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[goofyomnivore]

DA3 will give us a chance to achieve a clear moral good that can only be achieved with blood magic.

What I hope as well.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Vandicus wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It was also a case of dumb luck. It was lucky that Gascard had made a phylactery to track Alessa. ANd I don't think anyone wants the various states of Thedas to hold vast stockpiles of Phylacteries for every living citizen of Thedas.

It could work. Since it doesn't need to be an emergency phylactery tracking the templar method could be used instead(so no risk of a mage going power crazy). 

It would mirror very much the idea of states in our world having DNA charts of all the citizens living within their borders. While the benefits of it is clear and undeniable, there are also severe drawbacks to your privacy.

[Arokel]

strive wrote...

DA3 will give us a chance to achieve a clear moral good that can only be achieved with blood magic.

What I hope as well.

I would like to see this as well.  Do questionable (at best) means justify the end?

[Xilizhra]

Actually, it wasn't dumb luck that Gascard had a phylactery for Alessa; he made one earlier in the questline specifically to track her if she was taken by Quentin. All he was was prepared.

[EmperorSahlertz]

And that isn't lucky for Hawke that someone else had planned for a way to track down Quintin? I'd say that qualifies as luck.

[Estelindis]

Xilizhra wrote...

Is blood magic really "absolute" power over others? We've only seen blood magic's mind control side used once, by Idunna, and that didn't even work. A mage can break it with relatively little effort, another mage can easily dispel it, and even without magic, it's possible for someone of sufficient will to break free.

Personally, I got the strong impression that we were only able to break out of Idunna's control because we have the all-trumping magical power of being the player character and people would have cried foul at being forced to do anything against our will (ignoring character railroading of other types, of course).

[Shadow Fox]

Estelindis wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Is blood magic really "absolute" power over others? We've only seen blood magic's mind control side used once, by Idunna, and that didn't even work. A mage can break it with relatively little effort, another mage can easily dispel it, and even without magic, it's possible for someone of sufficient will to break free.

Personally, I got the strong impression that we were only able to break out of Idunna's control because we have the all-trumping magical power of being the player character and people would have cried foul at being forced to do anything against our will (ignoring character railroading of other types, of course).

Like the Warden.

[Dave of Canada]

The only way to break free from Idunna's spell is being a mage or having a mage companion, otherwise your choices are limited to impulse (which is due to being a player character). She's being doing it for a while (to Templar, the anti-mages), so it stands to reason that blood magic's mind control properties are quite strong.

Considering how your companions react to Idunna's spell, it also doesn't help that they retain their personalities and can be manipulated as if nothing is wrong.

[Dhiro]

Dave of Canada wrote...

The only way to break free from Idunna's spell is being a mage or having a mage companion, otherwise your choices are limited to impulse (which is due to being a player character). She's being doing it for a while (to Templar, the anti-mages), so it stands to reason that blood magic's mind control properties are quite strong.

Considering how your companions react to Idunna's spell, it also doesn't help that they retain their personalities and can be manipulated as if nothing is wrong.

To be fair, the Templars she's enchanted were only recruits and not actual Knights, weren't they? The element of surprise was probably her biggest advantage.

But you make a good point about her manipulations being subtle enough that the companions stay in-character instead of becoming mindless drones.

[Dave of Canada]

They've only recently started working at the Circle, yes. However, I'd say they've received more training than Alistair did and he still has signs of Templar training which peek out from time to time.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 02 octobre 2012 - 12:57 .

[Vandicus]

Dhiro wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

The only way to break free from Idunna's spell is being a mage or having a mage companion, otherwise your choices are limited to impulse (which is due to being a player character). She's being doing it for a while (to Templar, the anti-mages), so it stands to reason that blood magic's mind control properties are quite strong.

Considering how your companions react to Idunna's spell, it also doesn't help that they retain their personalities and can be manipulated as if nothing is wrong.

To be fair, the Templars she's enchanted were only recruits and not actual Knights, weren't they? The element of surprise was probably her biggest advantage.

But you make a good point about her manipulations being subtle enough that the companions stay in-character instead of becoming mindless drones.

Surpise and fear. Fear and surprise.  Her two greatest weapons were fear and surprise. Her two weapons were fear and surprise... and ruthless efficiency....

[Dhiro]

Dave of Canada wrote...

They've only recently started working at the Circle, yes. However, I'd say they've received more training than Alistair did and he still has signs of Templar training which peek out from time to time.

That's probably true, though I don't think they were expecting to meet a blood mage in the brothel.

About how easy it was for Hawke and the party members to break the spell: all mages in our party are exceptional ones. Merrill was being trained to be a Keeper and is a blood mage herself, Anders is a powerful spellcaster and is linked to Justice, Bethany is also shown to have a great deal of willpower. Hawke is... well, the PC.

[coldSnap]

I have a question. How exactly does one manipulate the mind through blood? I mean honestly. The brain works by firing electrical signals (or something to that effect). It seems to me blood magic should only be able to control the physical body and not the mind, like bloodbending does in The Last Airbender.

Edit: So i looked up some stuff, though i kinda knew this beforehand. Blood is mainly there to keep the mind functioning by supplying the brain with oxygen and nutrients.

If blood magic did anything to the brain, it would be stroke-esque (which is basically the skill hemmorage, except that effects all the blood vessels in the body) . The blood mage could severe the brain's blood supply and cause the stroke. But yeah, the question i proposed before still stands. How?

Modifié par KaidanLover, 02 octobre 2012 - 05:53 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

KaidanLover wrote...

I have a question. How exactly does one manipulate the mind through blood? I mean honestly. The brain works by firing electrical signals (or something to that effect). It seems to me blood magic should only be able to control the physical body and not the mind, like bloodbending does in The Last Airbender.

Edit: So i looked up some stuff, though i kinda knew this beforehand. Blood is mainly there to keep the mind functioning by supplying the brain with oxygen and nutrients.

If blood magic did anything to the brain, it would be stroke-esque (which is basically the skill hemmorage, except that effects all the blood vessels in the body) . The blood mage could severe the brain's blood supply and cause the stroke. But yeah, the question i proposed before still stands. How?

Why are you trying to apply science to magic?...

[Lotion Soronarr]

Estelindis wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Is blood magic really "absolute" power over others? We've only seen blood magic's mind control side used once, by Idunna, and that didn't even work. A mage can break it with relatively little effort, another mage can easily dispel it, and even without magic, it's possible for someone of sufficient will to break free.

Personally, I got the strong impression that we were only able to break out of Idunna's control because we have the all-trumping magical power of being the player character and people would have cried foul at being forced to do anything against our will (ignoring character railroading of other types, of course).

Indeed. Can you imagine the outcry is Hawk slit his own throat and it was "game over"?
And you had to have a templar in he party to stop Idunna?
The PC is never indicative of anything when it comes to games.

And on that note, someone said that you cannot imprison/kill people based on the danger they might pose.
Actually you can.
I can guarantee you if Professor X was real, every government in the world would want him dead.

A "good" blood mage won't remain good forever. Nothing is eternal or endless, so neither is discipline or willpower. Since the temptation and opportunity to abuse blood amgic is everywhere, can anyone really say for sure they'll allways have 100% willpower 24/7?
How about after partying with friends and drinking booze? After having a family member die? After getting dumped? Bad weather and low blood pressure?
The human mind and his mood are very much subject to fluctuations.
There is no such thing as incorruptable pure pureness in this world.
Little by little, even mountains are eroded by wind and water.

[Cultist]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Fighting off small groups of darkspawn that come to the surface is fighting the symptoms, not the cause.
Unless you blood magic has a method to kill ALL darkspawn, they will continue to plauge thedas forever

So if magic can't kill all darkspawn at once it is useless? If gunpowder can't kill all darkspwan at once it is useless?.

HM..I thought I put you on my ignore list.. Why are your posts still showing up?

Must be Blood Magic

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
No..... It is like saying, the Roman
Empire didn't fall until many hundreds of years after the fall of
Rome(city). Which is correct. Cultist said the Tevitner Imperium fell, I
merely pointed out that it never fell, despite its setbacks.

I meant It's not like Tevinter broken down as a state but into a decline.

Dhiro wrote...
To be fair, the Templars she's enchanted were
only recruits and not actual Knights, weren't they? The element of
surprise was probably her biggest advantage.
But you make a good
point about her manipulations being subtle enough that the companions
stay in-character instead of becoming mindless drones.

Not only they were recruits - she also was a novice in Blood Magic.

But about mind control I have a good example of other game implementing it successfully - Vampire: the Masquerade. When you play as Malkavian clan you are, technically, mad. And have ability to "leak" your madness and influence other people, forcing them to do various things, like attacking each other, commiting suicide and believing that you are a turtle they flushed into a toilet in their childhood. Blood magic could act the same way, giving us dialogue options akin to Malkavian "madspeech"

[SgtElias]

Cultist wrote...

But about mind control I have a good example of other game implementing it successfully - Vampire: the Masquerade. When you play as Malkavian clan you are, technically, mad. And have ability to "leak" your madness and influence other people, forcing them to do various things, like attacking each other, commiting suicide and believing that you are a turtle they flushed into a toilet in their childhood. Blood magic could act the same way, giving us dialogue options akin to Malkavian "madspeech"

Oh, I loved that game. And I don't think I ever played as anything other than Malkavian. The temptation to play a character who was insane was too irresistible every time.

And I certainly think that should someone decide to make a blood mage, something in the game should reflect it, if at all possible.

[Sable Rhapsody]

strive wrote...

DA3 will give us a chance to achieve a clear moral good that can only be achieved with blood magic.

What I hope as well.

Mmm, we'll see.  I think it's been made pretty clear in DA's lore that blood magic is dangerous enough where only an extraordinary individual in an extraordinary circumstance can come close to justifying its use.  Even Anders, in the midst of all his crazytude, doesn't resort to blood magic, and he was aiming pretty high with his goals.

There's a difference between an understandable use of blood magic and an acceptable one.  I get why terrified mages in Kirkwall chafing under Meredith's insanity in Act 3 turn to blood magic.  But that doesn't make it ok, not by a long shot.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 02 octobre 2012 - 08:51 .

[TEWR]

There was cleansing the Eluvian shard.

And healing withered crops. And healing peoples' wounds. Arguably the phylacteries. Definitely the Warden Joining and the Reaver Joining, if the Reaver that comes as a result isn't a psycho-crazed jackass like Kolgrim.

Also the binding of the seals that held Corypheus in place. And the fact that the Wardens will use blood magic against the Darkspawn -- and since Darkspawn blood can be used to power spells, innocent lives wouldn't have to be sacrificed.

My source for a few of these things

[Sable Rhapsody]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
And healing withered crops. And healing peoples' wounds. Arguably the phylacteries. Definitely the Warden Joining and the Reaver Joining, if the Reaver that comes as a result isn't a psycho-crazed jackass like Kolgrim.

The Joining, the Architect's use of Grey Warden blood, and the bindings on Corypheus are IMO a few examples of justifiable use of blood magic.  Without Wardens, everyone dies to the Blight.  That's pretty reasonable given the stakes.  Same with the Architect, though opinions vary based on what you think of the awakened darkspawn.

Corypheus is a little different.  That one requires a mage, and any mage using blood magic opens him/herself up to the threat of possession, possibly creating an abomination worse than the one being contained.  Lore is inconsistent on whether you need to strike a deal with a demon or not to gain access to blood magic.  The Warden had to, but Hawke didn't, and Anders, Merrill, and Fenris' dialogue on the topic doesn't provide a clear answer.

[TEWR]

I've long maintained that Demons are the quickest way to learn blood magic -- due to the Chantry banning such practices and more then likely burning tomes on the subject -- but Demons are not the only way to learn it.

[Sable Rhapsody]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I've long maintained that Demons are the quickest way to learn blood magic -- due to the Chantry banning such practices and more then likely burning tomes on the subject -- but Demons are not the only way to learn it.

Anders asks Merrill if she learned Blood Magic just by cutting herself and finding an extra source of power. But I think Fenris says each and every blood mage has to cut a demon's deal.  

I played a blood mage in DA2 and headcanoned that she'd learned blood magic without a demon's assistance, slowly and over years of practice and hard work.  I think your theory makes a lot of sense, but we just don't have consistent information from the games themselves.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Cultist wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Fighting off small groups of darkspawn that come to the surface is fighting the symptoms, not the cause.
Unless you blood magic has a method to kill ALL darkspawn, they will continue to plauge thedas forever

So if magic can't kill all darkspawn at once it is useless? If gunpowder can't kill all darkspwan at once it is useless?

Strawman. That's not what I'm saying and you know it very well.

It is you who claimed Blood Magic can fix everything.
And unfortunately for you, you cannot back that up. If you don't get rid of all the darkspawn, then you didn't fix the darkspawn problem, now did you?

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Definitely the Warden Joining and the Reaver Joining

Drinking blood mixed with a bit of lyrium isn't blood magic.

There's nothing magical about drinking blood/poison.

[Cultist]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Strawman. That's not what I'm saying and you know it very well.

It is you who claimed Blood Magic can fix everything.
And unfortunately for you, you cannot back that up. If you don't get rid of all the darkspawn, then you didn't fix the darkspawn problem, now did you?

You are obviously lying - I never said that Blood Magic can solve every problem.
I said It is powerful and helped in humanity's ascendance, but never said it was answer to every question and problem. So, please, stop putting words in my mouth.
Blood Magic is a tool. Same as gunpowder and magic. Both are extremely dangerous but without learning to handle them both will remain being dangerous. Without research there will be no way of contering or preventing mind control or demonic possession.
For now, it is a great tool in defeating the Chantry and Templars.