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[TK514]

Xilizhra wrote...

Such is life in Thedas.

As my life is kicking the crap out of templars.

Or do you mean he meets up with Hawke prior to joining him in the final confrontation, in which case I apologize for not remembering Cullen's part in the final show down as well as I should.

Yes.

I'd still say, on the whole, that it's only once Hawke actually starts the fight with Meredith that Cullen (and his fellow rebellious Templars) figure they don't have anything else to lose by supporting Hawke over Meredith. This is particularly true in a Pro-Templar Hawke scenario, when it becomes clear that she's just as likely at that point to kill everything still moving. It might be moderately spineless, but I can't really blame them for not committing suicide-by-Meredith.

If they turned on Meredith all at once, they don't have any reason to think they wouldn't win. They wouldn't know about her leaping abilities, inhuman resilience and statue animation powers.

True, but at the same time, there's no reason for Cullen to believe he wouldn't be fighting Meredith alone.  They're not rebels until Cullen relieves her of command, at which point she accuses them all of being blood mage thralls and orders them executed.  Which really leaves them no choice.

[Auintus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm addressing the pro-mage path: Meredith orders the execution of hundreds of men, women, and children to appease a hypothetical mob, but Cullen doesn't stop her. Cullen intervenes only when she threatens templar-killing Hawke, because now he feels she's crossing the line.

He sees it as a necessary evil. Not appeasing a mob, but ensuring that no contamination remains in the Circle. In the pro-templar path, three mages surrender and Cullen advocates sparing them.

[Auintus]

Xilizhra wrote...

So I should just kill everyone because they represent a potential threat? Great plan.

Kill every enemy combatant still fighting you.

Woah, no one said anything about surrendering. Just because they don't want mages murdered or abused doesn't mean that they don't still feel that mages need to be trained, and seperated from the average populice until they are.

It's not hard. They have two choices: surrender or die. Or they could be taken prisoner, I suppose, but I'm not sure what'd happen there.

You expect them to let you run around killing people? I am a mage advocate, but I understand that most templars genuinly believe that they are doing the right thing.

Surrender, die, or manage to take you down. That's what they are hoping for, they see it as dying for the greater good because you have become their vision of evil.

[Xilizhra]

True, but at the same time, there's no reason for Cullen to believe he wouldn't be fighting Meredith alone. They're not rebels until Cullen relieves her of command, at which point she accuses them all of being blood mage thralls and orders them executed. Which really leaves them no choice.

He still capitulated to evil. Leaving the scene could be justifiable, but he participated instead.

You expect them to let you run around killing people? I am a mage advocate, but I understand that most templars genuinly believe that they are doing the right thing.

As long as there's a war, running around killing people is what we do.

Surrender, die, or manage to take you down. That's what they are hoping for, they see it as dying for the greater good because you have become their vision of evil.

I'm the PC, they're not going to take me down.

[Auintus]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Well, you know, Darkspawn and blood mages running around is usually a sign for caution.  He also seems to be in at 100 Rival with Irving, so the Grand Enchanter and Knight Commander are on the same page.  He shuts down Cullen's call for annullment as long as Irving is alive (and considering we only see Wynne left, he's more or less the only senior enchanter around).  I would count Lothering because they are responsible for hunting Apostates and take lyrium and what have you.

He does? I didn't know you could do that.  I'll need to try it again when I get to Haven in my new playthrough.  And then reload, because that's now how my current character rolls.  Just let Leliana and Wynne handle the religious stuff.

Nah, it's more fun this way.

I won't argue with that. I'm convinced.

Yeah, If you refuse to strip, he will stop you and say something like, "Armed and armored you have tried to approach Andraste" blah blah blah. My canon warden said that he couldn't throw aside his worldly duties and the guardian said I wasn't a true pilgrim, which I would've told him from the start.  Something like that, anyway.

Then let the games begin.

[Auintus]

Xilizhra wrote...

True, but at the same time, there's no reason for Cullen to believe he wouldn't be fighting Meredith alone. They're not rebels until Cullen relieves her of command, at which point she accuses them all of being blood mage thralls and orders them executed. Which really leaves them no choice.

He still capitulated to evil. Leaving the scene could be justifiable, but he participated instead.

You expect them to let you run around killing people? I am a mage advocate, but I understand that most templars genuinly believe that they are doing the right thing.

As long as there's a war, running around killing people is what we do.

Surrender, die, or manage to take you down. That's what they are hoping for, they see it as dying for the greater good because you have become their vision of evil.

I'm the PC, they're not going to take me down.

He doesn't see it as evil. He sees it as a distasteful necessity: something that must be done to protect the city.

I mean run around killing templars, which allows evil mages and abominations much more freedom.

I never said they would, but from an in-game perspective, they hope that they will keep you from doing any further evil. It's a self-sacrificing mindset.

[Xilizhra]

He doesn't see it as evil. He sees it as a distasteful necessity: something that must be done to protect the city.

I disagree, and am willing to do so violently.

I mean run around killing templars, which allows evil mages and abominations much more freedom.

I'm at war with the templars. Every single templar combatant is a viable target until this war is over.

I never said they would, but from an in-game perspective, they hope that they will keep you from doing any further evil. It's a self-sacrificing mindset.

That's nice, but means nothing to me. Certainly I won't fight less hard.

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: I really think you're going to be super disappointed with DA 3.

I do not believe you're going to be able to kill off all Templars - ban them - and have mages rule all the nations of Thedas.

Mainly because it's psychotic - but also because I don't think that's the story they want to sell. 

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 25 octobre 2012 - 04:51 .

[Auintus]

Xilizhra wrote...

He doesn't see it as evil. He sees it as a distasteful necessity: something that must be done to protect the city.

I disagree, and am willing to do so violently.

I mean run around killing templars, which allows evil mages and abominations much more freedom.

I'm at war with the templars. Every single templar combatant is a viable target until this war is over.

I never said they would, but from an in-game perspective, they hope that they will keep you from doing any further evil. It's a self-sacrificing mindset.

That's nice, but means nothing to me. Certainly I won't fight less hard.

You simply refuse to see it from their perspective. You seem to believe that the power to do what you want gives you the right to do what you want. You seem to think that there has never been an evil mage, that an abomination has never threatened a city, that these people have no reason for their fear.
The Circle isn't right, but mages cannot be allowed to run around without training. If mages behave as they do in the Imperium, the time would come when all mages would be considered a threat and killed on sight, never even given a chance. Cooperation would then be nothing but a whimsical dream.

[Xilizhra]

I do not believe you're going to be able to kill off all Templars - ban them - and have mages rule all the nations of Thedas.

Baby steps.

You simply refuse to see it from their perspective. You seem to believe that the power to do what you want gives you the right to do what you want. You seem to think that there has never been an evil mage, that an abomination has never threatened a city, that these people have no reason for their fear.
The Circle isn't right, but mages cannot be allowed to run around without training. If mages behave as they do in the Imperium, the time would come when all mages would be considered a threat and killed on sight, never even given a chance. Cooperation would then be nothing but a whimsical dream.

None of which is at all relevant to the templars or Chantry being the ones to do anything. They cannot, and they will be destroyed (the templars, anyway; the Chantry doesn't seem to have enough combatants). The mage question is separate from the templar problem, and the latter must be solved before we can turn fully to the former.

[TK514]

Xilizhra wrote...

True, but at the same time, there's no reason for Cullen to believe he wouldn't be fighting Meredith alone. They're not rebels until Cullen relieves her of command, at which point she accuses them all of being blood mage thralls and orders them executed. Which really leaves them no choice.

He still capitulated to evil. Leaving the scene could be justifiable, but he participated instead.

Again you're talking about suicide by Meredith.  Only this time, he's not in a position where the other Templars have to back him up, so he'd be throwing his life away for nothing.  If anything, he'd have been cementing Meredith's position and control by providing an example of what happens to traitors.

And, as I recall, he takes personal responsibility for the conduct and status of several mages Meredith would have otherwise killed, and specifically questions the necessity of the Annulment.  Though those may only be in the Templar version, so you might not have seen them.

Honestly, I don't know why I'm defending him.  I don't even like the character.  Sadly, most of the Templars I did like got killed by abominations or blood mages or demons well before things came to a head with Meredith the Mad.

[Xilizhra]

And, as I recall, he takes personal responsibility for the conduct and status of several mages Meredith would have otherwise killed, and specifically questions the necessity of the Annulment. Though those may only be in the Templar version, so you might not have seen them.

He only does that with Hawke's backing. It wouldn't happen in the mage version.

[Vandicus]

Auintus wrote...

 If mages behave as they do in the Imperium, the time would come when all mages would be considered a threat and killed on sight, never even given a chance. Cooperation would then be nothing but a whimsical dream.

That's actually exactly what happened previously in Thedas's history. The original Inquisition with the task of wiping out all mages was the solution used by mundanes after the Tevinter Imperium. It took a person with absolute authority and enormous power to change this, and that would be Emperor Drakon.

[DarthLaxian]

Xilizhra wrote...

So I should just kill everyone because they represent a potential threat? Great plan.

Kill every enemy combatant still fighting you.

Woah, no one said anything about surrendering. Just because they don't want mages murdered or abused doesn't mean that they don't still feel that mages need to be trained, and seperated from the average populice until they are.

It's not hard. They have two choices: surrender or die. Or they could be taken prisoner, I suppose, but I'm not sure what'd happen there.

For the sake of discussion, what would you do with Templars that did surrender? If you've said before, I apologize because I missed it or have forgotten.

It depends on the circumstances. My ideal solution would be to get them to fight for my side, but I'd be willing to let them stay as contributing civilians in territory we controlled.

one question, one single question derails that argument:

would you want to be taken prisoner by people who you do not trust, because they have in the past murdered, brutalized and raped your kin (other circle-mages, elven keepers, hedge mages etc.)?

i guess you would not take this leap of fate and rather die trying to win your freedom! (freedom is something you take for granted, but i am pretty sure you would be feeling really sorry, if you let someone take yours' away!)

greetings LAX

[Xilizhra]

i guess you would not take this leap of fate and rather die trying to win your freedom! (freedom is something you take for granted, but i am pretty sure you would be feeling really sorry, if you let someone take yours' away!)

It's never a good choice to inflict on someone, but they're the ones fighting to oppress/kill the mages.

[LobselVith8]

Auintus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm addressing the pro-mage path: Meredith orders the execution of hundreds of men, women, and children to appease a hypothetical mob, but Cullen doesn't stop her. Cullen intervenes only when she threatens templar-killing Hawke, because now he feels she's crossing the line.

He sees it as a necessary evil. Not appeasing a mob, but ensuring that no contamination remains in the Circle. In the pro-templar path, three mages surrender and Cullen advocates sparing them.

Three out of hundreds of men, women, and children, who are going to be executed for the actions of one apostate.

[Medhia Nox]

@LobselVith8: Are you equally as outraged at the thought of the men, women, and children visiting the Chantry that one apostate blew up?

No - I do not support Annulment. 

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 25 octobre 2012 - 05:03 .

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@LobselVith8: Are you equally as outraged at the thought of the men, women, and children visiting the Chantry that one apostate blew up?

I'm sure he would be, had there been any aside from templars and their ultimate leader.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...
He still capitulated to evil. Leaving the scene could be justifiable, but he participated instead.

Your Hawke sides with mages. And thus, with evil.
Hence why murdering your Hawke is 100% justified.

As long as there's a war, running around killing people is what we do.

Then I shall do so too. Killing mages that is.

I disagree, and am willing to do so violently.

I disagree with your disagreement and am willing to do so violently.

I'm at war with the templars. Every single templar combatant is a viable target until this war is over.

Any every single mage is a viable target untill forever.
Hence why tranqualizing and locking them up is AOK. It's a war after all.


Templars rule, mages drool.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 25 octobre 2012 - 05:04 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: Interesting - I missed the cut scren where Anders clears out the temple and the surrounding area where debris probably rained down on houses, stores, etc.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@LobselVith8: Are you equally as outraged at the thought of the men, women, and children visiting the Chantry that one apostate blew up?

I'm sure he would be, had there been any aside from templars and their ultimate leader.

And in the fantasy land of handwawing adn make-believe, there never are any people in temples and churches.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...

@BlueMagitek: Yes, Gregoire is exactly how I want the Templars. I felt he was compassionate to what the mage was going through - but stood by his convictions that his job was important. He also seemed very protective of the mages - and often said: "Us"

You do realize he has a history of physically abusing pregnant women, yes?

Garbage comic writen b a garbage writer.

If I were to write a DA:O comic and make mages look like drooling morons and idiots and all Templars like paragons if virtue, would you accept that?

[Medhia Nox]

As a mage player I'm almost ashamed (this is a real discussion about fictional things I don't feel much about it really) at all the propaganda a handful of mage supporters throw around on here.

[Xilizhra]

@Xilizhra: Interesting - I missed the cut scren where Anders clears out the temple and the surrounding area where debris probably rained down on houses, stores, etc.

Interestingly, we see no one dead, a notable difference from the qunari attack.

And in the fantasy land of handwawing adn make-believe, there never are any people in temples and churches.

As opposed to real life, where you make things up you didn't see?

Garbage comic writen b a garbage writer.

If I were to write a DA:O comic and make mages look like drooling morons and idiots and all Templars like paragons if virtue, would you accept that?

Has Bioware made it canon?

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I'm addressing the pro-mage path: Meredith orders the execution of hundreds of men, women, and children to appease a hypothetical mob, but Cullen doesn't stop her. Cullen intervenes only when she threatens templar-killing Hawke, because now he feels she's crossing the line.

Let's nto forget that as far as anyone know, all mages in the Circle were involed with this.
With Orsinos dabbling in forbidden experiments, mages practicing blood magic and open conflict in the streets, is it any wonder when a templar starts thinking that the Cirlce is lost?