2177 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia Nox]

@hhh89: And they'll have to carve out a nation the old fashion way. But they've got a LONG way to go before becoming a cohesive force... and magic mirrors aren't going to fix anything.

[TheJediSaint]

LobselVith8 wrote...


Considering that Hawke knows nothing about elven culture, about the Eluvian, and possibly about blood magic, I don't see how he's the authority who Merrill needs to capitulate to. Merrill is Dalish - the entire premise behind the People is for them to regain what they lost because of slavery and invasion - their culture, their language, their heritage, and their technology.

He know's that it killed someone and that it scares the living crap out of the Keeper, who does know a thing or two about elven culture, Eluvians, and whatnot.  

Also, part of the premise of the Dalish is that much of what is lost may never be found again.  Which means Merrils understanding of the Eluvian is incomplete, at best.

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's a double standard. Hawke certainly has no problem engaging in dangerous missions or tasks that enable him to earn money or a fortune, such as going into the Deep Roads to purchase a mansion, but Merrill can't explore ancient elven technology that could benefit countless elves across the continent?

Hardly.  Everyone who followed Hawke into the deep roads was there of their own volition.  

Merrill never asked anyone if they were okay with her messing with a dangerous magical artifact right in the middle of a city.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 26 octobre 2012 - 08:26 .

[Cody]

TheJediSaint wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...


Considering that Hawke knows nothing about elven culture, about the Eluvian, and possibly about blood magic, I don't see how he's the authority who Merrill needs to capitulate to. Merrill is Dalish - the entire premise behind the People is for them to regain what they lost because of slavery and invasion - their culture, their language, their heritage, and their technology.

He know's that it killed someone and that it scares the living crap out of the Keeper, who does know a thing or two about elven culture, Eluvians, and whatnot.  

Also, part of the premise of the Dalish is that much of what is lost may never be found again.  Which means Merrils understanding of the Eluvian is incomplete, at best.

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's a double standard. Hawke certainly has no problem engaging in dangerous missions or tasks that enable him to earn money or a fortune, such as going into the Deep Roads to purchase a mansion, but Merrill can't explore ancient elven technology that could benefit countless elves across the continent?

Hardly.  Everyone who followed Hawke into the deep roads was there of their own volition.  

Merrill never asked anyone if they were okay with her messing with a dangerous magical artifact right in the middle of a city.

A: Not dangerous, it is not tainted and there is nothing even remotely dangerous about it. If it was so dangerous Witch hunt would have involved fighting a monster after it came out of the eluvian she was by and killed Morrigan.

And as it was said multiple time before. The keeper admits to know nothing about the Eluvians. Merril has actually studied them. And it wasn't the mirror that killed someone it was the taint on the mirror. Which was cleansed.

[LobselVith8]

TheJediSaint wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering that Hawke knows nothing about elven culture, about the Eluvian, and possibly about blood magic, I don't see how he's the authority who Merrill needs to capitulate to. Merrill is Dalish - the entire premise behind the People is for them to regain what they lost because of slavery and invasion - their culture, their language, their heritage, and their technology.

He know's that it killed someone and that it scares the living crap out of the Keeper, who does know a thing or two about elven culture, Eluvians, and whatnot.  

Merrill studied the lore on the Eluvans and extrapolated information from the shard. Marethari gives no indication she made any research into the Eluvian. Her argument in Act II pertains to the taint, which Merrill already cleansed from the shard, and her attempts to coerce Merrill into returning to the clan by spreading dark rumors about her (that lead to Pol's death).

TheJediSaint wrote...

Also, part of the premise of the Dalish is that much of what is lost may never be found again.  Which means Merrils understanding of the Eluvian is incomplete, at best.

Merrill seems to know the most about the Eluvians (in terms of characters we have encountered in the narrative), second only to Morrigan.

TheJediSaint wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's a double standard. Hawke certainly has no problem engaging in dangerous missions or tasks that enable him to earn money or a fortune, such as going into the Deep Roads to purchase a mansion, but Merrill can't explore ancient elven technology that could benefit countless elves across the continent? 

Hardly.  Everyone who followed Hawke into the deep roads was there of their own volition.  

Merrill never asked anyone if they were okay with her messing with a dangerous magical artifact right in the middle of a city. 

Hawke punching his way to being Champion doesn't really compare to Merrill trying to help end the plight of the People.

Also, Marethari argued it was dangerous because of the taint in Act II, which was already removed (which is evident from the fact that Merrill isn't a ghoul, like the elves who encountered the remaining shards of the Eluvian were in Witch Hunt). The Eluvians were used for communication, and as a gateway into a place "beyond this world, and beyond the Fade."

Modifié par LobselVith8, 26 octobre 2012 - 08:34 .

[TheJediSaint]

CodyMelch wrote...


A: Not dangerous, it is not tainted and there is nothing even remotely dangerous about it. If it was so dangerous Witch hunt would have involved fighting a monster after it came out of the eluvian she was by and killed Morrigan.

And as it was said multiple time before. The keeper admits to know nothing about the Eluvians. Merril has actually studied them. And it wasn't the mirror that killed someone it was the taint on the mirror. Which was cleansed.

Ancient magical artifacts don't need to be tainted to be dangerous.  Also, Morrigan had a few advantages.

1. She had Flemeth's book. 
2. She had a stolen books of lost Elven trivia.
3. She had the good sense to only use an Eluvian that was not already broken.

Merrill may have studdied them, that does not mean she knew enough to use it safely.   And it was pretty clear she was being manipulated by a demon as part of it's plan to escape via the Eluvian.

[LobselVith8]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@The Hierophant: Stop oppressing Merrill with your morals and your intellect.

Merrill's a blood mage - she's lacking in either of those things.

Merrill is an example of a good person who uses blood magic. She doesn't think Feynriel should be handed over to the Sloth Demon. Despite all the crap Anders and Fenris give Merrill for several years, she's the one who argues against handing over Fenris to Danarius, and who suggests that Anders deserves a chance to atone for what he's done.

[The Elder King]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@hhh89: And they'll have to carve out a nation the old fashion way. But they've got a LONG way to go before becoming a cohesive force... and magic mirrors aren't going to fix anything.

My point was more than city elves should have an equal treatment, and there's no explanations for their situation in Andrastian places. And I doubt that the Chantry or a human king can say "they're fine with their situation". The city elves aren't a threat for the society they live on. They should be treated in the same way as humans, not like second class citizens.
The dalish, if in your post you meant that they'll have to make a war to have a state, I doubt there's any chance that this option will lead to success. Even counting all the dalish's clans, they don't have the power to face the southern Thedas nations. I doubt that they'll won against Orlais or Nevarra, and the nations of the south will probably make an alliance to stop the dalish. They could try a diplomatic approach, but if the other side (most likely the Chantry) doesn't change a lot, I'll doubt that they'll find a solution.
They might try to take advantage of the current situation (since Fenris suggested that the clans's gathering is being programmed) by either taking side with one of the two factions or by offering the Chantry their aid to resolve the conflict, but I don't know if the dalish are willing to work with either the mages, the templars or the Chantry. The former and the latters (combined) destroyed their realms.

[Auintus]

BlueMagitek wrote...

That's not the point. ~_~

But it is. You don't have to be an angry, violent person to utilize anger in battle.

[Auintus]

Terrorize69 wrote...

I hope that by picking blood magic, we get all "Renegade Shepard" and "Crazy Meredith" on people



Fancy red eyes for us blood mages

<_< It's stuff like this that gives Lotion Soronnar reason for his statements.<_<

[Cody]

TheJediSaint wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...


A: Not dangerous, it is not tainted and there is nothing even remotely dangerous about it. If it was so dangerous Witch hunt would have involved fighting a monster after it came out of the eluvian she was by and killed Morrigan.

And as it was said multiple time before. The keeper admits to know nothing about the Eluvians. Merril has actually studied them. And it wasn't the mirror that killed someone it was the taint on the mirror. Which was cleansed.

Ancient magical artifacts don't need to be tainted to be dangerous.  Also, Morrigan had a few advantages.

1. She had Flemeth's book. 
2. She had a stolen books of lost Elven trivia.
3. She had the good sense to only use an Eluvian that was not already broken.

Merrill may have studdied them, that does not mean she knew enough to use it safely.   And it was pretty clear she was being manipulated by a demon as part of it's plan to escape via the Eluvian.

The book of Flemeth's did not have much info on the subject. The Elven book did. And Merril wasn't planing on using the mirror while it was still broken. She was repairing it. That was her main goal, to fix and repair it. Which involved more than gluing it together.

Even then the only thing dangerous about it was the taint. Otherwise it is a harmless artifact used my her people once. Something she knew of. She knew what it used to be and what it did before. Without the taint there was no danger with it.

And no, it was clear that the demon was trying to manipulate her into allowing it to possess her so it can escape it's confinement. Not through the Eluvian. Marithari tried this argument despite having nothing to back her claim up.

Which in the end the demon probably would not have succeeded due to Hawke and co being there ready to talk her out of it incase she even thinks about agreeing to the idea(she was just there to talk to it in the first place) and even if it did possess her it would have been killed by hawke and co.

In the end the only danger was the demon. And it's want to possess her. In the end Marithari ended up allowing it to possess her despite that it would have indangered her entire clan.

[TheJediSaint]

CodyMelch wrote...

The book of Flemeth's did not have much info on the subject.

And you know the content of Flemeth's book, how?

CodyMelch wrote...
Even then the only thing dangerous about it was the taint. Otherwise it is a harmless artifact used my her people once. Something she knew of. She knew what it used to be and what it did before. Without the taint there was no danger with it.

There's no such thing as a "harmless" ancient magical artifact.   

CodyMelch wrote...
And no, it was clear that the demon was trying to manipulate her into allowing it to possess her so it can escape it's confinement. Not through the Eluvian. Marithari tried this argument despite having nothing to back her claim up.

And how do you back up the claim that it's not dangerous?

CodyMelch wrote...
In the end the only danger was the demon. And it's want to possess her. In the end Marithari ended up allowing it to possess her despite that it would have indangered her entire clan.

She did it because she was trying to save Merrill.  She sacrficed herself because she thought it was the only way to save Merrill from herself.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 26 octobre 2012 - 08:53 .

[General User]

TheJediSaint wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's a double standard. Hawke certainly has no problem engaging in dangerous missions or tasks that enable him to earn money or a fortune, such as going into the Deep Roads to purchase a mansion, but Merrill can't explore ancient elven technology that could benefit countless elves across the continent?

Hardly.  Everyone who followed Hawke into the deep roads was there of their own volition.  

Merrill never asked anyone if they were okay with her messing with a dangerous magical artifact right in the middle of a city.

Aye.  Quite so.  Merrill set up what is roughly Thedas' equivalent of a energetic materials research facility in the middle of a crowded urban residential neighborhood.  That alone qualifies her to wear the "I have bad judgement" scarlet letter for the rest of the game.

Modifié par General User, 26 octobre 2012 - 09:06 .

[Cody]

TheJediSaint wrote...

And you know the content of Flemeth's book, how?

Could ask you the same thing seeing as you seemed to think there was despite her not mentioning otherwise.

There's no such thing as a "harmless" ancient magical artifact.   

Your kidding me right? Sacred Urn of Ashes? Anvil of the void?(not inherently good or evil)
The Eluvians?(same as anvil in this case)

And how do you back up the claim that it's not dangerous?

The fact that it didn't hurt Morrigan or the Warden and Finn when they used the Eluvian shards to locate her is one example. That and the bit about there being records of them being used by both the Teviners and the Elves with no drawbacks.

She did it because she was trying to save Merrill.  She sacrficed herself because she thought it was the only way to save Merrill from herself.

AHAHAHA. Bull. If she wanted to save Merril she would have not let the demon possess her. Since the demon just ended up attacking them anyway! And by doing so she put her ENTIRE CLAN in danger since she had no way of knowing that the demon would for some reason keep them all safe. It could have went on a rampage ffs. Then of course there is the bit where if she is gone then the clan would be in deep danger since they have no leader, no mage with such advanced healing capabilities that she had, and if the templars came you think they will take the "we have no keeper anymore" as an excuse?

[BlueMagitek]

Considering what you need to go through to get to the freaking Ashes would, I think, disqualify it from being harmless.

Yes, but you need anger to use Berserker. If you have nothing to really be angry about, what good will it do you?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Considering what you need to go through to get to the freaking Ashes would, I think, disqualify it from being harmless.

Yes, but you need anger to use Berserker. If you have nothing to really be angry about, what good will it do you?

Apparently there's Berserkers who can only get it to work after getting kicked in the nuts. 

[Cody]

That's the gauntlet. The urn itself is a harmless artifact.

[TheJediSaint]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Considering what you need to go through to get to the freaking Ashes would, I think, disqualify it from being harmless.

Yes, but you need anger to use Berserker. If you have nothing to really be angry about, what good will it do you?

Apparently there's Berserkers who can only get it to work after getting kicked in the nuts. 

I prefer deeply seeded emotional trauma myself. 

[TEWR]

He know's that it killed someone and that it scares the living crap out of the Keeper, who does know a thing or two about elven culture, Eluvians, and whatnot.

Marethari knows nothing about the Eluvians, as she says in DAO and reiterates in DAII -- where she says she wants nothing to do with them and doesn't want to study them.

[Auintus]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Yes, but you need anger to use Berserker. If you have nothing to really be angry about, what good will it do you?

But if you legitamately have nothing at all to be angry about, you are probably delusional. Or insane. Everybody gets mad sometimes. The point is to focus on that anger while in battle...Now I feel the need to make a berzerker.

[The Hierophant]

CodyMelch wrote...

How do you figure? It does not hve the taint, nothing seems to come out of the Eluvian unless it is tainted, as evident by Witch hunt. So your saying it is for the good of kirkwall because....? Oh right no reason at all.

Only one is somewhat danger is Merril, who had no intention of rteleasing a demon and if did would be put down or talked down from doing so by Hawke and co. So no it is not for the good of Merril or Kirkwall because it does not effect Kirkwall and really does not do a damn good for Merril either since she forgets about it at the end either way. Except on friendship romance she lets it go on her own initiative while on rivalry she is following orders and being an obedient women that follows her mans command.

The mirror could lead to anywhere as it's not mentioned that all Eluvians lead to a single point. For all anyone knows the Eluvian could have teleported Merrill up the backside of a broodmother, opening Kirkwall up to a darkspawn invasion

CodyMelch wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@The Hierophant: Stop oppressing Merrill with your morals and your intellect.

Merrill's a blood mage - she's lacking in either of those things.

You forgot common sense too.

I find this hilarious. Obviously untrue but I suppose it's not that it is funny but the source it is coming from makes it funny.

You forget that she takes Wryme's vague proposition at face value with no hesitation on her part. So much for her using common sense.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 26 octobre 2012 - 10:19 .

[BlueMagitek]

Auintus wrote...

But if you legitamately have nothing at all to be angry about, you are probably delusional. Or insane. Everybody gets mad sometimes. The point is to focus on that anger while in battle...Now I feel the need to make a berzerker.

Good, let the hate flow through you!

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Apparently there's Berserkers who can only get it to work after getting kicked in the nuts. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]

That would certainly give me a legit reason to start knocking heads... after I sat down. x.x

CodyMelch wrote...

That's the gauntlet. The urn itself is a harmless artifact.

Until the two are seperated I don't believe we can count it as harmless.

[TheJediSaint]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

He know's that it killed someone and that it scares the living crap out of the Keeper, who does know a thing or two about elven culture, Eluvians, and whatnot.

Marethari knows nothing about the Eluvians, as she says in DAO and reiterates in DAII -- where she says she wants nothing to do with them and doesn't want to study them.

Like I stated before, it killed members of her clan.  The Dailish, as any keeper worth their salt would know, don't have the numbers to risk faffing about with dangerous magical artifacts.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

TheJediSaint wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

He know's that it killed someone and that it scares the living crap out of the Keeper, who does know a thing or two about elven culture, Eluvians, and whatnot.

Marethari knows nothing about the Eluvians, as she says in DAO and reiterates in DAII -- where she says she wants nothing to do with them and doesn't want to study them.

Like I stated before, it killed members of her clan.  The Dailish, as any keeper worth their salt would know, don't have the numbers to risk faffing about with dangerous magical artifacts.

Like Etheral Writer stated before, that was the taint. Which Merrill removed. The fact that at least one clan member died because of that mirror is no longer relevant to whether or not it is still dangerous.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 26 octobre 2012 - 10:40 .

[TheJediSaint]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...


Like Etheral Writer stated before, that was the taint. Which Merrill removed. The fact that at least one clan member died because of that mirror is no longer relevant to whether or not it is still dangerous.

And as I've stated before, an ancient matical portal that can lead to litterally anywhere does not need the taint to be dangerous.  Especially one that's millenia old and put together by someone who does not fully understand it.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

TheJediSaint wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...


Like Etheral Writer stated before, that was the taint. Which Merrill removed. The fact that at least one clan member died because of that mirror is no longer relevant to whether or not it is still dangerous.

And as I've stated before, an ancient matical portal that can lead to litterally anywhere does not need the taint to be dangerous.  Especially one that's millenia old and put together by someone who does not fully understand it.

Okay, but the deaths to the taint are still irrelevant to whether or not Hawke should intervene.

Besides, she seems to have some idea how to determine how it works just by investigating magically.