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[The Elder King]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Auintus wrote...



I'm just going to laugh at that first point. You don't resist possession, not permanently. Anders's bit with Justice should be proof enough of that, and that was supposed to be benign. I believe Audacity's plan was to convince Merril that he would need a brief moment of their combined powers to jump-start the mirror, or would have been able to possess the mirror itself and pass from it to her. Marethari implies something of the sort.
Marethari gives a reason for not simply freeing and killing the demon. I think she says it would only make it more powerful.

I am pretty sure he was referring to not getting possessed in the first place and not accepting the gift that the demon offered, not letting it inside of her and not going all abomination.  

Yep. Expecially because I am one of the people who thing that Anders was plainly stupid on merging with Justice, and that his mind was at least a bit influenced by Justice (and in rivarly he end up fully possessed, in a way that he can't stop Justic anymore. So it's more like that Justice was fine with Anders retaining control as long as his goal and methods were the same of itself. The moment Anders might start to thing that he was going too far, it took control of him).

[Auintus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

For nearly a decade, Merrill didn't release Audacity. The person who seems to have fallen prey to Audacity is Marethari, the person who actually released Audacity from its prison.

Pride didn't motivate Merrill. Merrill pursued technology that she believed could irrevocably improve the lives of the People. I don't see it to be an obsession - was Hawke obsessed with giving his mother a better life? He went into the Deep Roads and risked the lives of his companions for his pursuits. I wouldn't consider Hawke obsessed any more than Merrill; they had goals they ardently pursued. I don't see it as pride for Merrill to try to give the People a better life than they currently had.

Audacity is cunning. It's been imprisoned long enough, what's a few years more? Merril would have caved eventually. That or she finally would have dropped the issue, but I doubt that.

Obsession is when you stop eating to persue a goal, when you risk more than you should. Every person who went with Hawke did so willingly. Merril's association with a demon not far from her clan risks more than herself.
It was pride. Pride that she knew better than her Keeper, pride that she alone could return her people to glory, pride that she could negotiate with a demon and lose nothing.

[silentassassin264]

And Hawke in her/his obsession to find a better life for her/his family, took on Templars, Darkspawn, Dragons, Blood mages, etc etc. Going without eating is nothing compared to willfully putting yourself in position to contract an incurable disease.

[Auintus]

hhh89 wrote...

I probably used the wrong word. I didn't mean resist possession in that way. I meant that she'd be able to kill Audacity. Not every time a demon tries to possess a mage it's a success.
About the bolded part, I could somehow understand the free part (he was sealed because he was too strong to be killed. But in this case, made the boss fight with the abomination bases on that demons a really hellish fight. It gets annoying when I defeat super powerful beings with the same difficulty as another normal boss fight), but the killing part is stupid. I mean, if it becomes stronger if killed, what's the point in possessing someone, and making yourself vulnerable of being permanently killed?

I see. That makes more sense. But I don't think it can attempt to possess her unless she lets it. Part of being imprisoned and all.
I think it is more the fact that as a true demon, it's form wouldn't be purely physical. Bound within Marethari, it can increase her physical resiliance, but its form is still mortal. She said she "made [herself] its prison."

[The Elder King]

silentassassin264 wrote...

And Hawke in her/his obsession to find a better life for her/his family, took on Templars, Darkspawn, Dragons, Blood mages, etc etc. Going without eating is nothing compared to willfully putting yourself in position to contract an incurable disease.

Well, my Hawke did it to protect Bethany from the templars. At the time, there was practically no other choice. He shoud act quickly.
Merrill didn't have to arrive at the point of forgetting to eat. She didn't have a time limit.

[Auintus]

silentassassin264 wrote...

I am pretty sure he was referring to not getting possessed in the first place and not accepting the gift that the demon offered, not letting it inside of her and not going all abomination.  

Yes, I misunderstood. It has been clarified now.

[Xilizhra]

She understands that at the end. That's why she smashes the mirror. She's letting go.

Only if you emotionally abuse her. If you friend her, she still lets go of her obsession, but doesn't smash the Eluvian.

[Auintus]

silentassassin264 wrote...

And Hawke in her/his obsession to find a better life for her/his family, took on Templars, Darkspawn, Dragons, Blood mages, etc etc. Going without eating is nothing compared to willfully putting yourself in position to contract an incurable disease.

Finding a better life only dealt with the darkspawn and the taint. Most of the rest, he was just dragged into.
Out of an entire expedition, only(maybe) one individual contracts the taint. I don't think its incredibly contagious.
In addition, Hawke was trying to keep his family alive, while Merril was trying to dig up a piece of the past better left alone.

[LobselVith8]

Auintus wrote...

The obsession was with the mirror. Did you pay attention to what it did to her? To how far she went for one scrap of culture she was warned to set aside?
Regardless, I am not blaming Merril. She made her choice; the price should have been hers to pay. Marethari interfered and paid that price instead. Marethari made the choice that got her killed, but Merril ensured that that choice had to be made.
I am not condemning anyone. I love the girl to death. However, there is a difference between "proactive" and "obsessive." And not even about the spiral. She was obsessed, completely with that damn mirror. There is so much more to Elven culture than the Eluvians, yet she couldn't see the price. Such is the nature of obsession. If she had given up on that one piece and focused on something else, the entire situation would have been avoided. She understands that at the end. That's why she smashes the mirror. She's letting go.

Merrill believed it could save her people from their crumbling existence. I paid attention to how committed Merrill was to restoring technology that might have been able to positively impact the People. I respected Merrill for trying to do make a difference, especially in contrast to Hawke's passivity.

Merrill was determined to help the People, no different than Hawke being determined to get wealthy and change the lot of his family be venturing into the darkspawn riddled Deep Roads. The Eluvian offered the opportunity to give the elves revolutionary technology.

I don't see the point in Rivalry; Hawke knows nothing about elven culture and the Eluvian, so how can he tell Merrill what to do from a place of ignorance? The contrasting dialogue with Anders and Merrill after Dissent suggests that Merrill is a stronger person in Friendship versus Rivalry. Merrill moves on from the Eluvian in Friendship as well, so I don't see much merit in Rivalry with her.

[The Elder King]

Auintus wrote...


I see. That makes more sense. But I don't think it can attempt to possess her unless she lets it. Part of being imprisoned and all.
I think it is more the fact that as a true demon, it's form wouldn't be purely physical. Bound within Marethari, it can increase her physical resiliance, but its form is still mortal. She said she "made [herself] its prison."

So Audacity can't be freed without a host that agree (or is forced to) to be possessed?

[Auintus]

Xilizhra wrote...

She understands that at the end. That's why she smashes the mirror. She's letting go.

Only if you emotionally abuse her. If you friend her, she still lets go of her obsession, but doesn't smash the Eluvian.

I thought she broke it either way. Just checked on youtube, my mistake.
It's not emotional abuse. You just try to keep her from blood magic, and end her obsession early.

[The Elder King]

Auintus wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

And Hawke in her/his obsession to find a better life for her/his family, took on Templars, Darkspawn, Dragons, Blood mages, etc etc. Going without eating is nothing compared to willfully putting yourself in position to contract an incurable disease.

Finding a better life only dealt with the darkspawn and the taint. Most of the rest, he was just dragged into.
Out of an entire expedition, only(maybe) one individual contracts the taint. I don't think its incredibly contagious.
In addition, Hawke was trying to keep his family alive, while Merril was trying to dig up a piece of the past better left alone.

On that, I don't agree. Elven magic and technology could be useful. Marethari stopped the taint in the Dalish elf Origin, although temporarily, but without her magic, he would've died long before reaching Ostagar (or he would've become a ghoul). So far, we have no proof of human magic being able of doing this. And the Keepers don't have access to all the elven magic (it's worthy to point out that elven magic isn't as powerful as blood magic, but it's uses in different fields could benefits greatly the elves).

[Auintus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Merrill believed it could save her people from their crumbling existence. I paid attention to how committed Merrill was to restoring technology that might have been able to positively impact the People. I respected Merrill for trying to do make a difference, especially in contrast to Hawke's passivity.

Merrill was determined to help the People, no different than Hawke being determined to get wealthy and change the lot of his family be venturing into the darkspawn riddled Deep Roads. The Eluvian offered the opportunity to give the elves revolutionary technology.

I don't see the point in Rivalry; Hawke knows nothing about elven culture and the Eluvian, so how can he tell Merrill what to do from a place of ignorance? The contrasting dialogue with Anders and Merrill after Dissent suggests that Merrill is a stronger person in Friendship versus Rivalry. Merrill moves on from the Eluvian in Friendship as well, so I don't see much merit in Rivalry with her.

Yes, her determination is admirable. It is an incredibly noble goal, up until she becomes obsessive.

I would appreciate it if you would quit comparing Hawke and Merril. Trying to get your family out of a rat hole is quite a bit different than digging up a dirty piece of glass that comes with demons and abominations.

A place of ignorance in elven culture maybe, but his sister is/was a mage, and he might have been as well. He knows enough about magic to avoid dealing with demons.

[silentassassin264]

Auintus wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

And Hawke in her/his obsession to find a better life for her/his family, took on Templars, Darkspawn, Dragons, Blood mages, etc etc. Going without eating is nothing compared to willfully putting yourself in position to contract an incurable disease.

Finding a better life only dealt with the darkspawn and the taint. Most of the rest, he was just dragged into.
Out of an entire expedition, only(maybe) one individual contracts the taint. I don't think its incredibly contagious.
In addition, Hawke was trying to keep his family alive, while Merril was trying to dig up a piece of the past better left alone.

Fighting the Templars with Anders was required to get the map to go in the deep roads.  The rest was necessary to become an investor and actually get rich.  And only one person can get it out of plot convenience not because it wasn't possible.  It would have been a pretty crappy game if you could randomly catch the blight in the Deep Roads and get an unavoidable nonstandard gameover.  Hawke was always at risk of getting the blight down there even it it never happened, just like Merrill was always at risk of being possessed even if it never happened.  And Hawke's family would have been just fine staying in Lowtown with Gamlen and working for the smugglers or mercenaries.  Hawke just had more grandiose dreams for her/his family, just like Merrill had better plans for her clan than be drifters.

[Auintus]

hhh89 wrote...

So Audacity can't be freed without a host that agree (or is forced to) to be possessed?

I'm not certain, but that's what I take from what Marethari said. There's no need to accept it as truth.

[Auintus]

hhh89 wrote...

On that, I don't agree. Elven magic and technology could be useful. Marethari stopped the taint in the Dalish elf Origin, although temporarily, but without her magic, he would've died long before reaching Ostagar (or he would've become a ghoul). So far, we have no proof of human magic being able of doing this. And the Keepers don't have access to all the elven magic (it's worthy to point out that elven magic isn't as powerful as blood magic, but it's uses in different fields could benefits greatly the elves).

I just meant the one piece. With the price it came at, it would be better to look elsewhere.

[LobselVith8]

Auintus wrote...

I believe Audacity's plan was to convince Merrill that he would need a brief moment of their combined powers to jump-start the mirror, or would have been able to possess the mirror itself and pass from it to her.

So Audacity waited several years? Why not convince her immediately? What if Merrill perished in Kirkwall? Why would Audacity risk his only opportunity at freedom by waiting nearly a decade? This premise can't stand on it's own two feet.

Auintus wrote...

Marethari implies something of the sort.

Actually, Marethari claims in Act III that Audacity would escape through the Eluvian.

[The Elder King]

Auintus wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

So Audacity can't be freed without a host that agree (or is forced to) to be possessed?

I'm not certain, but that's what I take from what Marethari said. There's no need to accept it as truth.

Well, considering DA2's motto "No matter what you do, the game will screw you" I doubt that the option to free and kill it wouldn't have come back to bite you.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Auintus wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

So Audacity can't be freed without a host that agree (or is forced to) to be possessed?

I'm not certain, but that's what I take from what Marethari said. There's no need to accept it as truth.

Or she might have meant it comes out of the mirror in its true shape, which is little better. It'd would very likely attempt to kill Merrill, largely because Merrill would know how much danger this puts the clan in and attack it. The demon would have less power in this form, but on the other hand I think an abomination who is aware of what's happening can try to weaken the demon. Actually, maybe that's why gameplay abominations are less powerful than lore abominations.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 26 octobre 2012 - 01:04 .

[Auintus]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Fighting the Templars with Anders was required to get the map to go in the deep roads.  The rest was necessary to become an investor and actually get rich.  And only one person can get it out of plot convenience not because it wasn't possible.  It would have been a pretty crappy game if you could randomly catch the blight in the Deep Roads and get an unavoidable nonstandard gameover.  Hawke was always at risk of getting the blight down there even it it never happened, just like Merrill was always at risk of being possessed even if it never happened.  And Hawke's family would have been just fine staying in Lowtown with Gamlen and working for the smugglers or mercenaries.  Hawke just had more grandiose dreams for her/his family, just like Merrill had better plans for her clan than be drifters.

Alright, consider the Legion of the Dead. From what I understand, few of them are lost to the taint. Let's not metagame, shall we? Plenty of the rest of the expedition could have caught something.

They've known a better life and Hawke's mother wouldn't have made Lowtown long. Also, who would want to stay with Gamlen?

[The Elder King]

LobselVith8 wrote...



Actually, Marethari claims in Act III that Audacity would escape through the Eluvian.

The problem is, will escape if Merrill (or the Eluvian's possessor) would want to or would it be able to escape regardless? In the second case, letting Merrill be alone with the Eluvian, with Audacity free to escape in any moment, is suicide.

[LobselVith8]

hhh89 wrote...

Lobsel, there was a period where Merrill often forgot to eat. At least in that period, she was too obsessed by her goal. Though the goal itself isn't an obsession.

You mean the one scene where Varric and Hawke, where she is frustrated over her inability to fully restore the Eluvian? I don't see how that means she's obsessive. Why is it that Hawke isn't called "obsessive" when he ventures into the Deep Roads for a fortune, but Merrill is called "obsessive" because she's trying to end the plight of the People through revolutionary elven technology that may be capable of changing the lives of the elves across the continent?

[Auintus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Auintus wrote...

I believe Audacity's plan was to convince Merrill that he would need a brief moment of their combined powers to jump-start the mirror, or would have been able to possess the mirror itself and pass from it to her.

So Audacity waited several years? Why not convince her immediately? What if Merrill perished in Kirkwall? Why would Audacity risk his only opportunity at freedom by waiting nearly a decade? This premise can't stand on it's own two feet.

Auintus wrote...

Marethari implies something of the sort.

Actually, Marethari claims in Act III that Audacity would escape through the Eluvian.

"Hey, you should let me possess you. It's the only way I can fix the mirror." Real subtle. True manipulation takes time, push it too fast and you lose your chance completely...Not that I would know that.

Yeah, into Merril. I assumed she meant as a tool, not literally.

[Auintus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Lobsel, there was a period where Merrill often forgot to eat. At least in that period, she was too obsessed by her goal. Though the goal itself isn't an obsession.

You mean the one scene where Varric and Hawke, where she is frustrated over her inability to fully restore the Eluvian? I don't see how that means she's obsessive. Why is it that Hawke isn't called "obsessive" when he ventures into the Deep Roads for a fortune, but Merrill is called "obsessive" because she's trying to end the plight of the People through revolutionary elven technology that may be capable of changing the lives of the elves across the continent?

We've been over this. Wanting something doesn't make you obsessive. Letting what you want consume you makes you obsessive.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

LobselVith8 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Lobsel, there was a period where Merrill often forgot to eat. At least in that period, she was too obsessed by her goal. Though the goal itself isn't an obsession.

You mean the one scene where Varric and Hawke, where she is frustrated over her inability to fully restore the Eluvian? I don't see how that means she's obsessive. Why is it that Hawke isn't called "obsessive" when he ventures into the Deep Roads for a fortune, but Merrill is called "obsessive" because she's trying to end the plight of the People through revolutionary elven technology that may be capable of changing the lives of the elves across the continent?

One assumes Hawke brought some sort of hardtack.