191 réponses à ce sujet

[Gibb_Shepard]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

By that logic, the omition of racism, violence, greed and any other kind of hurtful human elements make a mature setting.

So you're essentially saying the Teletubbies is the most mature setting to ever bless TV.

Actually, my post was more tongue in cheek, but "by my logic" the idea that a civilization had progressed to a point where sexism no longer was an issue was probably a more mature civilization.

It's not the "omission of sexism" but rather "the evolution beyond sexism."


Do you disagree, or do you think that a society that has an inherent power struggle based purely on sexual characteristics is a better one?  Though I suppose I am imposing my bias that a more mature society is probably a "better" one.

I knew you weren't entirely serious by that comment, i was just pointing out the ramifications of such logic. And the logic line still dictates that the Teletubbies is the most mature setting in your opinion. An idyllic society with inhabitants that have no qualms with eachother. Every children's show depicts a better society than ours, so by your definition of mature they're the most mature of shows.The prime-time "adult" shows (Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones etc.), however, are the most immature.

Hmmmm... You should appeal to the ESRB and argue semantics.

[Allan Schumacher]

robertthebard wrote...

Disregard this post.  The ESRB exists primarily as a kneejerk reaction to the original Mortal Kombat's finishing moves.  Nothing innately sexist, or mature/immature about them.  It was "OMG, my kids might see somebody get their spine ripped out"...

ESRB Site

The article wrote...

Mission
To empower consumers, especially parents, with the ability to make informed decisions about the age-appropriateness of video games and mobile apps while also holding the video game industry accountable for responsible marketing practices.

It's just like the ratings system for language on music CD's:  OMG, I shouldn't have to monitor what my kids are doing, there should be a government agency to do it for me".

I don't think Vandicus' statement is that the mandate of the ESRB is intrinsically immature, but rather the irony of elements that get classified based upon maturity are arguably less mature.  I don't think it's an argument that many games rated "M for Mature" are really particularly mature games.  Unless you look at it from the standpoint that recognizing that said game is immature requires a mature viewpoint (i.e. a younger child may not make this association and feel that what he is seeing on screen is reflective of reality).

You are right that the ESRB manifested itself out of the Mortal Kombat craze.

[cindercatz]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Right.

edit: Maria's link: http://www.straightd...he-local-brides
It didn't link in the quote.

That's interesting. I don't see how simply writing off all the actual accounts that article dismisses offhand as .. this is rather disgusting .. male fantasy (seeing as the accounts are of abuse and dominance by local lords to the pure detriment of any and all given victims including husbands, the accounts the article mentions being mostly from the victims' and critics' points of view), makes any sense whatsoever. It reeks of modern social bias. We don't allow leaders to get away with that sort of crime (where there's any way to enforce punishment), but feudal lords with absolute tyranny over their peasantry, where often even the thought of opposition to a leader's any whim would be considered treasonous and punishable by death, provable by torture, wouldn't have that concern. And then there's the practice of simply anulling another man's marriage, taking his property, and/or taking his wife or marrying her off to another at the feudal monarch's decision, which is similarly oppressive.

I tend to go with the common belief of the fifteenth century and earlier that it actually happened, whether expressly codified or not. The threat of such, according to the article I linked below, was implied in certain marriage taxes at the time.

Then there's the disclaimer that goes more to what I was discussing at the end of the article you linked:
"None of this is to suggest that men in power didn't or don't use their positions to extort sex from women. But since when did some creep with a sword (gun, fancy office, drill sergeant's stripes) figure he needed a law to justify rape? "

Evil men in power are just as evil as those out, and given ultimate power over their peers, they will and have done things very much like what happened in the city elf origin, whether codified or not. It's not fantasy, and people throughout history don't tend to be particularly humanistic.

And here's the other article from the same quick wiki search, which accepts the proof caveat, but also gives a lot more citation to what actually went on in Europe and elsewhere:
http://www.fibri.de/jus/arthbes.htm

Regardless, I wasn't arguing about what evil should or shouldn't be represented in the game, or what the codified law is in Thedas or ever was in Europe, only that the instance in the city elf origin and the related context is there to frame the relationship of the elves against the human nobility. Vaughn is by no means a one off, as I can see it. That doesn't mean that every human noble is an evil bastard like he is, but it does infer that the system in general allows for it, and that institutional racism and abuse are in place in Fereldan at the start of DA:O. My original point in my first post was simply that DA:O is much darker than DA2, that Dragon Age should qualify for the "Dark Fantasy" moniker, and that DA:O dealt with dark subject matter in a much more mature fashion than DA2. I used the origins, all of them, to do that.

There is a greater societal context present in DA:O, decisions are more complex and personally difficult, and nobody is given an out for their personal atrocities. Vaughn's an evil bastard in power, end of story. He doesn't have some lyrium artifact to fall back on and say "The Devil made me do it." DA2, in contrast, doesn't address nearly as many societal problems or as much real human corruption, doesn't treat personal compromise in a mature way (for the most part), and does give most corruption and abuse we do see an out in the form of a magic evil artifact. I was only making a point of contrast.

tl;dr: Read the last paragraph.

Also, I was never particularly comfortable having to defend the presense of something so personally offensive in the game and why it was there in the first place, though I believe it serves a greater purpose in context. So given that apparent fixation in the thread with general sexism and sexual violence , I'm done with the discussion for now.

Modifié par cindercatz, 06 octobre 2012 - 05:34 .

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

Gabey5 wrote...

Dragon age was never dark fantasy.

I agree with you completely. It's high fantasy with mature themes and dark elements, but it's not mercilessly grim like most dark/ low fantasy.

[XCelfa]

Eh, I think Leandra being dismembered and reanimated was pretty dark.

[StarcloudSWG]

 "Mature" when it comes to storytelling is more about how people would *really* react given a situation. Look at Lothering; the very first merchant you come across is taking a profit at the expense of people who have lost a lot. He has a point in that he has a limited stock of supplies, but the refugees and the Sister also have a point in that the refugees can't *afford* his prices.

That's a very human reaction. That's a mature treatment of the topic.

And then there's the way Loghain pulled his forces out of the fight in the beginning. It looked like a betrayal... and at one level it was, but it was also Loghain preserving the army for the much harder fight to come. He even tells you as much if you ask, that there was much more going on than just what you saw. In the 'return to ostagar' DLC you even come across letters hinting that there was a political marriage in the offering between Orlais and Ferelden, something that would have meant more chaos in Ferelden later.

Again, a very human response.

"Dark" means it touches on the darker sides of the psyche. Horror, mostly, in a variety of forms. In DA:O it was mostly body horror with the Darkspawn and how they 'reproduce'. Racism. Hate. Zealotry and fanaticism.

"Fantasy" means there are fantastic elements that do not appear in our world. Magic, Lyrium, monsters, non-human races.

DA:O and DA 2 both 'fit'. DA:O is 'darker' than DA 2, but DA 2 still has its dark elements. Slavery, more racism, fanaticism, zealotry.

And when it comes to fairy-tale endings... the original ending of Cinderella has the stepsisters and stepmother locked in red-hot iron boots to dance their lives away.

Modifié par StarcloudSWG, 11 octobre 2012 - 04:42 .

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

XCelfa wrote...

Eh, I think Leandra being dismembered and reanimated was pretty dark.

That part of the game lent a downright gothic horror element to the game.

[shirespartan]

needs more swearing and more plowing like witcher 2 ;x

[hobbit of the shire]

I know what's NOT dark and mature. Hawke says of Gamlen to his daughter.... "He's not very trustworthy. And he smells." Yeah, just what my Champion ought to say. My uncle is smelly.

Mature: themes that are not black and white. Where morality isn't well-defined. Concerning complex issues and in general issues of concern to adults. What happens in RL without the kid filter.

Dark: again, issues that are not black and white. Where things are not veiled with pretty roses and lace. Issues with death, murder, assault, plague, apocalypse, the secretive and ugly side of things. Inquisition. The real lives of knights (they are not holy NWN Casavir-types in shining armor).

[marshalleck]

XCelfa wrote...

Eh, I think Leandra being dismembered and reanimated was pretty dark.

That was stupid and comical, anything but dark.

Oh no, not Frankenmom! So dark!

Modifié par marshalleck, 12 octobre 2012 - 03:43 .

[Ridwan]

Blargh, anyone else feel like the word "mature" is being abused here?

[Sejborg]

marshalleck wrote...

XCelfa wrote...

Eh, I think Leandra being dismembered and reanimated was pretty dark.

That was stupid and comical, anything but dark.

Oh no, not Frankenmom! So dark!

Yeah. I agree. The vibes it gave me was less of 'Mary Shelley's Frankenstein' and more of 'Frankenhooker'. 

[Allan Schumacher]

I tend to go with the common belief of the fifteenth century and earlier that it actually happened, whether expressly codified or not. The threat of such, according to the article I linked below, was implied in certain marriage taxes at the time.

You had mentioned it was a legal right in your original post, which would require it to be codified. That some men would rape slaves (which serfs pretty much were) is not a particularly shocking thing.

Snopes had an interesting article about it, and how resistance to the idea increased the farther a lord was from being divine (i.e. pretty much anyone of non-Royal blood with a lineage to a king). Since most lords are just granted a title, they are not typically considered divine.

[cindercatz]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I tend to go with the common belief of the fifteenth century and earlier that it actually happened, whether expressly codified or not. The threat of such, according to the article I linked below, was implied in certain marriage taxes at the time.

You had mentioned it was a legal right in your original post, which would require it to be codified. That some men would rape slaves (which serfs pretty much were) is not a particularly shocking thing.

Snopes had an interesting article about it, and how resistance to the idea increased the farther a lord was from being divine (i.e. pretty much anyone of non-Royal blood with a lineage to a king). Since most lords are just granted a title, they are not typically considered divine.

That's a very interesting article. And thanks for chiming in. The line of reasoning behind it explains pretty clearly why it would be allowed to a point among the nobility, and also goes to why the royal line of succession was (and would be in Ferelden) favored and supported by so many, beyond simple maintenance of order, and speaks to the oppressive use of the practice.

I did mention the "legal right" in the first post, but I was corrected on Vaughn's assertion (or lack thereof) of it very quickly. I just flat misremembered the particular detail of the scene. Honestly, the first thing I thought about when it happened in game was "Braveheart", then "Tristan & Isolde" and "Rob Roy", though they're less analogous (also: movies, and one based on a play). The disagreement over legality beyond that hinges on how one would define "legal". In the case of a purely feudal system where the lord is the law personified and not subject to impartial justice, excepting declaration of his or her superior lord, I don't know that codification is necessarily required for a lord's claim.

For those that haven't read the linked article yet, the Wendy Doniger excerpt at the conclusion of that article does a much better job of clearly stating the gist of what I was arguing (regards history) than I have in this thread:

 Surely the use of political power to secure sexual favors is ancient and widespread. The droit du seigneur in the broadest sense - political pressure for sexual favors, what we now call sexual harrassment - must have been invoked informally all the time but was formalized in the myths as if it were a kind of unofficial law or right, one that was, from the start, intolerable. It may never, or seldom, have been technically legal, but it was not "just a myth".  

I've actually learned a few things, historical details, as a result of this discussion, that article and the one I linked earlier, so it's definitely been worthwhile, even where it's definitely been personally uncomfortable.

Sejborg wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

XCelfa wrote...

Eh, I think Leandra being dismembered and reanimated was pretty dark.

That was stupid and comical, anything but dark.

Oh no, not Frankenmom! So dark!

Yeah. I agree. The vibes it gave me was less of 'Mary Shelley's Frankenstein' and more of 'Frankenhooker'.

... What's dark and more mature in its handling about that whole questline is not the way in which Hawke's mom died or what happened to her body afterward, but that it was a result of a serial killing, and a killer that your Hawke may or may not have been able to stop, may or may not have been able to identify. It's crushing. What's immature about that whole questline is that we're never shown the full consequences that should have played out afterwards. There is very little impact in the following storyline.

Annnd... I'm out.

Modifié par cindercatz, 13 octobre 2012 - 07:06 .