2177 réponses à ce sujet

[Vandicus]

SgtElias wrote...

Arokel wrote...

Auintus wrote...

So, back on topic: We clearly wouldn't be allowed to randomly take control of any individual, but a blood mage should be able to at least influence some characters in the storyline, right?

Yeah they should.  Maybe similar to what Idunna did in DA2.  Making someone kill themself.  Thats dark.

Yeah, that's kind of messed up. I mean, it'd be great for those who're playing a blood mage, don't get me wrong. I'm all for more options in games, even if they're twisted.

I usually play mages in both DA:O and DA:2, but I've never made a blood mage. Still, having this option present would be great for those who do, I think. Especially if your companions are present. I imagine at least one of them would be horrified and call you out on it. Fantastic.

I imagine quite a few of them would be at least seriously disturbed by the implications. If you learn your best friend has mind control, can you trust your own thoughts?

Definitely an interesting power that should be brought up more in the series.

[Auintus]

SgtElias wrote...

Arokel wrote...

Auintus wrote...

So, back on topic: We clearly wouldn't be allowed to randomly take control of any individual, but a blood mage should be able to at least influence some characters in the storyline, right?

Yeah they should.  Maybe similar to what Idunna did in DA2.  Making someone kill themself.  Thats dark.

Yeah, that's kind of messed up. I mean, it'd be great for those who're playing a blood mage, don't get me wrong. I'm all for more options in games, even if they're twisted.

I usually play mages in both DA:O and DA:2, but I've never made a blood mage. Still, having this option present would be great for those who do, I think. Especially if your companions are present. I imagine at least one of them would be horrified and call you out on it. Fantastic.

Bringing back darker, morally questionable options would be a step towards recognizing blood mage better. Still, I'd also want kudos for being a blood mage that refuses to go that far.

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Cultist wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
The only price for it is MILLIONS of dead and a dark age period.. <_<

And even with the Archdemons dead, the darkspawn are still there.

After our long conversation about Leliana, I understand that proofs are not your strong side, but you surely would point me at any lore part where millions died?
And isn't dark ages started thanks to terrorist woman, who caused "droughts, famines and flooding, which decimated the Imperium's farmland and, consequently, troops"? Imperium were weakened after First Blight, but thanks to Andraqste, it fell.
Without Archdemon, darkspawn is disorganized and could be fought, what Tevinter managed to do quite well, I bet with Blood Magic as well.

The Tevinter Imperium never fell.... Nor was it Andraste that caused the drought, flood and famine. Unless of course you are arguing for the divinity of Andraste and the existance of the Maker. And while millions might be an exageration, having a war going on for over 100 years, are likely to rack up quite the death toll. It is a little thing called logic.
And Darkspawn are only disorganized without their leadership, as soon as a significantly powerful Darkspawn rises, the Darkspawn in general organizes under it.

Thats like saying the our dark ages never happend because the byzantine empire survived. Whatever her reasons Andraste did cause the dark ages even if she had not intended to do so.

No..... It is like saying, the Roman Empire didn't fall until many hundreds of years after the fall of Rome(city). Which is correct. Cultist said the Tevitner Imperium fell, I merely pointed out that it never fell, despite its setbacks.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I have a very realistic view.

I wouldn't trust you with that power.
I wouldnt' trust my mother with that power.
I wouldn't trust myself with that power.
I wouldn't trust no one. Absolutely, utterly no one.
Because that is the only sane stance to have regarding such power.

Mate your saying that you lack  both disicipline and morals ? Oh and dont put anyone else on your level its insulting

Now, what I'm saying that unlike you (apparently) I do not have such arrogance to think myself uncorruptable.
Arrogance is the first step to the fall, the one you already taken.

MODEDIT: Removed inflammatory comments

by eroru
By that logic of utter fear of BM you shouldn't condemn anyone of blood
magic. It could be a BM precticioner just manipluating you thinking that
someone else is one.

You're speaking in the language of paranoia, imho.

Justified paranoia.

If no one with mind contorl cna be trusted, the the only logical choice is to kill them all.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 01 octobre 2012 - 10:33 .

[Vandicus]

Auintus wrote...

Bringing back darker, morally questionable options would be a step towards recognizing blood mage better. Still, I'd also want kudos for being a blood mage that refuses to go that far.

On that note I believe one of the companions leaked is a "good guy" magister. Perfect source for a mentor figure on the use and morality of blood magic.

[SgtElias]

Vandicus wrote...

SgtElias wrote...

Yeah, that's kind of messed up. I mean, it'd be great for those who're playing a blood mage, don't get me wrong. I'm all for more options in games, even if they're twisted.

I usually play mages in both DA:O and DA:2, but I've never made a blood mage. Still, having this option present would be great for those who do, I think. Especially if your companions are present. I imagine at least one of them would be horrified and call you out on it. Fantastic.

I imagine quite a few of them would be at least seriously disturbed by the implications. If you learn your best friend has mind control, can you trust your own thoughts?

Definitely an interesting power that should be brought up more in the series.

Well, I was hoping more than one would be like, "The hell, dude!" but since we don't have any idea who our companions are, I figured I'd phrase it "at least one," and hedge my bets.

[eroeru]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

by eroru
By that logic of utter fear of BM you shouldn't condemn anyone of blood
magic. It could be a BM precticioner just manipluating you thinking that
someone else is one.

You're speaking in the language of paranoia, imho.

Justified paranoia.

If no one with mind contorl cna be trusted, the the only logical choice is to kill them all.

Kill everyone living?
How can you differentiate between a BM user and normal folk if your mind is being controlled to the extent you described?

Modifié par eroeru, 01 octobre 2012 - 09:46 .

[DKJaigen]

Vandicus wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...



Your not lacking in morals. But you do lack in discipline to hold these kind of abilities. But you never trained for it so i cannot blame you for it. 

Does discipline constitute never using these powers? If so then even possessing the powers is fairly meaningless. If discipline means attempting to achieve some form of good, the question remains, whose form of good should be achieved?

Vandicus in my line of work i have a gun and im proud of myself that i never had to use it despite having  20 encounters with people  who where armed with knives broken bottles or clubs. This is because i spend years training and learned to apply the correct tools to whatever the situation is. But make no mistake that i will use a gun if the situation calls for. 

Because of that i see bloodmagic as a tool. A very powerful tool that not everyone should wield. And those that wield it should be trained in it. Denying yourself tools because they can be dangerous in the wrong hands is fatal.
Because these tools always find themselves in the wrong hands. Then you need somebody with the knowledge skills and tools to undo whatever damage is being done. 

[Shadow Fox]

eroeru wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

by eroru
By that logic of utter fear of BM you shouldn't condemn anyone of blood
magic. It could be a BM precticioner just manipluating you thinking that
someone else is one.

You're speaking in the language of paranoia, imho.

Justified paranoia.

If no one with mind contorl cna be trusted, the the only logical choice is to kill them all.

Kill everyone living?
How can you differentiate between a BM user and normal folk if your mind is being controlled to the extent you described?

Isn't that why the Circles were formed?

[Vandicus]

eroeru wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

by eroru
By that logic of utter fear of BM you shouldn't condemn anyone of blood
magic. It could be a BM precticioner just manipluating you thinking that
someone else is one.

You're speaking in the language of paranoia, imho.

Justified paranoia.

If no one with mind contorl cna be trusted, the the only logical choice is to kill them all.

Kill everyone living?
How can you differentiate between a BM user and normal folk if your mind is being controlled to the extent you described?

Isn't that what the templars are for? Lore based arguments(existence of blood magic premise) must acknowledge lore based answers.

[Xilizhra]

The Tevinter Imperium never fell.... Nor was it Andraste that caused the drought, flood and famine. Unless of course you are arguing for the divinity of Andraste and the existance of the Maker.

Actually, she could have done so if she was an OGB mage as well.

[SgtElias]

Vandicus wrote...

On that note I believe one of the companions leaked is a "good guy" magister. Perfect source for a mentor figure on the use and morality of blood magic.

Honestly, if the rumors are true and he's not completely imaginary, I hope he's not a blood mage. I adore the idea of a goody-two shoes Tevinter magister.

And if he were a blood mage, well . . . I'm sure there will be some interesting dialogue!

[Vandicus]

DKJaigen wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...



Your not lacking in morals. But you do lack in discipline to hold these kind of abilities. But you never trained for it so i cannot blame you for it. 

Does discipline constitute never using these powers? If so then even possessing the powers is fairly meaningless. If discipline means attempting to achieve some form of good, the question remains, whose form of good should be achieved?

Vandicus in my line of work i have a gun and im proud of myself that i never had to use it despite having  20 encounters with people  who where armed with knives broken bottles or clubs. This is because i spend years training and learned to apply the correct tools to whatever the situation is. But make no mistake that i will use a gun if the situation calls for. 

Because of that i see bloodmagic as a tool. A very powerful tool that not everyone should wield. And those that wield it should be trained in it. Denying yourself tools because they can be dangerous in the wrong hands is fatal.
Because these tools always find themselves in the wrong hands. Then you need somebody with the knowledge skills and tools to undo whatever damage is being done. 

But one does not need blood magic to stop or counter blood magic users. I totally get where you're coming from in regards to denying oneself viable options, but there hasn't yet been a case where pure blood magic has been used to achieve a clear moral good that couldn't be achieved another way. This is why blood magic is the most restricted and forbidden form of magic.

[Xilizhra]

SgtElias wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

On that note I believe one of the companions leaked is a "good guy" magister. Perfect source for a mentor figure on the use and morality of blood magic.

Honestly, if the rumors are true and he's not completely imaginary, I hope he's not a blood mage. I adore the idea of a goody-two shoes Tevinter magister.

And if he were a blood mage, well . . . I'm sure there will be some interesting dialogue!

His not being one would be incredibly obnoxious and a push in the reactionary direction of blood mages being unable to be good-aligned. Which was disproven with Merrill anyway, but I'm afraid of them still trying it.

But one does not need blood magic to stop or counter blood magic users. I
totally get where you're coming from in regards to denying oneself
viable options, but there hasn't yet been a case where pure blood magic
has been used to achieve a clear moral good that couldn't be achieved
another way. This is why blood magic is the most restricted and
forbidden form of magic.

There was cleansing the Eluvian shard.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 01 octobre 2012 - 10:00 .

[Wulfram]

Xilizhra wrote...

There was cleansing the Eluvian shard.

Could have been achieved via Lyrium.  And not really a clear moral good

[Xilizhra]

Wulfram wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

There was cleansing the Eluvian shard.

Could have been achieved via Lyrium.  And not really a clear moral good

Could have been achieved with huge gobs of it. But that aside... with luck, DA3 will give us a chance to achieve a clear moral good that can only be achieved with blood magic.

Although there's another one: tracking Leandra in All that Remains.

[Vandicus]

Xilizhra wrote...


There was cleansing the Eluvian shard.

Why I say clear moral good and also specify, cannot be done through other means.

Merril in general manages to practice a relatively benign form of blood magic, in that she doesn't kill people to use it. The Eluvian appears to be some form of prototype for what the Magisters did on a massive scale during the Black City event. I would consider the end result of the Black City event overwhelmingly negative(even the destruction of the Tevinter Imperium's leadership did nothing to prevent new nobilities arising to take their place) and any attempt to recreate the type of magic that made it possible to be questionable at best.

Even if we assume that recreating an Eluvian is a good idea, we don't have evidence that it would be impossible to do so using regular magic. Sure blood magic is faster, but its not necessarily worth the risk. (the risk of one more abomination or person who now has greater power than they can control)

[Vandicus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

There was cleansing the Eluvian shard.

Could have been achieved via Lyrium.  And not really a clear moral good

Could have been achieved with huge gobs of it. But that aside... with luck, DA3 will give us a chance to achieve a clear moral good that can only be achieved with blood magic.

Although there's another one: tracking Leandra in All that Remains.

That's a much better example( if not for the whole Gascard is a complete d-bag part). Blood magic as an emergency method of tracking people is something which is totally justifiable, especially when used to save lives.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

There was cleansing the Eluvian shard.

Could have been achieved via Lyrium.  And not really a clear moral good

Could have been achieved with huge gobs of it. But that aside... with luck, DA3 will give us a chance to achieve a clear moral good that can only be achieved with blood magic.

Although there's another one: tracking Leandra in All that Remains.

Could also be achieved through other means. Not nearly as fast though.

[Xilizhra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

There was cleansing the Eluvian shard.

Could have been achieved via Lyrium.  And not really a clear moral good

Could have been achieved with huge gobs of it. But that aside... with luck, DA3 will give us a chance to achieve a clear moral good that can only be achieved with blood magic.

Although there's another one: tracking Leandra in All that Remains.

Could also be achieved through other means. Not nearly as fast though.

Yes, and this is one of those situations where time is very much of the essence.

[Shadow Fox]

Wulfram wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

There was cleansing the Eluvian shard.

Could have been achieved via Lyrium.  And not really a clear moral good

More like Merril's arrogance.

[SgtElias]

Xilizhra wrote...

SgtElias wrote...

Honestly, if the rumors are true and he's not completely imaginary, I hope he's not a blood mage. I adore the idea of a goody-two shoes Tevinter magister.

And if he were a blood mage, well . . . I'm sure there will be some interesting dialogue!

His not being one would be incredibly obnoxious and a push in the reactionary direction of blood mages being unable to be good-aligned. Which was disproven with Merrill anyway, but I'm afraid of them still trying it.

I didn't mean to imply he couldn't be a "good guy" and be a blood mage. I just thought it'd be interesting for a Tevinter mage to be . . . NOT a blood mage, like all the sterotypes proclaim.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

There was cleansing the Eluvian shard.

Could have been achieved via Lyrium.  And not really a clear moral good

Could have been achieved with huge gobs of it. But that aside... with luck, DA3 will give us a chance to achieve a clear moral good that can only be achieved with blood magic.

Although there's another one: tracking Leandra in All that Remains.

Could also be achieved through other means. Not nearly as fast though.

Yes, and this is one of those situations where time is very much of the essence.

It was also a case of dumb luck. It was lucky that Gascard had made a phylactery to track Alessa. ANd I don't think anyone wants the various states of Thedas to hold vast stockpiles of Phylacteries for every living citizen of Thedas.

[Vandicus]

SgtElias wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

SgtElias wrote...

Honestly, if the rumors are true and he's not completely imaginary, I hope he's not a blood mage. I adore the idea of a goody-two shoes Tevinter magister.

And if he were a blood mage, well . . . I'm sure there will be some interesting dialogue!

His not being one would be incredibly obnoxious and a push in the reactionary direction of blood mages being unable to be good-aligned. Which was disproven with Merrill anyway, but I'm afraid of them still trying it.

I didn't mean to imply he couldn't be a "good guy" and be a blood mage. I just thought it'd be interesting for a Tevinter mage to be . . . NOT a blood mage, like all the sterotypes proclaim.

Subversions do tend to make for more interesting characters. It'd be pretty tough to survive the life of a Tevinter magister without using blood magic to amp up one's powers for duels and self-defense during assassination attempts. On the other hand, imagine someone who has enough raw natural power to not need to resort to blood magic. 

[Vandicus]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It was also a case of dumb luck. It was lucky that Gascard had made a phylactery to track Alessa. ANd I don't think anyone wants the various states of Thedas to hold vast stockpiles of Phylacteries for every living citizen of Thedas.

It could work. Since it doesn't need to be an emergency phylactery tracking the templar method could be used instead(so no risk of a mage going power crazy).