2177 réponses à ce sujet

[Arokel]

Vandicus wrote...

Arokel wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Some more reaction from people around you would be nice, considering how reviled blood mages are.

Granted, people should react to the mere presence of a mage, considering how rare they are outside of circles.

I agree with the second part epecially.  Would be neat to see some shop owners close their door to you if you are a mage.

Shop owners present a peculiar problem. Because they have shops full of cool stuff we're almost never allowed to rob them, because this would be game breaking. If they refuse access to blood mages it would make sense that the blood mages would be able to rob them, but we again encounter the whole game breaking thing.

It would have to be minor vendors who don't have unique items and I was thinking all mages not just blood mages.  I imagine that the war has polarized alot of people's opinions on mages.

[DKJaigen]

Arokel wrote...

To get things back on topic what do you guys think about the world reacting more severely towards choosing to be a maleficar?

i think you mean bloodmagic. maleficar are mags that pratice magic outside the circles knowledge. But yeah if your a bloodmage mass hyseteria should happen .

[Cultist]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
The only price for it is MILLIONS of dead and a dark age period.. <_<

And even with the Archdemons dead, the darkspawn are still there.

After our long conversation about Leliana, I understand that proofs are not your strong side, but you surely would point me at any lore part where millions died?
And isn't dark ages started thanks to terrorist woman, who caused "droughts, famines and flooding, which decimated the Imperium's farmland and, consequently, troops"? Imperium were weakened after First Blight, but thanks to Andraqste, it fell.
Without Archdemon, darkspawn is disorganized and could be fought, what Tevinter managed to do quite well, I bet with Blood Magic as well.

DKJaigen wrote...
Mate your saying that you lack  both disicipline and morals ? Oh and dont put anyone else on your level its insulting

Oh, that's not insults. You haven't seen our conversation about Leliana, "stupid" is the mildest word he used back then. So be soft on him)

Vandicus wrote...
Shop owners present a peculiar problem.
Because they have shops full of cool stuff we're almost never allowed to
rob them, because this would be game breaking. If they refuse access to
blood mages it would make sense that the blood mages would be able to
rob them, but we again encounter the whole game breaking thing.

Well, that part could be fixed without any harm or accidental plot-holes. Some traders can charge you with more money to represent their hatred for mages, and they can't tell if you are BM unless you start cutting yourself left and right.
If they cahnge combat animations and avoid cutting at all - then we can at least partly explain all that casting of Blood Magic spells in public places - common people hardly can see the difference between common mage and BM.

But if BioWare decide that your practice of blood Magic will be widely known but for some reason everyone will be forced to tolerate you - at least some vendors should be closed to you - like Templars or Chantry support. But this may be compensated with Blood mages smugglers, tevinter merchants etc. So no problem here)

Modifié par Cultist, 01 octobre 2012 - 09:18 .

[Arokel]

DKJaigen wrote...

Arokel wrote...

To get things back on topic what do you guys think about the world reacting more severely towards choosing to be a maleficar?

i think you mean bloodmagic. maleficar are mags that pratice magic outside the circles knowledge. But yeah if your a bloodmage mass hyseteria should happen .

Pretty sure that outside of the circle is Apostate and blood mage is Maleficar.

Modifié par Arokel, 01 octobre 2012 - 09:16 .

[Xilizhra]

Is blood magic really "absolute" power over others? We've only seen blood magic's mind control side used once, by Idunna, and that didn't even work. A mage can break it with relatively little effort, another mage can easily dispel it, and even without magic, it's possible for someone of sufficient will to break free.

[Arokel]

Xilizhra wrote...

Is blood magic really "absolute" power over others? We've only seen blood magic's mind control side used once, by Idunna, and that didn't even work. A mage can break it with relatively little effort, another mage can easily dispel it, and even without magic, it's possible for someone of sufficient will to break free.

I have wondered about that scene as well.  Perhaps her control was not yet absolute?

[DKJaigen]

Vandicus wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Auintus wrote...
You have an incredibly cynical view of humans, and that is coming from someone who once believed that the best fate for the human race was complete annihilation.
"Magic shall serve that which is best in me, not that which is most base." It's always a matter of choice.

I have a very realistic view.

I wouldn't trust you with that power.
I wouldnt' trust my mother with that power.
I wouldn't trust myself with that power.
I wouldn't trust no one. Absolutely, utterly no one.
Because that is the only sane stance to have regarding such power.

So you  saying you lack both disicipline and morals ? Oh and put anyone else on your level its insulting

So you would trust other people with mind control powers. As mind control constitutes power over people's identity, body, and possessions, that means you'd be likewise willing to trust people with all of those things. 

I wouldn't. Does that mean I lack discipline or morals?

Whatever you trust somebody or not is your concern. But if i give you this power. Do you wish to do evil or good with it? disicipline can be taught. every soldier and policemen knows this.

He stated that he wouldn't trust anyone with absolute power over others(aka mind control). You stated that his reaction constitutes a lack of discipline and morals. 

If I was given this power I would probably use it to enforce my own idea of justice. If people agreed with my view on what constitutes justice, they would state that I possess restraint and only use my powers for good. If people disagreed, they would villify my actions and state that I abuse my powers.

To trust myself with these powers I would need to have absolute certainty and conviction in the rightness of my actions(the same criteria for trusting anyone with this much power, absolute control requires absolute trust). I do not have these things. Does this mean I lack either morals or discipline?

Your not lacking in morals. But you do lack in discipline to hold these kind of abilities. But you never trained for it so i cannot blame you for it. 

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I have a very realistic view.

I wouldn't trust you with that power.
I wouldnt' trust my mother with that power.
I wouldn't trust myself with that power.
I wouldn't trust no one. Absolutely, utterly no one.
Because that is the only sane stance to have regarding such power.

You have my sympathies.

Xilizhra wrote...

Is blood magic really "absolute" power over others? We've only seen blood magic's mind control side used once, by Idunna, and that didn't even work. A mage can break it with relatively little effort, another mage can easily dispel it, and even without magic, it's possible for someone of sufficient will to break free.

Yeah, stronger enemies have no difficulty resisting it, they don't even flinch. With strong enough willpower, I figure anyone can resist it. But in the hands of a strong enough mage...

[DKJaigen]

Arokel wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Arokel wrote...

To get things back on topic what do you guys think about the world reacting more severely towards choosing to be a maleficar?

i think you mean bloodmagic. maleficar are mags that pratice magic outside the circles knowledge. But yeah if your a bloodmage mass hyseteria should happen .

Pretty sure that outside of the circle is Apostate and blood mage is Maleficar.

All magic that does not adhere to circle doctrine is maleficar arts. Wynne named morrigan a maleficar because she practices shapeshifting.

[Allan Schumacher]

Very close to issuing out some timeouts.

Time to decide if you feel you should take the high road in the way some of these discourses are going.

[billy the squid]

Cultist wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
The only price for it is MILLIONS of dead and a dark age period.. <_<

And even with the Archdemons dead, the darkspawn are still there.

After our long conversation about Leliana, I understand that proofs are not your strong side, but you surely would point me at any lore part where millions died?
And isn't dark ages started thanks to terrorist woman, who caused "droughts, famines and flooding, which decimated the Imperium's farmland and, consequently, troops"? Imperium were weakened after First Blight, but thanks to Andraqste, it fell.
Without Archdemon, darkspawn is disorganized and could be fought, what Tevinter managed to do quite well, I 

Exactly under the Imperium Thedas could have continued to progress into a more enlightened era, rather than the squabbling mess that it is now. Blood magic rulership or embracing the Qun is the only answer, benevolent tyranny if people need to call it that.

Modifié par billy the squid, 01 octobre 2012 - 09:22 .

[Xilizhra]

Arokel wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Is blood magic really "absolute" power over others? We've only seen blood magic's mind control side used once, by Idunna, and that didn't even work. A mage can break it with relatively little effort, another mage can easily dispel it, and even without magic, it's possible for someone of sufficient will to break free.

I have wondered about that scene as well.  Perhaps her control was not yet absolute?

If Blood Slave is any indication, it's possible to immediately clamp down on the mind of a sufficiently weak opponent and manipulate them like a puppet, but this treatment seems to be swiftly fatal. Idunna's trick seems to be a more gradual and softer form of it, less damaging but also easier to break free of (but possibly easier to succumb to if the control is gradually escalating). Still, though, its effects don't seem all that subtle to an outside viewer in either event, and the non-combat, subversive version doesn't seem to be absolute, so I think the dangers are overrated.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Cultist wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
The only price for it is MILLIONS of dead and a dark age period.. <_<

And even with the Archdemons dead, the darkspawn are still there.

After our long conversation about Leliana, I understand that proofs are not your strong side, but you surely would point me at any lore part where millions died?
And isn't dark ages started thanks to terrorist woman, who caused "droughts, famines and flooding, which decimated the Imperium's farmland and, consequently, troops"? Imperium were weakened after First Blight, but thanks to Andraqste, it fell.
Without Archdemon, darkspawn is disorganized and could be fought, what Tevinter managed to do quite well, I bet with Blood Magic as well.

The Tevinter Imperium never fell.... Nor was it Andraste that caused the drought, flood and famine. Unless of course you are arguing for the divinity of Andraste and the existance of the Maker. And while millions might be an exageration, having a war going on for over 100 years, are likely to rack up quite the dewath toll. It is a little thing called logic.
And Darkspawn are only disorganized without their leadership, as soon as a significantly powerful Darkspawn rises, the Darkspawn in general organizes under it.

[Vandicus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Is blood magic really "absolute" power over others? We've only seen blood magic's mind control side used once, by Idunna, and that didn't even work. A mage can break it with relatively little effort, another mage can easily dispel it, and even without magic, it's possible for someone of sufficient will to break free.

If it works as effective mind control than yes, even if that effective mind control is limited by some arbitrary quantity, such as willpower or possessing magic. Anyone below the mark is effectively a potential slave to the blood mage who utilizes it.

That is not to say that blood mages have to use this power, or are inherently incapable of restraint. It is however an immense power that is handed out more or less on a genetic/random basis. Much like if the king of a country were selected at random by drawing lots. The Circle system employed by the Chantry and the Tevinter Imperium helps to teach this restraint, although the Tevinter mages largely use this to mitigate their own suffering should in-fighting occur. 

[Vandicus]

DKJaigen wrote...



Your not lacking in morals. But you do lack in discipline to hold these kind of abilities. But you never trained for it so i cannot blame you for it. 

Does discipline constitute never using these powers? If so then even possessing the powers is fairly meaningless. If discipline means attempting to achieve some form of good, the question remains, whose form of good should be achieved?

[Auintus]

So, back on topic: We clearly wouldn't be allowed to randomly take control of any individual, but a blood mage should be able to at least influence some characters in the storyline, right?

[Xilizhra]

If it works as effective mind control than yes, even if that effective mind control is limited by some arbitrary quantity, such as willpower or possessing magic. Anyone below the mark is effectively a potential slave to the blood mage who utilizes it.

Actually, this could in theory be an argument for magocracy. It's not inherently less equal than any other rule by nobility (i.e. any other government of Thedas period), and it seems that mind control isn't a major factor in Tevinter politics because the magisters can all shrug it off, hence their resorting to assassination/duels all the time.

That is not to say that blood mages have to use this power, or are inherently incapable of restraint. It is however an immense power that is handed out more or less on a genetic/random basis. Much like if the king of a country were selected at random by drawing lots. The Circle system employed by the Chantry and the Tevinter Imperium helps to teach this restraint, although the Tevinter mages largely use this to mitigate their own suffering should in-fighting occur.

Actually, blood magic is a specific skillset that requires effort to learn, not just a general power like the ability to wield magic itself is. And the Chantry is no more charitable in its restrictions than Tevinter.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

Arokel wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Is blood magic really "absolute" power over others? We've only seen blood magic's mind control side used once, by Idunna, and that didn't even work. A mage can break it with relatively little effort, another mage can easily dispel it, and even without magic, it's possible for someone of sufficient will to break free.

I have wondered about that scene as well.  Perhaps her control was not yet absolute?

If Blood Slave is any indication, it's possible to immediately clamp down on the mind of a sufficiently weak opponent and manipulate them like a puppet, but this treatment seems to be swiftly fatal. Idunna's trick seems to be a more gradual and softer form of it, less damaging but also easier to break free of (but possibly easier to succumb to if the control is gradually escalating). Still, though, its effects don't seem all that subtle to an outside viewer in either event, and the non-combat, subversive version doesn't seem to be absolute, so I think the dangers are overrated.

Avernus "influenced" the nobles of Ferelden to rebel. I am guessing that was of a more subtle kind of manipulation than Idunna, since the nobles didn't run in terror from him.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Cultist wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
The only price for it is MILLIONS of dead and a dark age period.. <_<

And even with the Archdemons dead, the darkspawn are still there.

After our long conversation about Leliana, I understand that proofs are not your strong side, but you surely would point me at any lore part where millions died?
And isn't dark ages started thanks to terrorist woman, who caused "droughts, famines and flooding, which decimated the Imperium's farmland and, consequently, troops"? Imperium were weakened after First Blight, but thanks to Andraqste, it fell.
Without Archdemon, darkspawn is disorganized and could be fought, what Tevinter managed to do quite well, I bet with Blood Magic as well.

The Tevinter Imperium never fell.... Nor was it Andraste that caused the drought, flood and famine. Unless of course you are arguing for the divinity of Andraste and the existance of the Maker. And while millions might be an exageration, having a war going on for over 100 years, are likely to rack up quite the dewath toll. It is a little thing called logic.
And Darkspawn are only disorganized without their leadership, as soon as a significantly powerful Darkspawn rises, the Darkspawn in general organizes under it.

Thats like saying the our dark ages never happend because the byzantine empire survived. Whatever her reasons Andraste did cause the dark ages even if she had not intended to do so.

[Vandicus]

Xilizhra wrote...

If it works as effective mind control than yes, even if that effective mind control is limited by some arbitrary quantity, such as willpower or possessing magic. Anyone below the mark is effectively a potential slave to the blood mage who utilizes it.

Actually, this could in theory be an argument for magocracy. It's not inherently less equal than any other rule by nobility (i.e. any other government of Thedas period), and it seems that mind control isn't a major factor in Tevinter politics because the magisters can all shrug it off, hence their resorting to assassination/duels all the time.

That is not to say that blood mages have to use this power, or are inherently incapable of restraint. It is however an immense power that is handed out more or less on a genetic/random basis. Much like if the king of a country were selected at random by drawing lots. The Circle system employed by the Chantry and the Tevinter Imperium helps to teach this restraint, although the Tevinter mages largely use this to mitigate their own suffering should in-fighting occur.

Actually, blood magic is a specific skillset that requires effort to learn, not just a general power like the ability to wield magic itself is. And the Chantry is no more charitable in its restrictions than Tevinter.

Demons are always willing to teach blood magic, for a price. 

If blood magic were some lost archaic form of magic that required years of study and meditation to learn, you might have a point about the basic prerequisites for knowing it engendering a substantial base level of trust. But again, demons are more than willing to share blood magic with any mage who comes a knocking.


Yeah, rule by the Tevinters isn't any worse than some real life examples of rule by nobility. Its the same game of politics and backstabbing practiced for centuries, just more restrictive. Not sure how you derive an argument for magocracy there since there is nothing in that statement supporting the idea that rule by nobility is somehow a superior form of government.


*EDIT

Also the distinguishing feature in the restrictiveness of the Chantry vs the Imperium is not in implementation, but in intent. The Imperium does this to protect themselves(the leadership) from in-fighting. The Chantry does this to protect everyone. 

Modifié par Vandicus, 01 octobre 2012 - 09:34 .

[Arokel]

Auintus wrote...

So, back on topic: We clearly wouldn't be allowed to randomly take control of any individual, but a blood mage should be able to at least influence some characters in the storyline, right?

Yeah they should.  Maybe similar to what Idunna did in DA2.  Making someone kill themself.  Thats dark.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Cultist wrote...
After our long conversation about Leliana, I understand that proofs are not your strong side, but you surely would point me at any lore part where millions died?

Blights. All nations of Thedas involved. Lastnig for years (the First one almost a 100 years IIRC).
Do the math genius...

Without Archdemon, darkspawn is disorganized and could be fought, what Tevinter managed to do quite well, I bet with Blood Magic as well.

Fighting off small groups of darkspawn that come to the surface is fighting the symptoms, not the cause.
Unless you blood magic has a method to kill ALL darkspawn, they will continue to plauge thedas forever.

Oh, that's not insults. You haven't seen our conversation about Leliana, "stupid" is the mildest word he used back then. So be soft on him)

HM..I thought I put you on my ignore list.. Why are your posts still showing up?

[Auintus]

Arokel wrote...

Auintus wrote...

So, back on topic: We clearly wouldn't be allowed to randomly take control of any individual, but a blood mage should be able to at least influence some characters in the storyline, right?

Yeah they should.  Maybe similar to what Idunna did in DA2.  Making someone kill themself.  Thats dark.

Maybe actually tie the willpower stat into successful manipulations? That makes sense from a roleplaying standpoint.

[SgtElias]

Arokel wrote...

Auintus wrote...

So, back on topic: We clearly wouldn't be allowed to randomly take control of any individual, but a blood mage should be able to at least influence some characters in the storyline, right?

Yeah they should.  Maybe similar to what Idunna did in DA2.  Making someone kill themself.  Thats dark.

Yeah, that's kind of messed up. I mean, it'd be great for those who're playing a blood mage, don't get me wrong. I'm all for more options in games, even if they're twisted.

I usually play mages in both DA:O and DA:2, but I've never made a blood mage. Still, having this option present would be great for those who do, I think. Especially if your companions are present. I imagine at least one of them would be horrified and call you out on it. Fantastic.

[Shadow Fox]

DKJaigen wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

sunnydxmen wrote...

The corruption of blood magic is a slow porcess. the more use it the more corrupt and more likely to go insane an be evil you become, so merrill could still turn evil if she keep using it.

I see Blood Magic as being in the same vein as Necromancy from WOW an inherently dark power that while it can be used for good it will ultimately corrupt the user.

You can see al you wan but your simply not correct.

Really I'd love to see how I'm not.