191 réponses à ce sujet

[Zetheria Tabris]

@CELL55 That's how I interpreted the term "violated". That word is rarely used outside of describing rape or some other form of sexual assault.

Why would you think they wouldn't have any parts down there? They're said to be the corrupted forms of mages, who were humans and therefore had private parts.

[upsettingshorts]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

having a scene where you catch a husband beating his wife would be a nice touch to demonstrate the darkness of Thedas

This is why nobody of consequence takes the BSN's interpretation of what constitutes "dark" and "mature" seriously.

So that sort of stuff didn't happen in real life Medieval Ages (and even today)?

Irrelevant, and a straw man.  

Elton John is dead wrote...

See another topic DA avoids. Sexism.

You really think you're on to something with that.  

Dragon Age doesn't "avoid" sexism, they consciously removed it to make a damn point, one entirely lost on you.

Understanding that point would likely be among the steps anyone of consequence would require as a bare minimum before taking your position on "mature" seriously.  "Dark" might be a different matter.  That said, I don't speak with any authority on the matter, and maybe the DA writers would love a bit more rape and wife beating, it'd be a nice touch!

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 01 octobre 2012 - 04:20 .

[Plaintiff]

Zetheria Tabris wrote...

@CELL55 That's how I interpreted the term "violated". That word is rarely used outside of describing rape or some other form of sexual assault.

Why would you think they wouldn't have any parts down there? They're said to be the corrupted forms of mages, who were humans and therefore had private parts.

Well thunder was once said to be giants fighting, but that didn't make it true.

[Zetheria Tabris]

Plaintiff wrote...

Zetheria Tabris wrote...

@CELL55 That's how I interpreted the term "violated". That word is rarely used outside of describing rape or some other form of sexual assault.

Why would you think they wouldn't have any parts down there? They're said to be the corrupted forms of mages, who were humans and therefore had private parts.

Well thunder was once said to be giants fighting, but that didn't make it true.

I didn't say I agreed with it, or even that I thought that was true. I'm just saying that's what they're said to be. At any rate, they're humanoid beings, so most likely they have male body parts.

[Vandicus]

Zetheria Tabris wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Zetheria Tabris wrote...

@CELL55 That's how I interpreted the term "violated". That word is rarely used outside of describing rape or some other form of sexual assault.

Why would you think they wouldn't have any parts down there? They're said to be the corrupted forms of mages, who were humans and therefore had private parts.

Well thunder was once said to be giants fighting, but that didn't make it true.

I didn't say I agreed with it, or even that I thought that was true. I'm just saying that's what they're said to be. At any rate, they're humanoid beings, so most likely they have male body parts.

So darkspawn LI is possible?

[Plaintiff]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

having a scene where you catch a husband beating his wife would be a nice touch to demonstrate the darkness of Thedas

This is why nobody of consequence takes the BSN's interpretation of what constitutes "dark" and "mature" seriously.

So that sort of stuff didn't happen in real life Medieval Ages (and even today)?

Irrelevant, and a straw man.  

Elton John is dead wrote...

See another topic DA avoids. Sexism.

You really think you're on to something with that.  

Dragon Age doesn't "avoid" sexism, they consciously removed it to make a damn point, one entirely lost on you.

Understanding that point would likely be among the steps anyone of consequence would require as a bare minimum before taking your position on "mature" seriously.  "Dark" might be a different matter.  That said, I don't speak with any authority on the matter, and maybe the DA writers would love a bit more rape and wife beating, it'd be a nice touch!

I don't think I understood the point.

[upsettingshorts]

Plaintiff wrote...
I don't think I understood the point.

The point is that including explicit real world stereotypes - for whatever reason, including the tautological "they exist" justification - does little more than perpetuate them.  It's the opposite of mature to conclude, therefore, that for a setting to be "realistic" these stereotypes must be present.  Why?  Because the implication of said advocacy, usually exclusively offered by straight white guys, is that such a setting is both less comprehensible because it isn't real, and therefore less mature because it isn't real.  

"I can't take something seriously if it doesn't reinforce the negative stereotypes and social mores I'm comfortable with, especially ones that don't negatively reinforce my own image" is a pretty immature position, no matter how deep it's burried in the subtext.

It's especially heinous when statements demanding more darkness and maturity advocate including more wife beating and rape, to a series that already deals with slavery, the death penalty, civil rights, and terrorism.  Maturity is found in nuance, not visceral awfulness.  Darkness is found in circumstances, not shadows.

[Anarya]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
I don't think I understood the point.

The point is that including explicit real world stereotypes - for whatever reason, including the tautological "they exist" justification - does little more than perpetuate them.  It's the opposite of mature to conclude, therefore, that for a setting to be "realistic" these stereotypes must be present.  Why?  Because the implication of said advocacy, usually exclusively offered by straight white guys, is that such a setting is both less comprehensible because it isn't real, and therefore less mature because it isn't real.  

"I can't take something seriously if it doesn't reinforce the negative stereotypes and social mores I'm comfortable with, especially ones that don't negatively reinforce my own image" is a pretty immature position, no matter how deep it's burried in the subtext.

It's especially heinous when statements demanding more darkness and maturity advocate including more wife beating and rape, to a series that already deals with slavery, the death penalty, civil rights, and terrorism.  Maturity is found in nuance, not visceral awfulness.  Darkness is found in circumstances, not shadows.

Couldn't have said it better myself, really.

Why is it easy for people to suspend disbelief about magic and dragons and elves, but not gender equality? I find that kinda sad. 

[Plaintiff]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
I don't think I understood the point.

The point is that including explicit real world stereotypes - for whatever reason, including the tautological "they exist" justification - does little more than perpetuate them.  It's the opposite of mature to conclude, therefore, that for a setting to be "realistic" these stereotypes must be present.  Why?  Because the implication of said advocacy, usually exclusively offered by straight white guys, is that such a setting is both less comprehensible because it isn't real, and therefore less mature because it isn't real.  

"I can't take something seriously if it doesn't reinforce the negative stereotypes and social mores I'm comfortable with, especially ones that don't negatively reinforce my own image" is a pretty immature position, no matter how deep it's burried in the subtext.

It's especially heinous when statements demanding more darkness and maturity advocate including more wife beating and rape, to a series that already deals with slavery, the death penalty, civil rights, and terrorism.  Maturity is found in nuance, not visceral awfulness.  Darkness is found in circumstances, not shadows.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh. Well, I understand that.

I just assumed the writers didn't include sexism because it simply doesn't make sense. Thedas is a world where the dominant religion is a Matriarchy, their major religious figure is a she-Jesus/Joan of Arc splice, and women have been serving in the armed forces and assuming leadership positions for a long while. Given that context, it would be incongruous to turn around and say that women in Thedas are less valued, or fair game for violence.

[upsettingshorts]

Plaintiff wrote...

Given that context, it would be incongruous to turn around and say that women in Thedas are less valued, or fair game for violence.

Not only incongruous, but deeply revealing.  Damning, even.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 01 octobre 2012 - 05:01 .

[Runningleaf]

"Dark"?
I personally don't want to play a 50 hour slog through the deep roads with Hespeth type ramblings only to die saving the world and find out that everyone that met me is worse off and the world continues it's slow decent into hell. I hate when that happens.

The darkness of a game really relies on you go "get into it". Are you really looking through the eyes of a powerless person that has to take whatever happens to them all their lives? Who's whole family was slaughtered? Who's friend (LI?) was lost and persumed dead because you didn't drag him from the weird magic thing? Who wasn't in time to save your cousin? Who was betrayed by their brother and exiled? Who has to stop the blight in spite of the "ruler" of the lands your in? Are you carring that with you as you play?

Alistar was tormented by guilt over his mentors death and worry about the fate of those he loved, and people called him whiney. Ogren whas tormented by events in his life and people laughed at his drunken buffoonery. Not to mention the pasts of Leliana and Zevran, they covered it up better.

The games were dark, I think you weren't.

Oh and the rating "mature" only means that children wouldn't understand or enjoy it. Or we Hope they wouldn't. other wise it's to tickle the libido of the customer.

Modifié par Runningleaf, 01 octobre 2012 - 06:05 .

[Iosev]

One of the reasons why I think that it is difficult trying to classify a truly dark fantasy RPG is because part of what makes a story dark is the protagonist. The protagonist is a major element in exploring the darker elements of human nature and in many dark stories, the protagonist is often a character that would normally be considered a villain (or in the very least, morally ambiguous).

However, in RPGs, the protagonist's mindset and actions depends on the player. For example, if you play the game as a classic hero, you'll likely experience a much lighter story. In contrast, if you play the protagonist in a way that explores the darker aspects of human nature (e.g., murder, betrayal, etc.), you'll have a much darker experience.

Regardless, I enjoy the lighter elements in Bioware's games, so I personally have no desire to see Bioware trying to conform to a particular genre.

Modifié par arcelonious, 01 octobre 2012 - 05:13 .

[Runningleaf]

Exactly, arcelonious.

Play as a rabidly human hating Dalish and you'll get a dark game.
Quip with Alistar at Ostigar shortly after seeing your dead nephews body and leaving your parents to die... light game.

[Wolfspawn]

I haven't read ASoIaF or watched GoT. I haven't PLAYED the Witcher, but I have read all books but the end of the sixth one and all of the last one. I have played DAO and DA2, and they don't come CLOSE to The Witcher books or what I've heard of GoT. And I'm not just talking about nudity and sex. In fact, I'm NOT talking about nudity or sex at all. Both have mature themes, which is what maturity ACTUALLY is. The Dragon Age games should have the darker aspects of human nature. That would make me happy.

[septembervirgin]

Try Tanith Lee's "Tales of the Flat Earth", Samuel R Delany's "Neveryona: the Tale of Signs and Cities", Orson Scott Card's "Harts Hope", and Greg Bear's "Infinity Concerto". There. You have Dragon Age in four books.

[CELL55]

Vandicus wrote...

Zetheria Tabris wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Zetheria Tabris wrote...

@CELL55 That's how I interpreted the term "violated". That word is rarely used outside of describing rape or some other form of sexual assault.

Why would you think they wouldn't have any parts down there? They're said to be the corrupted forms of mages, who were humans and therefore had private parts.

Well thunder was once said to be giants fighting, but that didn't make it true.

I didn't say I agreed with it, or even that I thought that was true. I'm just saying that's what they're said to be. At any rate, they're humanoid beings, so most likely they have male body parts.

So darkspawn LI is possible?

Oh dear sweet Maker I'm sorry that I have inadvertantly led us her and I do so sincerely wish to pretend thus never happened.  Can we never speak of this again, please?

[Runningleaf]

What "darker aspects of human nature"? We have cruelty, rape, fratricide, betrayal of several flavors, torture, all kinds of greed, vengence. Not so much burning lust leading to bad things. oh alcoholism.

I mean, not on the protagonists part, unless you put it there, which you can.

[Allan Schumacher]

This came up on Project Eternity's discuss as well, and as I enter into the thread I already know what sort of topics are going to be touched on when someone uses the word "mature."

It seems as though people equate the term "mature" with something either "taboo" or "uncomfortable." I can at least make some sense over the idea of relating "dark" to something like "uncomfortable" in that my own perspective of the term is that a setting that is dark is one in which things happen that make me feel uncomfortable.

Maturity is another matter, however. Virtually anything can be discussed in a mature (or immature) manner. Yet it always comes back to people that want mature really seem to want "dark/gritty/uncomfortable." At least that's what always seems to be the case whenever I see threads hoping for more maturity.

[Wolfspawn]

Runningleaf wrote...

What "darker aspects of human nature"? We have cruelty, rape, fratricide, betrayal of several flavors, torture, all kinds of greed, vengence. Not so much burning lust leading to bad things. oh alcoholism.

I mean, not on the protagonists part, unless you put it there, which you can.

I mean darker aspects of human nature should be in there MORE. I'm not saying 'more of the same' I'm saying 'A LOT more of the same'.
Make the themes as prominent as they are in 'The Witcher' is what I'm saying.

[Runningleaf]

I for one like the ballance in origins of dark and light. It made it very playable and realistic, It's hard to labor for months (it must have taken that long) under a constant heaviness. Even dwarves laugh... I think.

[Dasher1010]

IMO, when I think, "mature" I think Spec Ops: The Line and The Witcher 2 since they had substance to their grit. I can't call something like Lollipop Chainsaw "mature" since it's the video game equivalent of a John Waters movie. If edgy content is put into DA3, I'd rather see it balanced with class and not tackiness.

[Runningleaf]

bob_20000 wrote...

Runningleaf wrote...

What "darker aspects of human nature"? We have cruelty, rape, fratricide, betrayal of several flavors, torture, all kinds of greed, vengence. Not so much burning lust leading to bad things. oh alcoholism.

I mean, not on the protagonists part, unless you put it there, which you can.

I mean darker aspects of human nature should be in there MORE. I'm not saying 'more of the same' I'm saying 'A LOT more of the same'.
Make the themes as prominent as they are in 'The Witcher' is what I'm saying.

I'm not familure with 'The Witcher'. So I can't say I understand. But I'm not sure how it could be realisticly more. every where we went several of these things were present. though a little more push back might have been nice. more people calling the elven protagonist Knife ear (worst insult ever) like happend to the dusters, or more activly siding with Logain, spiting at us or refusing us survice. that sort of thing.

[Cultist]

Goddamn, just don't make it cartoonish and anime-like, as we saw in Dragon Age 2 and I'll be happy.

[BrookerT]

Honestly, I'd rather they stick with Dragon Age 2's style

For me its all about the difference between High Fantasy and Low Fantasy.

High fantasy is a world where things are fantastical. It a world where the problems people face have little grounding in reality. World that are High Fantasy are Lord of the Rings, Terry Pratchett's Colour of Magic.

Low Fantasy is a world where the fantastical elements take a back seat to "real world" issues, which are much more liekly to have grounding in reality. Worlds that are low fantasy are A Game of Thrones, Terry Pratchett's Guards! Guards!.

While there are elemts of Low Fantasy in Dragon Age Origns (Dwarven Caste system and Elvish repression), it is a world primarly concerned with a fantastical threat. The Dark Spawn have little grounding in reality, and as a result, an issue we will never truly fear. While they may be scary, we know that no matter how scary they are, they are an abstaract evil, one we will never have to face.

This is where, IMO, Dragon Age 2 becomes darker. Of course Dragon Age 2 has elemts of high fantasy, like the red lyrium, Merril's eluvian, Justice/Anders, the problems the characters face are real issues. Ethnic oppression, Genocide, Paedohilia (either this or madness), Religious intolerance and Refugees. All these issues are factors which have a very real bearing in reality. These are issues we all truly fear. Maybe not all of them, but these have basis in the real world, and we lose the confort of going to sleep at night saying "no matter how scared I am, it's not real".

Dragon Age Origins, has plenty of low fantasy elements, and this is where the game truly shines. The Broodmoter is an abstarct threat, while scary, it can never trult harm us. But the Ethnic supression of the Elves is a real, (and briliiantly portrayed) threat. While not elves, it has happened before, the ethnic containing, and sunbsiquent genocide. But these elements are hidden behind a fantastical veil. They take a back seat to the problem of the Drakspawn.

In Dragon Age 2 however, there is no veil (well there is but, you know). Every issue is front and centre. The Darkspawn are not important in the story. Even though the darkspawn create a mass exodus, instead of focussing on the darkspawn, the game focuses on the refugees. With Anders/Justice, instead of focusing on the fantastical element of their realtionship, the game focuses on the very real internal argument over right and wrong, "One man's terrorist is another mans freedom fighter". Its these issues which make a gam dark and mature. The knowledge that the issues we tackled, and how they affected us will be carried with us into the real world when we stop playing.

TL.DR

I hope they stick with DA2's way because it is actually dark, as opposed to something fantastical. A real sign of maturity.

[Xewaka]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
maybe the DA writers would love a bit more rape and wife beating, it'd be a nice touch!

I think they had enough of that with the City Elf Origin.