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[Cody]

Auintus wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

and if the keeper had not let the demon possess her she would not have been killed by hawke and co and the clan would have no reason to attack Hawke and co. Ergo it is Marithari's fault.

I believe that the reasoning behind Marethari's possession was as derpy as Orsino going one-winged angel on you despite your support. For someone with decades of experience in ensuring the survival of her people, i'm surprised the clan lasted as long as it did.

She cared more for Merril's life than her own. Merril's obsession with the mirror ensured that someone would be possessed soon enough and Marethari chose to pay the price for her. Merril's fault for pushing the issue, but Marethari chose to sacrifice herself to save Merril.

She wasn't saving anyone. The demon had no way of getting out of it's statue. Merril was just going to chat with it. She saved her from nothing and ended up sacrificing herself for nothing. And the clan pays for it. It matters not if she loves Merril, for even if there was a chance of Merril getting possessed(there isn't) she should of thought of her clan first. If the demon went on a rampage after taking over her body her clan would be the first to be annihilated.

She jeopardized her entire clan, children, families, all for what? A small chance that Merril might become possessed? Puleeaze <_<

Modifié par CodyMelch, 25 octobre 2012 - 10:35 .

[Auintus]

CodyMelch wrote...

She wasn't saving anyone. The demon had no way of getting out of it's statue. Merril was just going to chat with it. She saved her from nothing and ended up sacrificing herself for nothing. And the clan pays for it. It matters not if she loves Merril, for even if there was a chance of Merril getting possessed(there isn't) she should of thought of her clan first. If the demon went on a rampage after taking over her body her clan would be the first to be annihilated.

She jeopardized her entire clan, children, families, all for what? A small chance that Merril might become possessed? Puleeaze <_<

The demon would have pushed and eventually Merril would have made a mistake in her desperation to repair the mirror. Marethari could see that. Demons, especially powerful ones like, say, pride, are very cunning and manipulative. With Merril obsessed enough that Varric has to make sure she eats, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't take much to get her to trip up.

She counted on her own death, she did not count on the entire clan dying too.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Auintus wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

She wasn't saving anyone. The demon had no way of getting out of it's statue. Merril was just going to chat with it. She saved her from nothing and ended up sacrificing herself for nothing. And the clan pays for it. It matters not if she loves Merril, for even if there was a chance of Merril getting possessed(there isn't) she should of thought of her clan first. If the demon went on a rampage after taking over her body her clan would be the first to be annihilated.

She jeopardized her entire clan, children, families, all for what? A small chance that Merril might become possessed? Puleeaze <_<

The demon would have pushed and eventually Merril would have made a mistake in her desperation to repair the mirror. Marethari could see that. Demons, especially powerful ones like, say, pride, are very cunning and manipulative. With Merril obsessed enough that Varric has to make sure she eats, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't take much to get her to trip up.

She counted on her own death, she did not count on the entire clan dying too.

I feel like pointing out yet again that without a keeper, the clan might be doomed anyway, whether or not they speed the process by attacking Hawke. And they aren't going to accept Merrill in that role at this point. That is the main reason I argue that Marethari made the wrong choice: she is the only mage they have that they accept, thus their best healing and combat resource. What happens if they meet bandits? Or a bunch of templars who refuse to take "We have no Keeper" for an answer?

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 25 octobre 2012 - 10:47 .

[Cody]

Auintus wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

She wasn't saving anyone. The demon had no way of getting out of it's statue. Merril was just going to chat with it. She saved her from nothing and ended up sacrificing herself for nothing. And the clan pays for it. It matters not if she loves Merril, for even if there was a chance of Merril getting possessed(there isn't) she should of thought of her clan first. If the demon went on a rampage after taking over her body her clan would be the first to be annihilated.

She jeopardized her entire clan, children, families, all for what? A small chance that Merril might become possessed? Puleeaze <_<

The demon would have pushed and eventually Merril would have made a mistake in her desperation to repair the mirror. Marethari could see that. Demons, especially powerful ones like, say, pride, are very cunning and manipulative. With Merril obsessed enough that Varric has to make sure she eats, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't take much to get her to trip up.

She counted on her own death, she did not count on the entire clan dying too.

She should not of had too. If the keeper thought about her clan and not foolishly allow the demon to possess her the only one that would of been in somewhat danger would be Merril.

[Auintus]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I feel like pointing out yet again that without a keeper, the clan might be doomed anyway, whether or not they speed the process by attacking Hawke. And they aren't going to accept Merrill in that role at this point. That is the main reason I argue that Marethari made the wrong choice: she is the only mage they have that they accept, thus their best healing and combat resource. What happens if they meet bandits? Or a bunch of templars who refuse to take "We have no Keeper" for an answer?

...I'll admit, she really dropped the ball there.

[Auintus]

CodyMelch wrote...

She should not of had too. If the keeper thought about her clan and not foolishly allow the demon to possess her the only one that would of been in somewhat danger would be Merril.

I won't argue with that. Merril was the only one at risk until Marethari intervened. She didn't have to, she could have let Merril pay her own price. It's a mother/child thing, I think.

[Xilizhra]

Auintus wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

She should not of had too. If the keeper thought about her clan and not foolishly allow the demon to possess her the only one that would of been in somewhat danger would be Merril.

I won't argue with that. Merril was the only one at risk until Marethari intervened. She didn't have to, she could have let Merril pay her own price. It's a mother/child thing, I think.

I'm fairly sure Marethari was the one who fell under Audacity's sway, and was manipulated into allowing herself to be possessed expressly to kill Merrill.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

Auintus wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

She should not of had too. If the keeper thought about her clan and not foolishly allow the demon to possess her the only one that would of been in somewhat danger would be Merril.

I won't argue with that. Merril was the only one at risk until Marethari intervened. She didn't have to, she could have let Merril pay her own price. It's a mother/child thing, I think.

I'm fairly sure Marethari was the one who fell under Audacity's sway, and was manipulated into allowing herself to be possessed expressly to kill Merrill.

No, she probably was. But, that doesn't neccesarily mean that Merrill was not in danger of being possessed.

[Auintus]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm fairly sure Marethari was the one who fell under Audacity's sway, and was manipulated into allowing herself to be possessed expressly to kill Merrill.

That's actually...not a bad idea. I still doubt it, though. He would have sneak attacked them at the very begining of the fight, like he does at the midway point. Marethari was in control to explain what she did.

[LobselVith8]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Emphasis mine. Never happened in the first place.

If Merril gave up the damn mirror like the Keeper told her to it wouldn't have happened ergo it's mostly her fault for not listening everything that happened to Merril was her own doing.

Marethari released Audacity, not Merrill. I blame Marethari for what she did; I don't see the point in vilifying Merrill for trying to restore technology that could help the People.

[Xilizhra]

Auintus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm fairly sure Marethari was the one who fell under Audacity's sway, and was manipulated into allowing herself to be possessed expressly to kill Merrill.

That's actually...not a bad idea. I still doubt it, though. He would have sneak attacked them at the very begining of the fight, like he does at the midway point. Marethari was in control to explain what she did.

Remember, demon of pride. It wants them knowledgable and squirming, and for Merrill to be consumed with guilt.

[Auintus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Remember, demon of pride. It wants them knowledgable and squirming, and for Merrill to be consumed with guilt.

Audacity was prideful enough to think he could best your team without a problem. Although, pride demons do have a habit of gloating. If he was in control the entire time, he would have been lording that over them. He only pretended to be her after he had lost.
So I think it really was her at the begining. That she intended to sacrifice herself to ensure he was killed and he thought he could fight his way through your team.

Modifié par Auintus, 25 octobre 2012 - 11:38 .

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Emphasis mine. Never happened in the first place.

Is there a way to save Marethi?

It isn't Merrill's fault that Marethari let Audacity loose, or became an abomination. Your point about Merrill is factually inaccurate.

[Xilizhra]

Auintus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Remember, demon of pride. It wants them knowledgable and squirming, and for Merrill to be consumed with guilt.

Audacity was prideful enough to think he could best your team without a problem. Although, pride demons do have a habit of gloating. If he was in control the entire time, he would have been lording that over them. He only pretended to be her after he had lost.
So I think it really was her at the begining. That she intended to sacrifice herself to ensure he was killed and he thought he could fight his way through your team.

Then why didn't Marethari warn them about anything before they went up to Pride's End? I'm fairly sure he wanted Merrill to think it was really Marethari so that she'd feel worse than she would if Audacity was in control.

[LobselVith8]

Auintus wrote...

She cared more for Merril's life than her own. Merril's obsession with the mirror ensured that someone would be possessed soon enough and Marethari chose to pay the price for her. Merril's fault for pushing the issue, but Marethari chose to sacrifice herself to save Merril.

That's absurd. Blaming Merrill for the actions of another person - a grown woman who lived for over a century? It isn't an obsession to have the desire to save your people. And elven technology might have offered the People a renaissance. I don't see the point in condemning Merrill for being proactive about the downward spiral the Dalish were facing.

[The Elder King]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Auintus wrote...

She cared more for Merril's life than her own. Merril's obsession with the mirror ensured that someone would be possessed soon enough and Marethari chose to pay the price for her. Merril's fault for pushing the issue, but Marethari chose to sacrifice herself to save Merril.

That's absurd. Blaming Merrill for the actions of another person - a grown woman who lived for over a century? It isn't an obsession to have the desire to save your people. And elven technology might have offered the People a renaissance. I don't see the point in condemning Merrill for being proactive about the downward spiral the Dalish were facing.

It's not an obsession in general, but Merill was obsessed with this, considering some banter with Varric.
At the end, though, did she find some info, lore or technology of the ancient elves?
Oh, and I don't remember way, but Audacity can be released without having a person been possessed? I'd have liked the option to free it and kill it in this case.

Modifié par hhh89, 26 octobre 2012 - 12:11 .

[Auintus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

That's absurd. Blaming Merrill for the actions of another person - a grown woman who lived for over a century? It isn't an obsession to have the desire to save your people. And elven technology might have offered the People a renaissance. I don't see the point in condemning Merrill for being proactive about the downward spiral the Dalish were facing.

The obsession was with the mirror. Did you pay attention to what it did to her? To how far she went for one scrap of culture she was warned to set aside?
Regardless, I am not blaming Merril. She made her choice; the price should have been hers to pay. Marethari interfered and paid that price instead. Marethari made the choice that got her killed, but Merril ensured that that choice had to be made.
I am not condemning anyone. I love the girl to death. However, there is a difference between "proactive" and "obsessive." And not even about the spiral. She was obsessed, completely with that damn mirror. There is so much more to Elven culture than the Eluvians, yet she couldn't see the price. Such is the nature of obsession. If she had given up on that one piece and focused on something else, the entire situation would have been avoided. She understands that at the end. That's why she smashes the mirror. She's letting go.

Modifié par Auintus, 26 octobre 2012 - 12:18 .

[The Elder King]

Auintus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That's absurd. Blaming Merrill for the actions of another person - a grown woman who lived for over a century? It isn't an obsession to have the desire to save your people. And elven technology might have offered the People a renaissance. I don't see the point in condemning Merrill for being proactive about the downward spiral the Dalish were facing.

The obsession was with the mirror. Did you pay attention to what it did to her? To how far she went for one scrap of culture she was warned to set aside?
Regardless, I am not blaming Merril. She made her choice; the price should have been hers to pay. Marethari interfered and paid that price instead. Marethari made the choice that got her killed, but Merril ensured that that choice had to be made.
.

Merrill might have been strong enough to resist possession. Though of course, that's not a certain thing. That's why I'd have liked to find a way to free Audacity and kill it.

[Auintus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Then why didn't Marethari warn them about anything before they went up to Pride's End? I'm fairly sure she wanted Merrill to think it was really Marethari so that she'd feel worse than she would if Audacity was in control.

I think she didn't allow the demon to possess her until after you pass through camp. I think Audacity just pushed through and took over after Marethari explained everything. But who can say for certain?

[Auintus]

hhh89 wrote...

Merrill might have been strong enough to resist possession. Though of course, that's not a certain thing. That's why I'd have liked to find a way to free Audacity and kill it.

I'm just going to laugh at that first point. You don't resist possession, not permanently. Anders's bit with Justice should be proof enough of that, and that was supposed to be benign. I believe Audacity's plan was to convince Merril that he would need a brief moment of their combined powers to jump-start the mirror, or would have been able to possess the mirror itself and pass from it to her. Marethari implies something of the sort.
Marethari gives a reason for not simply freeing and killing the demon. I think she says it would only make it more powerful.

Modifié par Auintus, 26 octobre 2012 - 12:25 .

[BlueMagitek]

LobselVith8 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Emphasis mine. Never happened in the first place.

Is there a way to save Marethi?

It isn't Merrill's fault that Marethari let Audacity loose, or became an abomination. Your point about Merrill is factually inaccurate.

I don't believe so. 

Is Marethari important to Merrill? Edit: Vice versa, Merrill important to Marethari.
Did Marethari die?

If so, then I guess that Merrill has a tendency for everyone who cares about her to die.

Modifié par BlueMagitek, 26 octobre 2012 - 12:33 .

[LobselVith8]

Auintus wrote...

The demon would have pushed and eventually Merril would have made a mistake in her desperation to repair the mirror. Marethari could see that. Demons, especially powerful ones like, say, pride, are very cunning and manipulative. With Merril obsessed enough that Varric has to make sure she eats, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't take much to get her to trip up.

She counted on her own death, she did not count on the entire clan dying too.

For nearly a decade, Merrill didn't release Audacity. The person who seems to have fallen prey to Audacity is Marethari, the person who actually released Audacity from its prison.

Pride didn't motivate Merrill. Merrill pursued technology that she believed could irrevocably improve the lives of the People. I don't see it to be an obsession - was Hawke obsessed with giving his mother a better life? He went into the Deep Roads and risked the lives of his companions for his pursuits. I wouldn't consider Hawke obsessed any more than Merrill; they had goals they ardently pursued. I don't see it as pride for Merrill to try to give the People a better life than they currently had.

[The Elder King]

Auintus wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Merrill might have been strong enough to resist possession. Though of course, that's not a certain thing. That's why I'd have liked to find a way to free Audacity and kill it.

I'm just going to laugh at that first point. You don't resist possession, not permanently. Anders's bit with Justice should be proof enough of that, and that was supposed to be benign. I believe Audacity's plan was to convince Merril that he would need a brief moment of their combined powers to jump-start the mirror, or would have been able to possess the mirror itself and pass from it to her. Marethari implies something of the sort.
Marethari gives a reason for not simply freeing and killing the demon. I think she says it would only make it more powerful.

I probably used the wrong word. I didn't mean resist possession in that way. I meant that she'd be able to kill Audacity. Not every time a demon tries to possess a mage it's a success.
About the bolded part, I could somehow understand the free part (he was sealed because he was too strong to be killed. But in this case, made the boss fight with the abomination bases on that demons a really hellish fight. It gets annoying when I defeat super powerful beings with the same difficulty as another normal boss fight), but the killing part is stupid. I mean, if it becomes stronger if killed, what's the point in possessing someone, and making yourself vulnerable of being permanently killed?

[silentassassin264]

Auintus wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Merrill might have been strong enough to resist possession. Though of course, that's not a certain thing. That's why I'd have liked to find a way to free Audacity and kill it.

I'm just going to laugh at that first point. You don't resist possession, not permanently. Anders's bit with Justice should be proof enough of that, and that was supposed to be benign. I believe Audacity's plan was to convince Merril that he would need a brief moment of their combined powers to jump-start the mirror, or would have been able to possess the mirror itself and pass from it to her. Marethari implies something of the sort.
Marethari gives a reason for not simply freeing and killing the demon. I think she says it would only make it more powerful.

I am pretty sure he was referring to not getting possessed in the first place and not accepting the gift that the demon offered, not letting it inside of her and not going all abomination.  

[The Elder King]

LobselVith8 wrote...

. I don't see it to be an obsession - was Hawke obsessed with giving his mother a better life? He went into the Deep Roads and risked the lives of his companions for his pursuits. I wouldn't consider Hawke obsessed any more than Merrill; they had goals they ardently pursued. I don't see it as pride for Merrill to try to give the People a better life than they currently had.

Lobsel, there was a period where Merrill often forgot to eat. At least in that period, she was too obsessed by her goal. Though the goal itself isn't an obsession.