191 réponses à ce sujet

[Anarya]

BrookerT wrote...

Honestly, I'd rather they stick with Dragon Age 2's style

For me its all about the difference between High Fantasy and Low Fantasy.

High fantasy is a world where things are fantastical. It a world where the problems people face have little grounding in reality. World that are High Fantasy are Lord of the Rings, Terry Pratchett's Colour of Magic.

Low Fantasy is a world where the fantastical elements take a back seat to "real world" issues, which are much more liekly to have grounding in reality. Worlds that are low fantasy are A Game of Thrones, Terry Pratchett's Guards! Guards!.

While there are elemts of Low Fantasy in Dragon Age Origns (Dwarven Caste system and Elvish repression), it is a world primarly concerned with a fantastical threat. The Dark Spawn have little grounding in reality, and as a result, an issue we will never truly fear. While they may be scary, we know that no matter how scary they are, they are an abstaract evil, one we will never have to face.

This is where, IMO, Dragon Age 2 becomes darker. Of course Dragon Age 2 has elemts of high fantasy, like the red lyrium, Merril's eluvian, Justice/Anders, the problems the characters face are real issues. Ethnic oppression, Genocide, Paedohilia (either this or madness), Religious intolerance and Refugees. All these issues are factors which have a very real bearing in reality. These are issues we all truly fear. Maybe not all of them, but these have basis in the real world, and we lose the confort of going to sleep at night saying "no matter how scared I am, it's not real".

Dragon Age Origins, has plenty of low fantasy elements, and this is where the game truly shines. The Broodmoter is an abstarct threat, while scary, it can never trult harm us. But the Ethnic supression of the Elves is a real, (and briliiantly portrayed) threat. While not elves, it has happened before, the ethnic containing, and sunbsiquent genocide. But these elements are hidden behind a fantastical veil. They take a back seat to the problem of the Drakspawn.

In Dragon Age 2 however, there is no veil (well there is but, you know). Every issue is front and centre. The Darkspawn are not important in the story. Even though the darkspawn create a mass exodus, instead of focussing on the darkspawn, the game focuses on the refugees. With Anders/Justice, instead of focusing on the fantastical element of their realtionship, the game focuses on the very real internal argument over right and wrong, "One man's terrorist is another mans freedom fighter". Its these issues which make a gam dark and mature. The knowledge that the issues we tackled, and how they affected us will be carried with us into the real world when we stop playing.

TL.DR

I hope they stick with DA2's way because it is actually dark, as opposed to something fantastical. A real sign of maturity.

Bless this post.

[Chipaway111]

To quote a much adored critic of mine "Dragon Age isn't dark fantasy, nor is it light, gray, avocado, or caffeine-free fantasy, it's just straight fantasy classic." and I have to agree with him. The first origin I ever chose while playing Dragon Age was city elf so right off the bat I was confronted with racism, rape, poverty and death. Even then though I never really felt uncomfortable, I was just apathetic.

That sounds really callous but I can't put it any other way. What happened to Shianni is horrible, and as a human I really felt for her, but it didn't actually have the impact it should have. Maybe because Vaughan was nothing but a walking stereotype to me that him committing the act wasn't shocking.

I like things when they're subtle, and implied rather than shoving it in my face. Alice: MR did this well (imo) in implying everything that happened to her sister (mostly, from what I can recall).

But mature and dark have ceased to mean much, especially in fantasy games where everything is meant to be gritty that it becomes the standard not the exception.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

For my part, 'mature' just means the game isn't meant for kiddies. The majority of content will be aimed at an adult audience (or at least an audience over a specific age which is deemed 'mature' for some reason).

'Dark' I'm not sure how Bioware defines. Certainly there are moments of grimness, horror and depravity in DA:O and DA2 both which some have found disturbing (like the Broodmother), but IMO these have only been moments and not defining for the whole of either game. I don't find it much darker than Baldur's Gate 2, to be honest, at least in terms of concept. It's the cinematics in DA that allow scenes to be portrayed much more explicitly.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 01 octobre 2012 - 07:57 .

[inko1nsiderate]

Mr Mxyzptlk wrote...

What is so Dark and Mature about the Dragon Age universe? And how exactly will that translate in Dragon Age 3?
(See Dragon Age 3 related, keep those lock happy fingers away from my thread Stan)

I mean I dont get what is considered so Dark and mature about the series, sure the world is bland and ugly but that doesnt make it dark, just bland and ugly. Looking at past examples Origins seems to be the standard good vs evil story, noble heroes fighting against impossible odds and winning, every choice you make has the "fairytale ending" option, nothing really dark about it. To be honest the phrase "Dark and Mature" gets thrown around so much these days I am not really sure what it means anymore, give me your definition of "Dark and Mature".

I'd agree with others and that dark is something that makes you feel uncomfortable, but I'd add that it makes you feel uncomfortable and has applicability to the darker and more horrid things humans are doing to each other in the real world.  The best example I can think of this is probably Stargate Universe.  When compared to the other Stargate franchises, it is dark.  The reason why it is dark is preobably because people die for no reason, people are pushing to make pragmatic decisions that will lead to more death, people get left behind, even the good guys do some nasty things, the struggle to survive is central to most plots, character's personal lives often take a large punch to the gut, and most major choices end up having some downside to them. Most of these things make people uncomfortable, but not all of them have to in order to be considered 'dark'.  Using this as a guideline,Dragon Age only qualifies as dark in a few of the story lines.

As to mature, I'd say anytime an issue is approached with some nuance, frankness, and is treated in a serious and not cliched way it can be mature.   I think you could make a sunshine and lolipops happy ending to a story and still be able to hit mature.  Dragon Age is mature in how it handles the way the PC interactions with the companions, and also how it handles certain central characters like Loghain. Loghain acts in an evil way, but he isn't some cartoonish villain.  He may be mad and paranoid, but his intent is to protect Fereldan against Orlais.  The conversations with Sten and Wynne about various philosophies about life are very frank.  They present ideas and ways of thinking that you may disagree with, but they do it in an earnest way that allows for shades of grey as well as disagreement.

In a less philisophical sense, the maturity also comes from the kinds of topics that come up in game.  If you have alienage elves almost getting raped, duster dwarves struggling to kill their new born or be exiled, and four somes with randy pirates in bars then the game is mature in the coloquial sense of the word.  In short, dealing with topics that are often considered inappropriate for children.

Modifié par inko1nsiderate, 01 octobre 2012 - 08:23 .

[Zkyire]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
I don't think I understood the point.

The point is that including explicit real world stereotypes - for whatever reason, including the tautological "they exist" justification - does little more than perpetuate them.  It's the opposite of mature to conclude, therefore, that for a setting to be "realistic" these stereotypes must be present.  Why?  Because the implication of said advocacy, usually exclusively offered by straight white guys, is that such a setting is both less comprehensible because it isn't real, and therefore less mature because it isn't real.  

"I can't take something seriously if it doesn't reinforce the negative stereotypes and social mores I'm comfortable with, especially ones that don't negatively reinforce my own image" is a pretty immature position, no matter how deep it's burried in the subtext.

It's especially heinous when statements demanding more darkness and maturity advocate including more wife beating and rape, to a series that already deals with slavery, the death penalty, civil rights, and terrorism.  Maturity is found in nuance, not visceral awfulness.  Darkness is found in circumstances, not shadows.

I had a thrilling time reading your sources on that.

Wonderful read, old chap.

..oh wait.

Modifié par Zkyire, 01 octobre 2012 - 09:23 .

[upsettingshorts]

Zkyire wrote...

I had a thrilling time reading your sources on that.

Wonderful read, old chap.

..oh wait.

I'll skip the part where I explain how that was just my impression, the sarcastic remarks questioning why that's the part you respond to, etc, and just remove it entirely. 

Here you go, offending passage removed.  Try to find how it changes the message at all (it doesn't).

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
I don't think I understood the point.

The point is that including explicit real world stereotypes - for whatever reason, including the tautological "they exist" justification - does little more than perpetuate them.  It's the opposite of mature to conclude, therefore, that for a setting to be "realistic" these stereotypes must be present.  Why?  Because the implication of said advocacy is that such a setting is both less comprehensible because it isn't real, and therefore less mature because it isn't real.  

"I can't take something seriously if it doesn't reinforce the negative stereotypes and social mores I'm comfortable with, especially ones that don't negatively reinforce my own image" is a pretty immature position, no matter how deep it's buried in the subtext.

It's especially heinous when statements demanding more darkness and maturity advocate including more wife beating and rape, to a series that already deals with slavery, the death penalty, civil rights, and terrorism.  Maturity is found in nuance, not visceral awfulness.  Darkness is found in circumstances, not shadows.

Goalposts still firmly placed.  Nice red herring in pointing out my ad hominem, though.  I'd call us even except now my post gets to be on a whole new page, looks like I'm ahead!

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 01 octobre 2012 - 10:03 .

[cindercatz]

Well, on my first playthrough, when my impoverished female city elf, whose fun little story for the kiddies was all about robbing from rich human nobles (her oppressors), had her arranged double marriage hijacked by the lawful human noble right of first intercourse (institutionalized rape, ala Braveheart's enemies in the nobility, not just a crazy evil villain), then had to choose between allowing herself to be raped or causing her cousin (who'd already been raped and who she was trying to save) from being murdered, was raped, and then watched an unarmed woman she'd known for most of life brutally killed in the final breakout, then had to make a choice between outright murdering her rapist after his submission or bringing more violence down on the alienage, then by that point chose murder purely out of rage (which does nothing to change the system of institutionalized rape or human economic and cultural oppression of the elves), then was saved from execution by conscription, which also resulted in the deaths of her two fellow recruits, then at the end was rejected in her relationship with Alistair because it was politically unfeasible...

I was pretty much sold on dark and mature. I was fully sold on her situation and what kind of world she inhabited, and that allowed me to fully inhabit her skin.

DA:O was really dark (dealing with humanistic and societal evils in frank fashion) and mature (dealing with said subject matter in ways that are not black and white in thought or outcome) in spades, except that it didn't do enough to show just how unjust the setting was if you played, say human noble, though when I next played human noble and I knew the situation Iona was in, then I saw her killed in a political betrayal that also wiped out the human noble's family, then following my personal revenge, political ambition meant exiling my friend and a marriage of political convenience, leaving my love interest Leliana as concubine, that was pretty dark. It wouldn't be nearly so dark if I hadn't played the female city elf first, however, because I wouldn't have the full context.

When I played Dwarven Noble and initially supported restoring caste to the casteless, then lost the oppurtunity because I retaliated against the proponent of said policy for personally backstabbing me and attempting to stain my honor, that was pretty dark, moreso when the "noble hunter's" son I never knew I'd have was denied caste because of my actions.

Playing female dwarven casteless and both supporting someone I know to be a user and a murderer to protect the interests of my sister and nephew, and supporting to self interest with the casteless as opposed to a beneficent outside presense, was pretty dark, more so being turned on by her best friend and having to kill him, just because Jarvia could pay well and was present.

The very first choice as a Dalish elf, committing murder because my elf was afraid two random humans in the woods would alert other humans and bring their armies to my camp (not out of hatred, but distrust), that was dark too.

DA:O is very dark for most of the game. It falls down in giving you ways out of many of the main game situations. But if you give the origins and return home trips the weight they deserve, the whole is still a very dark and mostly mature game. My city elf found every third way option she could to save as many innocent lives as possible, since she was driven by social and personal justice because of what she'd been through personally, so I took those options with her when I could (elves/werewolves, mages, Redcliff, that order), but other characters motivations differed based on their own origin stories.

It could be very light for a playthrough, I suppose, like if you played female human noble, I guess you could get everything you wanted (with some personal sacrifice on Alistair's part, which is significant), but for the most part, as you play more aspects of it and uncover more nuance, it paints a very dark picture throughout, aside from the fantastic elements, and the supernatural horrific. It does, cringingly, skimp on nudity (in favor of see through underoos, very strangely...), and it does make other concessions in places where it shouldn't (Redcliff being the most obvious), but it's mostly successful in setting and maintaining its intended tone.

DA2 was nowhere near as dark or mature. I found pretty much every decision painted in stark black and white, good and evil turns, and then that superficially juxtaposed against Chantry tyranny, but there was nowhere near the moral nuance and nowhere near the unabashed depiction of pure human corruption. Most evil acts in the game are even given an out clause in the lyrium artifact (shouldn't have existed, nor crazy people leader boss fights). The only bits I thought really qualified were the Qunari mage and Hawke's mother's death, which can leave you questioning your own culpability, but isn't followed up on. Most everything is crazy stupid evil versus common sense, not mature. And then it's presented like a Saturday morning cartoon, with blood fountains and cartoonish, very unrelatable enemies, and all the oppressed groups being outside the main character's point of view no matter what, and comedic romance scenes fading to black like a PG tv show with no follow through for their personal storylines, and that makes it all worse.

[nijnij]

Personally, I can't help but cringe when something is going out of its way to shock me, just for shock's sake. There's just so much of that in today's entertainment that we become pretty much anesthetized. Today it seems a hero can't interrogate a bad guy without beating him up, two people can't kiss without pushing each other into a wall, one can't go to a bathroom without doing drugs, it's just awfully boring and repetitive IMHO. As far as creepy/violent/dark goes, I tend to think less is more, or after a while it just all becomes one big farce. Blood splatter and exploding enemies being the most obvious examples of that Dragon Age-wise. Sure, gore is an inherent part of Dragon Age's cool, but it's very easy to go over the top with those things.

I'll quote Ron Gilbert here :
"Problem with a lot of M titles is they come from "developer immaturity" more than artistic need. The industry is made up of a lot of people that still giggle when they see a breast. Being M doesn't make you cool. Making a game where two girls kiss doesn't make you an "artist"."

[Runningleaf]

Chipaway111 wrote...

To quote a much adored critic of mine "Dragon Age isn't dark fantasy, nor is it light, gray, avocado, or caffeine-free fantasy, it's just straight fantasy classic." and I have to agree with him. The first origin I ever chose while playing Dragon Age was city elf so right off the bat I was confronted with racism, rape, poverty and death. Even then though I never really felt uncomfortable, I was just apathetic.

That sounds really callous but I can't put it any other way. What happened to Shianni is horrible, and as a human I really felt for her, but it didn't actually have the impact it should have. Maybe because Vaughan was nothing but a walking stereotype to me that him committing the act wasn't shocking.

I like things when they're subtle, and implied rather than shoving it in my face. Alice: MR did this well (imo) in implying everything that happened to her sister (mostly, from what I can recall).

But mature and dark have ceased to mean much, especially in fantasy games where everything is meant to be gritty that it becomes the standard not the exception.

You were apathetic because you didn't "enter the game".

On subtlely, people miss it. I was one that wasn't sure if Shianni was raped (due to dialogue choices)  untill the Guardian of the Urn asked me his question.

About Vaughan, you've obviously been blessed never to be around a racist when they've had a "They think their people" moment. It's scary and not dissimular to this, more so if they add, "let's teach them their place."

On someone elses note, it didn't seem like Vaughan's actions were santioned. Just that his highness and our lowness made justice likely unattainable. King Calin's responce, if you tell, him indicates this.

Modifié par Runningleaf, 01 octobre 2012 - 01:03 .

[kellyofthemagi]

[quote]Mr Mxyzptlk wrote...

What is so Dark and Mature about the Dragon Age universe? And how exactly will that translate in Dragon Age 3?
(See Dragon Age 3 related, keep those lock happy fingers away from my thread Stan)

I mean I dont get what is considered so Dark and mature about the series, sure the world is bland and ugly but that doesnt make it dark, just bland and ugly. Looking at past examples Origins seems to be the standard good vs evil story, noble heroes fighting against impossible odds and winning, every choice you make has the "fairytale ending" option, nothing really dark about it. To be honest the phrase "Dark and Mature" gets thrown around so much these days I am not really sure what it means anymore, give me your definition of "Dark and Mature".[/quote        It's by no means Dark! Mature yes!  My opinion it's a Fantasy world, A rpg So multiple endings are expected bad and good if you want to call it fairy tale thats ok some people like happy endings. Cuz real life can pretty much such! So if some one wants to play a fantasy to escape the real world and have a happy ending more power to them. If somone chooses the more tragic path more power to them. DA is a Fantasy world best to remember that. Some take it way to serious. 

[cindercatz]

Runningleaf wrote...

On someone elses note, it didn't seem like Vaughan's actions were santioned. Just that his highness and our lowness made justice likely unattainable. King Calin's responce, if you tell, him indicates this.

He claims lawful right just like in Braveheart, and that's the first thing I thought of. DA is largely a medieval Europe analogue, and that's part of medieval Europe.

That's why when I first met Calin with my city elf, she pretty much let him know what she thought of human nobility. Calin was either giving her a platitude to smooth things over (his style, certainly) or he was so far removed from the workings of his kingdom as to be offensive. That's how I saw it through her eyes.

Nobility in DA:O routinely have torture chambers, etc. as well, I'm sure. It's not that torture was being performed that gets the nobility at the Landsmeet riled up. It's that it was their family members and members of the Chantry order (Templars by extension). Even when Loghain sells the alienage elves off to slavery, people are less interested simply because they're elves, even though slavery is outlawed in Fereldan. They seem to be more appalled that he'd made a secret deal with Tevinter.

edit: There's another example with the frangrance vendor in the Market District of Denerim. She'll tell you about how in Orlais, nobility (the Chevalier in question being noble) are allowed to take peasants at their will, as well, which is why she fled Orlais, after her brother came to her defense. If you're a city elf, it's just another example of evil human lords.

Modifié par cindercatz, 01 octobre 2012 - 02:30 .

[Runningleaf]

cindercatz wrote...

Runningleaf wrote...

On someone elses note, it didn't seem like Vaughan's actions were santioned. Just that his highness and our lowness made justice likely unattainable. King Calin's responce, if you tell, him indicates this.

He claims lawful right just like in Braveheart, and that's the first thing I thought of. DA is largely a medieval Europe analogue, and that's part of medieval Europe.

That's why when I first met Calin with my city elf, she pretty much let him know what she thought of human nobility. Calin was either giving her a platitude to smooth things over (his style, certainly) or he was so far removed from the workings of his kingdom as to be offensive. That's how I saw it through her eyes.

Nobility in DA:O routinely have torture chambers, etc. as well, I'm sure. It's not that torture was being performed that gets the nobility at the Landsmeet riled up. It's that it was their family members and members of the Chantry order (Templars by extension). Even when Loghain sells the alienage elves off to slavery, people are less interested simply because they're elves, even though slavery is outlawed in Fereldan. They seem to be more appalled that he'd made a secret deal with Tevinter.

He doesn't claim anything lawful, I went back and checked the Dialogue, and the dialogue of others surrounding the event. No one says anything about it being his right as a noble, it isn't even implied. They say he's a bastard and a bully. latter he shows up with numerous armed guards that surround the cowed and unarmed peasants (might makes right) and makes off with the girls. Certainly Vaughen's belief is that elves aren't people and no one would believe them over him or go through the trouble of trying to punish a noble... but it's not lawfull.

It may be a part of history, but not throughout. It may have always happened, but was not always santioned.

and they were outraged by Fereldans being sold into slavery in my game. Dialogue choices maybe?

edit; That's in Orlias, not Fereldan. She say's that it's not the case in fereldan, that the low don't seem so low and the high don't seem so high here. She is human, but her case doesn't apply to our country. One of our responses, even as a city elf, is "They're allowed to rape women?!" or something like that.

edit again: the Elves were quite outraged, in male elf origin they don't say this happens all the time. only elva indicates it happens occationaly, and that this is particularly egregious. Just ran male city origins again, the head elf guy says Vaughen has never been so bold, but with his father gone who knows what he thinks he can get away with. no talk of noble rights.

Modifié par Runningleaf, 01 octobre 2012 - 03:21 .

[Ridwan]

What's wrong with the world of Dragon Age: Origins? Not everyone likes sad bleak worlds you know.

[Krusty84]

M25105 wrote...

What's wrong with the world of Dragon Age: Origins? Not everyone likes sad bleak worlds you know.

Too much high fantasy too little of that:

or this:

Good Writing

Modifié par Krusty84, 01 octobre 2012 - 03:22 .

[ScotGaymer]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

having a scene where you catch a husband beating his wife would be a nice touch to demonstrate the darkness of Thedas

This is why nobody of consequence takes the BSN's interpretation of what constitutes "dark" and "mature" seriously.

So that sort of stuff didn't happen in real life Medieval Ages (and even today)?

Irrelevant, and a straw man.  

Elton John is dead wrote...

See another topic DA avoids. Sexism.

You really think you're on to something with that.  

Dragon Age doesn't "avoid" sexism, they consciously removed it to make a damn point, one entirely lost on you.

Understanding that point would likely be among the steps anyone of consequence would require as a bare minimum before taking your position on "mature" seriously.  "Dark" might be a different matter.  That said, I don't speak with any authority on the matter, and maybe the DA writers would love a bit more rape and wife beating, it'd be a nice touch!

I find that at least half the time I disagree with what you say and half the time I completely agree.

With this post I am in the complete agreement camp.

Elton has clearly completely missed the key difference between Thedas and Earth. He is equating it with Europe, and the Chantry with the Catholic Church - and they are abolutely not completely analgalous.

Where the Catholic Church rigorously (after the Dark Ages) enforced The Patriarchy and thus the dominance of the male sex; the Chantry is the complete opposite.
The Chantry is a Matriarchy, and thus has promoted a more equal relationship between the sexes in Thedas.

A husband beating his wife would be unlikely to be tolerated by society at large as a result.

It isn't a realistic request.

[cindercatz]

edit: There's still sexism in Dragon Age, just not institutionalized sexism (outside of maybe the Qunari, but that's more bias against everybody having any ambition to do anything other than whatever they've been assigned to be). The PC can be sexist in his responses if male in a few instances (Dwarven Noble origin, for sure), and the PC can also be the victim of sexist remarks occasionally.

It's treated as a societal evil that's mostly been beaten by the accomplishments of heroic figures in the past, like Aveline (from Leliana's story). There is generally equality in the armed services, one can be a governing and respected queen just as readily as king, etc. It does not pretend that the issue does not exist, rather it's been mostly overcome.

Runningleaf wrote...

He doesn't claim anything lawful, I went back and checked the Dialogue, and the dialogue of others surrounding the event. No one says anything about it being his right as a noble, it isn't even implied. They say he's a bastard and a bully. latter he shows up with numerous armed guards that surround the cowed and unarmed peasants (might makes right) and makes off with the girls. Certainly Vaughen's belief is that elves aren't people and no one would believe them over him or go through the trouble of trying to punish a noble... but it's not lawfull.

It may be a part of history, but not throughout. It may have always happened, but was not always santioned.

and they were outraged by Fereldans being sold into slavery in my game. Dialogue choices maybe?

edit; That's in Orlias, not Fereldan. She say's that it's not the case in fereldan, that the low don't seem so low and the high don't seem so high here. She is human, but her case doesn't apply to our country.

edit again: the Elves were quite outraged, in male elf origin they don't say this happens all the time. only elva indicates it happens occationaly, and that this is particularly egregious.

Maybe so. I know that's how I took it at least, because that's what I remembered. A whole contingent of the local ruler's army would tend to say it's at least accepted to a degree among the human nobility. Excepting the King with outside support, the Teyrn is the law in Denerim. Also, the father, while not particularly fond of the man his son is if I remember right, still intends to have you executed for defending yourself and the other women of the alienage, for killing his son in the moment of what he did, because no matter the crime, you were still an elf challenging a noble. And they do threaten violence in retaliation. And it could also be dialogue choices, yes. I'm sure one choice can be more stark than another, etc.

Not throughout, of course. My point was that this is taken as an analogue of historical oppression and abuse of the peasantry by the nobility in medieval Europe, which it is. Vaughn represents, in the city elf origin, what humans are allowed to get away with against the downtrodden elves. If he'd done that to a full citizen of Ferelden, nevermind a whole wedding party, nevermind a noble, it would be treated far differently.

All of the Landsmeet responses can go for or against you based on your persuasion and cunning, and when Loghain challenges you once presented evidence, he does so on the basis of their being elves. The greater issue is that they are Fereldens being sold to Tevinter, though their elvenhood somehow makes it less an issue (though slavery is outlawed like I noted, and therefore a negative issue either way, which is of course why Anora tips you this in the first place).

In Orlais, yes, but as a city elf, you have first hand experience of it happening in Denerim (Fereldan) as well, and therefore it's another example of abuse of human lords over the less fortunate, rather than something far away and outside your personal experience.

It happening occasionally means it's allowed. If it were treated as a crime and cracked down on, then it would be far more rare. It's egregious because he took the whole party of women instead of just the bride and because people died.

The whole point of the scene is to illustrate how abusive the human nobility is toward the elves, that they actually are oppressed, and not just poor. It's not to pit the hero against an early psycho and be done with it. That's why the option to have a seat at court appointed from the alienage at the end of the game is such a big deal. It's the first time they'll have had lawful representation, any voice in Denerim's government.

edit: retaliation for retribution, I'm tired.

Modifié par cindercatz, 01 octobre 2012 - 04:02 .

[Overlord_Mephist]

nijnij wrote...

I'll quote Ron Gilbert here : "Problem with a lot of M titles is they come from "developer immaturity" more than artistic need. The industry is made up of a lot of people that still giggle when they see a breast. Being M doesn't make you cool. Making a game where two girls kiss doesn't make you an "artist"."

You can practically feel his envy.  Bolded for ironic hilarity

[Runningleaf]

cindercatz wrote...

Maybe so. I know that's how I took it at least, because that's what I remembered. A whole contingent of the local ruler's army would tend to say it's at least accepted to a degree among the human nobility. Excepting the King with outside support, the Teyrn is the law in Denerim. Also, the father, while not particularly fond of the man his son is if I remember right, still intends to have you executed for defending yourself and the other women of the alienage, for killing his son in the moment of what he did, because no matter the crime, you were still an elf challenging a noble. And they do threaten violence in retribution. And it could also be dialogue choices, yes. I'm sure one choice can be more stark than another, etc.

Not throughout, of course. My point was that this is taken as an analogue of historical oppression and abuse of the peasantry by the nobility in medieval Europe, which it is. Vaughn represents, in the city elf origin, what humans are allowed to get away with against the downtrodden elves. If he'd done that to a full citizen of Ferelden, nevermind a whole wedding party, nevermind a noble, it would be treated far differently.

All of the Landsmeet responses can go for or against you based on your persuasion and cunning, and when Loghain challenges you once presented evidence, he does so on the basis of their being elves. The greater issue is that they are Fereldens being sold to Tevinter, though their elvenhood somehow makes it less an issue (though slavery is outlawed like I noted, and therefore a negative issue either way, which is of course why Anora tips you this in the first place).

In Orlais, yes, but as a city elf, you have first hand experience of it happening in Denerim (Fereldan) as well, and therefore it's another example of abuse of human lords over the less fortunate, rather than something far away and outside your personal experience.

It happening occasionally means it's allowed. If it were treated as a crime and cracked down on, then it would be far more rare. It's egregious because he took the whole party of women instead of just the bride and because people died.

The whole point of the scene is to illustrate how abusive the human nobility is toward the elves, that they actually are oppressed, and not just poor. It's not to pit the hero against an early psycho and be done with it. That's why the option to have a seat at court appointed from the alienage at the end of the game is such a big deal. It's the first time they'll have had lawful representation, any voice in Denerim's government.

I'm not talking about what our characters perceive, I'm talking about what is said.

Who was that sports guy just recently caught for pedifilia? It took years of him getting away with it and people looking the other way before he was punished. Does that me we allow it? No, in part people don't talk about it and any hints are chalked up as misunderstanding what was said. Because it's too disterbing to think a friend does that.

the male origin say's vaughen did the same to an elven servant in his castle last year. No mention of running off with brides. And that his father is away, making him more bold. the guards that come to arrest you are city guards, under the Arl but not the Arls personal guard. It was Vaughen's men, and ones that wanted to join in the behavior that aided him.

I agree the scene is suppossed to show you how bad the elves have, or can have it. and it's too bad that this isn't carried a littled more into the broader game. you're hardly called a knife-ear outside the alianage. And that this is the reason the elves need their own representative. Because getting justice against the powerfull is hard without it. They obviously can't expect justice against the Arls son when the only one they can appeal to is the Arl himself.

[Iosev]

Runningleaf wrote...

Quip with Alistar at Ostigar shortly after seeing your dead nephews body and leaving your parents to die... light game.

I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic with this statement, but I was talking about differences like a classic, heroic Warden enlisting the Circle to save Connor and his mother, a jaded, demon-fearing Warden that doesn't hesitate to kill Connor, or a Hawke who is so overwrought with anger towards mages for the death of his mother that he later allows Meredith to execute his own sister.

In general, I think a dark story depends on both the setting and the protagonist.  For example, A morally-good protagonist that overcomes his or her dark setting results in a much lighter story than a morally-ambiguous protagonist that becomes a victim to his or her dark setting (relatively-speaking).  My overall point was that it's easier to classify books and films as dark because the protagonist is set and can be written to explore darker themes, than it is to classify video games as dark because the protagonist's mindset and actions are often player-defined.

If you weren't being sarcastic, then ignore what I've said.

Modifié par arcelonious, 01 octobre 2012 - 04:21 .

[Runningleaf]

arcelonious wrote...

Runningleaf wrote...

Quip with Alistar at Ostigar shortly after seeing your dead nephews body and leaving your parents to die... light game.

I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic with this statement, but I was talking about differences like a classic, heroic Warden enlisting the Circle to save Connor and his mother, a jaded, demon-fearing Warden that doesn't hesitate to kill Connor, or a Hawke who is so overwrought with anger towards mages for the death of his mother that he later allows Meredith to execute his own sister.

In general, I think a dark story depends on both the setting and the protagonist.  For example, A morally-good protagonist that overcomes his or her dark setting results in a much lighter story than a morally-ambiguous protagonist that becomes a victim to his or her dark setting (relatively-speaking).  My overall point was that it's easier to classify books and films as dark because the protagonist is set, than it is to classify video games as dark because the protagonist's mindset and actions are often player-defined.

If you weren't being sarcastic, then ignore what I've said.

Yes that one was sarcastic (need to add smiley faces). but in the light of day I think I can make my point better. It is related to your comment however.

In order to have a deep game you have to get under the skin of your character and own their "dark setting", and make choices based on that. (see hateing Dalish comment).

If you can not, or do not, "own" the character, your game will always be shallow, or light. (See sarcastic commment). In an RPG like this, the material is provided, it is up to us to feel the angst of our protaganast.

As Shel Silverstein Wrote: "this bridge will take you halfway there, the last few steps you'll have to take alone."

Modifié par Runningleaf, 01 octobre 2012 - 04:25 .

[David Gaider]

Sorry, but I can't help but roll my eyes a little every time this topic comes up.

It's pretty clear that everyone who talks about "dark" as an adjective means something a little different by it-- generally there's some title that is also labeled "dark fantasy" and they declare that, since Dragon Age doesn't match that game thematically, it therefore can't be dark fantasy... since dark fantasy is one thing and one thing only? Never mind that any conversation on the topic reveals that the adjective is open to wild interpretation?

Dragon Age deals with mature themes: slavery, racism, sexuality, the struggle of humanity versus itself. It's not just about good vs. evil. It thus does have dark fantasy elements, but it's also not solely dark fantasy. It has elements of high fantasy as well. We don't need it to fit comfortably into a single box, and I'm not sure why anyone else would.

To me, this is the same kind of pseudo-intellectual exercise as trying to squeeze BioWare's characters into archetypes-- what's the point? At best this is an issue about communicating what the game actually is, but if someone honestly expects us to qualify every description with "it's dark fantasy, but not like x and only because of y, and it's high fantasy, but not like x or x and only because of z" then you're out of your mind. We think the dark fantasy elements are more important, especially to distinguish Dragon Age from the typical high fantasy world mold of D&D, and while YMMV that doesn't change Dragon Age from simply being what it is.

[Runningleaf]

David Gaider wrote...

Sorry, but I can't help but roll my eyes a little every time this topic comes up.

It's pretty clear that everyone who talks about "dark" as an adjective means something a little different by it-- generally there's some title that is also labeled "dark fantasy" and they declare that, since Dragon Age doesn't match that game thematically, it therefore can't be dark fantasy... since dark fantasy is one thing and one thing only? Never mind that any conversation on the topic reveals that the adjective is open to wild interpretation?

Dragon Age deals with mature themes: slavery, racism, sexuality, the struggle of humanity versus itself. It's not just about good vs. evil. It thus does have dark fantasy elements, but it's also not solely dark fantasy. It has elements of high fantasy as well. We don't need it to fit comfortably into a single box, and I'm not sure why anyone else would.

To me, this is the same kind of pseudo-intellectual exercise as trying to squeeze BioWare's characters into archetypes-- what's the point? At best this is an issue about communicating what the game actually is, but if someone honestly expects us to qualify every description with "it's dark fantasy, but not like x and only because of y, and it's high fantasy, but not like x or x and only because of z" then you're out of your mind. We think the dark fantasy elements are more important, especially to distinguish Dragon Age from the typical high fantasy world mold of D&D, and while YMMV that doesn't change Dragon Age from simply being what it is.

It must be usfull feed back. The oppinion of the actuall games seems well distributed, very dark, not dark enough, just right. and what the people consider to be too dark or what might even make them turn away from a game altogether. It may be silly, maybe, but It must have it's uses.

[Iosev]

Runningleaf wrote...

arcelonious wrote...

Runningleaf wrote...

Quip with Alistar at Ostigar shortly after seeing your dead nephews body and leaving your parents to die... light game.

I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic with this statement, but I was talking about differences like a classic, heroic Warden enlisting the Circle to save Connor and his mother, a jaded, demon-fearing Warden that doesn't hesitate to kill Connor, or a Hawke who is so overwrought with anger towards mages for the death of his mother that he later allows Meredith to execute his own sister.

In general, I think a dark story depends on both the setting and the protagonist.  For example, A morally-good protagonist that overcomes his or her dark setting results in a much lighter story than a morally-ambiguous protagonist that becomes a victim to his or her dark setting (relatively-speaking).  My overall point was that it's easier to classify books and films as dark because the protagonist is set, than it is to classify video games as dark because the protagonist's mindset and actions are often player-defined.

If you weren't being sarcastic, then ignore what I've said.

If you can not, or do not, "own" the character, your game will always be shallow, or light. (See sarcastic commment). In an RPG like this, the material is provided, it is up to us to feel the angst of our protaganast.

As Shel Silverstein Wrote: "this bridge will take you halfway there, the last few steps you'll have to take alone."

Ah yes, I agree, I think that Bioware incorporates elements like apathy, fratricide, and so on, to give you the tools to experience a dark story, and it's up to the player from there to create it.

To David Gaider, I agree, and I hope that you continue to write the stories that you want to tell, rather than conforming to some nebulously-defined genre (similarly, I'm not a fan of conforming to what a RPG is and isn't supposed to be).  The primary reason I participated in this thread is simply to highlight that it is partly up to the player to explore themes like fratricide or murder.

Modifié par arcelonious, 01 octobre 2012 - 04:53 .

[David Gaider]

Runningleaf wrote...
It must be usfull feed back. The oppinion of the actuall games seems well distributed, very dark, not dark enough, just right. and what the people consider to be too dark or what might even make them turn away from a game altogether. It may be silly, maybe, but It must have it's uses.

Not so much. Those categories are a way of describing what the game actually is-- they do not determine the content. If they did, that would very much be a case of the tail wagging the dog. If someone says "I want the content to be darker", then that's cool and good feedback (even if we might disagree). If someone says "I want the content to be darker because the Witcher was darker", then that's rather pointless. Dragon Age neither needs nor wants to be the Witcher any more than the Witcher needs or wants to be Dragon Age.

Modifié par David Gaider, 01 octobre 2012 - 05:03 .

[Emzamination]

David Gaider wrote...

Sorry, but I can't help but roll my eyes a little every time this topic comes up.

It's pretty clear that everyone who talks about "dark" as an adjective means something a little different by it-- generally there's some title that is also labeled "dark fantasy" and they declare that, since Dragon Age doesn't match that game thematically, it therefore can't be dark fantasy... since dark fantasy is one thing and one thing only? Never mind that any conversation on the topic reveals that the adjective is open to wild interpretation?

Dragon Age deals with mature themes: slavery, racism, sexuality, the struggle of humanity versus itself. It's not just about good vs. evil. It thus does have dark fantasy elements, but it's also not solely dark fantasy. It has elements of high fantasy as well. We don't need it to fit comfortably into a single box, and I'm not sure why anyone else would.

To me, this is the same kind of pseudo-intellectual exercise as trying to squeeze BioWare's characters into archetypes-- what's the point? At best this is an issue about communicating what the game actually is, but if someone honestly expects us to qualify every description with "it's dark fantasy, but not like x and only because of y, and it's high fantasy, but not like x or x and only because of z" then you're out of your mind. We think the dark fantasy elements are more important, especially to distinguish Dragon Age from the typical high fantasy world mold of D&D, and while YMMV that doesn't change Dragon Age from simply being what it is.

^This post is so beautiful...

Thank you david, you're a giver.