still say, on the whole, that it's only once Hawke actually starts the fight with Meredith that Cullen (and his fellow rebellious Templars) figure they don't have anything else to lose by supporting Hawke over Meredith.  This is particularly true in a Pro-Templar Hawke scenario, when it becomes clear that she's just as likely at that point to kill everything still moving.  It might be moderately spineless, but I can't really blame them for not committing suicide-by-Meredith.

[TK514]

Vit246 wrote...

Cullen turning on Meredith because she turns on Hawke is OOC: Out-Of-Character. Its inconsistent.

It makes so very little sense. Cullen is an extremist templar, not a moderate. His previous experiences justify him being one. He has virtually no problem with the Tranquil Solution when confronted and consistently believes that mages are not people, but weapons that can set a whole city on fire on a fit.

I'm not convinced by his sudden change of heart. If anything, I'm more inclined to believe that he turned on Meredith just to save his own skin.

Is it?  My impression of Cullen is that he becomes increasingly moderate over the course of DA II.  For example how he can be convined to allow the Templar initiate to remain within the Order, with reasonable caveats, in spite of having every reason to suspect the possibility of possession.  He also, as I recall, expresses doubt over the course of Kirkwall's Templars later in the game, though the details escape me.  I could be mistaken.

[Xilizhra]

Such is life in Thedas.

As my life is kicking the crap out of templars.

Or do you mean he meets up with Hawke prior to joining him in the final confrontation, in which case I apologize for not remembering Cullen's part in the final show down as well as I should.

Yes.

I'd still say, on the whole, that it's only once Hawke actually starts the fight with Meredith that Cullen (and his fellow rebellious Templars) figure they don't have anything else to lose by supporting Hawke over Meredith. This is particularly true in a Pro-Templar Hawke scenario, when it becomes clear that she's just as likely at that point to kill everything still moving. It might be moderately spineless, but I can't really blame them for not committing suicide-by-Meredith.

If they turned on Meredith all at once, they don't have any reason to think they wouldn't win. They wouldn't know about her leaping abilities, inhuman resilience and statue animation powers.

[Cody]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@BlueMagitek: Yes, Gregoire is exactly how I want the Templars. I felt he was compassionate to what the mage was going through - but stood by his convictions that his job was important. He also seemed very protective of the mages - and often said: "Us"

But Cullen was fairly cool in DA:O - he's certainly not bloodthirsty - he says that some Templars relish killing mages turn abomination, but not him. I don't hold it against him that he's terrified after holding his own against abominations and psychotic mages during the fall of the Circle Tower.

Yeah, Gregoire seemed very level headed.  So was Irving.  Irving also did not put up with demon antics. I think that was the one time in the game he raised his voice.

As was said, Gregoire has an attendency to abuse the mages under him if he is angry. Such as this pregnant women for example who, did not know where a certain accused blood mage was at. In anger he punches her in the gut (I think it was hard enough for her to cough out blood which would most likely kill the baby).

Yea not exactly the shining example of a templar. He did this in one of the Dragon Age comics.