2177 réponses à ce sujet

[Auintus]

Xilizhra wrote...

None of which is at all relevant to the templars or Chantry being the ones to do anything. They cannot, and they will be destroyed (the templars, anyway; the Chantry doesn't seem to have enough combatants). The mage question is separate from the templar problem, and the latter must be solved before we can turn fully to the former.

The Chantry, no, but the templars, if properly led, are the best defense that the common folk have against self-serving mages.
You realize your extermination would end in failure, right? The number of extremists on either side is less than half of those with a more moderate view. A majority of templars do not believe that mages must be exterminated. A majority of mages believe that the Circle can be redeemed. Which gives this neutral, peace-seeking force numbers far surpassing the zealots you could bring to your cause.

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: Oh - didn't see it, must not haev happened. I get it.

Let's forget even fictional physics of what explosions are likely to do.

This was a magical smart bomb that exonerates terrorists.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...

And in the fantasy land of handwawing adn make-believe, there never are any people in temples and churches.

As opposed to real life, where you make things up you didn't see?

What did we see? One small part of the temple. What about the 99% the rest of the interior?
What about the area around the temple?

Of course you're are free to belive that there was absolutely no one there and that mages are never wrong.
I'd rather go with what is more plausible than your wish-fulfilment dreams.

Garbage comic writen b a garbage writer.
If I were to write a DA:O comic and make mages look like drooling morons and idiots and all Templars like paragons if virtue, would you accept that?

Has Bioware made it canon?

Was it writen by the original author? (also, EA now makes decisions, not BioWare)
And lets assume it was.

[Auintus]

Vandicus wrote...

That's actually exactly what happened previously in Thedas's history. The original Inquisition with the task of wiping out all mages was the solution used by mundanes after the Tevinter Imperium. It took a person with absolute authority and enormous power to change this, and that would be Emperor Drakon.

Not true. The original Inquisition's goal was to bring about order, which often involved killing abominations and rogue mages. I refuse to believe, unless I hear from the writers, that mages were never among the Inquisition's numbers. It is only after the Nevarran Accords that the Chantry takes over and begins imprisoning mages.

[Auintus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Three out of hundreds of men, women, and children, who are going to be executed for the actions of one apostate.

You can hear it in Meredith's voice. Before she snaps, she is only doing what she believes is best: eliminating even the possiblity of corruption within the Circle. She doesn't like it, but it would've solved the immediate problem. The Rite of Annulment is a desperate act, when the Circle is believed to be corrupted beyond all repair. From what she had seen, this was true.
Unfortunately, Zazikel Hawke was leading the mages.

[Xilizhra]

Auintus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

None of which is at all relevant to the templars or Chantry being the ones to do anything. They cannot, and they will be destroyed (the templars, anyway; the Chantry doesn't seem to have enough combatants). The mage question is separate from the templar problem, and the latter must be solved before we can turn fully to the former.

The Chantry, no, but the templars, if properly led, are the best defense that the common folk have against self-serving mages.
You realize your extermination would end in failure, right? The number of extremists on either side is less than half of those with a more moderate view. A majority of templars do not believe that mages must be exterminated. A majority of mages believe that the Circle can be redeemed. Which gives this neutral, peace-seeking force numbers far surpassing the zealots you could bring to your cause.

I'm ending the current Templar Order and creating a new one with new recruits, if it should happen to be necessary. And the beliefs of individual mages and templars won't matter so long as this war continues; what happens afterwards may be another story, but I'm speaking of the war itself right now.

[Vandicus]

Auintus wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

That's actually exactly what happened previously in Thedas's history. The original Inquisition with the task of wiping out all mages was the solution used by mundanes after the Tevinter Imperium. It took a person with absolute authority and enormous power to change this, and that would be Emperor Drakon.

Not true. The original Inquisition's goal was to bring about order, which often involved killing abominations and rogue mages. I refuse to believe, unless I hear from the writers, that mages were never among the Inquisition's numbers. It is only after the Nevarran Accords that the Chantry takes over and begins imprisoning mages.

The time of the original Inquisition is referred to by codexes as a reign of terror. Their goal, the protection of the mundanes, while noble, clearly relied on more radical methods than the Templar Order and the Circle system. Drakon brings them to heel in order to stop the chaos that arises from a (literal) witch hunt.

[thats1evildude]

I believe the Thedas Inquisition was originally tasked with rooting out heretics, ie. cults of Old God and dragon-worshippers that were left in the south after the Tevinter Imperium surrendered.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 25 octobre 2012 - 05:26 .

[Auintus]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm ending the current Templar Order and creating a new one with new recruits, if it should happen to be necessary. And the beliefs of individual mages and templars won't matter so long as this war continues; what happens afterwards may be another story, but I'm speaking of the war itself right now.

"Ending" is such a vague term when it sounds like you mean "killing every single person who disagrees with my views or methods in the slightest."
Your "new recruits" at the end of your reign of terror would be too petrified to even act against real threats.

[Auintus]

Vandicus wrote...

The time of the original Inquisition is referred to by codexes as a reign of terror. Their goal, the protection of the mundanes, while noble, clearly relied on more radical methods than the Templar Order and the Circle system. Drakon brings them to heel in order to stop the chaos that arises from a (literal) witch hunt.

Codexes are biased.
The Inquisition was dealing with absolute chaos. Whether their fault or that of another, many people would see it as a terror. They were trying to protect the common people, likely with techniques far from practiced, from demons, abominations, and rogue mages. No one is going to be happy with the situation and the Inquisition is the only cohesive order that can be blamed.

[Vandicus]

Auintus wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

The time of the original Inquisition is referred to by codexes as a reign of terror. Their goal, the protection of the mundanes, while noble, clearly relied on more radical methods than the Templar Order and the Circle system. Drakon brings them to heel in order to stop the chaos that arises from a (literal) witch hunt.

Codexes are biased.
The Inquisition was dealing with absolute chaos. Whether their fault or that of another, many people would see it as a terror. They were trying to protect the common people, likely with techniques far from practiced, from demons, abominations, and rogue mages. No one is going to be happy with the situation and the Inquisition is the only cohesive order that can be blamed.

The point being that the attitude of kill on sight does arise(which is your original point and one I was providing an example for), as shown by Thedas's history.

[Auintus]

Vandicus wrote...

The point being that the attitude of kill on sight does arise(which is your original point and one I was providing an example for), as shown by Thedas's history.

Sadly true. The difficulty is the inability to judge someone's intentions just by looking at them. If a mage wishes you harm, it takes him only a moment to do so. This leads to an unwinnable situation.

[BlueMagitek]

CodyMelch wrote...

As was said, Gregoire has an attendency
to abuse the mages under him if he is angry. Such as this pregnant
women for example who, did not know where a certain accused blood mage
was at. In anger he punches her in the gut (I think it was hard enough
for her to cough out blood which would most likely kill the baby).

Yea not exactly the shining example of a templar. He did this in one of the Dragon Age comics.

See, we actually never see Gregoire abusing mages.  So a tendency?  I'm going to call you out on that.
And I'm going to go ahead and question the canon of this supposed
comic, because it doesn't match his portrayal in the game at all.

Auintus wrote...

I won't argue with that. I'm convinced.

Yeah, If you refuse to strip, he will stop you and say something like, "Armed and armored you have tried to approach Andraste" blah blah blah. My canon warden said that he couldn't throw aside his worldly duties and the guardian said I wasn't a true pilgrim, which I would've told him from the start.  Something like that, anyway.
Then let the games begin.

Ha, well that's a first. :happy:

Is that so?  Well, yes, I think I will be approaching it armored, because the entire place is full of doppleganger spirits and ash wraiths.  Seriously, too much effort.  ~_~

Enjoy yourself then. =D

[Xilizhra]

Auintus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm ending the current Templar Order and creating a new one with new recruits, if it should happen to be necessary. And the beliefs of individual mages and templars won't matter so long as this war continues; what happens afterwards may be another story, but I'm speaking of the war itself right now.

"Ending" is such a vague term when it sounds like you mean "killing every single person who disagrees with my views or methods in the slightest."
Your "new recruits" at the end of your reign of terror would be too petrified to even act against real threats.

Gah. I'm only killing enemy combatants and dissolving the Templar Order. What I need to do is do so in a way that it won't be able to reform by itself, and that method, I'm not yet sure of.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

[quote]BlueMagitek wrote...

[quote]CodyMelch wrote...

As was said, Gregoire has an attendency
to abuse the mages under him if he is angry. Such as this pregnant
women for example who, did not know where a certain accused blood mage
was at. In anger he punches her in the gut (I think it was hard enough
for her to cough out blood which would most likely kill the baby).

Yea not exactly the shining example of a templar. He did this in one of the Dragon Age comics.

[/quote]

See, we actually never see Gregoire abusing mages.  So a tendency?  I'm going to call you out on that.
And I'm going to go ahead and question the canon of this supposed
comic, because it doesn't match his portrayal in the game at all.
[/quote]

I'm not sure of the canonicity of the comics. I've heard people say they are, but I don't think I've seen anything straight from Gaider on the subject.

As for Gregoire, in the comics, his hair was completely black. In the game? Grey. Maybe he mellowed out a little in the interim? It looks like he's had enough time.

[/quote]

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 25 octobre 2012 - 06:11 .

[Cody]

BlueMagitek wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

As was said, Gregoire has an attendency
to abuse the mages under him if he is angry. Such as this pregnant
women for example who, did not know where a certain accused blood mage
was at. In anger he punches her in the gut (I think it was hard enough
for her to cough out blood which would most likely kill the baby).

Yea not exactly the shining example of a templar. He did this in one of the Dragon Age comics.

See, we actually never see Gregoire abusing mages.  So a tendency?  I'm going to call you out on that.
And I'm going to go ahead and question the canon of this supposed
comic, because it doesn't match his portrayal in the game at all.

Call me out on what? That it happened? It did. And yes it is canon unless Bio has come out and said otherwise(they did not). And how do you know he does not have the tendency to do so? We do not get much contact with him and quite frankly it fits his character quite well since he admits that he would sacrifice an innocent mage over an innocent non mage in a heartbeat. Combined with thinking that the very idea of allowing one circle of magi to have it's own independence is just mind blowing, I think it is safe to say that he would have no qualms punching out a preggers women if she was a mage.

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: Interesting - I missed the
cut scren where Anders clears out the temple and the surrounding area
where debris probably rained down on houses, stores, etc.

Bio
confirmed that no orphans were in the chantry. All that is there would
be the old b!tch and some templars and maybe some priests.

And as
far as explosions go it was a pretty concentrated blast leaving no
major crater behind. I am sure there were some bystanders caught in it
but not that many.

[Medhia Nox]

@CodyMelch: Oh - not that many. We're good then.

You do know that not just orphans go to a church right? You may have never been perhaps - but many people go to religious places for quiet contemplation.

But "not that many". I see.

[EmperorSahlertz]

CodyMelch wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

As was said, Gregoire has an attendency
to abuse the mages under him if he is angry. Such as this pregnant
women for example who, did not know where a certain accused blood mage
was at. In anger he punches her in the gut (I think it was hard enough
for her to cough out blood which would most likely kill the baby).

Yea not exactly the shining example of a templar. He did this in one of the Dragon Age comics.

See, we actually never see Gregoire abusing mages.  So a tendency?  I'm going to call you out on that.
And I'm going to go ahead and question the canon of this supposed
comic, because it doesn't match his portrayal in the game at all.

Call me out on what? That it happened? It did. And yes it is canon unless Bio has come out and said otherwise(they did not). And how do you know he does not have the tendency to do so? We do not get much contact with him and quite frankly it fits his character quite well since he admits that he would sacrifice an innocent mage over an innocent non mage in a heartbeat. Combined with thinking that the very idea of allowing one circle of magi to have it's own independence is just mind blowing, I think it is safe to say that he would have no qualms punching out a preggers women if she was a mage.

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: Interesting - I missed the
cut scren where Anders clears out the temple and the surrounding area
where debris probably rained down on houses, stores, etc.

Bio
confirmed that no orphans were in the chantry. All that is there would
be the old b!tch and some templars and maybe some priests.

And as
far as explosions go it was a pretty concentrated blast leaving no
major crater behind. I am sure there were some bystanders caught in it
but not that many.

"It is the innocent folk of Ferelden who matter. I would lay down my life, and the life of any mage, to protect them." Not quite what you claim Knight-Commander Greagoir says, but close enough for people not to question your wording.
The entire Chantry square of Kirkwall was decimated and several parts of the city was literally lit on fire. And somehow you think that only Chantry personnel was harmed?.....

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 25 octobre 2012 - 06:27 .

[Cody]

You need to practice your reading more. It was a concentrated blast. I never said there would be no bystanders that would not get hit. I said there would not be that many outside casualties due to it being A: A concentrated clean blast, and B it being night out so most people are in their homes.

And no, with it being night there rarely is that many people in the chantry aside from a few priests and templars. This is evident by the fact that you know, every time you go into the chantry at night there is virtually no one there? Isabella's recruitment mission for example. A large group of thugs and Hawkes group all had it out in the Chantry. If there were other people there, plotwise, they would show up like they did when the Qunari killed Pertrice. Anders recruitment mission? Aside from the templars there were no one there. And that the Revered mother was shocked to find out about the bodies of the templars laying about in the chantry the next day.

So no, with those 2 instances to keep in mind. I sincerely doubt there was that many people in the chantry aside from what we saw.

And Emp it is the same thing ffs. He would lay down his life and the life of any mage to protect the people of Ferelden. This can involve the death of one mage to protect the life of one ferelden non mage. Which goes along with his character that we see in the comics who is willing to punch out a pregnant mage women.

Modifié par CodyMelch, 25 octobre 2012 - 06:37 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The entire Chantry square of Kirkwall was decimated and several parts of the city was literally lit on fire. And somehow you think that only Chantry personnel was harmed?.....

No, he thinks that mostly Chantry personnel were harmed.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm ending the current Templar Order and creating a new one with new recruits, if it should happen to be necessary. And the beliefs of individual mages and templars won't matter so long as this war continues; what happens afterwards may be another story, but I'm speaking of the war itself right now.

So mages that don't agree with you are also traitors to be killed.
Mages that were content in the circle are to be eliminated too?
Noboys beliefs or oppinions matter except for yours?

[Xilizhra]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm ending the current Templar Order and creating a new one with new recruits, if it should happen to be necessary. And the beliefs of individual mages and templars won't matter so long as this war continues; what happens afterwards may be another story, but I'm speaking of the war itself right now.

So mages that don't agree with you are also traitors to be killed.
Mages that were content in the circle are to be eliminated too?
Noboys beliefs or oppinions matter except for yours?

Right now, what matters is the war, and winning it. When we have the capacity for it, then we can build a new system.

[Cody]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

The entire Chantry square of Kirkwall was decimated and several parts of the city was literally lit on fire. And somehow you think that only Chantry personnel was harmed?.....

No, he thinks that mostly Chantry personnel were harmed.

No, if you actually read my posts you would know I said that there would be not that people outside of the chantry or of the blasts radius that would be killed and injured.

The people in the Chantry would be killed. Don't put words in my mouth.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

CodyMelch wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

The entire Chantry square of Kirkwall was decimated and several parts of the city was literally lit on fire. And somehow you think that only Chantry personnel was harmed?.....

No, he thinks that mostly Chantry personnel were harmed.

No, if you actually read my posts you would know I said that there would be not that people outside of the chantry or of the blasts radius that would be killed and injured.

The people in the Chantry would be killed. Don't put words in my mouth.

Yeah, so most of the people harmed would be working for the Chantry. Please read my post next time.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm ending the current Templar Order and creating a new one with new recruits, if it should happen to be necessary. And the beliefs of individual mages and templars won't matter so long as this war continues; what happens afterwards may be another story, but I'm speaking of the war itself right now.

So mages that don't agree with you are also traitors to be killed.
Mages that were content in the circle are to be eliminated too?
Noboys beliefs or oppinions matter except for yours?

Right now, what matters is the war, and winning it. When we have the capacity for it, then we can build a new system.

This reminds me of a quote from 1984.

"The Old Soviets most resembled us in their methods, but they didn't have the courage to admit what they were doing. We do. We know that you never create a dictatorship to protect a revolution. The point of the revolution is the dictatorship." It's a paraphrase, but I think I got the point across.

I'm not saying you're being dishonest about what your characters would want. That's stupid, we have no reason to lie on this forum. What I'm saying that even in the very unlikely event that your character got through this without learning to see enemies everywhere, the other mages would just build another Tevinter (mage-on-mage crime optional) despite your efforts, either because all they see are enemies of the revolution, or because the quote captures them perfectly. Or both. Or some of each working alongside each other.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 25 octobre 2012 - 06:52 .