191 réponses à ce sujet

[Eternal Phoenix]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Irrelevant, and a straw man.  

It's not irrelevant or a straw man. Your original statement was practically saying such an event wouldn't be mature or dark. Sorry but such an event would easily belong in a dark fantasy setting and such a topic is a mature topic (what children's games deal with domestic abuse?).

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Dragon Age doesn't "avoid" sexism, they consciously removed it to make a damn point, one entirely lost on you.

In other words it *does* avoid sexism. No point is made avoiding it and you can't say they consciously removed it because the Qunari have a society where women are treated differently so your argument is really invalid. Sexism exists in the DA universe but we just never encounter it in the game which also defeats your later "real life stereotype" argument.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

...and maybe the DA writers would love a bit more rape and wife beating, it'd be a nice touch!

Indeed so why the hostility to my original point? No one said it had to be restricted to women either. Now unless in the DA universe, men and women do not have lust and anger to perform the aforementioned things, such things should then exist unless explictly stated otherwise and considering the men in the City Elf origin forcefully take elves to rape them, I think we can surely say that rape exists in the DA universe and men are mostly the ones performing it. So yeah your argument is invalid when this stuff does exist in the DA universe but was avoided in DA2 whereas Origins had quite a bit of it.

My whole original point was to have more of what Origins offered but also some emotional scenes, for example one where you come across a village that has been destroyed and maybe you discover a survivor telling you about the horrors they experienced but I guess that's not mature enough and skipping such emotional tales would be better suited for an audience who just wants to make bodies explode right?

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 01 octobre 2012 - 05:15 .

[Atalanta]

 I don't think of a mature theme as necessarily "taboo" or "controversial," but rather a concept that someone under the age of 18 probably wouldn't be able to understand (at least not fully) due to a lack of emotional maturity and/or personal experience.

For example, you can't really understand what it feels like to lose someone close to you until it happens. With a lot of games targeted towards the younger group, death isn't usually given any more meaning than a body count or headshot points or whatever - so to me that's an immature way to handle that theme, since it doesn't require emotional maturity or empathy to see a death as a statistic on a scoreboard.
Your average preteen probably isn't going to as touched by situations - the Origin stories (ie the Couslands), Isolde losing Connor, Hawke losing siblings and mother, etc - as an adult would.

The same goes for themes like betrayal, which isn't something you can really get either unless you've been in an intimate (as in emotionally close) relationship with someone.

Some things people tend to think of as taboo I would actually consider immature, as they are sometimes so outlandish and unrealistic that very few people would be able to relate to them.

Anyway, my $.02.

Modifié par Atalanta, 01 octobre 2012 - 05:37 .

[cindercatz]

I agree that Dragon Age is what it is, pretty much, and it earns its "Dark Fantasy" tag well enough, imo. Moreso in the first game, though.

Runningleaf wrote...

I'm not talking about what our characters perceive, I'm talking about what is said.

Who was that sports guy just recently caught for pedifilia? It took years of him getting away with it and people looking the other way before he was punished. Does that me we allow it? No, in part people don't talk about it and any hints are chalked up as misunderstanding what was said. Because it's too disterbing to think a friend does that.

the male origin say's vaughen did the same to an elven servant in his castle last year. No mention of running off with brides. And that his father is away, making him more bold. the guards that come to arrest you are city guards, under the Arl but not the Arls personal guard. It was Vaughen's men, and ones that wanted to join in the behavior that aided him.

I agree the scene is suppossed to show you how bad the elves have, or can have it. and it's too bad that this isn't carried a littled more into the broader game. you're hardly called a knife-ear outside the alianage. And that this is the reason the elves need their own representative. Because getting justice against the powerfull is hard without it. They obviously can't expect justice against the Arls son when the only one they can appeal to is the Arl himself.

I'd say the lord of the land, in a purely feudal system like Fereldan, is the law, so whether he states "Under the authority of so and so" or not, it's pretty self evident. Being told in game, like you found, that it happens "occasionally", and we're talking right out in the open, taking a bride on her wedding day in broad daylight with armed guards and enough troops to control the whole area and contain a riot, is extremely blatant, nothing at all like the hush hush evil of Penn State and it's cover-up by whoever had knowledge of that evil bastard's crimes. Everybody knows about what Vaughn is doing in game. It's no secret and not a huge intellectual shock that he would do it, as the community has suffered very similar (moral) crimes under him and others before. (which I infer, but I don't see how the scenario reads otherwise)

I agree completely with that last paragraph. Various characters will catch themselves, or talk around how to address you, as a city elf, because they know that you represent the Grey Wardens. In that case, your social standing and authority are definitely increased in most others' eyes.

I think it would have helped if we could have gotten back into the alienage sooner. Unfortunately, the city elf is locked out of the alienage during the post-riot stage like everybody else until the plague/slave bit. I went back three or four times to see if they'd let me in yet, first playthrough and all. I wanted to make sure my family hadn't been retaliated against in my absense, and talk to Shianni etc. Also would've been good to get a one on one scene with the Arl as a Warden before he was deposed by Loghain and Howe. I was looking forward to that and was disappointed I never got to have that stare down, at least.

[upsettingshorts]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Irrelevant, and a straw man.  

It's not irrelevant or a straw man. Your original statement was practically saying such an event wouldn't be mature or dark. Sorry but such an event would easily belong in a dark fantasy setting and such a topic is a mature topic (what children's games deal with domestic abuse?).

Which has nothing to do with what you actually said that I called a straw man, which was: "So that sort of stuff didn't happen in real life Medieval Ages (and even today)?"

Now you're just making things up.  

Elton John is dead wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Dragon Age doesn't "avoid" sexism, they consciously removed it to make a damn point, one entirely lost on you.

In other words it *does* avoid sexism.

No.  Someday someone will introduce you to nuance and it will blow your mind.

Elton John is dead wrote...

No point is made avoiding it and you can't say they consciously removed it because the Qunari have a society where women are treated differently so your argument is really invalid.

The Qun is not based in, or inspired by, real life or real life sexism.  The Qunari represent blue/orange morality.  If you had said, "let's have more fictional ethical systems that conflict with our own" you'd have a point.  But you didn't, so you don't.  This is moving the goalposts. 

You'd have scored more points if you brought up Vaughn.  Broadly though, the society of Thedas is not sexist.  As others have stated, there are women in "traditionally male" jobs, women in positions of authority, women have a starring role in both history and key cultural myths.

Elton John is dead wrote...

Sexism exists in the DA universe but we just never encounter it in the game which also defeats your later "real life stereotype" argument.

This makes no sense at all.  The real life stereotype argument was referring to your post.  Which I'm pretty sure I've read, a lot of the sexist threads on the BSN tend to blur together after a while.

Elton John is dead wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

...and maybe the DA writers would love a bit more rape and wife beating, it'd be a nice touch!

Indeed so why the hostility to my original point?

After you learn about nuance the lesson on sarcasm can start, I suppose.  I know sarcasm can be hard to read on the internet but come on man, why would I spend the rest of the post vehemently disagreeing with you only to turn around and agree?  Context clues!  There was even an exclamation point.

Elton John is dead wrote..
 I think we can surely say that rape exists in the DA universe and men are mostly the ones performing it. So yeah your argument is invalid when this stuff does exist in the DA universe but was avoided in DA2 whereas Origins had quite a bit of it.

Rape happens, as the City elf Origin makes clear, but there's a difference between "it happened once in one Origin to demonstrate the spectacularly evilness of Vaughn" and "the culture itself is deeply sexist and we should show it more because it's dark and mature."

Elton John is dead wrote..

I guess that's not mature enough and skipping such emotional tales would be better suited for an audience who just wants to make bodies explode right?

Straw man.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 01 octobre 2012 - 09:30 .

[DarkKnightHolmes]

What's so mature about DA?

[Icinix]

Dark - Events and characters where and whose intentions are less than noble.

Mature - themes that a person with limited life experience may not be able to grasp or understand.


Reading some of these comments though - I must be wrong - Dark and mature is violence and sex apparently.

[LinksOcarina]

to be honest, dark fantasy in the context of Dragon Age has always been a misnomer.

But then again, it has been a misnomer for every game that uses it, because they use the proper context of the term incorrectly, which I believe is supposed to be a more gothic horror-type of world, like Vampire: The Masquerade.

So really, dark fantasy doesn't exist. But I would argue that Dragon Age is one of the few worlds out there in a fantasy setting that does aim for a mature approach in its storytelling. If they wanted to be high fantasy, they would have killed more archdemons. Hell, id argue that Dragon Age II is closer to a "mature" game than Origins is just due to the primary plotline of rising to prominence vs saving the world. In many respects, Origins is typical for the genre, while Dragon Age II was a-typical and fit the context of "mature" vs "high" better.

[Sylvianus]

It has already been said a few times and I repeat. Mature theme, mature approach in a storytelling has nothing to do with human politics VS unnatural things, fantasy plot and saving the world. It is only about your preferences here. No side is supposed to be more mature because of this difference. You could totally have a fantasy story, with archdemon, dragon Grey Wardens, much more serious, much more mature, darker than a story with human politics or just because you can't save the world. That means objectively nothing here. Just preferences, to each its tastes and that's all it is about in this area. You could totally have a story absolutely mature with a plot like saving the world.  DAO seemed more mature to me.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 01 octobre 2012 - 10:26 .

[Wulfram]

DA:O had a fair few examples of sexism, though generally rather mild. In Orzammar, female warriors are rare and disapproved of by some, and male rulers appear to be generally preferred to female ones, though female rulers are possible.
Howe calls F!Cousland Warrior "unique", and is generally a sexist bastard, though of course that just fits in with his alround bastardry.
In Redcliffe, all the women are expected to hide while the men are expected to fight
Also, by all appearance there were no female Templars until Awakening.
And there's a whole bunch of people being surprised that about the Grey Warden being a woman.

The DA:O setting is perhaps less sexist than our modern western cultures, but it's still clearly there in a mild form.

DA2 on the other hand does seem to have made a conscious decision to portray an equal society. Though Hawke is still Hawke rather than Amell

[LinksOcarina]

Wulfram wrote...

DA:O had a fair few examples of sexism, though generally rather mild. In Orzammar, female warriors are rare and disapproved of by some, and male rulers appear to be generally preferred to female ones, though female rulers are possible.
Howe calls F!Cousland Warrior "unique", and is generally a sexist bastard, though of course that just fits in with his alround bastardry.
In Redcliffe, all the women are expected to hide while the men are expected to fight
Also, by all appearance there were no female Templars until Awakening.
And there's a whole bunch of people being surprised that about the Grey Warden being a woman.

The DA:O setting is perhaps less sexist than our modern western cultures, but it's still clearly there in a mild form.

DA2 on the other hand does seem to have made a conscious decision to portray an equal society. Though Hawke is still Hawke rather than Amell

That actually bothered me a bit, because I would expect a degree of sexism to exist in that kind of world. Hell, the Qunari have a regimented system based on sex and status, which you can play around with a lot if you ask me. 

I don't mind if the sexism actually exists, because it does make the world more realistic. As long as it is done tastefully, as in Origins, then it should come back if you ask me.  It should also go both ways as well. Perhaps the women would see men as weak in some aspects, or unfit rulers/warriors in a specific culture? This is a trope that can be played around with. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 01 octobre 2012 - 10:06 .

[upsettingshorts]

LinksOcarina wrote...

That actually bothered me a bit, because I would expect a degree of sexism to exist in that kind of world

I don't mind if the sexism actually exists, because it does make the world more realistic.

/faceplant

Time to give up on this thread.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

David Gaider wrote...

Sorry, but I can't help but roll my eyes a little every time this topic comes up.

People like talking and you* gave us a shiny new DA3 forum section to talk about everything we've already talked about all over again.



*Bioware

[Vandicus]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

DA:O had a fair few examples of sexism, though generally rather mild. In Orzammar, female warriors are rare and disapproved of by some, and male rulers appear to be generally preferred to female ones, though female rulers are possible.
Howe calls F!Cousland Warrior "unique", and is generally a sexist bastard, though of course that just fits in with his alround bastardry.
In Redcliffe, all the women are expected to hide while the men are expected to fight
Also, by all appearance there were no female Templars until Awakening.
And there's a whole bunch of people being surprised that about the Grey Warden being a woman.

The DA:O setting is perhaps less sexist than our modern western cultures, but it's still clearly there in a mild form.

DA2 on the other hand does seem to have made a conscious decision to portray an equal society. Though Hawke is still Hawke rather than Amell

That actually bothered me a bit, because I would expect a degree of sexism to exist in that kind of world. Hell, the Qunari have a regimented system based on sex and status, which you can play around with a lot if you ask me. 

I don't mind if the sexism actually exists, because it does make the world more realistic. As long as it is done tastefully, as in Origins, then it should come back if you ask me.  It should also go both ways as well. Perhaps the women would see men as weak in some aspects, or unfit rulers/warriors in a specific culture? This is a trope that can be played around with. 

Why would anti-female sexism be prevalent in a Matriarchical society? How does that make any sense?

In Tevinter you'd have a point, but in Fereldan or Orlais?

[philippe willaume]

Hello
Maturity does apply as much if not more on how the topic is treated rather than the topic itself.
So you can have a good vs evil:
and if you use detailed characters with complex motivation and value where the lines between right, wrong good evil are blurred and intersect where the player has to justify his characters choice and ideally see the consequences. you will have a mature content.

If you use Harry Potter-esque charters with a Disney depth and motivation where decision regarding consequences is taken away from you, you will have something much more trivial.

DA:0 is more mature because of the questions it asks the player and the consequences it offers.
Siding with the elves or the werewolves or if the anvil of the void should be destroyed or not.

In Da:2 we did not have the option to side withe Qunary, we did not have the option to destroy the idol.
Siding with against or doing a Geralt about the mage has absolutely no consequences that matters.
yes we can destroy Meryl clan but the decision only moral value is they really asked for it and we did what we could and it has no consequence.
Siding with the Qunn or with Kirkwall or being the cause of Kirkwall problem because of your greed is a mature subject. it is just not enough in itself.

phil
.

[hoorayforicecream]

LinksOcarina wrote...

That actually bothered me a bit, because I would expect a degree of sexism to exist in that kind of world. Hell, the Qunari have a regimented system based on sex and status, which you can play around with a lot if you ask me. 

I don't mind if the sexism actually exists, because it does make the world more realistic. As long as it is done tastefully, as in Origins, then it should come back if you ask me.  It should also go both ways as well. Perhaps the women would see men as weak in some aspects, or unfit rulers/warriors in a specific culture? This is a trope that can be played around with. 

I'll just go ahead and quote Plaintiff, who responded to this very point, albeit in a different thread.

Plaintiff wrote...

Why do we "need" sexism to make the game more realistic?

Thedas is not the Middle Ages, it's not our world. It's a world where the dominant religion is a matriarchy, and their most revered religious figure is a female. Women serve in the armed forces and have leadership roles. A lot of their folklore features female heroes. They're equal to men in every sense that's relevant.

Its history is different from ours, which means its society and culture is different from ours. Sexism doesn't make sense in this world. So to say that adding it would make things more "realistic" is nonsense, and it suggests that the people making this comment just want to see sexism for the sake of sexism.

I would like to just point out that the use of the term 'sexism' here is in reference to the "realistic" sexist ideals that we see prevalent in our society and our real history, not Thedasian society or history.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 01 octobre 2012 - 11:19 .

[Masha Potato]

What sort of "tastefully done" DAO sexism are you talking about

[TNT1991]

To be fair, Dragon Age is a lot more "mature" and "dark" compared to other series like Fable (and they're both rated M).

Dragon Age is fine in those categories, imho.

[LinksOcarina]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

That actually bothered me a bit, because I would expect a degree of sexism to exist in that kind of world

I don't mind if the sexism actually exists, because it does make the world more realistic.

/faceplant

Time to give up on this thread.

Did you read the rest of my post, or do you like to cherry pick this much?

[Emzamination]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

That actually bothered me a bit, because I would expect a degree of sexism to exist in that kind of world

I don't mind if the sexism actually exists, because it does make the world more realistic.

/faceplant

Time to give up on this thread.

Did you read the rest of my post, or do you like to cherry pick this much?

Most definitely the latter.

[LinksOcarina]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

That actually bothered me a bit, because I would expect a degree of sexism to exist in that kind of world. Hell, the Qunari have a regimented system based on sex and status, which you can play around with a lot if you ask me. 

I don't mind if the sexism actually exists, because it does make the world more realistic. As long as it is done tastefully, as in Origins, then it should come back if you ask me.  It should also go both ways as well. Perhaps the women would see men as weak in some aspects, or unfit rulers/warriors in a specific culture? This is a trope that can be played around with. 

I'll just go ahead and quote Plaintiff, who responded to this very point, albeit in a different thread.

Plaintiff wrote...

Why do we "need" sexism to make the game more realistic?

Thedas is not the Middle Ages, it's not our world. It's a world where the dominant religion is a matriarchy, and their most revered religious figure is a female. Women serve in the armed forces and have leadership roles. A lot of their folklore features female heroes. They're equal to men in every sense that's relevant.

Its history is different from ours, which means its society and culture is different from ours. Sexism doesn't make sense in this world. So to say that adding it would make things more "realistic" is nonsense, and it suggests that the people making this comment just want to see sexism for the sake of sexism.

I would like to just point out that the use of the term 'sexism' here is in reference to the "realistic" sexist ideals that we see prevalent in our society and our real history, not Thedasian society or history.

Let me clarify, when I use realism in these terms, I mean in the context of making the world more believable instead of a sort of flat world.  It gave the world, and random NPCs character because it showed their own biases or the cultures own bias. Kirkwall as a "free city" can get away with more than others, but to have it not exist at all...that to me doesn't make sense since it was both established and already a part of the lore.  

Also, I don't care if the history is different from ours, and it is actually incorrect to say that sexism doesn't make sense in the world.

Case en point, the Chantry. Chantry mothers are the only ordained leaders of the Chant, while brothers can be ordained but never a grand cleric. And the Qun also has some doctrine similar to this. 

Realistic sexist ideals in our society is not what I was referring to either. In context of the game, it is already there, to cover it up completely would be disengenuous. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 02 octobre 2012 - 12:32 .

[Eternal Phoenix]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Which has nothing to do with what you actually said that I called a straw man, which was: "So that sort of stuff didn't happen in real life Medieval Ages (and even today)?"

Now you're just making things up.  

No, that was an argument. You can't say it's irrelevant when Dragon Age is inspired by the Medieval Ages as are most RPG's set in the past. Unless women are physically stronger or physically equal to men in the DA universe then there's no reason not to ever come across a man beating a woman.

Now since DA hasn't ever claimed that women are physically different it's rather logical to assume that they are similar to women in this universe expecially considering all women are shown with no muscles so that's basically saying men are naturally stronger in the DA universe. Now if a man (such as the one in the City Elf origin) can think of raping a woman, then they can think of beating one too.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

No.  Someday someone will introduce you to nuance and it will blow your mind.

Well since sexism exists in other areas in the DA universe, yes, it was deliberately avoided.

Upsettingshorts wrote...
The Qun is not based in, or inspired by, real life or real life sexism.  The Qunari represent blue/orange morality.  If you had said, "let's have more fictional ethical systems that conflict with our own" you'd have a point.  But you didn't, so you don't.  This is moving the goalposts. 

No, you're trying to change the original point. Antiva is the same in having different views of women regarding them as weaker than men and more delicate. Now how is saying "let's have more fictional ethical systems that conflict with our own" different from saying "I want to see sexism in whatever form in the new DA"?

Upsettingshorts wrote...
You'd have scored more points if you brought up Vaughn.  Broadly though, the society of Thedas is not sexist.  As others have stated, there are women in "traditionally male" jobs, women in positions of authority, women have a starring role in both history and key cultural myths.

And the majority of women being prostitutes (yes there are men too but fewer) so that says something by itself.

Upsettingshorts wrote...
This makes no sense at all.  The real life stereotype argument was referring to your post.  Which I'm pretty sure I've read, a lot of the sexist threads on the BSN tend to blur together after a while.

You are still missing my point entirely.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

After you learn about nuance the lesson on sarcasm can start, I suppose.  I know sarcasm can be hard to read on the internet but come on man, why would I spend the rest of the post vehemently disagreeing with you only to turn around and agree?  Context clues!  There was even an exclamation point.

Then take a note: sarcasm doesn't work well on the internet and can't be recognized in a post largely contradicting itself at several times. I'm not even sure if I can take you seriously anymore but I find it hard to understand the point you're even trying to make now. It's possibly you're still trying to support your debunked original claim but I'm not sure anymore...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Rape happens, as the City elf Origin makes clear, but there's a difference between "it happened once in one Origin to demonstrate the spectacularly evilness of Vaughn" and "the culture itself is deeply sexist and we should show it more because it's dark and mature."

Clearly you forgot the males who followed Vaughn. Now please stop with this argument. The fact is is that all rapes (as far as I know) shown or mentioned in Origins had female victims (including Leliana) which speaks volumes. I never claimed the culture is "deeply sexist" so now you're just making things up or assumptions based on your misunderstanding of my point.

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Straw man.

Nope. Good going at ignoring my other comments about just wanting DA3 to be more like Origins in terms of content though (and that means I want DA3 to be like in Origins in terms of how it handled sexism which is non-existent in DA2).

I'm done with this argument. It's clear that you just want to argue for the sakeof arguing and have utterly missed my entire point and argued on your wrong interpretation of my original message. Your comment above saying I want "deep sexism" shows you misunderstood my post.

Good day.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 02 octobre 2012 - 01:18 .

[Eternal Phoenix]

LinksOcarina wrote...
I don't mind if the sexism actually exists, because it does make the world more realistic. As long as it is done tastefully, as in Origins, then it should come back if you ask me.  It should also go both ways as well. Perhaps the women would see men as weak in some aspects, or unfit rulers/warriors in a specific culture? This is a trope that can be played around with. 

Aye. Another point Upsettingshorts ignores. In Haven, the priests are males and view women priests as blasphemous. Likely women didn't have the same role in their "tradition" based society. Meanwhile in the rest of Thedas, women serve as priests and men don't and I do recall some female characters in both DA games taking a bash at men. So sexism can exist in the DA universe and it can exist on both sides. I think Upsettingshorts just has a problem with sexism and thought I wanted DA3 to be heavily sexist, I don't.

There are few games which tackle sexism nowadays so it would be good to see a few games that do tackle sexism in a mature way, that doesn't mean they can't have strong female characters.

Well that's me finished in this thread.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 02 octobre 2012 - 01:16 .

[upsettingshorts]

Emzamination wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

That actually bothered me a bit, because I would expect a degree of sexism to exist in that kind of world

I don't mind if the sexism actually exists, because it does make the world more realistic.

/faceplant

Time to give up on this thread.

Did you read the rest of my post, or do you like to cherry pick this much?

Most definitely the latter.

I read the whole post.  But I do like cherry picking the parts that claim sexism is required for "realism," though, as I'm already tired of hearing that.  It is, and pulling punches would be pointless at this stage, a load of crap and anyone advancing it ought be ashamed of themselves.

As for Elton John is dead here, I don't even know where to begin.  I don't know whether to laugh or cry at his crippling lack of self awareness, the puzzling concept of "deep sexism", responding to an accusation of a strawman argument by implying a strawman is a kind of argument, and the hypocrisy of accusing me of having an inconsistent position.  Basically a lost cause to write off.

For that matter, support from Emzam in any argument might as well be an albatross as far as your legitimacy goes.  She agreed with me in a thread before and I was horrified and confused, like I had been transported into another discussion where she had been saying something else and I had made a different post entirely.  It was weird and gave me a headache.  But then her rhetoric is dazzling in its incomprehensibility so maybe I shouldn't be surprised.

But you guys can start a club where things mean whatever you want them to mean (especially "dark" and "mature," we can throw in "sexism" and "deep sexism" too), arguments follow logical lines that only you can see, and your goalposts are propelled all over the place by engines of their own, fueled by the frustrations of other posters trying to follow your meandering, inconsistent, and in Emzam's case curiously worded ramblings.

Enjoy the thread!

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 octobre 2012 - 01:30 .

[LinksOcarina]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

That actually bothered me a bit, because I would expect a degree of sexism to exist in that kind of world

I don't mind if the sexism actually exists, because it does make the world more realistic.

/faceplant

Time to give up on this thread.

Did you read the rest of my post, or do you like to cherry pick this much?

Most definitely the latter.

I read the whole post.  But I do like cherry picking the parts that claim sexism is required for "realism," though, as I'm already tired of hearing that.  It is, and pulling punches would be pointless at this stage, a load of crap and anyone advancing it ought be ashamed of themselves.

As for Elton John is dead here, I don't even know where to begin.  I don't know whether to laugh or cry at his crippling lack of self awareness, the puzzling concept of "deep sexism", responding to an accusation of a strawman argument by implying a strawman is a kind of argument, and the hypocrisy of accusing me of having an inconsistent position.  Basically a lost cause to write off.

For that matter, support from Emzam in any argument might as well be an albatross as far as your legitimacy goes.  She agreed with me in a thread before and I was horrified and confused, like I had been transported into another discussion where she had been saying something else and I had made a different post entirely.  It was weird and gave me a headache.  But then her rhetoric is dazzling in its incomprehensibility so maybe I shouldn't be surprised.

But you guys can start a club where things mean whatever you want them to mean (especially "dark" and "mature," we can throw in "sexism" and "deep sexism" too), arguments follow logical lines that only you can see, and your goalposts are propelled all over the place by engines of their own, fueled by the frustrations of other posters trying to follow your meandering, inconsistent, and in Emzam's case curiously worded ramblings.

Enjoy the thread!

I made my peace earlier, and clarified where necessary on what I was refering to. If you are not satisfied, it's not my job to change your mind on what I felt, so move on as you said, i'm not here to debate anything anymore because most of the people on this board are like me, stubborn enough to get venomous after listening to stupid people.  But I have no shame for seeing it as something of merit when done appropriately. Call me sexist or a fool or whatever you like.

I don't really care. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 02 octobre 2012 - 01:43 .

[Sejborg]

I think that Dragon Age has alot of elements you can point out and say: "that's why it is mature, and that is why it is dark and gritty".

But for me, especially in DA2, alot of those elements didn't leave an imprint on me. It was quickly onward with the over the top silly combat, then have silly banter (often some sexual reference, and Merrill not getting it), and just the overall lighthearted presentation of Kirkwall. Imagine if it was raining all the time instead of sunshine. What if the walls and buildings where dirty and there was trash scattered around?

Everything from the artstyle, to combat animation, to banter, to music and so on contradicted the mature and the dark elements in the game, and somehow it ended up as if the target audience wasn't mature. Like the movie Jumanji. Everytime something scary happens it is quickly followed up with something to laugh at.

I would prefer if everything in the game from art, music, story and gameplay all cooperated to give me a mature, dark and gritty game.

Modifié par Sejborg, 02 octobre 2012 - 01:55 .