191 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

What is so Dark and Mature about the Dragon Age universe? And how exactly will that translate in Dragon Age 3?
(See Dragon Age 3 related, keep those lock happy fingers away from my thread Stan)

I mean I dont get what is considered so Dark and mature about the series, sure the world is bland and ugly but that doesnt make it dark, just bland and ugly. Looking at past examples Origins seems to be the standard good vs evil story, noble heroes fighting against impossible odds and winning, every choice you make has the "fairytale ending" option, nothing really dark about it. To be honest the phrase "Dark and Mature" gets thrown around so much these days I am not really sure what it means anymore, give me your definition of "Dark and Mature".

[marshalleck]

Nothing, really. The game is pretty Disneyfied.

[Pedrak]

I'd say that any game series dealing with racism, demonic possession, oppression, terrorism, rape, fanatism, etc. can be reasonably regarded as dark. It may not be Blood Meridian but it sure ain't Walt Disney either.


(edit:

marshalleck wrote...

Nothing, really. The game is pretty Disneyfied.

Heh, talk about different perspective... )


"Mature" concerns more the tone and execution than the topics, and I won't go there here.

Also, nothing forces you to choose the "fairytale" solution to quests. An evil playthrough of DAO is pretty much a bloodbath with some really nasty and cruel moments, if that's your cup of tea.

Modifié par Pedrak, 29 septembre 2012 - 10:08 .

[Eternal Phoenix]

Mature?

Able to handle all topics in a mature and adult way. No Dragon Age game fulfills this fully because even talking about sexuality is taboo in Dragon Age and romances are really childish by nature (no I'm not asking for full-frontal nudity in romance scenes - although I would have no problems with such - but the way romance plays out is common to PEGI 12 films...at least in DA2 anyways). Also sexism doesn't exist in Dragon Age (at least not to a great extent) and other taboo topics aren't even mentioned by name in some circumstances. The City Elf origin was pretty mature (it even allowed you to let your bride and cousin get raped in return for gold) and the way racism was handled between elves and humans was also another good feature but in other cases Dragon Age shies away from things because it's too scared to offend people despite claiming to be a game for adults.

Dark fantasy?

Horror elements, ominous environments, nightmarish creatures and atmosphere all contribute to this. Dragon Age: Origins had the deep roads, Circle Tower and other places which all had dark atmosphere which built up as you progressed. The Broodmother, The Darkspawn and The Mother all contributed to nightmarish creatures along with demons and certain horror elements could be found in quests such as Something Rotten.

Dragon Age: Origins felt mature and dark at times whereas Dragon Age 2 didn't. I would like the next game to be more influenced by what was going on in the medieval times where people were ruthless, where cut-throats stalked alleys, where men abused women (and this still happens today and I'm not asking for abuse to be forced onto a female protagonist as clearly she will be able to fight back but having a scene where you catch a husband beating his wife would be a nice touch to demonstrate the darkness of Thedas), where organisations are corrupt and where starting trouble with someone higher up could land you with a death sentence.

Dragon Age 3 is set during a time where Thedas is in chaos so show us some looters robbing a house with a woman and her baby in, show us villages that have been burned to the ground with the bodies of children, the young, men, soldiers, women and the old on the ground (because war isn't kind) and show evil people/organisations trying to exploit people during this time.

Pedrak wrote...

I'd say that any game series dealing with racism, demonic possession, oppression, terrorism, rape, fanatism, etc. can be reasonably regarded as dark. It may not be Blood Meridian but it sure ain't Walt Disney either.


(edit:

marshalleck wrote...

Nothing, really. The game is pretty Disneyfied.

Heh, talk about different perspective... )


"Mature" concerns more the tone and execution than the topics, and I won't go there here.

Also, nothing forces you to choose the "fairytale" solution to quests. An evil playthrough of DAO is pretty much a bloodbath with some really nasty and cruel moments, if that's your cup of tea.

Yeah Dragon Age: Origins felt rather dark and mature for most of the part. Artstyle, dialogue, atmosphere and the narrative contributed to this. Dragon Age 2 never felt dark and atmosphere was garbage. You descend into the deepest part of the Deep Roads and atmosphere is never built and evidence of the darkspawn's corruption and presence there is never shown as it is in Origins with all those spores and disgusting growths. However this could all be due to DA2's rushed development and with the right time maybe DA3 will resemble DA:O more in terms of mood and atmosphere.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 29 septembre 2012 - 10:21 .

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Stuff like being able to slaughter a mother to use her blood to fuel a ritual to go into the spirit world to kill a demon that's holding a child captive...or kill the child. Stuff like Elven, Drawven, and human females being raped by darkspawn, and this causing them to change into horrible abominations that birth thousands of darkspawn. Stuff like pouring liquid lyrium, which causes bleeping on contact, into a person through their armor to turn them into a stone giant. Stuff like humans raping a girl, so her father coming back later and turning the humans into were-wolves, and binding his life to their existence.

You want to call that not dark, please go ahead. But I'm afraid you're wrong.

Bleeping on contact? The choice between killing a mother to save her child or just killing the child could have been perhaps considered a little dark if there wasnt the 3rd option where everyone lives, also I dont remember anything about females being raped by Darkspawn. But for me to consider something dark there has to be some sort of believability to it which nothing in Dragon Age really had, a couple of references to rape dont really do it for me, Dragon Age seems more like psuedo-darkness with part of it trying to be sort of edgy while trying to keep it safe as to be accepted by a wider audience and avoid classification issues in certain countries. 

Modifié par Mr Mxyzptlk, 29 septembre 2012 - 10:22 .

[Gabey5]

Dragon age was never dark fantasy.

[Nerevar-as]

Mr Mxyzptlk wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Stuff like being able to slaughter a mother to use her blood to fuel a ritual to go into the spirit world to kill a demon that's holding a child captive...or kill the child. Stuff like Elven, Drawven, and human females being raped by darkspawn, and this causing them to change into horrible abominations that birth thousands of darkspawn. Stuff like pouring liquid lyrium, which causes bleeping on contact, into a person through their armor to turn them into a stone giant. Stuff like humans raping a girl, so her father coming back later and turning the humans into were-wolves, and binding his life to their existence.

You want to call that not dark, please go ahead. But I'm afraid you're wrong.

Bleeping on contact? The choice between killing a mother to save her child or just killing the child could have been perhaps considered a little dark if there wasnt the 3rd option where everyone lives, also I dont remember anything about females being raped by Darkspawn. But for me to consider something dark there has to be some sort of believability to it which nothing in Dragon Age really had, a couple of references to rape dont really do it for me, Dragon Age seems more like psuedo-darkness with part of it trying to be sort of edgy while trying to keep it safe as to be accepted by a wider audience and avoid classification issues in certain countries. 

There was a line in Hespith´s rhyme that said that, if violated can also mean raped.

But it´s true that while some themes are mature, they also go for the PG version of it. Love scenes are a particular offender because of how stupid they looked with that underwear. A fade to black would have been much better than that.

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Also elements such as Alistair and Anders trying way to hard to be cute and funny as well as crap like "lolol Sten lieks cookies" among otherthings make me think the game was writen explicitly for fangirls.

[Atakuma]

In this context it's just a marketing buzzword.

[Nerevar-as]

Mr Mxyzptlk wrote...

Also elements such as Alistair and Anders trying way to hard to be cute and funny as well as crap like "lolol Sten lieks cookies" among otherthings make me think the game was writen explicitly for fangirls.

Humor isn´t opposed to dark fantasy. For example, there´s plenty of it in The Witcher books, and not necessarily dark humor, and it doesn´t take from the darkness of the story. Or Osamu Tezuka´s works, full of jokes and 4th wall breaks and utterly depressing most of the time. It worked all right in Origins, but in DA2 it seemed they were trying too hard, especially with "funny" Hawke dialogue wheel.

[Pelle6666]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Stuff like being able to slaughter a mother to use her blood to fuel a ritual to go into the spirit world to kill a demon that's holding a child captive...or kill the child. Stuff like Elven, Drawven, and human females being raped by darkspawn, and this causing them to change into horrible abominations that birth thousands of darkspawn. Stuff like pouring liquid lyrium, which causes bleeping on contact, into a person through their armor to turn them into a stone giant. Stuff like humans raping a girl, so her father coming back later and turning the humans into were-wolves, and binding his life to their existence.

You want to call that not dark, please go ahead. But I'm afraid you're wrong.

Yep, DA:O was dark and gritty. That is why that was the best game in the series. DA2 didn't have all that, the closest they came was some demons abeapring now and then, the qunari beheading the viscount, a psychotic killer that murdered the protagonists mother and the meat reaper in the end that was borrowed from that Agarrock dlc. Even if these things might seem pretty dark the game it self had a much more relaxed approach towards moral choices and brutal decisions and most of these were possible to avoid.
Really hope that they go back to the mature theme of DA:O and simply take it to the next level. In Wicther II you get to decide if you want to commit to uniting the country by liberating the kings lost children or save your LI from certain death. That is the level of moral choices I would like to see in DA:I.
 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Mr Mxyzptlk wrote...

Also elements such as Alistair and Anders trying way to hard to be cute and funny as well as crap like "lolol Sten lieks cookies" among otherthings make me think the game was writen explicitly for fangirls.

Humor isn´t opposed to dark fantasy. For example, there´s plenty of it in The Witcher books, and not necessarily dark humor, and it doesn´t take from the darkness of the story. Or Osamu Tezuka´s works, full of jokes and 4th wall breaks and utterly depressing most of the time. It worked all right in Origins, but in DA2 it seemed they were trying too hard, especially with "funny" Hawke dialogue wheel.

I never said that however elements such as the ones I mention did feel like they were aimed at the type of people who constantly post those stupid lolcats pictures all over the place.

[Pedrak]

Pelle6666 wrote...


Really hope that they go back to the mature theme of DA:O and simply take it to the next level. In Wicther II you get to decide if you want to commit to uniting the country by liberating the kings lost children or save your LI from certain death. That is the level of moral choices I would like to see in DA:I.
 

Except that in TW2

MAJOR SPOILERS FOR THE WITCHER 2



if you choose to save your LI, the child still survives... and if you go to save the child, another character rescues your LI for you.



END SPOILERS

I liked TW2 too (albeit a lot less than the previous game), but seriously... it had its fair share of cop-outs.

Modifié par Pedrak, 29 septembre 2012 - 11:00 .

[Vandicus]

Pedrak wrote...

I'd say that any game series dealing with racism, demonic possession, oppression, terrorism, rape, fanatism, etc. can be reasonably regarded as dark. It may not be Blood Meridian but it sure ain't Walt Disney either.


(edit:

marshalleck wrote...

Nothing, really. The game is pretty Disneyfied.

Heh, talk about different perspective... )


"Mature" concerns more the tone and execution than the topics, and I won't go there here.

Also, nothing forces you to choose the "fairytale" solution to quests. An evil playthrough of DAO is pretty much a bloodbath with some really nasty and cruel moments, if that's your cup of tea.

In order to choose the non-"fairytale" option you basically need to be playing a villain. That's not the same thing as having a dark/mature feel, that's just being evil pancakes evil. Why am I being so evil? Because its FUN. 

The setting of Dragon Age is undoubtedly a dark one(the particular things that it includes you mentioned). Whether a game would be considered dark or not depends on whether these ever have to meaningfully impact the player. Unless the player chooses to be evil, in DA:O nothing bad ever happens to the protagonist if the protagonist so chooses to avoid them. In DA2 this wasn't the case, which I felt make it a lot darker.

[marshalleck]

Vandicus wrote...

Pedrak wrote...

I'd say that any game series dealing with racism, demonic possession, oppression, terrorism, rape, fanatism, etc. can be reasonably regarded as dark. It may not be Blood Meridian but it sure ain't Walt Disney either.


(edit:

marshalleck wrote...

Nothing, really. The game is pretty Disneyfied.

Heh, talk about different perspective... )


"Mature" concerns more the tone and execution than the topics, and I won't go there here.

Also, nothing forces you to choose the "fairytale" solution to quests. An evil playthrough of DAO is pretty much a bloodbath with some really nasty and cruel moments, if that's your cup of tea.

In order to choose the non-"fairytale" option you basically need to be playing a villain. That's not the same thing as having a dark/mature feel, that's just being evil pancakes evil. Why am I being so evil? Because its FUN. 

The setting of Dragon Age is undoubtedly a dark one(the particular things that it includes you mentioned). Whether a game would be considered dark or not depends on whether these ever have to meaningfully impact the player. Unless the player chooses to be evil, in DA:O nothing bad ever happens to the protagonist if the protagonist so chooses to avoid them. In DA2 this wasn't the case, which I felt make it a lot darker.

Too bad they so often had to take a simply dumb approach to it. For example: Frankenmom. 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Pedrak wrote...

Pelle6666 wrote...


Really hope that they go back to the mature theme of DA:O and simply take it to the next level. In Wicther II you get to decide if you want to commit to uniting the country by liberating the kings lost children or save your LI from certain death. That is the level of moral choices I would like to see in DA:I.
 

Except that in TW2

MAJOR SPOILERS FOR THE WITCHER 2



if you choose to save your LI, the child still survives... and if you go to save the child, another character rescues your LI for you.



END SPOILERS

I liked TW2 too (albeit a lot less than the previous game), but seriously... it had its fair share of cop-outs.

I think Triss has a heavy plating of plot armour which keeps her safe but I am not sure I would consider that particular instance a cop-out as it was handled in a somewhat believable way given the context of the game, just because Geralt chooses one over the other doesnt mean the other is doomed to failure, Roache is still a fairly capable guy and as for Triss I believe there is a reasonable explanation for that. Either way both choices do result in different outcomes.

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

marshalleck wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Pedrak wrote...

I'd say that any game series dealing with racism, demonic possession, oppression, terrorism, rape, fanatism, etc. can be reasonably regarded as dark. It may not be Blood Meridian but it sure ain't Walt Disney either.


(edit:

marshalleck wrote...

Nothing, really. The game is pretty Disneyfied.

Heh, talk about different perspective... )


"Mature" concerns more the tone and execution than the topics, and I won't go there here.

Also, nothing forces you to choose the "fairytale" solution to quests. An evil playthrough of DAO is pretty much a bloodbath with some really nasty and cruel moments, if that's your cup of tea.

In order to choose the non-"fairytale" option you basically need to be playing a villain. That's not the same thing as having a dark/mature feel, that's just being evil pancakes evil. Why am I being so evil? Because its FUN. 

The setting of Dragon Age is undoubtedly a dark one(the particular things that it includes you mentioned). Whether a game would be considered dark or not depends on whether these ever have to meaningfully impact the player. Unless the player chooses to be evil, in DA:O nothing bad ever happens to the protagonist if the protagonist so chooses to avoid them. In DA2 this wasn't the case, which I felt make it a lot darker.

Too bad they so often had to take a simply dumb approach to it. For example: Frankenmom. 

Yeah gotta admit Frankenmom was kind of funny.

[Eternal Phoenix]

Mr Mxyzptlk wrote...

Pedrak wrote...

Pelle6666 wrote...


Really hope that they go back to the mature theme of DA:O and simply take it to the next level. In Wicther II you get to decide if you want to commit to uniting the country by liberating the kings lost children or save your LI from certain death. That is the level of moral choices I would like to see in DA:I.
 

Except that in TW2

MAJOR SPOILERS FOR THE WITCHER 2



if you choose to save your LI, the child still survives... and if you go to save the child, another character rescues your LI for you.



END SPOILERS

I liked TW2 too (albeit a lot less than the previous game), but seriously... it had its fair share of cop-outs.

I think Triss has a heavy plating of plot armour which keeps her safe but I am not sure I would consider that particular instance a cop-out as it was handled in a somewhat believable way given the context of the game, just because Geralt chooses one over the other doesnt mean the other is doomed to failure, Roache is still a fairly capable guy and as for Triss I believe there is a reasonable explanation for that. Either way both choices do result in different outcomes.

And DA:O's consequences were all "fairy-tale" outcomes?

-Shanni getting raped in City Elf origin if you allow it
-Redcliffe being destroyed if you abandon it
-Elves being slain by werewolves if you side with them
-All mages being slain in the Circle Tower if you don't save the First Enchanter
-Dwarves being used on the anvil of the void if you don't destroy it
-Being forced to kill companions or have them betray you if you pick the wrong choice with them or if they hate you bad enough based on your choices
-Being forced to kill Ser Catherine and her guards if you don't surrender. Surrendering gets you thrown into jail from where you need to escape leading to an entirely different story arc.
-Having the city elves being sold as slaves sacrificed in a blood magic ritual to make you stronger or you can simply turn a blind eye to them being sold as slaves in return for massive gold.
-Being forced to start a fight against everyone at the Landsmeet if you don't raise enough supporters against Loghain (otherwise it's just the duel by itself)
-Alistair being executed/exiled if you make Loghain a Grey Warden
-The Warden dying in one ending.
-The epilogue scenes can have pretty negative outcomes based on some choices you picked or actions you did or didn't perform. For example if you side with the cultists (or just don't kill the dragon) then any pilgrims to Andraste's ashes will be slain. If you open a Chantry in Orzammar, riots happen which leads to many deaths and there's other bad things that can happen too.

This is excluding all the bad outcomes and choices in side quests. Let's not also forget Awakening where choosing to defend Vigil's Keep results in Amaranthine's demise and vice versa (although if you perform all the side quests associated with Vigil's Keep and upgrade it, it can survive while you defend Amaranthine but many people - including some companions left there - die regardless). Refusing to side with The Father means you will have to kill him and some companions will betray you here if you side with him.

So no there's no "fairy-tale" outcomes in all choices.

[Silfren]

I don't get why people think that Origins was dark and DA:2 not. Between the two I actually found DA2 the darker game, but that isn't to say I didn't find Origins dark--I did, but not throughout, as if darkness was part of the game's overall feel.
Being "dark" is far more than just various individual parts of the plot taken in isolation, but the overall atmosphere of the universe. The fact that Thedas is a world that has to live with the darkspawn as a constant presence, and always has the threat of a Blight hanging over its head--THAT'S why the setting is dark (or why it could have been dark, considering I don't think Origins is the best example of a dark setting). It would have been even darker were it a world where the darkspawn are always a constant menace on the surface, not just when an archdemon is on the loose. This is why I thought Orzammar was the darkest segment of the game: darkspawn are a constant reality. But on top of that, the everyday reality of the casteless...very dark.

Isolated episodes such as Hawke's mother being used as spare parts in a blood magic ritual is a dark part of the story, but it does NOT make the overall story dark: if everyone in the city of Kirkwall had to constantly live with that kind of fear over their heads at all times, always believing that at any moment, one of their loved ones could be dragged off for spare parts, THAT would make the story and universe itself dark. This is also why a story taking place during the early days of Tevinter, prior to the rise and later exaltation of Andraste, would be quite dark, at least if it were done from the point of view of the common people. Or a story set right in the middle of the first Blight, given it raged for nearly two hundred years. A setting where people had lived with the constant presence of a Blight for so many generations that nobody alive remembered life without the Blight would be very, VERY dark.

I recommend reading The Mistborn trilogy of books by Brian Sanderson as a great example of a genuinely dark fantasy. Dark isn't about isolated bad things happening that readers find scary or disturbing, but about those scary or disturbing things happening all the time, as part of the fictional setting's daily reality. Any story or movie featuring Gotham City would be another good example of what "dark fantasy" refers to.

Edited to clarify a point of possible confusion due to a typo.

Modifié par Silfren, 30 septembre 2012 - 03:25 .

[Anarya]

I curse the day the ESRB picked "mature" as a label/rating.

[upsettingshorts]

Elton John is dead wrote...

having a scene where you catch a husband beating his wife would be a nice touch to demonstrate the darkness of Thedas

This is why nobody of consequence takes the BSN's interpretation of what constitutes "dark" and "mature" seriously.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 30 septembre 2012 - 01:16 .

[slimgrin]

Gabey5 wrote...

Dragon age was never dark fantasy.

This. Dark is a term so vague it means nothing. But it's constantly used as a buzzword to sell stuff, games in particular. Bioware tried like crazy to capatilize on what they thought was a trend, mimicking not only Tolkein but Peter Jackson's LOTR movies. Then they tried to tack on the dark and mature angle. And it couldn't be more artificial. DA is high fantasy. It has nothing in common with Conan or the Witcher or Game of thrones. They need to stop trying to be dark and adult.  

Modifié par slimgrin, 30 septembre 2012 - 01:21 .

[upsettingshorts]

slimgrin wrote...

This. Dark is a term so vague it means nothing.

slimgrin wrote...

 It has nothing in common with Conan or the Witcher or Game of thrones.

You're right, it is meaningless!