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[LobselVith8]

Auintus wrote...

And if they aren't ready to swim, but could be with further training, they die? That doesn't seem right.

Not everyone agrees on the Harrowing; there have been discussions and disputes over whether it's necessary or effective. It's no different than the debates on the Chantry controlled Circles (including Ferelden), the schism between mages and templars, and how mages should be treated.

[Auintus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Not everyone agrees on the Harrowing; there have been discussions and disputes over whether it's necessary or effective. It's no different than the debates on the Chantry controlled Circles (including Ferelden), the schism between mages and templars, and how mages should be treated.

I thought the whole point of this thread was to debate that stuff. Most of those topics have been discussed. I'm just putting out my opinion on this topic. That's what most everyone has been doing here, unless I've horribly, horribly misunderstood things.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Rojahar wrote...

I want to be possessed by a demon. Passing my Harrowing in DAO was so mundane. I want to, as the player, experience the dangers of blood magic, instead of hearing about it but it being a joke to me because I have plot armor - like how Hawke couldn't catch Blight sickness. It would have been great if you as the player became as wary of Darkspawn as people in-game are supposed to be over the possibility of getting sick.

There were D&D game mechanics that turned a PC into a monster under DM control, but those were abandoned because they weren't fun. So that's why I wouldn't want the PC to have to be evil if they're a demoniac. But nor would I want the PC to be capable of being a good demoniac, because that would completely break game immersion. There is clearly only one alternative: no demoniac PCs.

[Vandicus]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Rojahar wrote...

I want to be possessed by a demon. Passing my Harrowing in DAO was so mundane. I want to, as the player, experience the dangers of blood magic, instead of hearing about it but it being a joke to me because I have plot armor - like how Hawke couldn't catch Blight sickness. It would have been great if you as the player became as wary of Darkspawn as people in-game are supposed to be over the possibility of getting sick.

There were D&D game mechanics that turned a PC into a monster under DM control, but those were abandoned because they weren't fun. So that's why I wouldn't want the PC to have to be evil if they're a demoniac. But nor would I want the PC to be capable of being a good demoniac, because that would completely break game immersion. There is clearly only one alternative: no demoniac PCs.

The other alternative is a game over screen. Bioware's done it before(Morinth romance in ME2 causes game over). Not sure what the point of it was, maybe it increases people's immersion?

[LobselVith8]

Auintus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Not everyone agrees on the Harrowing; there have been discussions and disputes over whether it's necessary or effective. It's no different than the debates on the Chantry controlled Circles (including Ferelden), the schism between mages and templars, and how mages should be treated.

I thought the whole point of this thread was to debate that stuff. Most of those topics have been discussed. I'm just putting out my opinion on this topic. That's what most everyone has been doing here, unless I've horribly, horribly misunderstood things.

I simply meant that the merits of the Harrowing are debated; nothing more.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Filament wrote...

I've suggested that they should implement content for mages where you're harried by a persistent demon that wants control of your body. The whole thing could be quite intricate and involve you building a fortress in your own fade realm to keep out unwanted visitors.

Then they would have to give the two other base classes, rogue and warrior, and equal amount of class-unique content, or else BW wouldn't hear the end of it.

[Auintus]

Filament wrote...

I've suggested that they should implement content for mages where you're harried by a persistent demon that wants control of your body. The whole thing could be quite intricate and involve you building a fortress in your own fade realm to keep out unwanted visitors.

That could be interesting. Each spec gets a short questline and a blood mage's includes fending off demonic influences.

[Solmanian]

Your using health points as mana... Isn't that a consequense? You can just say "yeah, but it's not like I was using it"... Every spell you cast brings you closer to death.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Auintus wrote...

And if they aren't ready to swim, but could be with further training, they die? That doesn't seem right.

Not everyone agrees on the Harrowing; there have been discussions and disputes over whether it's necessary or effective. It's no different than the debates on the Chantry controlled Circles (including Ferelden), the schism between mages and templars, and how mages should be treated.

There are still people who don't agree that Earth is round. Agreement of everyone is irrelevant.

The Harrowing is a good system, because it not only tests the mages skills as a mage, but it also tests his character. That is not something that can be learned.

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Auintus wrote...

And if they aren't ready to swim, but could be with further training, they die? That doesn't seem right.

Not everyone agrees on the Harrowing; there have been discussions and disputes over whether it's necessary or effective. It's no different than the debates on the Chantry controlled Circles (including Ferelden), the schism between mages and templars, and how mages should be treated.

There are still people who don't agree that Earth is round. Agreement of everyone is irrelevant.

The Harrowing is a good system, because it not only tests the mages skills as a mage, but it also tests his character. That is not something that can be learned.

Is it? To me the harrowing is not reliable at all if it can be influenced from outside sources.  and considering that kirkwall has 2 times more harrowing failures because its sitting on top of hellmount i consider the harrowing not reliable. Also since demons are varied it could mean that weak willed mages simply survive the harrowing because they encounterd a weak demon while strong willed mages die because they had the misfortune to encounter one of the forbidden ones.

Harrowing should be standarised before it should be even allowed to continue.

[Auintus]

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

There are still people who don't agree that Earth is round. Agreement of everyone is irrelevant.

The Harrowing is a good system, because it not only tests the mages skills as a mage, but it also tests his character. That is not something that can be learned.

Is it? To me the harrowing is not reliable at all if it can be influenced from outside sources.  and considering that kirkwall has 2 times more harrowing failures because its sitting on top of hellmount i consider the harrowing not reliable. Also since demons are varied it could mean that weak willed mages simply survive the harrowing because they encounterd a weak demon while strong willed mages die because they had the misfortune to encounter one of the forbidden ones.

Harrowing should be standarised before it should be even allowed to continue.

I will agree with Soronnar here that the Harrowing serves as a test of character in addition to a test of skill. However, DKJaigen makes a good point: The test is simply baiting a demon. If a weaker one snatches the bait, then the test will be much easier.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

DKJaigen wrote...


Harrowing should be standarised before it should be even allowed to continue.

How do we know it isn't standardised? The Mage Origin in DA:O pits you against a weak demon that attempts to take you over by force, and a strong demon that attempts to schmooze you. This is a nice cross-section of what a mage will face, maybe the templars did that on purpose?

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Not everyone agrees on the Harrowing; there have been discussions and disputes over whether it's necessary or effective. It's no different than the debates on the Chantry controlled Circles (including Ferelden), the schism between mages and templars, and how mages should be treated.

There are still people who don't agree that Earth is round. Agreement of everyone is irrelevant.

The Harrowing is a good system, because it not only tests the mages skills as a mage, but it also tests his character. That is not something that can be learned.

I'm pretty sure warning a mage that demons can be deceitful and cunning is something that can be learned. Since no apprentice knows anything about the Harrowing, you're pretty much throwing the person to the wolves, and hoping they figure it out on their own.

[Auintus]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...


Harrowing should be standarised before it should be even allowed to continue.

How do we know it isn't standardised? The Mage Origin in DA:O pits you against a weak demon that attempts to take you over by force, and a strong demon that attempts to schmooze you. This is a nice cross-section of what a mage will face, maybe the templars did that on purpose?

The Valor spirit's words indicate otherwise. Also, I highly doubt templars can influence the Fade to that degree.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Auintus wrote...


The Valor spirit's words indicate otherwise. Also, I highly doubt templars can influence the Fade to that degree.

Point taken.

[eye basher]

franciscoamell wrote...

"What's a little blood for a lot of power?"

Yeah i bet this is what the tevinter magisters tell themselves all the time but then again is not like they use their own blood.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Not everyone agrees on the Harrowing; there have been discussions and disputes over whether it's necessary or effective. It's no different than the debates on the Chantry controlled Circles (including Ferelden), the schism between mages and templars, and how mages should be treated.

There are still people who don't agree that Earth is round. Agreement of everyone is irrelevant.

The Harrowing is a good system, because it not only tests the mages skills as a mage, but it also tests his character. That is not something that can be learned.

I'm pretty sure warning a mage that demons can be deceitful and cunning is something that can be learned. Since no apprentice knows anything about the Harrowing, you're pretty much throwing the person to the wolves, and hoping they figure it out on their own.

The mages have just spent maker knows how many years studying at the Circle previous to their Harrowing. They know every bit just how cunning demons can be. They just havn't faced one yet. Mages aren't supposed to know about the Harrowing, because to know about it would ruin the point of it. So yes, they are throwing them to the wolves, but taht is the entire point.

[Xilizhra]

The mages have just spent maker knows how many years studying at the Circle previous to their Harrowing. They know every bit just how cunning demons can be. They just havn't faced one yet. Mages aren't supposed to know about the Harrowing, because to know about it would ruin the point of it. So yes, they are throwing them to the wolves, but taht is the entire point.

It's morally untenable, especially if no one's around to save them.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

The mages have just spent maker knows how many years studying at the Circle previous to their Harrowing. They know every bit just how cunning demons can be. They just havn't faced one yet. Mages aren't supposed to know about the Harrowing, because to know about it would ruin the point of it. So yes, they are throwing them to the wolves, but taht is the entire point.

It's morally untenable, especially if no one's around to save them.

The point is that if they need to be saved, it's better they get possessed with Templars intently watching their every move rather than among the general population with the Templars having to look five different directions at once.

I'm not arguing morality, I'm arguing pragmatism. It's not quite clear, when dealing with a danger like this, which one ought to win out, and that's largely the point of this setting.

[Xilizhra]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The mages have just spent maker knows how many years studying at the Circle previous to their Harrowing. They know every bit just how cunning demons can be. They just havn't faced one yet. Mages aren't supposed to know about the Harrowing, because to know about it would ruin the point of it. So yes, they are throwing them to the wolves, but taht is the entire point.

It's morally untenable, especially if no one's around to save them.

The point is that if they need to be saved, it's better they get possessed with Templars intently watching their every move rather than among the general population with the Templars having to look five different directions at once.

I'm not arguing morality, I'm arguing pragmatism. It's not quite clear, when dealing with a danger like this, which one ought to win out, and that's largely the point of this setting.

It's very clear if you're not a templar just looking to save their own skin. If they're bad at resisting possession at first, teach them. It worked for Hawke and Bethany.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Not everyone agrees on the Harrowing; there have been discussions and disputes over whether it's necessary or effective. It's no different than the debates on the Chantry controlled Circles (including Ferelden), the schism between mages and templars, and how mages should be treated.

There are still people who don't agree that Earth is round. Agreement of everyone is irrelevant.

The Harrowing is a good system, because it not only tests the mages skills as a mage, but it also tests his character. That is not something that can be learned.

I'm pretty sure warning a mage that demons can be deceitful and cunning is something that can be learned. Since no apprentice knows anything about the Harrowing, you're pretty much throwing the person to the wolves, and hoping they figure it out on their own.

The mages have just spent maker knows how many years studying at the Circle previous to their Harrowing. They know every bit just how cunning demons can be. They just havn't faced one yet. Mages aren't supposed to know about the Harrowing, because to know about it would ruin the point of it. So yes, they are throwing them to the wolves, but taht is the entire point.

My personal opinion on the Harrowing varies each time I think about it.

Personally, I'm against forcing people, no matter who they are, into situations where the entire outcome can be influenced by outside factors beyond the control of pupil or instructor. But at the same time, I can see where the Harrowing comes from, as a mage can only truly master their power if they truly know the dangers that come with it. And to truly know it, one has to experience it.

Knowing something at a rudimentary level means diddly squat when it comes to crunch time. When the time for action arrives, the time for preparation is over.

Many templars fall victim to demons when the demon enters the real world, and even get possessed themselves. When encountering a demon outside the Fade, a templar is in as much danger as a mage is.

The only real thing that separates mages from everyone else is the ability to enter the Fade while completely conscious. Every man, woman and child who isn't dwarven go to the Fade every night when they dream. Spirits and Demons are drawn to, and may even influence these dreams. But they are drawn to the mages who enter aware.

So in my mind, it is better to send a mage in, without letting them know that a senior mage is already present in case things get out of hand, and that senior mage will step in should things go amiss. The problem with that system is that it'll only work once. The mage apprentice, if they fail, will expect outside help the second time.

There are no easy solutions, and I find my support of the Harrowing rising some times and falling dramtically other times. I feel it isn't moral, but I also feel that mages truly do need to understand and be aware of the dangers that come with their power and gift. Ignoring the danger often leads people to blindly run towards it.