191 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvianus]

The Hierophant wrote...

Wasn't the issue of the lack of sexism in Thedas explained by Leliana in her Aveline story?

Orlais, not Thedas. And for me, her message wasn't " sexism doesn't exist anymore " but " women's situation is far better than before " Now in Orlais, women and men can become chevaliers ( or whatever their name in english ) thanks to Aveline. Chevaliers are still allowed to rape though. We don't know about the other countries, but I think that Ferelden is where there is more freedom ( about many things ) from what I read in the codex.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 02 octobre 2012 - 05:39 .

[Vilegrim]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

/tongueInCheek

Isn't a setting where sexism isn't an issue an innately more mature one?


Mmmm, Can of worms.

if it is avoiding raising prejudice as a topic no, if it's a case of 'black and white are so busy hating green they have none left for each other' then that can work fine.

[ShadyKat]

Why does everything have to be dark fantasy, these days? I'd prefer high fantasy, with some dark themes. DA3 doesn't have to be like the Witcher series. It needs to strive to be it's own series. ME1 was based more off cheesy 70's - 80's sci-fi, and fans loved it. When it tried to get darker and grittier in ME2, it turned a lot of fans off. Some times being a little cheesy is good. The series could use a little more tongue and cheek humor, and not take itself too seriously.

[Sylvianus]

M2 darker and grittier than M1 ? Can you elaborate ?

[Wulfram]

I think ME2 was grittier, but not really darker. It was in a seedier part of the galaxy, and put you working with dodgier people. And it had less of the clean traditional sci-fi aesthetic.

But most of the darker stuff was actually already there in ME1, and possibly made worse by the contrast to the aesthetic and apparent niceness - corruption on the Citadel is in someways worse than on a lawless backwater like Omega. While ME2 still allowed you to get through the game by playing the hero and delivering Picard speeches if you wanted.

[Runningleaf]

Sylvianus wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Wasn't the issue of the lack of sexism in Thedas explained by Leliana in her Aveline story?

Orlais, not Thedas. And for me, her message wasn't " sexism doesn't exist anymore " but " women's situation is far better than before " Now in Orlais, women and men can become chevaliers ( or whatever their name in english ) thanks to Aveline. Chevaliers are still allowed to rape though. We don't know about the other countries, but I think that Ferelden is where there is more freedom ( about many things ) from what I read in the codex.

I think rape is a different issue than sexism. It seems more a class imbalace thing in Orlais.

[Vilegrim]

Sylvianus wrote...

M2 darker and grittier than M1 ? Can you elaborate ?

ME2 made the nastiness more obvious, it stopped implying the specism and started showing it, but it wasn't actually 'darker' you where in the shadows and filth from the start rather than being able to ignore them.

[waouh]

the history from the "sexism made in orlais" is in the past... In ferelden, antivan and in all thedas in the past it's sexism but it's orlais have to take a new position politique for the winen in first after the other country take this position

[waouh]

And in the power in orlais is "l'imperatrice celene" but ferelden it's king , after in kirkwall it's a vicomte not a vicomtesse

[Bob Garbage]

there is literally blood and gore everywhere in origins. everywhere. without even getting into the story, it's pretty common to be surrounded by headless and gored corpses. so ya it's totally sunshine and good times.

[berelinde]

Bob Garbage wrote...

there is literally blood and gore everywhere in origins. everywhere. without even getting into the story, it's pretty common to be surrounded by headless and gored corpses. so ya it's totally sunshine and good times.

Until you tell your dog to lick the blood off your face.

I'm not complaining. It's funny, in a twisted kind of way.

[Overlord_Mephist]

I assume this sentiment of "not dark/mature enough" is a product of the evergrowing fetish for the disgusting/disturbing/@#%#ed up that seems to pervade the internet. Nobody will be happy unless there are sexist rapist wifebeater prostitutes, and then they will want more. Though I don't remember rape or sexism to ever be a requirement for anything to be "dark" or "mature".

Personally nothing kills my gaming mood like rape(crazy I know!).

[sully.nathan]

bob_20000 wrote...

Runningleaf wrote...

What "darker aspects of human nature"? We have cruelty, rape, fratricide, betrayal of several flavors, torture, all kinds of greed, vengence. Not so much burning lust leading to bad things. oh alcoholism.

I mean, not on the protagonists part, unless you put it there, which you can.

I mean darker aspects of human nature should be in there MORE. I'm not saying 'more of the same' I'm saying 'A LOT more of the same'.
Make the themes as prominent as they are in 'The Witcher' is what I'm saying.

This is what i'm talking about because after playing the Witcher 2 I compared it with Origins. The Witcher 2 sisn't shy away from uncomfortable topics or mature themes, but Dragon Age just ignores it and I wish they would focus on it more than they already have.

Modifié par sully.nathan, 03 octobre 2012 - 01:37 .

[Direwolf0294]

Personally, I'd like to see the game go a bit more in-depth with certain taboo subjects rather than mentioning them and then pushing them to the side. An example I can think of would be the city elf origin story in DA:O. Your cousin, Shianni, is raped and if you're playing a female character you're almost raped to. I'd consider this a pretty big deal that deserves further follow up and exploration, but the game quickly shoves it to the side and forgets it even happens. Once the origin is done with it's not something that's ever really brought up again and even within the origin it's not something that's ever really talked about. That sort of cheapens the whole thing. It feels like it was thrown in just for the sake of saying "look how dark and mature this game is". The series suffers this other times as well. Really horrific events that are never fully explored or talked about and seem to only exist for the sake of making the game seem darker.

Dragon Age treats a lot of things in a mature fashion, but sometimes it feels like it treats the violence and sex in an off-handed, slight immature way. Like the very fact that it simply exists means it's dark/mature and it never needs to be explored.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

/tongueInCheek

Isn't a setting where sexism isn't an issue an innately more mature one?


Mmmm, Can of worms.

By that logic, the omition of racism, violence, greed and any other kind of hurtful human elements make a mature setting.

So you're essentially saying the Teletubbies is the most mature setting to ever bless TV.

[Icinix]

Vandicus wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

/tongueInCheek

Isn't a setting where sexism isn't an issue an innately more mature one?


Mmmm, Can of worms.

Well, see the rating systems for video games is basically backwards. This is for a very important reason, but its still backwards, but people use it as a measuring stick of maturity anyways.

A setting where, all else being equal, the denizens are not sexist, is one with more mature characters than a setting where the characters are sexist. Likewise a setting where people solve their problems without violence and lacking in racism would be more mature than one without those things.

However the more mature the characters of a setting are the more likely it is to receive a PG rating, and the more immature the more likely they are to receive an M rating. That's because the video game rating system is supposed to be a guideline for what maturity level the player should have. The idea is to keep younger folks from seeing immature behavior and emulating it.  Unfortunately some people completely miss this, and come to the conclusion that maturity is equivalent to these things that are not included in "less mature" video games. This is partially where the idea that vulgarity and violence equate to maturity comes from.

This may be one of the most intelligent posts I've ever read on these forums.

Good show.

[Overlord_Mephist]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

/tongueInCheek

Isn't a setting where sexism isn't an issue an innately more mature one?


Mmmm, Can of worms.

I thought it was funny, even if no one is getting it.

[waouh]

I'm a special boy and i say... the women take the power!!! And a boy...good bye!!!

[upsettingshorts]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

/tongueInCheek

Isn't a setting where sexism isn't an issue an innately more mature one?


Mmmm, Can of worms.

By that logic, the omition of racism, violence, greed and any other kind of hurtful human elements make a mature setting.

So you're essentially saying the Teletubbies is the most mature setting to ever bless TV.

Read Vandicus' post.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 octobre 2012 - 08:12 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

By that logic, the omition of racism, violence, greed and any other kind of hurtful human elements make a mature setting.

So you're essentially saying the Teletubbies is the most mature setting to ever bless TV.

Actually, my post was more tongue in cheek, but "by my logic" the idea that a civilization had progressed to a point where sexism no longer was an issue was probably a more mature civilization.

It's not the "omission of sexism" but rather "the evolution beyond sexism."


Do you disagree, or do you think that a society that has an inherent power struggle based purely on sexual characteristics is a better one?  Though I suppose I am imposing my bias that a more mature society is probably a "better" one.

I thought it was funny, even if no one is getting it.

Some people did

[Dave of Canada]

I'd classify mature as the way they handle the topics, anything can be classified as mature based on how it's handled.

I'd classify dark as dealing with realistic events in... well, dark fashion. People die, suffer and it's not sunshine and roses. The difference between a darker story and a children's cartoon is the hero can lose or it deals with the consequences of the hero's actions, rather than just praising them for saving the world.

Though they're both subjective terms, I felt it necessary to add my totally useless input.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 03 octobre 2012 - 08:18 .

[SpunkyMonkey]

Direwolf0294 wrote...

Personally, I'd like to see the game go a bit more in-depth with certain taboo subjects rather than mentioning them and then pushing them to the side. An example I can think of would be the city elf origin story in DA:O. Your cousin, Shianni, is raped and if you're playing a female character you're almost raped to. I'd consider this a pretty big deal that deserves further follow up and exploration, but the game quickly shoves it to the side and forgets it even happens. Once the origin is done with it's not something that's ever really brought up again and even within the origin it's not something that's ever really talked about. That sort of cheapens the whole thing. It feels like it was thrown in just for the sake of saying "look how dark and mature this game is". The series suffers this other times as well. Really horrific events that are never fully explored or talked about and seem to only exist for the sake of making the game seem darker.

Dragon Age treats a lot of things in a mature fashion, but sometimes it feels like it treats the violence and sex in an off-handed, slight immature way. Like the very fact that it simply exists means it's dark/mature and it never needs to be explored.

I'm not sure subjects such as rape should feature heavily in games to be honest. I know it will add emotional weight to the experience, but these are touchy issues which could actually detract from the experience.

Also, if I was faced with the prospect of saving the world from armies of Darkspawn and Dragon-Gods I wouldn't really give a toss if someone had been raped, there's bigger concerns and if they still live then they can hold a blade against the coming threat. Faffing about with every person who'd been raped in a medival world with a plethora of evils just wouldn't be something I see a hero of the people having time for.

Having said that, maybe if it was introduced early doors when you're still a rubbing rag nobody then it may work.

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 03 octobre 2012 - 10:02 .

[robertthebard]

Vandicus wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

/tongueInCheek

Isn't a setting where sexism isn't an issue an innately more mature one?


Mmmm, Can of worms.

Well, see the rating systems for video games is basically backwards. This is for a very important reason, but its still backwards, but people use it as a measuring stick of maturity anyways.

A setting where, all else being equal, the denizens are not sexist, is one with more mature characters than a setting where the characters are sexist. Likewise a setting where people solve their problems without violence and lacking in racism would be more mature than one without those things.

However the more mature the characters of a setting are the more likely it is to receive a PG rating, and the more immature the more likely they are to receive an M rating. That's because the video game rating system is supposed to be a guideline for what maturity level the player should have. The idea is to keep younger folks from seeing immature behavior and emulating it.  Unfortunately some people completely miss this, and come to the conclusion that maturity is equivalent to these things that are not included in "less mature" video games. This is partially where the idea that vulgarity and violence equate to maturity comes from.

Disregard this post.  The ESRB exists primarily as a kneejerk reaction to the original Mortal Kombat's finishing moves.  Nothing innately sexist, or mature/immature about them.  It was "OMG, my kids might see somebody get their spine ripped out"...

ESRB Site

The article wrote...

Mission
To empower consumers, especially parents, with the ability to make informed decisions about the age-appropriateness of video games and mobile apps while also holding the video game industry accountable for responsible marketing practices.

It's just like the ratings system for language on music CD's:  OMG, I shouldn't have to monitor what my kids are doing, there should be a government agency to do it for me".

[astreqwerty]

there is porn aplenty in the internetz if thats what you are looking for....i am all for better romance scenes but they dont need to be soft core for me to enjoy..also the tone in dragon age is just perfect for my tastes..it tackles very controversial issues with both tactful humour and ambiguity...

also one more word: Hespith (just one of numerous dark examples in the series)

Modifié par astreqwerty, 03 octobre 2012 - 08:57 .

[joshko]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

By that logic, the omition of racism, violence, greed and any other kind of hurtful human elements make a mature setting.

So you're essentially saying the Teletubbies is the most mature setting to ever bless TV.

Actually, my post was more tongue in cheek, but "by my logic" the idea that a civilization had progressed to a point where sexism no longer was an issue was probably a more mature civilization.

It's not the "omission of sexism" but rather "the evolution beyond sexism."


Do you disagree, or do you think that a society that has an inherent power struggle based purely on sexual characteristics is a better one?  Though I suppose I am imposing my bias that a more mature society is probably a "better" one.

I thought it was funny, even if no one is getting it.

Some people did

Psh,  who mature society? We would get things done, and efficiently deal with most issues that we run into. Preposterous I say!

But let me ask you, do you think including a NPC, or allowing the PC to be, a character who is a nihilist, narcissist, hedonist, and/or a sociopath adds to the inherent immaturity of a game? Or is it how the people play it that determines it.
Also would you say that it is appropriate to allow the PC to have some of these unpleasant qualities, or is it something that should be avoided?

For the record I'm not talking about stealing some little girl's sweetroll here. I mean actually having the option to do despicable and/or politically incorrect things simply for the sake of Role Play.