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[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

It's very clear if you're not a templar just looking to save their own skin. If they're bad at resisting possession at first, teach them. It worked for Hawke and Bethany.

The templars are not the only ones in danger of an attack by an abomination: what about the mages? You seem to forget that the templars are also partially meant as bodyguards for the mages. I'm also under the impression that the mages do their best to teach apprentice mages how to resist possession: the point of the Harrowing is to see if it stuck.

[Xilizhra]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It's very clear if you're not a templar just looking to save their own skin. If they're bad at resisting possession at first, teach them. It worked for Hawke and Bethany.

The templars are not the only ones in danger of an attack by an abomination: what about the mages? You seem to forget that the templars are also partially meant as bodyguards for the mages. I'm also under the impression that the mages do their best to teach apprentice mages how to resist possession: the point of the Harrowing is to see if it stuck.

There's no excuse for a graduation test with such a high fatality rate. If it doesn't stick, make sure it sticks for the next time.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...


There's no excuse for a graduation test with such a high fatality rate. If it doesn't stick, make sure it sticks for the next time.

But how do you test something like this without putting the student in massive danger?

And if one messes up, how do you save them? Keep in mind that killing the demon in the Fade apparently doesn't work with forcible possessions.

[Xilizhra]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


There's no excuse for a graduation test with such a high fatality rate. If it doesn't stick, make sure it sticks for the next time.

But how do you test something like this without putting the student in massive danger?

And if one messes up, how do you save them? Keep in mind that killing the demon in the Fade apparently doesn't work with forcible possessions.

Have a more experienced mage be tailing them and attack the demon before it can get anywhere.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

Have a more experienced mage be tailing them and attack the demon before it can get anywhere.

Okay, maybe. Now what happens if they fail?

[Xilizhra]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Have a more experienced mage be tailing them and attack the demon before it can get anywhere.

Okay, maybe. Now what happens if they fail?

The exact same thing that would happen if the apprentice had been alone, except that they actually tried to stop it.

In fact, have two or three experienced mages be there.

[Shadow Fox]

Xilizhra wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


There's no excuse for a graduation test with such a high fatality rate. If it doesn't stick, make sure it sticks for the next time.

But how do you test something like this without putting the student in massive danger?

And if one messes up, how do you save them? Keep in mind that killing the demon in the Fade apparently doesn't work with forcible possessions.

Have a more experienced mage be tailing them and attack the demon before it can get anywhere.

Having another mage hold the apprentice's hand kinda defeats the purpose of the test.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Have a more experienced mage be tailing them and attack the demon before it can get anywhere.

Okay, maybe. Now what happens if they fail?

The exact same thing that would happen if the apprentice had been alone, except that they actually tried to stop it.

In fact, have two or three experienced mages be there.

No, I meant the apprentice. What do you do with an apprentice who is known to be prone to forcible possession?


For that matter, what do you do with an apprentice who is known to be dumb enough to get the other kind?

[Xilizhra]

Having another mage hold the apprentice's hand kinda defeats the purpose of the test.

It's not handholding, they only step in when it's that or die.

No, I meant the apprentice. What do you do with an apprentice who is known to be prone to forcible possession?


For that matter, what do you do with an apprentice who is known to be dumb enough to get the other kind?

Bolster their will psychologically, and... I'm not really sure. It seems to be quite rare, the second one.

[Shadow Fox]

Xilizhra wrote...

Having another mage hold the apprentice's hand kinda defeats the purpose of the test.

It's not handholding, they only step in when it's that or die.

No, I meant the apprentice. What do you do with an apprentice who is known to be prone to forcible possession?


For that matter, what do you do with an apprentice who is known to be dumb enough to get the other kind?

Bolster their will psychologically, and... I'm not really sure. It seems to be quite rare, the second one.

And what happens when that apprentice is alone with no one to step in and drive the demon off?

[Xilizhra]

And what happens when that apprentice is alone with no one to step in and drive the demon off?

The test keep going until the apprentice can win without outside assistance.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

No, I meant the apprentice. What do you do with an apprentice who is known to be prone to forcible possession?

For that matter, what do you do with an apprentice who is known to be dumb enough to get the other kind?

Bolster their will psychologically, and... I'm not really sure. It seems to be quite rare, the second one.

There's a Codex entry called "Journal Of The Tranquil" that details the life of an apprentice who the enchanters couldn't manage that with, probably largely because of his grandmother telling him ghost stories about magic. What do you suggest should be done with him?

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 30 octobre 2012 - 02:05 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

And what happens when that apprentice is alone with no one to step in and drive the demon off?

The test keep going until the apprentice can win without outside assistance.

What he means, I think, is what happens when a demon shows up in that forcible possession prone apprentices nightmares?

Edit: Sorry about that.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 30 octobre 2012 - 02:10 .

[Shadow Fox]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And what happens when that apprentice is alone with no one to step in and drive the demon off?

The test keep going until the apprentice can win without outside assistance.

What he means, I think, is what happens when a demon shows up in that forcible possession prone apprentices nightmares?

Fixed and yes or dreams.

[Xilizhra]

There's a Codex entry called "Journal Of The Tranquil" that details the life of an apprentice who the enchanters couldn't manage that with, probably largely because of his grandmother telling him ghost stories about magic. What do you suggest should be done with him?

I might allow for voluntary Tranquility, though I'm very leery about it.

What he means, I think, is what happens when a demon shows up in that forcible possession prone apprentices nightmares?

They weren't more prone to forcible possession before the test; the test is just to see what their capability is. Though it's possible that they should be watched more closely until they pass.

[Dave of Canada]

So the mage is about to fail the harrowing, the elder mage intervenes and saves him.

Grats? You've got a mage who isn't going to pass his harrowing ever because he knows now that he's being handheld and he's a threat to everyone around him due to his failure.

[Xilizhra]

Dave of Canada wrote...

So the mage is about to fail the harrowing, the elder mage intervenes and saves him.

Grats? You've got a mage who isn't going to pass his harrowing ever because he knows now that he's being handheld and he's a threat to everyone around him due to his failure.

The mage will pass once they complete the Harrowing without aid.

[Shadow Fox]

Xilizhra wrote...

There's a Codex entry called "Journal Of The Tranquil" that details the life of an apprentice who the enchanters couldn't manage that with, probably largely because of his grandmother telling him ghost stories about magic. What do you suggest should be done with him?

I might allow for voluntary Tranquility, though I'm very leery about it.

What he means, I think, is what happens when a demon shows up in that forcible possession prone apprentices nightmares?

They weren't more prone to forcible possession before the test; the test is just to see what their capability is. Though it's possible that they should be watched more closely until they pass.

Actually if they're weak willed,extremely cocky and reckless or easily fooled/tempted/manipulated I'd say they are at higher risk.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

There's a Codex entry called "Journal Of The Tranquil" that details the life of an apprentice who the enchanters couldn't manage that with, probably largely because of his grandmother telling him ghost stories about magic. What do you suggest should be done with him?

I might allow for voluntary Tranquility, though I'm very leery about it.

It's supposed to be voluntary, unless its being done on suspicion of Blood Magic.

What he means, I think, is what happens when a demon shows up in that forcible possession prone apprentices nightmares?

They weren't more prone to forcible possession before the test; the test is just to see what their capability is. Though it's possible that they should be watched more closely until they pass.

I think Dave has this about covered: this sort of thing would be crippling psychologically. Though even if he was wrong, their current abilities are already a cause for concern. Even one abomination is powerful enough to wipe out several squads of templars.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 30 octobre 2012 - 02:25 .

[Shadow Fox]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

So the mage is about to fail the harrowing, the elder mage intervenes and saves him.

Grats? You've got a mage who isn't going to pass his harrowing ever because he knows now that he's being handheld and he's a threat to everyone around him due to his failure.

The mage will pass once they complete the Harrowing without aid.

But after the first failure they'll know there's someone to catch them if they fall as it where or they'll assume they're somehow immune to demons and thus grow cocky.

[Xilizhra]

It's supposed to be voluntary, unless its being done on suspicion of Blood Magic.

"Supposed."

I think Dave has this about covered: this sort of thing would be crippling psychologically. Though even if he was wrong, their current abilities are already a cause for concern. Even one abomination is powerful enough to wipe out several squads of templars.

In extremely rare circumstances. Most aren't nearly so powerful.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

It's supposed to be voluntary, unless its being done on suspicion of Blood Magic.

"Supposed."

I think Dave has this about covered: this sort of thing would be crippling psychologically. Though even if he was wrong, their current abilities are already a cause for concern. Even one abomination is powerful enough to wipe out several squads of templars.

In extremely rare circumstances. Most aren't nearly so powerful.

Okay, I looked at the Codex I was paraphrasing. It says nothing about whether or not a typical abomination is more like the mindless brutes that don't even merit having their names in yellow, or more like Uldred or Connor. All it says is that abominations are responsible for some of the worst cataclysms in history, one will attempt to create more, and entire squads have been known to fall to one. It doesn't say which of us is closer to correct about how strong they are on average, though since my point was that even one abomination is potentially incredibly dangerous, I think it backs up my point pretty well.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 30 octobre 2012 - 02:36 .

[Xilizhra]

Okay, I looked at the Codex I was paraphrasing. It says nothing about whether or not a typical abomination is more like the mindless brutes that don't even merit having their names in yellow, or more like Uldred or Connor. All it says is that they're responsible for some of the worst cataclysms in history, one will attempt to create more, and entire squads have been known to fall to them. It doesn't say which of us is closer to correct about how strong they are on average, though since my point was that even one abomination is potentially incredibly dangerous, I think it backs up my point pretty well.

The codex doesn't have to tell you, you can see it with your own eyes. Powerful abominations are quite rare. And even Connor wasn't all that powerful in person, he could just conjure a lot of skeletons. One abomination is potentially incredibly dangerous, but only in the same way that a nuclear reactor could explode at any time: it seems intuitively likely and is technically possible, but actual disasters are very rare.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

Okay, I looked at the Codex I was paraphrasing. It says nothing about whether or not a typical abomination is more like the mindless brutes that don't even merit having their names in yellow, or more like Uldred or Connor. All it says is that they're responsible for some of the worst cataclysms in history, one will attempt to create more, and entire squads have been known to fall to them. It doesn't say which of us is closer to correct about how strong they are on average, though since my point was that even one abomination is potentially incredibly dangerous, I think it backs up my point pretty well.

The codex doesn't have to tell you, you can see it with your own eyes.

Actually, you can't. The fluff makes clear that abominations are, on average, much more powerful than the ones the Wardens face. My speculation was on how much more on average.

Powerful abominations are quite rare. And even Connor wasn't all that powerful in person, he could just conjure a lot of skeletons.

Because he created more possessed creatures. That is one of the dangers I mentioned. Besides, Connor was still ridiculously broken compared to, say Ser Perth. The Redcliffe thing would have ended even worse if the Warden wasn't there.

One abomination is potentially incredibly dangerous, but only in the same way that a nuclear reactor could explode at any time: it seems intuitively likely and is technically possible, but actual disasters are very rare.

Nuclear explosions are rare because we know how to prevent them. Abominations are the same way.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 30 octobre 2012 - 02:43 .

[Xilizhra]

Actually, you can't. The fluff makes clear that abominations are, on average, much more powerful than the ones the Wardens face. My speculation was on how much more on average.

The fluff says no such thing about "average" abominations, just saying that there are some powerful ones.

Because he created more possessed creatures. That is one of the dangers I mentioned. Besides, Connor was still ridiculously broken compared to, say Ser Perth. The Redcliffe thing would have ended even worse if the Warden wasn't there.

Yes, and it wouldn't have happened if the Circle wasn't so bad that Isolde felt the need to keep Connor out of it.

Nuclear explosions are rare because we know how to prevent them. Abominations are the same way.

And because most demons are weak.